LucasBlackstone said:My big problem with AH style set ups is that it is too easy to mainpulate the entire server market when 99 percent of given commodity is listed there. Once you control a good portion of the commodity, you can set the price to be MUCH higher then it is worth ( not be vendor standards, by player standards ) and you will still sell a majority of your commodity that you hoarded.
This is part of why I dislike AHs, plus it takes out a large portion of getting to know more people via trading and chatting about x commodities.
What I would suggest for people who dislike the idea of selling items and making trades "in person" is to make friends with someone who enjoys it. Then give them things to sell for a cut of the money. Then you are happy, and they are happy and you made a new friend in the process. Player interaction is better imo then ways to keep players from wanting to interact, aka click buyout on auction, walk to mailbox and collect goods.
Both arguments are very true and one doesn't need to add much more .
Indeed I did the former with an extreme ease on EQ once the Bazaar was introduced . I simply took advantage of the fact that a majority of people need to sell or buy but don't want to take the time to do it efficiently . So I had a list of mostly crafting components (like blue diamonds f.ex) which were the top traded items . The going price was around 100 PP per . So I systematically bought everything below 110 every day and was reselling in a controlled way 130 in smaller batches . Within few days I was buying and selling 90 % of blue diamonds and the price was now around 150 PP per while I had a huge inventory bought below 100 . In WOW it was the same thing . Etc .
This was of course basically impossible with the direct EC system because it would need to be OL 24/24 . So yes, what you suggested is/was the best way to buy/sell for those who wouldn't like to spend (some) time in ECT .
Guilds would run traders 24/7 and corner markets and hike prices in ECT too.
Eventually, people made 3rd party tools that effectively turned it into an AH with history and market analysis.
VR need to get in front of that and provide something that is useful enough to become the defacto system, but restrictive enough to avoid abuse.
disposalist said:Guilds would run traders 24/7 and corner markets and hike prices in ECT too.
Eventually, people made 3rd party tools that effectively turned it into an AH with history and market analysis.
VR need to get in front of that and provide something that is useful enough to become the defacto system, but restrictive enough to avoid abuse.
I would be cool with something that shows the prices of items and what previous people sold them for. That I am fine with. The AH though is not the way to go.
Ashvaild said: I can tell you right now...regardless of what system they go with...people will find a zone that's easy to access for everybody and start /auction their wares.
This all depends on how chat channels are organized. Most people just auction in cities. You will likely never see a random Lowbie zone used again. Cities make the most sense
Nephele said:Regarding player delivery options: It's an interesting thought exercise to think about an EVE-style contract system (both buy/sell and courier contracts) in Pantheon. To make it work you'd need to have regionalized storage to work with. So let's say you bought a set of armor (via contract) in Syronai's Rest. But you're at an outpost in Whitethaw. You could set up a courier contract for someone to bring the armor from Syronai's Rest to your local bank. You put up the price you're willing to pay for the delivery, and a collateral fee that the person completing the contract must post in order to accept it. They would then get a box in their inventory, which they deliver to the banker in your outpost to complete the contract. If they successfully complete the contract within the allotted time, you get your armor and they get their collateral back as well as the delivery fee. If they don't complete the contract, you lose the armor, but you get their collateral.
I have absolutely NO idea if this would really work in Pantheon. It worked in EVE because EVE literally had thousands of stations where items could be located, and so transporting goods was serious business. Even then playes had to be careful about how they posted contracts to prevent getting scammed out of goods, and which contracts they accepted, because some were outright traps. But, it's an interesting idea to think about.
Hmm if you can only make the delivery target a special npc in every city, how would players trap you in this sort of situation? you take the goods, you offer collaterol, and then you deliver it to the proper place right? or did Eve make the mistake of setting targets to actual players that you need to go find?
Very interesting system nonetheless, love the post=)
A variaton of this would probably work out I think, depending on what those "traps" were. Though I would like to find a way around the collaterol thing, it makes sense that you need to sacrifice something so you don't take the delivery quest and then wait it out to troll, but still, here's an idea:
You still offer collateral, but it's just some gold. Say, half the delivery fee or something. If you fail to deliver, the item goes back to it's original location, and the gold goes either to the guy who put up the request, or to the guy who wanted the delivery. You can deal with this "or" with a box you tick while setting up the delivery quest.
disposalist said:Whenever you are leaving town, check in on the trade merchant to see if there are any deliveries where you are headed...
Haha fair enough. As long as the npcs are rare yet easy to find, I would probably support a system where folks can leave items with an npc.
