Nephele said:I don't know why this topic keeps coming up so much lately.
Thing is, this topic comes up a lot because it's seriously important to a lot of us. Maybe this will help you to understand:
I will no doubt have to raid for story/epic quest completion's sake and probably guild love as well. I don't like raiding, and would love something in place that lets me get through the raids quickly and easily so I can get back to the parts of the game I love. I especially would love safeguards to prevent me from raiding wrong, and wracking up big experience debts and corpse runs, beyond actually having to research the raid, and raid partners, myself.
But imagine various "compromises" that could be applied to raiding. Sure, they would make it possible for me to play the game my way. But...would raiding really NOT be ruined? Let's face it, if you made raiding easy for anyone, something would be lost for everyone, even if everyone doesn't have to raid the easy way.
So now imagine that a significant group of people are suggesting these compromises, seriously, on the forums. Can you imagine the arguments that would ensue between those of us who don't like raids and those who do?
Folks who love raiding would feel a very strong need to defend their raiding to the death. 'Sure, we have options besides raiding, such as grouping or soloing, but we still want to have as much fun as possible raiding!'
Folks who hate it would post about allowing us to get through raids with the help of npcs, or by letting us create a bot character who does the raid for us. Maybe we could not have death penalties when we raid so that those of us who don't really like it don't have to research how to properly perform the raid, as well as who we raid with, without losing more than we bargained for by dying. So on and so forth. It sounds absolutely ridiculous to you, right?
You don't see those sorts of arguments about raiding because anyone who doesn't like it knows they will lose or doesn't want to push their compromises on others, and those who like it don't feel any particular need to tell VR that hardcore raiding should be a part of the game. It's going to be an part of the game.
Even if raiding wasn't in Pantheon, what I said could apply to any core part of Pantheon, really, like leveling or grouping.
___
Now tunnel style trade is not what you would consider "core" in mmos besides EQ and Pantheon, and has a significantly smaller fanbase than raiding. Trade itself, however, is something that everyone feels they will need to do every now and again. So...we see big arguments for how folks want it done.
On one side, folks want to get through trade quickly and easily, so they can get back to the parts of the game they love. They don't feel trade is a core enough part of the game, or the fanbase, to merit making it hardcore, and thereby make them suffer whenever they need to trade something. They want systems in place to protect them from losing more than they bargained for when they perhaps don't research an item or trading partner as much as they should. They mention that those of us who want to trade without an auction house will be able to do so without issues, even if there is an auction house. (Remember what I said about raiding?)
But those of us who want trade with not even a scent of automation or hand holding from the devs? We feel that we have a chance here. A chance to get what we want, for the first time since everquest wasn't only good on the highly flawed p99 servers (I'm not flaming p99 here, I'm very greatful for it, flaws and all!!!). Of course we are going to make a big deal, ya know?
Sure, an auction house with a ridiculously unnaffordable entrance fee won't ruin trade for us... But if it was affordable? Every time we trade "our way" we do so knowing we have a significantly smaller group of people to trade with (as all the others are using the auction house), and each and every time we also have to weigh our form of trade against the opportunity costs associated with using the auction house instead. Those of us who like immersion also need to deal with the presence of giant in game E-Bays. Theres a few other issues too I'm sure, the auction house mega thread is rather large.
I honestly feel that tunnel style trade goes along with the Pantheon tenets just as well as raids, and neither should be ruined. As such, I want to be heard, in as many places as possible. I imagine others, on both sides of the argument, just want to be heard too, and this is an argument that is far fresher for many of us than raids.
The point is, you *can* have your cake and eat it. You *can* have an auction house *and* allow free trade - much like real life has done since the first professional broker charged a fee (probably thousands of years ago). But if you only have free trade then a lot of people who found things like the EC tunnel a complete pain are effectively being excluded.
The AH is *more* convenient (doesn't have to be *too* convenient, though) and costs you.
The tunnel is *less* convenient and doesn't cost you.
The AH may only provide a search and filter function and just put parties in touch to make a personal exchange. It may have some kind of storage and consignment. It may have some kind of delivery to bank and of items. It's not all or nothing.
If you truly believe there is no implementation that won't ruin the game, then, yeah there's no point discussing it, but let the devs know, sure.
disposalist said:The point is, you *can* have your cake and eat it. You *can* have an auction house *and* allow free trade - much like real life has done since the first professional broker charged a fee (probably thousands of years ago). But if you only have free trade then a lot of people who found things like the EC tunnel a complete pain are effectively being excluded.
I seem to have missed the tunnel full of free parties selling anything and everything, ONLY verbally, physically between themselves and customers, near my home. There is a farmers market about 30 minutes away that is active every other weekend that sells like...food. I probably couldn't trade my own stuff there without some form of permission. It probably wouldn't involve much hawking either. There's also garage sales every now and again nearby. Is that what you are talking about? It's not really what I mean when I say I want tunnel style trade in Pantheon.
