vjek said:Global chat channels have been confirmed, Syrif, (at least, as much as anything can be, at this point, years from launch) so, regardless, if that remains true, there will be a global auction channel, and thus, regional auction houses will be ~meaningless.
Wonder if they have given a definition of "global". What I am wondering is if global means "world-wide" or if it means continent-wide.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Kalok said: Wonder if they have given a definition of "global". What I am wondering is if global means "world-wide" or if it means continent-wide.
Global usually refers to 'server wide'.
I agree.... Usually. However, they have also said that they prefer to keep thingss "local", such is the case for things like auction houses, so I am wondering if their definition might be a bit different.
ltdabes said:Does anyone remember the great joy of doing NOTHING but sitting in East Commons Auctioning Gear, OOC'ing for teleportations, and arranging groups.
Any thoughts on a zone like this in Pantheon? not really disignated by the developers as a trade zone, but heavily agreed upon by the community to perform commerce, and general hangout?
I loved meeting new people, and learning new tricks this way.
Let me know your guys thoughts.
I LOOOOOOOOOOVED the barter / trade aspect of EC tunnel in EQ...chilling with my Wizzy in EC tunnel selling loot and ports.... that was a wonderful way to encourage community interaction, make money and meet people! :)
Raidan said:@Dorotea
I really think it's how you view "Social." You definitely could interact with more people on a global chat channel with ease, but I also feel that it's more a preference; although, if it existed, many would use which would lessen other forms of communication (since the default most likely would become the /global chat). Yes, you can /leave the channel, which I most often would, but, I view it similar to newer communication techniques like social media. People are definitely more "connected" but I feel mainly that the connections are much less meaningful. So, it's probably more social preference than anything. I prefer more in-person, local community type interactions versus global interactions (so even a /shout /ooc versus a /global chat). And for Pantheon, I just feel that the community would benefit without it existing. Not a dealbreaker either way for me though.
Back on point though with this thread - see my previous post.
This hits it right on the head.
Resist the urge to use global anything in this game. If the last 10 years of MMO failures have taught us anything it is that dry, impersonal LFG windows and "dungeon finders" etc have decreased menaingful player interaction, not increased it. Finding a group shouldn't be as easy as logging in for 2 minutes, spamming a global and getting a random goon squad together for a quick loot run. That kind of stuff destroys Pantheon and stands against everything the devs have explicitly stated they want to do.
Social media like Faceobook, as raidan stated, have not increased meaningful interactions. It has produced vain, saccharine visages of interactions, and we don't want to go that way with global, "social media" chat channels.
We want to encourage local, person to person, group to group holistic interaction that evolves out of players interacting in small parts of the world that are meaningful and impactful to them. These interactions are what give personality and soul to connections and makes that special sauce for a game like classic EQ.
It's what you take from the players sometimes, not what you give them. Give them too much and they will destory a game. Give them just enough and they will make do and improvise and even thank you for it later.
Don't go the easy route here.
((Resist the urge to use global anything in this game. If the last 10 years of MMO failures have taught us anything it is that dry, impersonal LFG windows and "dungeon finders" etc have decreased menaingful player interaction, not increased it. Finding a group shouldn't be as easy as logging in for 2 minutes, spamming a global and getting a random goon squad together for a quick loot run. That kind of stuff destroys Pantheon and stands against everything the devs have explicitly stated they want to do. ))
I may completely misunderstand your point. Are you saying that quickly finding a pick-up group of other people who want to do the same quest or farm the same area is bad, and most groups should be friends or guildmates that already know eachother? I would have thought that one objective of Pantheon was to get people to group for most content with anyone else that wanted to do it, and make friends (or at least acquaintances) with people outside of their existing circle of guildmates and friends.
Whether that is or is not your point - I note that if the game is designed to make finding a group a slow and laborious process far fewer people will have time to log on, find a group, get to where the group is going to adventure and actually accomplish something. Which means more and more people will just log on, do what they can solo and log off because they only have an hour of uninterrupted play time that evening. Which means more pressure for solo content. Which the great majority of people here do not want.
The two primary means of finding a group in MMOs tends to be either groupfinders or global channels.
A groupfinder need not decrease personal interaction - as you may be assuming. With a high level of probabilty Pantheon will have a groupfinder that lets people that want to group know about other people that also want to group for similar things. It will not automatically form groups - it will make contact with potential groupmates as easy as a click or two.
When you discuss spamming global, you may have a unitary global chat channel in mind. One that is almost impossible to actually chat in because of the constant looking for group, looking for more, wanted to buy, wanted to sell, looking for guild, recruiting for guild and similar messages often spammed without pity. I agree this exists in many games and is not a good thing. But ideally Pantheon will have separate channels - global channels not local channels- for different purposes.
