BeaverBiscuit said:
It is hard to raid opposite peak hours. Can I have bots and npcs to help me raid during off hours? No, right? That would be bad right? All I'm saying is it's the same for trade. Auction houses and bazaars are just glorified uses of npcs and bots. It's important to note that I don't generally consider raiding to be "the game", I consider it to be "the job", so really, anything that doesn't nail my feet to it for hours.
I get what you are saying, and having to log on at bad times is not because you are a bad person or anything like that. But an ultimately social game is going to require you to be social. Sometimes, or maybe most of the time, that requires you to log on at the right time. I don't think it's a good argument to say that things which require you to log on and see other players are necessarily bad in an mmo, because that covers a heck of a lot more of what you do in an mmo then just trade. Why should trade alone be excluded as something that should benefit everyone, even those who log on at bad hours or don't like it, equally?
Crafters were EVERYWHERE in the tunnel, I can't stress it enough. Orgrimmar just didn't come close. However, that could just as easily be due to differences in how tradable crafting was in WoW vs EQ.
Thank you BB for the easy and well reasoned responses you give to this subject. I let it slide the previous post of yours in regards to an opinion I hold, but now that the example comes back, I can see the disconnect between your PoV and mine; and it's a big one. You are making an apples to apples comparison of raiding to selling. To me that is saying 2+2=pink flying elephants. They do not equate in my mind.
There are two things to do in MMO's; PvE and PvP. Raiding is a sub-catagory of PvE not everyone does it or even wants to do it. In most games crafting is a tacked on sub-catagory of PvE again, not everyone does it or wants to do it. Selling drops is a sub-catagory of raiding, grouping, soloing (PvE catagories), crafting, as well as PvP in some games. It nowhere currently has importance enough to make it even a direct sub-catagory of PvE much less stand on its own as a Pillar of an MMO.
I have long believed that crafting should be its own "Thing" and stand on equal footing with PvE and PvP. A 3 legged stool of the MMO if you will. I have made a post months back about how I could envision Mercantile as a 4h leg. Until root game mechanics enable players to view buying/selling/trading as a legit job within a game; it will remain a very low sub-catagory. There may be things that can be done to elevate mercantile to a pillar of an MMO. Eve has a few embedded concepts and skills. Eventually, the game of the future that gets this right will mean that a master crafter can at best be an average mercantilist, a moderate PvEer, and a damn poor PvPer (Jack of All Trades/Master of None vs a Master of one and mediocre rest).
Until emphasis (Much Much more emphasis) is placed on Trading as a primary purpose in an MMORPG it in my mind is not an apples to apples comparison with raiding. The purpose of the game is to re-establish social interactions as a necessity but not at the expense of grouping and exploring.
Sorry for being too long winded.
I don't think I have traded in any MMO since EQ (if I have it was extremely rare). I miss being able to trade item(s) to someone for other item(s) or item(s) in addition to some money for things you couldn't otherwise afford straight up. Plenty of times where I wasn't feeling entirely up to sitting in EC I would work toward unloading items in a bundle at a "loss" to someone for one single valuable item to focus on selling so I could get out faster. Other times people would be trading X class gear for Y class gear often with only low-moderate concern of parity in individual item values.
I suspect it is mostly the combination of the AH and high prevalence of soulbound itemization though.
Dashed said:Thank you BB for the easy and well reasoned responses you give to this subject. I let it slide the previous post of yours in regards to an opinion I hold, but now that the example comes back, I can see the disconnect between your PoV and mine; and it's a big one. You are making an apples to apples comparison of raiding to selling. To me that is saying 2+2=pink flying elephants. They do not equate in my mind.
There are two things to do in MMO's; PvE and PvP. Raiding is a sub-catagory of PvE not everyone does it or even wants to do it. In most games crafting is a tacked on sub-catagory of PvE again, not everyone does it or wants to do it. Selling drops is a sub-catagory of raiding, grouping, soloing (PvE catagories), crafting, as well as PvP in some games. It nowhere currently has importance enough to make it even a direct sub-catagory of PvE much less stand on its own as a Pillar of an MMO.
