Spluffen said:BeaverBiscuit said:snip
None of this is relevant. You provide slander, misinformation and red herrings. I don't even personally care if there's an AH or not but this is dishonest.
BeaverBiscuit said:snip
No. Ironforge and Orgirmmar in vanilla WoW has no less trade spam than ECT.
BeaverBiscuit said:snip
Not sure if willfully ignorant or dishonest? An AH is static, one needs to be there. VR already said they'd provide matchmaking mechanics (which won't teleport you). Why not compare apples to apples?
I get it. I also want a world. Please, though, have some dignity and don't lie.
You played a different WoW than I did, my friend. Or a different ECT. I somehow made it through WoW without ever talking with anyone I traded with, except one or two times when they started the convo with me. I don't want such a low standard to be possible in a game built for social interaction.
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How is that not relevant? Can a drug not have similar effects on humans and rats, if it has already been shown in the past to have similar effects on humans and rats? why does it need to be "apples to apples"?
I really don't understand what the big difference is between an npc taking 25% experience/loot and raiding for you, and taking 25% gold and trading for you. As I have mentioned, trade is easily as important as raiding (probably more important).
Sure, raiding and trading are significantly different. The fact that an NPC is doing something important for you, and that important thing is something that some players love, isn't different at all.
The fact that the npc would be greatly reducing the value of whatever it is doing, isn't different between raiding, trading, leveling up, casting a heal, guarding a town, (anything that happens in the game, here), etc.
So I guess "willfully ignorant".
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There's plenty of games with no ECTs, and only one I can think of with an ECT. That one is unique because it has no bazaar implemented yet, and it has no AH. Not enough proof for you? Try to trade in the ECT without talking to anyone. You might manage it, every now and again. Try to trade with an AH, without talking to anyone. You will be succesful every time.
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Yea, the grouping thing is exactly what my "red herrings" are all about. I would love it if we had a matchmaking system for people who want to trade. Ive shown open support for a bulletin board/trade search type thing a few times now, which brings buyers and sellers together and also provides price references for everyone. Without having npcs that do the actual trading for you.
BeaverBiscuit said:You played a different WoW than I did, my friend. Or a different ECT. I somehow made it through WoW without ever talking with anyone I traded with, except one or two times when they started the convo with me. I don't want such a low standard to be possible in a game built for social interaction.
Yea, yea, yea. I said >VANILLA< WoW. I don't see why you insist on being dishonest.
BeaverBiscuit said:How is that not relevant? Can a drug not have similar effects on humans and rats, if it has already been shown in the past to have similar effects on humans and rats? why does it need to be "apples to apples"?
I really don't understand what the big difference is between an npc taking 25% experience/loot and raiding for you, and taking 25% gold and trading for you. As I have mentioned, trade is easily as important as raiding (probably more important). So I guess "willfully ignorant".
Sure, raiding and trading are significantly different. The fact that an NPC is doing something important for you, isn't different at all.
Seriously? You won't acknowledge that raiding has always been the most important part of MMORPGs? I don't see why Pantheon would be different, either.
BeaverBiscuit said:There's plenty of games with no ECTs, and only one I can think of with an ECT. That one is unique because it has no bazaar implemented yet, and it has no AH. Not enough proof for you? Try to trade in the ECT without talking to anyone. You might manage it, every now and again. Try to trade with an AH, without talking to anyone. You will be succesful every time.
I don't need "proof" to agree that P99 has no bazaar or AH. Fact is, though, that at least the MMO servers I play on (which do have AHs) have just as much of trade spam as ECT has on P99. Actually, last time I went to ECT there was nobody there (idk if there's an AH, Bazaar or whatever on EQReborn so that might explain that and that's the server im trying out atm).
BeaverBiscuit said:Yea, the grouping thing is exactly what my "red herrings" are all about. I would love it if we had a matchmaking system for people who want to trade. Ive shown open support for a bulletin board/trade search type thing a few times now, which brings buyers and sellers together and also provides price references for everyone. Without having npcs that do the actual trading for you.
Sure, big deal
Spluffen said:BeaverBiscuit said:snip
Yea, yea, yea. I said >VANILLA< WoW. I don't see why you insist on being dishonest.
BeaverBiscuit said:snip
Seriously? You won't acknowledge that raiding has always been the most important part of MMORPGs? I don't see why Pantheon would be different, either.
BeaverBiscuit said:snip
I don't need "proof" to agree that P99 has no bazaar or AH. Fact is, though, that at least the MMO servers I play on (which do have AHs) have just as much of trade spam as ECT has on P99. Actually, last time I went to ECT there was nobody there (idk if there's an AH, Bazaar or whatever on EQReborn so that might explain that and that's the server im trying out atm).
BeaverBiscuit said:snip
Sure, big deal
Pantheon will be different, they are placing most of the importance on grouping. I don't care if other games are all about raiding.