I would like it though, if some sort of ECT in a random location does form, that VR follows up with support for this kind of thing right there, instead of making folks go to the nearest city.
I think it should probably cost you a basic moneysink fee, not because I want it to be difficult, but because I hear moneysinks are nice. Or if bank slots are rare then perhaps costing one of your bank slots to leave an item for another player would work alright too. You could even have a setting where the receiving player can offer up his bank slot, until he can go get it back by receiving the item in the predetermined location.
Ashvaild said: I can tell you right now...regardless of what system they go with...people will find a zone that's easy to access for everybody and start /auction their wares.
No need with global channels. Or even just a guild that permits all players to invite anyone at any time. Then you use /guild and leave when you're done.
Only necessary if, for some insane reason, there were no custom global channels like ~every MMO since and including EQ1 has had. :)
ltdabes said:Does anyone remember the great joy of doing NOTHING but sitting in East Commons Auctioning Gear, OOC'ing for teleportations, and arranging groups.
Any thoughts on a zone like this in Pantheon? not really disignated by the developers as a trade zone, but heavily agreed upon by the community to perform commerce, and general hangout?
I loved meeting new people, and learning new tricks this way.
Let me know your guys thoughts.
Yes I LOVED the player interaction with trading there <3
I don't like the "bot system" as exists on current mmo's. Time for something different again right here with Pantheon :)
Here's a locked thread here that beat this topic to death, some other ideas in the thread as well as alternatives to the AH, to keep the spirit of the EC Tunnel with a more modern feel. It's a long read though:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house
Ok, the whole reason about the east comminlands tunnel idea and getting to know more people is honestly so untrue, I know for one when I get done with a deal with a seller/buyer I basically completely forget them, until I/they get something else from me/them, than I forget them again soon after til it repeats again. Now this could simply just be me, but if your honestly going to tell me that you even remembered 20% of your sells/buys I'm sorry but I will absolutely tell you that your full of it I'm sorry. And I not trying to insult those who want player to player interaction, I want it to, but even though if their is an AH doesn't stop you from sending that person a tell, unless you simply don't tell them one not the other way around.
Raidan said:Here's a locked thread here that beat this topic to death, some other ideas in the thread as well as alternatives to the AH, to keep the spirit of the EC Tunnel with a more modern feel. It's a long read though:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house
Lots of people in that thread that I don't see posting anymore. Lots of interesting stuff in there though!
Riahuf22 said:Ok, the whole reason about the east comminlands tunnel idea and getting to know more people is honestly so untrue, I know for one when I get done with a deal with a seller/buyer I basically completely forget them, until I/they get something else from me/them, than I forget them again soon after til it repeats again. Now this could simply just be me, but if your honestly going to tell me that you even remembered 20% of your sells/buys I'm sorry but I will absolutely tell you that your full of it I'm sorry. And I not trying to insult those who want player to player interaction, I want it to, but even though if their is an AH doesn't stop you from sending that person a tell, unless you simply don't tell them one not the other way around.
I think that's true to some degree, but not completely either. Some of those sellers might be people you recently grouped with, or will in the future. But I also think buying/selling often amounts to a brief, non-meaningful transaction too. I also think it depends on how much you buy/sell. You yourself might not get to know others if you aren't a big trader, but I bet the traders themselves do. Just being in the same area all the time means you'll get to know the other people who are there with you over time.
Anyway, I doubt an AH alone will be game-breaking when it comes to socialization and community. It's just a small piece of a much larger puzzle. It's the sum of many parts that really influence community.
Some people really like the idea of being in a trade area and the meta pvp it creates. Even with trade, you can become infamous, or renowned based on your reputation as a trader. You cannot do that if all the transactions you are involved with are more or less anonymous.
For me personally, I lean toward conveience really, because I don't have much interest in trading. But I acknowledge that others do, so it would be nice if they could find a happy medium. If I have to travel to a place where I think I can easily offload or buy thing, and let someone else spend the time figuring out how to profit from that, that would be awesome. Everyone is happy.
Parascol said:Raidan said:Here's a locked thread here that beat this topic to death, some other ideas in the thread as well as alternatives to the AH, to keep the spirit of the EC Tunnel with a more modern feel. It's a long read though:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house
Lots of people in that thread that I don't see posting anymore. Lots of interesting stuff in there though!
Glad you enjoyed. Many in that thread had been posting for 2 years even prior to that, so, I'd guess many/most posters are still lurking, but have experienced forum-warrioring burnout. I know I have at times.