I have long believed that crafting should be its own "Thing" and stand on equal footing with PvE and PvP. A 3 legged stool of the MMO if you will. I have made a post months back about how I could envision Mercantile as a 4h leg. Until root game mechanics enable players to view buying/selling/trading as a legit job within a game; it will remain a very low sub-catagory. There may be things that can be done to elevate mercantile to a pillar of an MMO. Eve has a few embedded concepts and skills. Eventually, the game of the future that gets this right will mean that a master crafter can at best be an average mercantilist, a moderate PvEer, and a damn poor PvPer (Jack of All Trades/Master of None vs a Master of one and mediocre rest).
Until emphasis (Much Much more emphasis) is placed on Trading as a primary purpose in an MMORPG it in my mind is not an apples to apples comparison with raiding. The purpose of the game is to re-establish social interactions as a necessity but not at the expense of grouping and exploring.
Sorry for being too long winded.
I feared this one would come up. It does not necessarily have to be raiding.
I think there's two main things to look for when we ask ourselves, "should we do the thing itself with npcs, bots, and or scripts, or should we try to find a meaningful and fun way for players to do it?"
The first is, (1) is there a large portion of the player base interested in playing that way. The second is, (2) does doing it fit the game at hand.
Back to my first point, it doesn't have to be raiding and trading. I chose raiding because many mmo players feel strongly about it, and it would work as an example to show you how important trade is to some people (It's that important). The argument can be about literally anything you do in the game. To show you:
Town guards: we chose npcs and bots instead of fun and meaningful player applications because (1) not many players are interested in that playstyle. Also (2) It arguably does not suit many tenets as well; It could keep players from going out to experience content, not foster any more relationships than it hurts, and in itself create repetitive and unmeaningful gameplay, to name a few big ones. Finally, (2), It would be extremely difficult and costly to implement a system like this.
Crafting: we chose to let the playerbase handle it in a fun and meaningful way (here's your three legged stool where we can craft even though we don't level). This is because there is a (1) significant portion of interested players, and (2), despite the fact that it is difficult to implement, complicated crafting falls right into major tenets for doozys like meaningful gameplay and socialization for the players that like it. NPCs and Bots who handle all of the actual crafting for you would ruin that.
Travel: We chose to mostly let the playerbase handle it in a fun and meaningful way, with highly inconvenient npcs that occasionaly help you along the way, such as boats. (1) lots of players, (2) lots of tenets, and ease of implementation.
Want more? I got more, again this question applies to everything you do in the game.
To reiterate recent points:
Raiding: (1) there is a significant portion of players who want do to it themselves, (2) big groups going to battle fits the mmo way pretty darn well.
Trading: (1) At least in the pantheon community, there is a significant portion people who want to do it themselves, (2), there are many arguments already about how this can fit right in with socialization and meaningful gameplay for the players that like it, and possibly for those that don't, even if it is "negative socialization".
It is also important that the least costly thing VR can do here is ECT. They simply need to "do nothing" and answer petitions they'd get no matter what trading strategy they use in Pantheon. I am definately NOT suggesting this. We can definately have filterable trade channels, newspapers...Maybe even delivery services which is a question better answered in "the importance of difficult travel" threads.
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Raiding itself is not a primary purpose of Pantheon, it has been stated many times. Also, assuming that trade keeps people from grouping and experiencing the world is false. Yes, at the ECT or AH, you do not group. But when preparing to go to the ECT or AH? You can't think of anyone who groups in an area for the valuable items rather than the rate of experience? Trade leads to at least as many groups as crafting, if not more. I mean, do you group when actually crafting and selling your goods, or only when going out, exploring, and gathering goods? It is the same with trade.
I would argue that as a sub category of almost everything you do in the game, selling gear, buying gear, and buying/selling materials is extremely important. Easily as important as raiding itself. In Pantheon we will have very little soul bound gear, which already points at trade. We will have a very complicated gear system where different gear sets allow you to work in different environments, which points at trade. Finally, as you mentioned, not everyone will raid, but everyone will trade so long as there is nothing put in place to stop players from needing to trade.