My point is, if you put in a "compromise" as big as a bazaar or AH, Tunnel style trade definately gets excluded for the most part, and a lot of interpersonal interaction and sandboxxing as well. In the same way that optionally running raids with npcs or bots (what do you think runs game auction houses and bazaars?) would exclude regular interpersonal styles of raiding.
disposalist said:The AH is *more* convenient (doesn't have to be *too* convenient, though) and costs you.
The tunnel is *less* convenient and doesn't cost you.
Do you think that if raids had an easy button most people would still raid hardcore very often if there were no added benefits besides getting a few extra gold?
disposalist said:The AH may only provide a search and filter function and just put parties in touch to make a personal exchange. It may have some kind of storage and consignment. It may have some kind of delivery to bank and of items. It's not all or nothing.
I don't understand what you mean by delivery, storage, search function, or consignment. How would it be an AH if all it did was that? That's more like the newspapers or mail systems folks have mentioned in other threads than an actual AH. It'd be nice if an AH did those things, but they aren't what makes an AH in my opinion.
For clarification, an Auction House is a company that runs auctions. In other words, we are talking people/machines who run the actual deals being made. Bringing customers/goods together is necessary, but ultimately happens on the side.
disposalist said:If you truly believe there is no implementation that won't ruin the game, then, yeah there's no point discussing it, but let the devs know, sure.
I get that assuming everyone who says anything is saying it because they think the game will be ruined without it makes for an exciting development forum, but can you please not? For clarification, an actual AH/bazaar would ruin trade for me. Like raiding, that's just one part of the game I'll have to do every now and again. Theoretically, I will still be playing because I enjoy other parts.
BeaverBiscuit said:Thing is, this topic comes up a lot because it's seriously important to a lot of us. Maybe this will help you to understand:
I appreciate the reasoned response BB. It does help to understand where all the emotion comes from.
Let me ask you this though: Why do you feel there's not a middle ground? Why does trading need to be an all or nothing solution? I truly get the desire for player to player interaction and I support that. But what I haven't seen from any of the proponents of barter-style trading is a recognition of the consequences that are inherent in that approach, and an attempt to mitigate those consequences to allow more people to participate.
I totally understand that by giving people a convenient option, it results in more people not doing things the more immersive way that we all want. It's a fine line. But, I firmly believe that going all the way to one side or the other of the debate is not the right answer - for this game or for any other. Sometimes the simplest solution is not the best.
If it will help us get to a better place than two groups of people both telling each other that they're wrong for how they feel, I'll propose the same thing I have proposed in many of the other threads around this topic over the last couple of years:
For buying and selling, players should have options:
1) Local or regional markets with NPC brokers who buy and sell things on a consignment system (auction house style). The amount of things you can put up for sale (or set up a buy for) is limited and there is a relatively hefty transaction fee for each sale. The contents of each market are not visible in the others. If you want to browse what's for sale in Thronefast, you need to be in Thronefast.
2) The ability to hire/place an NPC vendor in the local market. This NPC vendor works like the public broker but can buy/sell a larger quanity of things with a lower transaction fee. You can also customize the NPC vendor to some extent to help advertise your goods. Vendors occupy market stalls in NPC towns and cities and while there are a fair number of those stalls they are not unlimited. As fewer and fewer stalls become available, there's some sort of cost mechanism to encourage players to move to new areas, freeing up space in the market. As with broker sales, the contents of NPC vendors are not searchable from outside their town/region.
3) Players wishing to avoid fees and do direct player to player trading can set up shop in *any* of the marketplaces in the game world - or they can potentially set up a global bazaar somewhere. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the game should provide an area on each continent that's specifically set up as a venue for players to meet and trade. No NPC vendors allowed, but if you want to find someone selling something rare, it's the place to go.
From my perspective, the way to prevent the first two options from being too attractive is to 1) strictly limit the range of buyer searches so that they're only seeing local sales, and 2) insure that transaction fees scale based on the value of the item. This means that if you're selling rat pelts, the transaction fees aren't a big deal. If you're selling the Flaming Sword of Sovereignty, those taxes should make you think twice.
My primary goal with this is to allow as many people to participate in the economy as possible (especially new players and crafters) without penalizing them based on the time they have available to stay logged in. My secondary goal is to ensure that the economy, particularly for crafted items, remains healthy, and try to mitigate the severe oversupply situations that develop in many level based games (though this alone won't fully accomplish that goal). My tertiary goal is to insure that direct player to player trading still has a place and a real reason for being, but not so much that people are forced into blowing lots of time on it just because they wanted to make and sell some potions or whatever.
In my opinion, the thing about EC tunnel was the open trade feel of it. Its like walking into a street market in RL. You can be overwelmed at first, but once you go there a few times you tend to like the convenience of it. Early EC tunnel was fine. Once the game got more time on it there was an obvious detriment to the open market text only system. Thus the bazaar was implemented. Not a perfect system, but it worked. People still shouted and auctioned stuff, but it was a lot easier to just check bazaar.