So the other day just for kicks I randomly decided to try EQ1 project99. So after logging in and getting my toon up to level 4 I was able to venture out into East Commons and I of course passed by the tunnel. As expected there was a ton of people gathered there standing around /auctioning stuff. When I logged into the server the game told me there was around 800 people connected, and I thought this was cool and hoped there would be people to group with. As I started counting how many people were standing around in EC tunnel I had this thought hit me... with only 800 people connected, and around 100 people standing in EC tunnel trying to sell/buy stuff, this meant that almost 1/8th of the entire population was tied up, not being available to group up and actually play with me.
I was actually saddened for a few minutes and thought to myself... "How much time is wasted by this practice?" and "How many people are out there struggling to find enough people to form a group because so many people are tied up spending their play time trying to buy and sell stuff."
As I said before in this thread... I myself will always prefer being out adventuring, rather than standing around trying to deal with trading. So whatever option causes the least time commitment will always be what I would prefer.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:So the other day just for kicks I randomly decided to try EQ1 project99. So after logging in and getting my toon up to level 4 I was able to venture out into East Commons and I of course passed by the tunnel. As expected there was a ton of people gathered there standing around /auctioning stuff. When I logged into the server the game told me there was around 800 people connected, and I thought this was cool and hoped there would be people to group with. As I started counting how many people were standing around in EC tunnel I had this thought hit me... with only 800 people connected, and around 100 people standing in EC tunnel trying to sell/buy stuff, this meant that almost 1/8th of the entire population was tied up, not being available to group up and actually play with me.
I was actually saddened for a few minutes and thought to myself... "How much time is wasted by this practice?" and "How many people are out there struggling to find enough people to form a group because so many people are tied up spending their play time trying to buy and sell stuff."
As I said before in this thread... I myself will always prefer being out adventuring, rather than standing around trying to deal with trading. So whatever option causes the least time commitment will always be what I would prefer.
Indeed. You only got to see that because you started in Freeport. Because of ECT, the other start cities aren't very popular (Qeynos is pretty much dead).
This post made me think that having several regional trading centers (not calling them Auction Houses because that seems to trigger pre-conceived notions of what they are or should be like) are a great idea because if there ends up being only one it kills the other areas.
If travel is going to be meaningful, then having a single trade area would mean people tend to stop using anything but the nearest start city, like in P99.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:So the other day just for kicks I randomly decided to try EQ1 project99. So after logging in and getting my toon up to level 4 I was able to venture out into East Commons and I of course passed by the tunnel. As expected there was a ton of people gathered there standing around /auctioning stuff. When I logged into the server the game told me there was around 800 people connected, and I thought this was cool and hoped there would be people to group with. As I started counting how many people were standing around in EC tunnel I had this thought hit me... with only 800 people connected, and around 100 people standing in EC tunnel trying to sell/buy stuff, this meant that almost 1/8th of the entire population was tied up, not being available to group up and actually play with me.
I was actually saddened for a few minutes and thought to myself... "How much time is wasted by this practice?" and "How many people are out there struggling to find enough people to form a group because so many people are tied up spending their play time trying to buy and sell stuff."
As I said before in this thread... I myself will always prefer being out adventuring, rather than standing around trying to deal with trading. So whatever option causes the least time commitment will always be what I would prefer.
That 1/8th of the community wanted to be there trading. If they didn't, they would sell their items for a cheaper price and be on their way. People enjoy playing the game differently than you and I.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:So the other day just for kicks I randomly decided to try EQ1 project99. So after logging in and getting my toon up to level 4 I was able to venture out into East Commons and I of course passed by the tunnel. As expected there was a ton of people gathered there standing around /auctioning stuff. When I logged into the server the game told me there was around 800 people connected, and I thought this was cool and hoped there would be people to group with. As I started counting how many people were standing around in EC tunnel I had this thought hit me... with only 800 people connected, and around 100 people standing in EC tunnel trying to sell/buy stuff, this meant that almost 1/8th of the entire population was tied up, not being available to group up and actually play with me.
I was actually saddened for a few minutes and thought to myself... "How much time is wasted by this practice?" and "How many people are out there struggling to find enough people to form a group because so many people are tied up spending their play time trying to buy and sell stuff."
As I said before in this thread... I myself will always prefer being out adventuring, rather than standing around trying to deal with trading. So whatever option causes the least time commitment will always be what I would prefer.