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@ Disposalist, when did I mention a button that auto completes a raid and relate it to an Auction house? I mentioned an easy button, which is not an auto complete button. I mentioned having npcs or bots that do the raid for you, in the same way they do the trade for you in an actual auction house or bazaar, which is not an auto complete button.
Also, for someone relating video gameplay to war, you sure are negative about the examples I give. I'm not dissing the war example itself, I think it is very good. Just questioning why your "horribly flawed" "this is just like these terrible things" comparisons are good and mine are bad.
Folks need to think outside the box. Having someone do something for you is only different insofar as how significant what he is doing for you is to you and him. The actual contents don't matter beyond that, to be frank. To me, trade is more important than raid. To you, raid is more important than trade. It doesn't matter to the argument anyways, because what I'm talking about is the effect npcs and bots have on anything at all, not the similarities between raiding and trading. You got caught up on the example and failed to see its implications.
I used raiding to illustrate the effects npcs/bots can have on something important to you, not the effects npcs/bots have on raiding.
Big or Small, VR should make sure everything has the right answer. In trade, npcs and bots are the wrong answer, for the same reasons they are not a good answer for folks that don't like raids, or for folks that don't like crafting.
NPCs are always not player characters, bots are always player characters being run by scripts (robots). When NPCs and bots do something, there is very little reason for players to do it themselves. If doing that something benefits players, than the NPCs and bots hurt the game by taking it from the players. If the npcs and bots neither benefit nor hurt the players, the NPCs and bots hurt the game because someone had to take the resources to put them in. Specific Context like raiding, trading, or crafting matters little to this argument.
I hope I have managed to explain to you better why I used the example. Again, while sometimes examples can be used to illustrate obvious things like taste or fun, sometimes they are used to illustrate ideas that are hard to put to words, such as the specific effect an npc has on a game feature, and how that effect would matter to you if you applied it to a game feature you care about.
In fact, you would do me a disservice by thinking I think raids are like trade. Raids bring out the absolute worst business aspects of an mmo. Lovely thing about the ECT is I don't have to send in an official, serious application to some guild, I don't have to suck up to anyone for longer than 5 minutes, I don't have to tell anyone he isn't good enough to trade with me based on numbers derived from a dps meter or other such nonsense, and I can even show the ropes to new people without getting yelled at for wiping.
I admit it is hard for me to understand how folks can get so caught up in the example, but it is also hard for me to write without giving examples. My apologies for my shortcomings.
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Rant to all of the QOL guys claiming we the ECT guys are too rigid:
Speaking of things that stop trade... Lets talk about the compromise we will have that noone talks about. NPCs called merchants. These merchants, being "easy", understandably don't get you as much money as trading with people does. Theyre kinda like the boats in travel. You use it if you have to, or working with other players isn't worth the resource cost.
If there were crafting npcs would you want them to be even nearly the quality as the player crafters? Would you want a guy soloing raiding content to be near as efficient as you? NPCs are understandably not as good as player traders.
So, you do have a compromise already. It does solve the problem of you being unable to login at the right time, and doesn't make you work hard at all at something you do not enjoy. The problem is, you don't log in at the right times and spend hours in the tunnel, and so get far less gold/social interaction for your greatly reduced effort.
We the "rigid" ones are open to even better options which can help to negate that problem of yours. VR could implement a newspaper system. They could implement a system where you can trust a player to sell your stuff for you. VR could have a caravan or delivery system for goods.
VR actually will not gate servers behind timeframe, and will also put extensive effort into ensuring every server has just the right number of players.
Put all of this together, and you probably will have someone available somewhere, at any time. You will be able to find out what fair prices are relatively easily. You will be able to ignore the trade channel. You will be able to get more gold than what you get from merchants. Much of the time, you will be able to get as much gold as a guy who spends hours in a tunnel on selling something, for as long as it takes for you to type your request, talk with a guy, and look at the trade window. If it isn't fun for you, frankly, that one is countered by how many people do find it fun.
Talk about getting the cake and eating it too...
I'm tired of being seen as a member of the offending team! You guys are the ones asking for something to be added to the game. And that something is literally passing an extremely important part of the game to the hands of NPCs and Bots. It is also in addition to a compromise, already in place, called npc merchants. How exactly do NPCs and Bots handling trade help Pantheon tenets, features, and target audience so much better than both ECT and listed compromises here and eslewhere that ECT should just be completely removed with fire?