As I have mentioned, trading will be very important because you will need the stuff you get from trade, as well as the gold you get from trade, in order to have what you need to compete. Trading well will not be the only way to play the game, farming will certainly be a thing, but trading well will positively effect every other portion of the game.
In Pantheon, they will try to avoid things like BOE where possible, so trading will be even more important.
So yes, trade is very important, especially in Pantheon.
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Vanilla WoW? so like, when they had a thing called "high warlord"? Yea, that's where I spent most of my time. I quit near the end of the lich king era.
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It's possible for people to not talk in an AH system. They might be spamming as much, but it is possible for many players to not talk while trading. Assuming even one player chooses not to talk during his transaction, there is less interaction with an AH.
When guys like me who love ECT go silent in AH mmos, I suspect there are actually a lot of people choosing to not talk during their transactions. So yea, there's probably significantly less interaction. Note I'm saying interaction, not trade channel spamming. The two are different.
Gosh what a volatile issue. I’m squarely in the please dear god don’t expect me to spend time in an ECT type zone spamming willing to buy/sell “x”. Not even 5% of my time. Maybe those that enjoy buying/selling that way can set up a sales guild (rather than an AH.) I’d be willing to sell my “ore, or sword” to Bilbo Baggins the player from Guild Sales for “x” plat and he can sell it for whatever he can get while doing what he loves, spamming a chat channel, and haggling. That way I interact with Bilbo and Bilbo can interact with player Y, and I can go group/craft/mine/gather or whatever. Bilbo can be in any town he wants for the convenience of his market. Bilbo can run Miners Rest Finders House in Thronefast, or he can travel to Syronai’s Rest and try to sell there. He has his own business. Maybe he can have alts all over the world and travel as he likes. If Bilbo tries to corner the market on ore or his prices are to high/low some other player can set up Gandalf’s Goodies, and he can buy my stuff and try to sell it. If there are just 3 or 4 Bilbo types in each town you’ve got competition. Bilbo can sell in Thronefast from 7 - 9 pm EST every day and build up quite a business. If selling the ECT way is as fun as some think surely there will be people who want to do that. I am not looking forward to shopping while gaming, but maybe Bilbo is, and maybe Bilbo will sell me something someday.
Saw this in the past few days playing on EQReborn, and it seemed relevant.
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[Tue Sep 11 20:40:45 2018] Weedboy tells General:2, 'is ect trading not a thing here?'
[Tue Sep 11 20:41:50 2018] Erekai tells General:2, 'Not really a need when there are global chat channels'
--
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:17 2018] Bognar tells Auction:2, 'Huh, so does no one hang out in the EC tunnel anymore?'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:23 2018] Veltar tells Auction:2, 'no'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:34 2018] Veltar tells Auction:2, 'because theres a global auction channel'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:39 2018] Derkdoo tells Auction:2, 'no point with auction channel'
--
So, unless Pantheon won't have global channels... yeah.
vjek said:Saw this in the past few days playing on EQReborn, and it seemed relevant.
--
[Tue Sep 11 20:40:45 2018] Weedboy tells General:2, 'is ect trading not a thing here?'
[Tue Sep 11 20:41:50 2018] Erekai tells General:2, 'Not really a need when there are global chat channels'
--
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:17 2018] Bognar tells Auction:2, 'Huh, so does no one hang out in the EC tunnel anymore?'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:23 2018] Veltar tells Auction:2, 'no'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:34 2018] Veltar tells Auction:2, 'because theres a global auction channel'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:39 2018] Derkdoo tells Auction:2, 'no point with auction channel'
--So, unless Pantheon won't have global channels... yeah.
I hope Pantheon does NOT have global chat channels. Not even regional (continent only) channels. I hope chat is zone only,whispers / tells, group, raid, etc.
>I hope Pantheon does NOT have global chat channels. Not even regional (continent only) channels. <
Wouldn't it seem a bit odd for a game that focuses on being social and working with other players to eliminate the most commonly used means of even *talking* to other players?
I would prefer them having many channels and allowing us to enable and disable them at will so we see as much or as little chat as we wish.
Thus, a world channel for game related discussion, a world channel for non-game related discussion, a world channel for trade (think of it as the ECT but you don't need to physically be there you can craft or adventure as you trade - much better, no?), a world channel for guild recruitment, maybe a world roleplaying channel.
Continent only channels I am not sure I see a need for but both world and zone channels add value.
Why do I consider a non-game world channel important? So all the people that insist on monopolizing game channels with talk about religion, politics, movies and the like to the point where discussion related to the game is hard to even see some days can be asked to take it elsewhere and the rules will be behind the request.
dorotea said:>I hope Pantheon does NOT have global chat channels. Not even regional (continent only) channels. <
Wouldn't it seem a bit odd for a game that focuses on being social and working with other players to eliminate the most commonly used means of even *talking* to other players?
I would prefer them having many channels and allowing us to enable and disable them at will so we see as much or as little chat as we wish.