I think the main thing to remember is that although an open market is desired, it can be hectic. We need some structure just so we don't go insane trying to read the spam. I think some sort of message board like those you see online, Community yardsales, are a really good option. You can browse at your own leisure and you just send the poster a /tell and initiate the haggle. This is probably the best option to keep an open market feel.
Nephele said:Let me ask you this though:
Your goals are fantastic ones, thanks for the response!
What I am trying to dispell is something I believe to be an illusion; That an auction house or bazaar with limitations is only a compromise. I'd rather say that it goes completely to the other side of the equation. Sure, you can make it less convenient, but ultimately npcs are doing the dirty work. Going to my example of raids, It'd be ok if npcs bring the group together, but do you want npcs/bots having anything to do with the actual raid besides MAYBE carrying your loot?
As I mentioned to disposalist, an auction house that only carries the gear or brings players together is NOT an auction house, it does NOT perform the actual trade.
Going along that example, there are actual compromises available, that don't take it completely to the other side like any auction house or bazaar, with no npcs and/or bots doing the actual trading. (Hey, trading rhymes with raiding! Have I overused that example yet?=p)
There's a newspaper system somewhere on this forum where players post their information when they want to sell or buy something. This is different than an AH or bazaar because the npcs/bots have nothing to do with the actual transaction, they just bring the players together. That's fantastic!
You could have an npc or board that gives a general, possibly incorrect value regarding every item based on recent trades in the surrounding area to help folks get an idea of what something is worth. It'd be kind of ridiculous, like a board that lists off players along with their raiding history and gear scores outside of every raid area, but it definately has merit.
There's other ideas out there as well! Just please please please, no auction house, no bazaar=)
EDIT: Kreed's got some good suggestions=)
EDIT 2: I forgot to adress the idea that VR could assign balanced AH values to everything. Please remember that small teams are inherently going to have trouble with this kind of thing. Did you know VR decided to turn Skar knees the right way because they simply didn't have the resources to make every pair of pants in the game fit on a creature with reversed knees? Pricing everything doesn't require art and 3d modeling, but it does require you to look at literally everything that will appear on the AH, and also track and study recent price trends for those things. Otherwise, stuff falls through the cracks, and you have that "people being mischarged in their trades" problem all over again. Except now VR has to listen and address the problem every time someone complains to them (because it is strictly VR's fault).
An AH with perfectly balanced prices for putting up everything in the game would theoretically be a good compromise, but I honestly don't believe it can be pulled off.
So far I have stayed out of this and other threads based on the vitrol that ends up spewing out and the wild unsubstantiated claims. I will just reitterate what I mentioned before. Any trading system, no matter the style or type really should be just as fair to the weekend workers that are off Tues and Wed, the night shifters that can only game 7-10 AM, as well as the cubicle crowd 9-5 Mon- Fri types. Any built in game mechanic system that favors "peak playing hours" is crap. Notice I did not mention anything about player-developed anything. But, now I will. Building a game and intentionally leaving out a formal developed trading system and trusting in the playerbase to build their own is not my definition of wise (opinion for sure). Sure, something will almost certainly develop organically. I can promise that it won't be fair to the folks playing on the game time margin, it will always be a great place to be during the peak server hours.
As for social interaction, personal experience in the last MMO I played from 2004-2008 (WoW); the AH greatly improved my ability to socially interact with the people that truely mattered the most to me in that game and on that server, my guild and members of a few fellow raiding guilds. Sitting down being a deadbeat on some street trying to follow chat channels streaming past would have most certainly removed much of that interaction with my guild (Code for "the people I really wanted to chat with and socialize with"). Making claims that it killed socialization; I find incredibly inaccurate from personal experience if not a down right lie. Next; there was always sellers in that evil game that had the AH. The best crafters were hawking their wares during the time I was subscribed (albiet at peak hours) that was the best way to find crafters and goods for items such as Onyxia's Cloak. The market in Orgrimmar was thriving and bustling at least during the years I played (also how I know what I prefer and do not prefer- I do not prefer bleeding eyes chasing chat channels).
My 2 coppers, bring on a personal vendor system or a full fledged AH, or the Eve style system where you need to go get an item from a distant market, or a market board that is clickable (click an item and it gives the sellers name and it auto-opens a /whisper window) anything at all that doesn't nail my feet down for hours. Anything that prevents me from actually playing the game out in the wilds is IMO a very bad mechanic.