Rant done...for now=)
I for one will be disappointed if there is no form of AH/Bazaar whether it's local or global. After 10+ years of classic EQ, the single best thing ever was having the Bazaar back on Agnarr server. I disliked having to spend 3-8 hours sitting in a tunnel selling equipment. In many cases I would dedicate a day or a week to do this. It was awful. Thankfully, P99 had forums on their website with an auction forum. I started posting all of my stuff their and sold exclusively through the website then just advertised the website's auction board which everyone knew about because they had to register there to play on P99.
1. I may be wrong but I suspect there is not a large proportion of the player base that wants to spend a lot of time standing around and trading. A few people on these forums which represents the hardest core of the hardcore but at most a small percentage of the people that will be playing the game. A *very* small percentage of the people that aren't former EQ addicts whose views are shaped by experiences many years ago. I do not use the term "addict" as a criticism - I was and am a MMO addict too.
2. The harm to Pantheon of *only* having bazaar trading is that there is a limit to how much people can tolerate in terms of slow, inconvenient and tedious in order to have that "old school" experience. Let us save inconvenient and tedious for where it really matters - slow travel. slow leveling - corpse runs etc. No need to make a three hour ordeal out of selling 20 chunks of copper.
3. ECT completely removed by fire? Colorful but inaccurate. Those of you that loved ECT are more than welcome to recreate it. But just because there were no brokers in 1999 doesn't mean all the rest of us should be forced into the bazaar.
4. At the risk of repeating myself - a bazaar works best for valuable items where the time spent is rewarded by a large return. It works more poorly for commodity items especially when there are many types of them (many crafts each with perhaps 5-10 tiers of metal, wood, gems, food, stone etc). When someone selling tier 4 metal is there - maybe no one that needs tier 4 metal is there - just people that need tier 3 or tier 5. The bazaar folks will generate far less opposition if you are more open to less time-intensive means for selling items that aren't *worth* the time to sell them in a bazaar.
BeaverBisquit nice rant - though I do not agree with it - well written. But NPC merchants are not, repeat NOT relevant. We do not want merchants to pay enough to make it as rewarding to sell 20 chunks of copper to them as to crafters that need the copper to make things. But equally we do not want all the crafters spending day after day in ECT hoping that the material they need happens to become available that day at a fair price. We want them actually crafting.
I may be the minority but I hate things like the EC tunnel. It somewhat forces you to adventure in a certain area so you can watch auctions OR you just sit there unable to sell your things cause you are trying to exp/farm.
I greatly prefered the channel system where there was a global auction channel to sell your goods in, so you could at least line up buyers while you were doing other things and then meet them later.
The other option is an auction house/broker system which does take away from the face to face encounters but allows you to sell things without having to devote all your time to it.
If I only have an hour or two to play for the evening, I would rather spend it gaining exp or working on a quest then sitting in a zone hoping someone has the item I need at a reasonable price OR is looking for the item I am selling.
i have to disagree with player trading like ECT. if you are in a groupd and something drops that would be normally soul bound in other games and can be traded to someone else in the group thats awesome its also awesome to be able to put that up in a AH and sell after you get the use out of it. that is to me player trading. not standing around for hours yelling about how i have a stack of copper to sell. i would much rather post it up pay a fee then get on with my day and at the end of the day check to see if it sold. the AH doent even have to be golbal. i would say if i post in thronefast then someone in another city doesnt see it listed and would have to travel around if looking for something spacific. or you could offer someone gold to travel to other cities looking for your items. or there could be whole player run guilds about delivering goods around termius. things like this would be awesome. also there wouldnt be anything stoppping players from setting "black markets" that offer other items at lesser prices or items that are hard to find. but i do belive that not providing some sort of AH or bazaar that allows me to search or stuff and buy it esaliy or sell esaliy will hurt the game in a long run. as much as i love this game and its ideas there are some things that should just be left behind and ECT should be one (as a main form of AH
bryanleo9 said: The market place in thronefast looks to be a nice spot for face to face trading.