Thus, a world channel for game related discussion, a world channel for non-game related discussion, a world channel for trade (think of it as the ECT but you don't need to physically be there you can craft or adventure as you trade - much better, no?), a world channel for guild recruitment, maybe a world roleplaying channel.
Continent only channels I am not sure I see a need for but both world and zone channels add value.
Why do I consider a non-game world channel important? So all the people that insist on monopolizing game channels with talk about religion, politics, movies and the like to the point where discussion related to the game is hard to even see some days can be asked to take it elsewhere and the rules will be behind the request.
No, I don't find it odd. Many games came before global chat channels and they were the most social games I've played. People who want to talk about religion, politics, and just being trolls get ignored immediately anyways.
Vjek said: So, unless Pantheon won't have global channels... yeah
Kastor said: I hope Pantheon does NOT have global chat channels. Not even regional (continent only) channels. I hope chat is zone only,whispers / tells, group, raid, etc.
Regarding global player made chat channels: MMORPG Interview the Brad and Chris - timestamp 1:46:13
For those who don't want to hear it from the video:
Question: Can players create custom chat channels that other users can join? player created channels and not just guild, group, and raid chats.
Chris "Joppa" answered: Yeah I think that can be reasonable to expect, for sure.
Spluffen said:Kastor said:So there will be and auction channel of some sort. Then when people try to sell something in zone you'll see 10 responses telling them to use that channel instead. Great.
Yea, that way you don't clutter zone chat with endless adverts for random stuff
I really dont think people would have been spamming random crap endlessly. Like your copper shortsword for sale. Usually in Brad's games, equipment is pretty meaningful and not so readily available. I'm not a fan of global channels to say the least.
>I'm not a fan of global channels to say the least.<
Why not?
I know you said that:
>Many games came before global chat channels and they were the most social games I've played.<
but that is not a reason to avoid global chat channels unless you think global channels are a *cause* of games becoming less social.
One of the least social MMOs I have ever played was FFXIV - one of many things I disliked about it was it did *not* have a global chat channel. That doesn't refute an an argument that global channels lead to less sociability but it sure as heck doesn't support it either. Some of the MUDs were very social - would you say that the switch to MMOs like Everquest led to a decline in sociability and Pantheon should be redesigned as a MUD?
I'm really not trying to argue - I am trying to understand how more ability to talk to other players results in a loss of being social with other players and I am having a real problem grasping it. Over the years a large percentage of groups and guilds I have been in resulted from talking in global or regional channels. For one thing I may have "alts" that can use a group and chat in a higher level or lower level zone normally won't do them any good. The character I have in the zone may just be crafting or harvesting and not have anything it wants to group for there.
@Dorotea
I really think it's how you view "Social." You definitely could interact with more people on a global chat channel with ease, but I also feel that it's more a preference; although, if it existed, many would use which would lessen other forms of communication (since the default most likely would become the /global chat). Yes, you can /leave the channel, which I most often would, but, I view it similar to newer communication techniques like social media. People are definitely more "connected" but I feel mainly that the connections are much less meaningful. So, it's probably more social preference than anything. I prefer more in-person, local community type interactions versus global interactions (so even a /shout /ooc versus a /global chat). And for Pantheon, I just feel that the community would benefit without it existing. Not a dealbreaker either way for me though.
Back on point though with this thread - see my previous post.
Raidan - thanks that explanation makes perfect sense.
A varient of Gresham's law - bad communication drives out good.
I'm not necessarily persuaded but given the weaknesses of global chat channels which I freely acknowledge (they tend towards domination by juveniles and trolls) you *do* make a good point.
Something important to note....
From their streams, they said that the Auction houses will *NOT* be global. They will be local. They did not define whether global meant continent-wide, zone-wide, or city-wide. They also said that they like organic player created things like ECT. What those thooughts mean, if anything, when combined I don't know.
Kastor said:vjek said:Saw this in the past few days playing on EQReborn, and it seemed relevant.
--
[Tue Sep 11 20:40:45 2018] Weedboy tells General:2, 'is ect trading not a thing here?'
[Tue Sep 11 20:41:50 2018] Erekai tells General:2, 'Not really a need when there are global chat channels'
--
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:17 2018] Bognar tells Auction:2, 'Huh, so does no one hang out in the EC tunnel anymore?'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:23 2018] Veltar tells Auction:2, 'no'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:34 2018] Veltar tells Auction:2, 'because theres a global auction channel'
[Fri Sep 14 19:25:39 2018] Derkdoo tells Auction:2, 'no point with auction channel'
--So, unless Pantheon won't have global channels... yeah.
I hope Pantheon does NOT have global chat channels. Not even regional (continent only) channels. I hope chat is zone only,whispers / tells, group, raid, etc.
Definitely agree with Kastor. NO global chat. I also hope it is by zone. The last thing we need is a good game to get watered down yet again!
Thanks.