Dashed said:So far I have stayed out of this and other threads based on the vitrol that ends up spewing out and the wild unsubstantiated claims. I will just reitterate what I mentioned before. Any trading system, no matter the style or type really should be just as fair to the weekend workers that are off Tues and Wed, the night shifters that can only game 7-10 AM, as well as the cubicle crowd 9-5 Mon- Fri types. Any built in game mechanic system that favors "peak playing hours" is crap. Notice I did not mention anything about player-developed anything. But, now I will. Building a game and intentionally leaving out a formal developed trading system and trusting in the playerbase to build their own is not my definition of wise (opinion for sure). Sure, something will almost certainly develop organically. I can promise that it won't be fair to the folks playing on the game time margin, it will always be a great place to be during the peak server hours.
It is hard to raid opposite peak hours. Can I have bots and npcs to help me raid during off hours? No, right? That would be bad right? All I'm saying is it's the same for trade. Auction houses and bazaars are just glorified uses of npcs and bots. It's important to note that I don't generally consider raiding to be "the game", I consider it to be "the job", so really, anything that doesn't nail my feet to it for hours.
I get what you are saying, and having to log on at bad times is not because you are a bad person or anything like that. But an ultimately social game is going to require you to be social. Sometimes, or maybe most of the time, that requires you to log on at the right time. I don't think it's a good argument to say that things which require you to log on and see other players are necessarily bad in an mmo, because that covers a heck of a lot more of what you do in an mmo then just trade. Why should trade alone be excluded as something that should benefit everyone, even those who log on at bad hours or don't like it, equally?
Also note that Pantheon will not bar servers based on location, so you will probably get to play with folks on the other side of the world, at the very least.
As for socialization, the short of it is: WoW's auction house system was not near as social for me as the tunnel in EQ. Maybe that's different for you, but I didn't see near as much trade related interaction (politics and trolling was still on point) between others in orgrimmar as I saw in the tunnel.
Crafters were EVERYWHERE in the tunnel, I can't stress it enough. Orgrimmar just didn't come close. However, that could just as easily be due to differences in how tradable crafting was in WoW vs EQ. Honestly, over here on the opposite side of the street, I'm as surprised and unbelieving as you are when I hear that AH games had lots of trade related communication.
EDIT: I'd argue that when it comes to anything in an mmo, npcs and bots can be considered, they're good at being town guards and handing out quests n whatnot, but should definately not be the go to solution for a problem. The better thing to do imo is to ask "how can we involve players with as much meaning and fun as possible?"
disposalist said:The point is, you *can* have your cake and eat it. You *can* have an auction house *and* allow free trade - much like real life has done since the first professional broker charged a fee (probably thousands of years ago). But if you only have free trade then a lot of people who found things like the EC tunnel a complete pain are effectively being excluded.
The AH is *more* convenient (doesn't have to be *too* convenient, though) and costs you.
The tunnel is *less* convenient and doesn't cost you.
The AH may only provide a search and filter function and just put parties in touch to make a personal exchange. It may have some kind of storage and consignment. It may have some kind of delivery to bank and of items. It's not all or nothing.
If you truly believe there is no implementation that won't ruin the game, then, yeah there's no point discussing it, but let the devs know, sure.
An AH still greatly harms those who enjoy actual trading regardless of if there are broker fees, to the point they are almost forced to just use the AH. A player to player trading/EC bazaar system only really works when the vast majority are involved in it, otherwise you end up with players attempting to sell their goods to near empty zones or players otherwise just passing through/not looking to buy/sell anything. It would be far more time/effort at that point to really justify trying to be a trader, so best to hang their hats and just start doing the modern thing of monopolizing/manipulating/controlling prices of different goods on the AH (a much "colder" profession).
Iksar said:disposalist said:The point is, you *can* have your cake and eat it. You *can* have an auction house *and* allow free trade - much like real life has done since the first professional broker charged a fee (probably thousands of years ago). But if you only have free trade then a lot of people who found things like the EC tunnel a complete pain are effectively being excluded.
The AH is *more* convenient (doesn't have to be *too* convenient, though) and costs you.
The tunnel is *less* convenient and doesn't cost you.
The AH may only provide a search and filter function and just put parties in touch to make a personal exchange. It may have some kind of storage and consignment. It may have some kind of delivery to bank and of items. It's not all or nothing.
If you truly believe there is no implementation that won't ruin the game, then, yeah there's no point discussing it, but let the devs know, sure.
An AH still greatly harms those who enjoy actual trading regardless of if there are broker fees, to the point they are almost forced to just use the AH. A player to player trading/EC bazaar system only really works when the vast majority are involved in it, otherwise you end up with players attempting to sell their goods to near empty zones or players otherwise just passing through/not looking to buy/sell anything. It would be far more time/effort at that point to really justify trying to be a trader, so best to hang their hats and just start doing the modern thing of monopolizing/manipulating/controlling prices of different goods on the AH (a much "colder" profession).