Yeah they could post a board up that lists all the sellers and buyers and the prices. That would cut down on the spam. As long as its easy to find someone to sell your stuff to or to buy from. I still think an AH or bazaar would be a better idea but I am a wow casual.
ShivanAngel said:I may be the minority but I hate things like the EC tunnel. It somewhat forces you to adventure in a certain area so you can watch auctions OR you just sit there unable to sell your things cause you are trying to exp/farm.I greatly prefered the channel system where there was a global auction channel to sell your goods in, so you could at least line up buyers while you were doing other things and then meet them later.
The other option is an auction house/broker system which does take away from the face to face encounters but allows you to sell things without having to devote all your time to it.
If I only have an hour or two to play for the evening, I would rather spend it gaining exp or working on a quest then sitting in a zone hoping someone has the item I need at a reasonable price OR is looking for the item I am selling.
I wish I could like posts! This sums it up for me perfectly.
BeaverBiscuit said:I would argue that as a sub category of almost everything you do in the game, selling gear, buying gear, and buying/selling materials is extremely important. Easily as important as raiding itself.
I do understand this. I reacted to your 'easy button' comment because you imply that wanting something more than ECT is wanting an 'easy' solution like I can't handle the difficulty of ECT-style trading.
Before we go further, in EQ I was neither a fan of ECT *nor* of raiding, but not for the same reason. Raiding was generally too stressful and pressured. Trading was generally tedious and time-consuming. Both were fun at times, but had deep flaws.
BeaverBiscuit said:Also, for someone relating video gameplay to war, you sure are negative about the examples I give. I'm not dissing the war example itself, I think it is very good. Just questioning why your "horribly flawed" "this is just like these terrible things" comparisons are good and mine are bad.
I wasn't comparing war to a video game, I was compairing reminiscing about war time with reminiscing about ECT. Of course it's an extreme example, but I do that to make a point clear. Something having positive aspects doesn't make it a good thing.
BeaverBiscuit said:Folks need to think outside the box. Having someone do something for you is only different insofar as how significant what he is doing for you is to you and him
Yes people really do need to think outside the box and the box that a lot of people are stuck in is Everquest. I LOVED Everquest. If Pantheon was just Everquest with updated graphics I would play the CRAP out of it, BUT it would be ridiculous to not make improvements even if it sometimes risks damaging what made Everquest great. "Risks". "Sometimes". Please note those words. I trust in VR to work out what was truly valuable and what was not.
Some people truly seem to think that there was *nothing* wrong with EQ. Well, there's just no point discussing that viewpoint. Those people should just state their intractable opinion and leave it at that.
BeaverBiscuit said:Big or Small, VR should make sure everything has the right answer. In trade, npcs and bots are the wrong answer, for the same reasons they are not a good answer for folks that don't like raids, or for folks that don't like crafting.
And that's thinking outside the box? It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It doesn't have to be totally manual or totally automated. It doesn't have to be that *any* level of automation should *utterly* ruin any manual side.
BeaverBiscuit said:I admit it is hard for me to understand how folks can get so caught up in the example, but it is also hard for me to write without giving examples. My apologies for my shortcomings.
Don't apologise. I really appreciate your efforts to explain and you didn't get pissy like some do.
I think I do understand, automation = bad, but I think you *are* being a little rigid.
BeaverBiscuit said:Rant to all of the QOL guys claiming we the ECT guys are too rigid:
I wish people would stop with this. Wanting to talk about ways to alleviate what I see as pain points of ECT does not make me a "QOL guy". Because I don't find eye-bleeding auction spam scouring fun, suddenly I want full global automated AH, instant travel, email, no death penalty, etc, etc?
This "them and us" stuff is silly. Now as I type that I realise that I reinforce it to a certain extent with my comments about people who are intractable in their "EQ was all good" viewpoint. The difference is that I accept that *some* of EQ was awesome and pretty much perfect, but that some was not and that it *can* be changed without ruining it.
If someone cannot accept *any* change then there is no discussion to be had. They are setting themselves apart.
BeaverBiscuit said:Speaking of things that stop trade... Lets talk about the compromise we will have that noone talks about. NPCs called merchants. These merchants, being "easy", understandably don't get you as much money as trading with people does. Theyre kinda like the boats in travel. You use it if you have to, or working with other players isn't worth the resource cost.