I will sound picky, but your whole topic feels like "Thoses people are unavaliable to be usefull to me". It's quite the opposite of freedom of activities and choices. There are many more AFKers in current games (roughly 1/3 of the population) than thoses guys focusing in trading, and if they wanted to group up and play with you, they would leave their spot in ECT and do it, as nothing tie them to this spot. Trading is allways OPTIONAL in MMO, a way to exchange something you need with something you have, but if you feel better getting whatever you want by yourself and by your friends, then trading is not necessary.
MauvaisOeil said:Trading is allways OPTIONAL in MMO, a way to exchange something you need with something you have, but if you feel better getting whatever you want by yourself and by your friends, then trading is not necessary.
Unless there are decent ways to generate gold by simply running content, trading is necessary to fund all other activities (to cover things like repair costs, gear/echantments, buff foods, etc) - especially since VR has stated repeatedly they don't want people to become self-sufficient. I agree with the person you quoted in that I much prefer being able to list my stuff to sell and continue going about engaging in the actual game world, rather than sitting in one place and spamming a chat channel.
Raidan said:Here's a locked thread here that beat this topic to death, some other ideas in the thread as well as alternatives to the AH, to keep the spirit of the EC Tunnel with a more modern feel. It's a long read though:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house
Thanks for posting that Raidan. I'd forgotten how crazy that thread was.
oneADseven said:Let's just keep in mind that it's been stated, officially, that the plan is to leverage "regional auction houses." Hopefully this will engender a happy middle ground. I'm really looking forward to seeing their plan in action.
I've always thought less bots the better, but this could be cool.
I would like to see a combination of regional auction houses and personal housing used. EQ2 had a great system where you could place your items in a box inside your house. If someone wanted to bypass the AH fee they could visit your house directly. In a big open world game with meaningful travel this could be another way to encourage player to player interaction. The biggest difference, of course, is that players aren't necessarily obligated to be online to sell. The power of information is critical for a healthy market, IMO. I have played games that didn't have an AH and it was pretty crazy how bad people were getting exploited. Someone would spend 10 hours adventuring and sell their stuff for pennies on the dollar because there was no way to see what the going rate was. I think an AH fee of around 20-30% would be ideal, with faction being a major factor in that percentage. I have plenty of memories of browsing AH listings and then adding sellers to my friends list so I could message them when they logged online. I had countless transactions go through by doing this. The power of information makes it extremely easy to be a successful trader in a game with an AH. Splitting the difference on AH fees is the easiest way to get a transaction pushed through for both parties.
MauvaisOeil said: I will sound picky, but your whole topic feels like "Thoses people are unavaliable to be usefull to me". It's quite the opposite of freedom of activities and choices. There are many more AFKers in current games (roughly 1/3 of the population) than thoses guys focusing in trading, and if they wanted to group up and play with you, they would leave their spot in ECT and do it, as nothing tie them to this spot. Trading is allways OPTIONAL in MMO, a way to exchange something you need with something you have, but if you feel better getting whatever you want by yourself and by your friends, then trading is not necessary.
I understand what you are saying here... yes those people are not locked down to that spot and could go out adventuring if they wanted to. But this is just my point. The very lack of an actual trading system means they need to choose to be there spending their play time trading things. They have to make that choice... to stand around and trade... or to go out adventuring. We obviously know what those people chose and it was sad to me that the game forced them to make this choice.
If that sounds selfish as if I'm just saying "Man all those people are useless to me", I assure you this isn't what I meant to convey. I was just sad that 1/8th of the population of the server at that time was tied up doing something simply because there was no true system in place for this kind of thing, and if they wanted to trade, they were forced to be idle like this using their auction macros.
I wonder now, how many of these people wish there was a faster easier way to do it and wished they could go out and group during that time, but because they wanted to trade they were forced to do it in this way. Of course you could argue that since this was p99 and people knew that this was pre-bazaar, they actually chose to play on the server that didn't have an actual trading system of any sort, so maybe all of them are totally ok with it... but it still made me sad.
Of course there will always be idle/afk people in games. People have other things they may need to do and may stand around in cities idle. There are also going to be different levels of Roleplay where people may hang out in a tavern or something, and I'm not suggesting that this would be sad because they aren't useful to me... I just thought that if there was a true trading system in place in the game, all those people who are standing around using the /auction channel could actually go out and adventure, or roleplay, or maybe work on their tradeskills, or go cliff diving into the ocean if they want. Just something other than hitting an auction macro every few mintues.
Or are we thinking that there are actually people who find it fun to sit at their computer pressing a text macro every few minutes, eagerly waiting for somebody to send them a response saying "I will buy". Is this entertainment?