Yep, people keep dropping the horribly flawed "you don't have to use it" argument whenever something like this comes up. You don't HAVE to use the instant click telportation portals. You don't HAVE to use the mini map. You don't HAVE to use mana potions. :eyeroll:
Absolutely NO auction house at release. The game will be better for not having it... maybe down the road in an xpack or DLC, but at release no AH please. Let people trade, sell, give items away, etc. Some of my fondest memories are of people coming into Freeport and selling stuff off cheap. Cheaper than the Tunnel. I played on Mith Marr server and a guy from Afterlife would always come and it was awesome :) He would do the whole RP version too. Coming from far off lands to bring you.... etc etc.
BeaverBiscuit said:disposalist said:The AH may only provide a search and filter function and just put parties in touch to make a personal exchange. It may have some kind of storage and consignment. It may have some kind of delivery to bank and of items. It's not all or nothing.
I don't understand what you mean by delivery, storage, search function, or consignment. How would it be an AH if all it did was that? That's more like the newspapers or mail systems folks have mentioned in other threads than an actual AH. It'd be nice if an AH did those things, but they aren't what makes an AH in my opinion.
For clarification, an Auction House is a company that runs auctions. In other words, we are talking people/machines who run the actual deals being made. Bringing customers/goods together is necessary, but ultimately happens on the side.
For clarification, an Auction House *as we've seen it implemented in other MMORPGs* may well be something more than you want. Even in real life there are many flavours of "auction house" and, since we are talking about a fantasy world that is still being designed, why be so rigid?
It does not have to be like that in Pantheon.
It can (and probably will) be more limited.
Will it impact the totally manual EC tunnel style auction? Probably.
Will it be anything remotely like, in scale or scope or concept or impact, having a button to auto-complete a raid? Or free-for-all fast travel? Good grief... No.
KenoMonster said:Yep, people keep dropping the horribly flawed "you don't have to use it" argument whenever something like this comes up. You don't HAVE to use the instant click telportation portals. You don't HAVE to use the mini map. You don't HAVE to use mana potions. :eyeroll:
:eyeroll: right back at you for using the horribly flawed "this is just like these other terrible things" argument and for behaving like what is being proposed is the worse version of whatever it is you don't like so you can be more upset.
It's not the same as those things at all and it doesn't have to be the same old auction house you've hated in other games.
disposalist said:BeaverBiscuit said:disposalist said:The AH may only provide a search and filter function and just put parties in touch to make a personal exchange. It may have some kind of storage and consignment. It may have some kind of delivery to bank and of items. It's not all or nothing.
I don't understand what you mean by delivery, storage, search function, or consignment. How would it be an AH if all it did was that? That's more like the newspapers or mail systems folks have mentioned in other threads than an actual AH. It'd be nice if an AH did those things, but they aren't what makes an AH in my opinion.
For clarification, an Auction House is a company that runs auctions. In other words, we are talking people/machines who run the actual deals being made. Bringing customers/goods together is necessary, but ultimately happens on the side.
For clarification, an Auction House *as we've seen it implemented in other MMORPGs* may well be something more than you want. Even in real life there are many flavours of "auction house" and, since we are talking about a fantasy world that is still being designed, why be so rigid?
It does not have to be like that in Pantheon.
It can (and probably will) be more limited.
Will it impact the totally manual EC tunnel style auction? Probably.
Will it be anything remotely like, in scale or scope or concept or impact, having a button to auto-complete a raid? Or free-for-all fast travel? Good grief... No.
KenoMonster said:Yep, people keep dropping the horribly flawed "you don't have to use it" argument whenever something like this comes up. You don't HAVE to use the instant click telportation portals. You don't HAVE to use the mini map. You don't HAVE to use mana potions. :eyeroll::eyeroll: right back at you for using the horribly flawed "this is just like these other terrible things" argument and for behaving like what is being proposed is the worse version of whatever it is you don't like so you can be more upset.
It's not the same as those things at all and it doesn't have to be the same old auction house you've hated in other games.
It isn't the same, it's still a bad argument. I don't find the regional AH as has been described to be particularly offensive, or awesome, one way or the other. But people on the QoL side of things seem to always refuse or be unable to see or understand the reason why others don't agree. It IS going to destroy something that MANY people seem to love, and the "then don't use argument" remains a poor one as people have described in better detail than I have.
I've stayed out of this for a while but I believe the bazarre argument in favor of the bazaar - at least in this thread - is clear. It can fairly (if unsympathetically) be summarized as follows.
If Pantheon gives players a choice - very few of us who are emotionally arguing in favor of a bazaar would actually use it. It takes up so much time and is so inconvenient that any competition at all, even regional auction houses, will kill it. Let players have a free choice and the bazaar will go down faster than a 10 copper Terminus ...lady. We want a bazaar and the only way to have one is to prevent anyone else from doing anything else. Those of you who say that we can all live in harmony - you trade your way and I will trade mine are trying to kill bazaars because no one in their right mind would *use* a bazaar given a choice.
As I said - not phrased sympathetically but that *does* seem to be *precisely* what Iksar and Keno Monster have framed as their core arguments here recently.