If there were crafting npcs would you want them to be even nearly the quality as the player crafters? Would you want a guy soloing raiding content to be near as efficient as you? NPCs are understandably not as good as player traders.
See, I understand the point, I do, but suggesting vendoring stuff is an alternative to trading is just too extreme to be a realistic option. It makes the point, but it's too extreme. When an item might sell for 1000 platinum to a player in EQ but a vendor buys it for 2 gold it's not an alternative, you may as well give (or throw) it away.
If I find crafting painful that doesn't mean I want it fully automated. If I find raiding painful that doesn't mean I want to be able to solo raid bosses. I want to discuss the parts I find painful and maybe find alternatives that could make it better for everyone, not just me.
BeaverBiscuit said:We the "rigid" ones are open to even better options which can help to negate that problem of yours. VR could implement a newspaper system. They could implement a system where you can trust a player to sell your stuff for you. VR could have a caravan or delivery system for goods.
And after all that arguing, you suggest something which is pretty much exactly one of the things I suggested!
I would be fine if all the 'auction house' did was provide a way to list my goods and to search for others' goods. If all it did was put us in touch so we could make our own deal, I'd be ok with that. It avoids the hours of eye-bleed and boredom, but maintains the social aspect and the travel etc etc. I'd even be ok if it charged a tax for this simple service so as to encourage ECT-style trading start-to-finish.
BeaverBiscuit said:I'm tired of being seen as a member of the offending team! You guys are the ones asking for something to be added to the game
Both sides feel the same way! Hehe. I feel like nearly every time I suggest I didn't really like EQ-mechanic-X people try and shout me down as a "QOL guy" who is too stupid to see what I want will ruin the game, the genre and possibly end the world.
Both 'sides' need to realise there should not be 'sides'. It is not the case that one side is asking for things to be 'added' and the other likes it 'as it is'. There is no game yet, not where trading is concerned anyway and the game that there is is in Pre-Alpha and still subject to change. Pantheon is a new game.
We need to stop seeing our pre-conceived previous 'ideal' games as what Pantheon *is* or even *should be* and start thinking about what parts are worth discussing from various previous games and what needs change and what completely new ideas might be good.
BeaverBiscuit said:How exactly do NPCs and Bots handling trade help Pantheon tenets, features, and target audience so much better than both ECT and listed compromises here and eslewhere that ECT should just be completely removed with fire?
Rant done...for now=)
Again, the options are not "all NPCs all the time" or "exactly what ECT was". There is scope in-between and you yourself in this very post suggested one.
Let's keep discussing.
The only real conflict I see in these forums is when some people want to discuss things and others want to shut that down. That's the only time when it really becomes 'us and them' because this is a discussion forum. If someone decides some of their favourite mechanics or features are sacrosanct then they literally may as well make their opinion known and then excuse themselves from the discussion.
I know this is a special development forum and the exception I suppose is when Kilsin has said "no point discussing this as we have a pretty firm idea and we want to test before we discuss it further". Even then, as long as people keep that in mind, there's no harm discussing it as long as it remains positive.
While posting about this I've started to break it down in my head. I'm going to post my thoughts here. I'm sure it's been done before, but I'd like to start discussing again rather than arguing.
Want To Sell/Buy/Trade
People need to be able to tell others they have something for sale.
In EQ this was by messaging the /auction channel with something like: -
"WTS 10xInvis Pot 100pp ea | Stein of Moggok 90pp | Cloak of Shadows 50kpp"
"WTB Stone Bracers | Dwarf War armor low level"
"WTT My STR Ring for your WIS Ring"
Spam
So the /auction channel messaging, even with a moderate amount of people in zone, meant your trade would scroll off most people's chat window within seconds. This would become some kind of competition to some to keep theirs visible, which made things worse and sometimes the messages were repeated and scroll by so quick that it made the whole thing near useless.
Search/Order/Filter
To me, this needs to be a basic and fundamental function of any auction system. It could be the only thing needed as it would alleviate most of the difficulty in the traditional /auction channel style.