Thus one channel for looking for groups or looking for group members. One channel just for buying and selling without using a broker or auction house. Exactly what the ECT crowd wants but why limit it to people standing around doing nothing but yelling at people a few feet away for hours. One channel for guild advertisements or looking for guild. One channel for conversation unrelated to the game so all the people that seem to want to spend the day discussing music or entertainment on a game channel can do so without bothering most of us. Maybe a help channel - why should a new player be unable to ask for information outside of his or her specific zone? But one channel for anything else related to Pantheon.
You say that many MMOs have such systems, but in practice everyone spams the world general channel and ignores the specific channels. In this you are quite likely correct. But Pantheon isn't every other game and we probably won't have the overwhelming mass of players a game like WoW has. Rules can be established and made clear for how channels are used. Rules can be *enforced* with temporary muting for people that insist on using channels for the wrong purpose even after being asked not to. Separate threads have discussed the plusses and minuses of volunteer Guides with debate over whether non-employees of VR can be trusted with any powers. Temporary muting for clearcut violation of rules such as goldspamming or insistance on violating channel rules is among the most minor of powers but one that can enormously improve the atmosphere. Players will rapidly learn that there *are* rules and they *are* enforced therefore intentional violations will become fewer and fewer.
The East Commons Tunnel is typically what is called a kludge... some people erroneously calling it 'emergent behavior'. Basically, its something required to be used because the developers were too stupid to include that functionality in the game from the start.
Some people tend to like that stuff and the feeling of 'roughing' it. Generally, it tends to be a severe minority of the playerbase consisting of those few players willing to spend their time trading 24/7, and fond statements given when said functionality no longer has to be used. This makes for 'rose colored glasses'.
For the majority, not including simple stuff like an in-game offline trading system in 2018 or 2019, simply means your game is under-written crap and will severely cap your potential playerbase as people tell their friends how big of a joke your game is. Thats the harsh reality. The emergent behavior in this case being the people unsubscribing until the game is in a playable state.
I mean.. seriously.. its 15 year old technology and even the game that introduced that particular kludge, killed it with Luclin.
Bad Game Development should be Avoided, not cherished.
To add to Quillims point, if, for some reason, they change their mind and illogically do not include custom global channels, or guild chat that is global? The community would simply move the /auction channel to discord, if that's what it took, to solve the problem.
It's not a mysterious unknown nebulous problem to solve anymore. It's a historically solved problem. There are numerous instant, free, and extremely simple options that give some players exactly what they want, at minimum: Searchable global prices, with history.
I sympathize with players that have frozen their concept of the auction house, in time, to a point where continuously spamming chat in one zone was their own ideal solution. Yet, that moment has passed, and will never exist again. Rage against the machine if you wish, it won't change anything. :)
Consider: Even if you had a game with zero in-game communication, no text chat whatsoever, a global searchable database with historical prices would still exist, built by the community.
vjek said:To add to Quillims point, if, for some reason, they change their mind and illogically do not include custom global channels, or guild chat that is global? The community would simply move the /auction channel to discord, if that's what it took, to solve the problem.
Correct. Now, 'Emergent Behavior' *can* be beneficial if it adds to the gameplay experience without breaking it. But most tends to generate a laundry list of things you need to fix and has a direct corrolation with Incorrect Game Design. The fewer you have, the more solid your game will be and the happier people will be playing it.
And, just to be clear... i don't necessarily advocate for an AH. All i will say is that Pantheon needs to come up with Their Way of doing offline trading, in whatever form that takes that makes the most sense for the game they're making. Excluding it just for giggles and 'nostalgia' so people have to make a ECT fix, simply drowns technical support with a mound of comments that all break down into.. 'WHY IS THERE NO SECURE OFFLINE TRADING. OMG FIX'.
Trust me.. they'll likely be creating plenty of new issues. No need to repeat the ones they've made in the past and that have known solutions.
Thats just bad form.
vjek said:To add to Quillims point, if, for some reason, they change their mind and illogically do not include custom global channels, or guild chat that is global? The community would simply move the /auction channel to discord, if that's what it took, to solve the problem.
This.
There will already be LFG, WTS, WTB discords that pop up. And you either use them or you dont. And if you dont you'll he at s disadvantage. This is something you cannot stop. This is the era of gaming that we are in.
Porygon said:There will already be LFG, WTS, WTB discords that pop up. And you either use them or you dont. And if you dont you'll he at s disadvantage. This is something you cannot stop. This is the era of gaming that we are in.