The reply is self-evident - if almost no one would use it given a choice, even with so many players having EQ experience - do not cripple the systems that people want in order to cater to the nostalgia of a handful who will, after all, be entirely free to trade bazaarly to their heart's content even in a game with regional trading systems.
dorotea said:I've stayed out of this for a while but I believe the bazarre argument in favor of the bazaar - at least in this thread - is clear. It can fairly (if unsympathetically) be summarized as follows.
If Pantheon gives players a choice - very few of us who are emotionally arguing in favor of a bazaar would actually use it. It takes up so much time and is so inconvenient that any competition at all, even regional auction houses, will kill it. Let players have a free choice and the bazaar will go down faster than a 10 copper Terminus ...lady. We want a bazaar and the only way to have one is to prevent anyone else from doing anything else. Those of you who say that we can all live in harmony - you trade your way and I will trade mine are trying to kill bazaars because no one in their right mind would *use* a bazaar given a choice.
As I said - not phrased sympathetically but that *does* seem to be *precisely* what Iksar and Keno Monster have framed as their core arguments here recently.
The reply is self-evident - if almost no one would use it given a choice, even with so many players having EQ experience - do not cripple the systems that people want in order to cater to the nostalgia of a handful who will, after all, be entirely free to trade bazaarly to their heart's content even in a game with regional trading systems.
I won't argue with this. Even the most ardent will succumb to the path of least resistance.
I won't argue with this. Even the most ardent will succumb to the path of least resistance. <
I in turn will agree that the analogy to transit portals is a good one. No one is forced to use them but a game with extensive rapid travel is not what many of us want. If having bazaars as the primary means of trading is as valuable for the game as slow and deliberate travel, your side is correct and we shouldn't even have ragional automated markets. I just happen to prefer less back and forth and drama in my trading in real life as well as games - I've been in countries where the bazaar was a way of life and I got fairly good at it but never liked it.
I also may (or may not) be focusing more on low price commodity items such as 50 chunks of copper that a low level gets and wants to sell. I have said more than once that while I do not love bazaars I would have no problem if the most expensive items either couldn't go on an auction house or the fee was prohibitive. As a harvester/crafter I want to harvest or craft not spend hours trying to sell or buy low value items when maybe no one else in the bazaar is buying or selling for that crafting level. It won't gore my ox if the high value Helm of Ultimate Wisdom cannot be auctioned.
Maybe I can get *everyone* annoyed at me by suggesting regional or global commodities markets (including lower value gear) combined with newspapers/bazaars/trade channels for anything over a certain value. Personally I prefer a broker or other game-run market for everything but one needs to compromise on occasion.
I'll first admit I have not read every post in this thread. There have been so many "Auction house vs. EC Tunnel" threads that there is nothing new to be said.
What I find most astonishing is people's total lack of ability to think outside the box. Why does everybody argue back and forth in favor of one or the other? If you want a constructive thread break each of them AH and ECT down into pieces and make something new that has the best of both.
A few thoughts now that I have escaped from work for the day:
1) Several folks have brought up the idea of a "registry" sort of system where buyers/sellers could signify their intent to trade and then others could follow up with them. Sort of like an LFG system for trading, if I'm interpreting it correctly. It's an interesting idea for sure and I wouldn't mind seeing a system for EVE-style contracts in the game either way, so that someone could put up a contract with an offer price for an item they wanted, and someone else could then fill that contract. However, I don't think it solves the problem of enabling transactions where one party may be offline due to time zone or play schedule differences. You still need an NPC agent or game service to make that work. As well, this has the same problem with global visibility that a consignment system would. If you're selling fire arrows, and you can see the price that everyone else on the server is selling fire arrows for, then you are competing on price alone - and that leads (quickly) to market manipulation, in addition to being a barrier to entry for people who want to make and sell fire arrows.
It's not a terrible idea but I don't think it does enough on its own to really start to meet the goals I outlined in my post above. I wouldn't mind seeing a contract system or registry option alongside other things though (with appropriate limits)
2) I think we all need to be really careful in claiming that our own personal experience on whatever EQ server we were on represents every other player's experience. We should all remember that even in classic EQ, servers had very different cultures, and that extended to everything from the abbreviations we used in chat to the way guilds handled raid mobs to the way the economy worked. When someone says that the tunnel was great for them on their server I don't doubt that was true - for them, on their server. However my experience on my server was just as valid. I think if we really want to debate this issue then all of us need to be willing to think very critically and objectively about what we're proposing. The fact that we're having this debate at all should be a sign that no system is ever as perfect as we think it is.