So you'd need to be able to categorise your sell/buy/trade message
Item Categories
Name.
Type/slot.
Level/quality (if this is a thing. If not perhaps should be able to specify your own appropriate level range?)
Source? (Crafted, looted, bought, other?)
Race/Class restrictions
Location
Etc.
Question: Should items auto-categorise? Should they be overridable?
Services
Let's not leave out crafters! Would it be enough to be able to advertise items you don't actually own, but can make? Giving an additional category of when it could be completed/available?
Personal filters
The ability to filter by "stuff I can use", "stuff my level", "stuff my alt (named) can use"
Storage
Should you be able to leave stuff with an auction house NPC so it can be picked up by the buyer? At what cost?
Transport/Delivery
Should stuff 'move by itself' in some way? At what speed? At what cost? From/To what locations (bank/AH/crafting hall/player)?
Availability
Should access to the trading service, whatever it looks like, be available at all times? From any zone? Only in the zone in which it physically resides? Only if you walk up to a particular NPC?
Communications
Should trading info from the service get to you no matter where you are? Immediately or only when you check?
So... I'm not saying a trading service should have all these areas automated for ultra-convenience. My personal preference, as I've said before, I'd be happy with a searchable/filterable listing service that just puts buyer/seller/crafter in touch and does no automation than that. *Maybe* some kind of storage and *maybe* some kind of delivery *if* it's not immediate and has costs, but if not, fine.
Can anyone think of other aspects to discuss?
Disposalist well said well said indeed. These forums are about suggestions to open up a dialoge to help thats all. No agrument is right or wrong.
The best way to to satisfie everyone is to have a hybrid of all options.
1. let there be a ECT or what ever it turns out to be a place where people can go and sell items one-one
2. local auction houses with a 25% commioson fee added to all sales.( this removes currency from game which is needed )
3.server acution houses ( maybe ) 50% commision fee added toall sales .
Now you have 3 options the first option is time consuming but you get as much currency as you can by trading one on one,maybe someone who has a super cool item will want to spend that hour or two making sure they get top dollar for the effort in getting it.
Options 2 and 3 are easier for people with large amounts crafting componets and what nots. to do so they pay a price and that is a % off what they are listing said item for.
Options 2 and 3 also add a different component to the game and thats the smart person who wants to be a trader who will go to auction house to auction house find good priced items and buy/sell in different places to get top dollar.
When we look at different aspects of a trading ssytem we should look at long term effects not just whats right infront of our faces.
I think people are missing the fact that... even if VR decided to just go straight global auction house for their economy, that still wouldn't preclude people advertising their goods in chat. I see people doing that in WoW, Rift, and WildStar pretty much every time I log into those games.
They may decided that and they may not ...but this game is all about the risk vs reward and there should be penalties in a auction house global or local .If you want to take the ease of using a acution house you should not get the full reward of selling a item for top dollar there should be a penalty involved with it and a % for broker fee or traveling fee or commision fee should be attached with acution houses or brokers.
Naunet said:I think people are missing the fact that... even if VR decided to just go straight global auction house for their economy, that still wouldn't preclude people advertising their goods in chat. I see people doing that in WoW, Rift, and WildStar pretty much every time I log into those games.
Omuteef said:They may decided that and they may not ...but this game is all about the risk vs reward and there should be penalties in a auction house global or local .If you want to take the ease of using a acution house you should not get the full reward of selling a item for top dollar there should be a penalty involved with it and a % for broker fee or traveling fee or commision fee should be attached with acution houses or brokers.
The AH penalty is the exact reason why people will continue to advertise their wares the old fashioned way. I have been involved in countless transactions that were inspired by browsing on the Auction House, including adding sellers to my friends list and messaging them directly when they log in. It's beneficial to send a message to the seller and see if they would be willing to split the AH fees to allow for a better deal for both parties. At the end of the day ... an AH provides information to the masses, and that information allows for a thriving economy. If you want the best value for buying/selling then you will deal with people directly.
While I have not exactly been a fan of the bazaar system on this thread, I have been persuaded that my original preference for a server-wide broker or auction house was misplaced. While having *no* good means to sell or buy things without standing around for hours in an area perhaps far removed from good harvesting or adventuring areas strikes me as clearly wrong, making it too easy to sell or buy from anywhere has also come to strike me as ...less good than it can be.