Wrong. There are plenty of players and guilds who want to RP in a challenging environment again ;) and there may even be RP servers again. Not having global chat in game gives people *the option* to not have to participate in it. Global chat, auction house, and instances already exist in pathetic games like WoW where instant-gratification is prevalent. Pantheon needs challenge and depth, not EZ mode.
Syrif said:Porygon said:There will already be LFG, WTS, WTB discords that pop up. And you either use them or you dont. And if you dont you'll he at s disadvantage. This is something you cannot stop. This is the era of gaming that we are in.
Wrong. There are plenty of players and guilds who want to RP in a challenging environment again ;) and there may even be RP servers again. Not having global chat in game gives people *the option* to not have to participate in it. Global chat, auction house, and instances already exist in pathetic games like WoW where instant-gratification is prevalent. Pantheon needs challenge and depth, not EZ mode.
Pantheon DOES need challenge and depth.
BUT FOR ***OFFLINE TRADING***? Just lol.
There should be a system for that.. and as Steve Jobs would say.. It Should Just Work. Save the 'challenge and depth' for the actual gameplay. You know... the reason people actually play the game?
Just out of curiousity, do you also pine for the days when you could turn the crank to start the engine on your Model T? A starter in modern cars is just too ezmode for you.. amirite?
@Quillim Wow (no pun intended) what do Steve Jobs and a model T have do with it? Oh, nothing. Anyhow, Pantheon needs community and social interaction (unlike the others). As has already been seen, auction houses, instances, global chat, and instant gratification lessen mmo community and social interaction (not strengthen it). Also: plenty of people play the game for crafting and trade, and that is actual gameplay as well. We don‘t need EZ mode in this kind of a game; that can be gotten in other games and I’ll leave it at that. Cheers.
@Naunet (Hi again) It may be to the trader and crafter though. And, it’s a heck of a lot deeper than a bot doing it in AH lol.
Syrif said:@Naunet (Hi again) It may be to the trader and crafter though. And, it’s a heck of a lot deeper than a bot doing it in AH lol.
There is nothing gratifying to the trader or crafter that have to sit around either waiting for people to buy or having to waste their in-game time spamming channels 24/7 to get sales. The only thing truly gratifying is when a sale is made, and you get that no matter the system. The core precept being that you see personal advantage in a system you're willing to spend all your time manipulating, whereas most other people just Want To Play The Game while having a simple way of selling their stuff.
Once again, leave complexity to the gameplay.
The simple fact is that there is a reason we have secure automated marketplaces, and i'm very certain they are not going away. So if tilting at windmills is your thing, keep advocating for the exclusion of an offline trading system, so you can find some centralized part of the game to play your version of Trader Monopoly. Rather than.. you know.. Pantheon.
No thanks Quillim. Lol - plenty of people don’t like the instances, AH, and global chat that is prevalent in those dooownward spiraling mmo’s such as WoW. I‘d rather modernize something Old EQ had than utilize something WoW has (the first one having depth and challenge of course ;) Imo though, have a good one!
Name any mechanic or any game and you'll find 'plenty of people' that don't like those things. Basing any system off such nebulous reasoning simply runs headlong into the fact that 'plenty of people' won't like that system either.
If they come up with something better than an AH or global chat or whatever best fits their game than kudos. But what they won't do is exclude said system so as to put the onus on the players to come up with a half-ass fix, as was done in Everquest.
The ECT kludge was borne of a Bad Game Design decision that can and has been learned from, EVEN BY THE GAME THAT CREATED IT... not replicated as if this was the devs first rodeo.
Its quite simple, people need a safe, secure, offline way of trading their sellable wares. The less user time that requires, the better. Trying to reinvent it into some cluster-f of a system designed to take user gameplay time away from ya know.. the game... is crazy. That may be Your Thing. But it isn't that of others. Most just want to play the game(i.e. killing stuff) and get money for their tradeable drops while doing so.
Things go forward... they don't go backwards naively into the junk yard of bad decisions.
Syrif said:@Naunet (Hi again) It may be to the trader and crafter though. And, it’s a heck of a lot deeper than a bot doing it in AH lol.
Is it really deeper than an AH, though? With a robust market UI, you can examine sell histories, buy orders (if that's a thing), price trends, carefully timing bids, deciding the correct thresholds for starting bid vs buyout, etc... You can do all sorts of market research that provides a great deal more depth than just spamming a chat channel.
@Naunet Riiight except there is little to no social and community interaction in a ‘bot-auction house’ system. Should only be between players. So no, it’s not deeper imo. Cheers.