3) I think there's a tendency for people to see the words "auction house" and immediately associate that to WoW or EQ2's (or many other games that copied them) implementation - which, lets be honest, were convenient, but were terribly flawed and actually caused problems for their games over time. See my point above about how no system is perfect. However, there are lots of other implementations that we should look at out there. FFXI, for example, used a reverse auction system where you couldn't see what people were selling for (although you could look at history to get an idea), and instead you entered the price you were willing to pay. If someone had posted an item for sale at that price (or lower), they got your money. SWG used a consignment system that was regional (based on planets), alongside an NPC vendor system linked to player housing. It worked fairly well until in an effort to add convenience, they enabled a galaxy-wide search function so people could find the lowest price anywhere. EVE uses a regional consignment system where you could search within any scope you wanted, but you had to actually travel to the location where the item was being sold to purchase it. EVE also has a contract system as well. But, EVE is sometimes a poor comparison because it's scale dwarfs most fantasy games. It's a single-server with tens of thousands of players, and also a game where nearly every single item is crafted and where every single item can be lost, stolen, or destroyed. My point with all this is - we should not key on the words "auction house" and make an assumption that we know exactly what the other person is describing, unless they're specific about which game they're referring to. The same can be said of "bazaar". We owe it to each other to base our opinions on details and specifics, rather than make assumptions and generalities.
I still believe that a hybrid solution as I outlined in my post above is probably the best approach, though I think some things could likely be added to it to make it even better. I also don't buy the argument that people will abandon player to player trading en masse if there are any NPC driven options that exist. Sure, a lot of people will use the NPC driven options because they're there. But I'm willing to bet you can make those options sufficiently inconvenient (via costs, restricted search functionality, limits on the number of items that can be posted, etc) that player to player trading will still occur and thrive.
I'm ok if folks disagree with me. I mean, all of this is just my (hopefully reasoned) opinion after all. But what I would hope is that all of us are willing to admit that there are downsides to the systems we like, and that we'd all be willing to really think about how to try and fix some of those downsides - even if that means meeting the other side halfway.
Nephele said:
2) I think we all need to be really careful in claiming that our own personal experience on whatever EQ server we were on represents every other player's experience. We should all remember that even in classic EQ, servers had very different cultures,
And symmetrically if there is a universally acknowledged experience, it is also necessarily everyone's personnal experience by definition . When talking about EQ one has to distinguish the "EC tunnel" trading structure as a solution for the trade economy from the like or dislike of this structure due to subjective personnal playing style .
The former was a universal truth experienced by everybody . I have played on 5 original servers between 1999-2002 , on most TLPs (Fippy, Lockjaw, Ragefire and Agnarr) and on P99 . On 1 of the original servers the "EC tunnel" was in Kelethin and on all others it was in the EC tunnel . But the point is that it was the same emerging system which spontaneously appeared on all servers . While I can't exclude it through personal experience, I do not think that there was a single server between 1999 and 2002 (e.g before the implementation of the Bazaar) where the "EC tunnel" trading structure didn't spontaneously appear .
For a game where no special trading structures exist (like EQ) follow then some truths that don't depend on personnal opinions either .
1) The EC tunnel system was the best solution to trading if trading is left to players alone because it appeared in an almost indentical form everywhere .
2) Trading is a very important part of the game because there has probably not been a single server where an EC tunnel structure didn't appear . This is obvious because trade is necessary for economy and it just proves that almost all players consider that economy is an integral and necessary part of a MMORPG .
3) The implementation of an automated AH like system (Bazaar in EQ) instantaneously kills the personnal direct vendor - buyer trade bar a few ultra rare exceptions .
Now the opinion about this manual "EC tunnel" style system is indeed something that will depend on the personnal subjective primary motivation to play an MMORPG . If I consider to simplify only 3 categories of primary motivations - the raiders, the role players and the artisans/gathererers then these categories will probably have the following opinions about the "EC tunnel" :
1) The majority of the raiders will hate it because they will see it as an annoying activity which is wasting their time that they would prefer to spend in raiding and levelling .
2) The majority of role players will love it because it gives them the opportunity to meet people, to chat and to socially interact with many players .
3) The artisans/gatherers will be balanced because on one hand an "EC tunnel" system gives the opportunity to take/propose orders which can be instantaneously executed because both players are simultaneously OL but on the other hand the "Bazaar" system makes it easier and faster to buy/sell rare and/or cheap crafting components .
This thread shows that it is difficult to find a compromise because the opinions based on the primary motivations are radically opposed so that the developpers will generally have to sacrify some of the categories and satisfy others . The choice will probably be done by estimating how the primary motivations are distributed for a particular MMORPG . I have no doubt that VR will also think along these lines but I don't think that they will give us any information about their findings .
Deadshade said:And symmetrically if there is a universally acknowledged experience, it is also necessarily everyone's personnal experience by definition . When talking about EQ one has to distinguish the "EC tunnel" trading structure as a solution for the trade economy from the like or dislike of this structure due to subjective personnal playing style .
The former was a universal truth experienced by everybody . I have played on 5 original servers between 1999-2002 , on most TLPs (Fippy, Lockjaw, Ragefire and Agnarr) and on P99 . On 1 of the original servers the "EC tunnel" was in Kelethin and on all others it was in the EC tunnel . But the point is that it was the same emerging system which spontaneously appeared on all servers . While I can't exclude it through personal experience, I do not think that there was a single server between 1999 and 2002 (e.g before the implementation of the Bazaar) where the "EC tunnel" trading structure didn't spontaneously appear .
A minor point, but server communities were not completely isolated. They talked in forums and some had characters on multiple servers.
Also, the system did not evolve that way because it was 'good', it evolved because it was perhaps the best way of alleviated *some* of the pain of manual trading. It was a centralised location between good and evil, had vendors for both, was safe from monsters and was quite near a major city. There weren't many other (any other?) locations like it. Hardly a miracle of emergent ideal behaviour.
To say that it was disliked (or liked) simply due to players playstyle I don't think is true. It was disliked also because it was far far from ideal. One could love the concept of trading in general and still dislike scanning scrolling text for hours on end. One could love role-playing and still find spamming "WTS 10xInvi Pot 100pp" every 10 seconds and occasionally adding "T2" and clicking a trade popup pretty uninspiring RP. One could be a hardcore raider and love selling your uber loot and be totally frustrated by your mega-sale disappearing into the constant spam of lesser items.
As with many of these issues, it's not a simple matter of some thinking "this is great, you just don't like it" and others thinking "that was crap, you're deluded". Some old-school things really just weren't great. They were the best we had at the time and the game was awesome often *despite* their many problems not always *because* of them.
Sure there were good aspects, but those don't have to be utterly lost with change. There's a balancing act.
As I think I said in another thread recently, somthine like: War brings communities together in an unprecedented and amazing way. War leads to massively escalated and accelerated development of technology. This does not make War a good or desirable thing, though some will still reminisce fondly and overlook the misery.
We "moderns" tend to assume that our way of doing things is the best and other approaches are primitive barbarism. Views on war are massively dictated by culture.
Many cultures over the years have viewed war as desirable - not for what it could bring but in and of itself. A *good* as distinct from a necessary evil.
Life has meaning for what you do while on earth not how long you are here. Man (maybe woman) is judged for the quality of life and nothing is better than to fight bravely and eventually die heroically. Old age is the curse of the Gods - getting feeble and dying in bed is terrible a person should die at the height of strength and ability Farming and making things is for those without the ability to do more - pity the drabness of those lives - excitement comes when any breath may be your last. This type of attitude shaped many cultures in many places.
Plus war *does* lead to great advances ...if it doesn't kill us all. Or drive us backwards so that the great deadly weapon of world war *four* will be the bow and arrow.
But I agree with Disposalist - the bazaar did have advantages over the alternatives or it wouldn't have arisen. But that doesn't mean it has those same advantages over trading systems that more modern programming and computers have permitted the development of after 1999.
So this is coming from a person who isn't too worried about 'immersion' as many people call it. I like an immersive game, but I don't get upset if there are icons or symbols on my screen that give me information. I am also a person who likes to spend my game time out adventuring and exploring, maybe even raiding, with friends rather than spending much time on buying and selling goods. So I tend to like things that make the trading parts of the game as easy as possible and with as little time commitment as possible.
So with that said:
If I had to pick between chat spam and physical trade with a person vs Bazaar style... I would pick Bazaar.
If I had to pick between Bazaar vs Auction... I would pick Auction.
If I had to pick between an Auction that I have to travel to vs a Trade UI I could use anywhere and have items delievered, I would pick Trade UI and Delivery.
But this is just my personal preference and I know not everyone will agree with me.
Disposalist said: As I think I said in another thread recently, somthine like: War brings communities together in an unprecedented and amazing way. War leads to massively escalated and accelerated development of technology. This does not make War a good or desirable thing, though some will still reminisce fondly and overlook the misery.
dorotea said: We "moderns" tend to assume that our way of doing things is the best and other approaches are primitive barbarism. Views on war are massively dictated by culture. Many cultures over the years have viewed war as desirable - not for what it could bring but in and of itself. A *good* as distinct from a necessary evil.
I realize that this is slightly off topic and I'm not sure how 'war' got brought up here, but I actually just listened to a very good podcast (actually a 5 part podcast) about this exact subject. It was broadcast live on BBC radio and is a lecture given by a Canadian professor where she "explores the tangled history of war and society and our complicated feelings towards it and towards those who fight".
So if you have 5 hours to kill (who doesn't have 5 hours to listen to podcasts?) and are interested you can find the 5 parts here:
War and Humanity: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csxgrx
Fear and Loving: Making sense of the Warrior: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csxgry
Civilians and War: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csxgrz
Managing the Unmanageable: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csxgs0
War's Fatal Attraction: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csxgs1
For those not interested... sorry for the tangent and I'll let you get back to debating the pro's and con's of people trying to out spam other players with their trade macro's in chat :-)