Advantages of regional sales channels (broker, auction house or other):
1. Makes the world look and feel larger. Encourages us to go to different places and see different things - especially if price differences may be significant.
2. Gives players that enjoy the trading "mini-game" more opportunities for arbitrage and otherwise taking advantage of market inefficiencies.
3. By being less ubiquitous than a server-wide system gives more scope for the bazaar crowd to do their thing without it being a *total* waste of their time.
4. Highly realistic in a world with widely disparate societies that often may not like eachother much, and often slow transportation. I am a great believer in realism in a fantasy universe. Set your basic groundrules to be as wild and crazy as you like but then have everything flow logically from those rules and be consistant therewith.
Thus I would prefer not to have a global sales mechanism.
In terms of chat - whether we have a global sales channel or regional sales channel - I would hope that using other chat channels to sell in would be prohibited. With gentle enforcement focused on education and encouragement rather than threats and mutings and suspensions except in the most egregious cases of insistant spam and violation even after being asked to stop.
tlpauctions uses the /auction channel spam to create a historical searchable list of items. It's been active on every TLP EQ1 server for the past 2 years at least.
It's an extremely simple system that anyone can use or create one of their own. I mention this only because no matter what the 0.001% of players want or Visionary Realms does, this will happen in Pantheon. It doesn't matter if VR puts in a global search or not, the /auction channel(s) will be parsed and searchable. Even if it means having between 1 and 8 different accounts all sitting and listening to zonewide (and/or global) auction spam, it will still happen.
My point? If you/someone want the EC tunnel, it will be parsed and posted on tlpauctions or a similar site. One way or another, players are no longer going to suffer with shopping stall-to-stall or getting ripped off by arbitrage, price fixing, or collusion.
Finally, the problems with an auction house or marketplace turning into a stock market are easily solved with having to travel to escrow agents where the item was placed for sale to pick it up, with no other option for delivery, and percentage based posting fees. There is no shortage of punitive fees that can be applied to a marketplace mechanic to encourage or discourage particular emergent behavior. These are solved logical problems, and have been for years. It's just that most developers don't see the value, and want the convenience to attract a wider demographic. Doesn't mean VR has to do that, and they shouldn't, to prevent monopolies.
disposalist said:Snippedy Snip
Everquest was the only game I know of with trading done in a way I found fun in any sort of lasting way, that doesn't mean I want that trade because it was in EQ! It just means I like that trade style in a game, and I think it fits into Pantheon's features, tenets, and target audience pretty well. I think EQ is a horribly flawed game...fun yes, but flawed.
Now that that is out of the way=)
My argument remains that the compromises you and I suggest have nothing to do with an actual auction house, they are things an auction house does do, but that does not mean they are an auction house. If you implement them, there is no need for an auction house. I am arguing about npcs and bots handling the actual trading for us. I'd like to see a similar approach to what we see VR doing for grouping. The game helps a good deal for us to find each other, the game helps a bit to get us to each other, and other players have tools to help us a ton with both.
In this way, people don't need to spend hours sitting in the tunnel unless they want to, and people who want to sit in the tunnel for hours have a healthy business to look forward to that doesn't directly compete with machines in our "player-driven economy".
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Now more on NPC merchants! Why do they need to only give two gold for a 1k plat item mr "You should not be stuck on how it worked in EQ!" guy!
Why not say, more gold? even plats? why not more plats? Why not, something even greater than plats! This is Pantheon we are talking about. There are so many beautiful open ends we can play with while gloriously forgetting about EQ!
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And why do npc merchants matter to all you other doubters? Cuz they can give fair rates for your stuff, most of the time. You suggest auction houses with 25% commision drops, can't that be a rare, high faction merchant? You suggest 50% commision, can't that be a typical merchant you have typical faction with? So many options! You would finish your trades IMMEDIATELY and get back to the parts of the game that matter to you, IMMEDIATELY. How does that not matter to you?
Now, I'm not saying merchant npcs should do this, but I do think it very much matters to the argument between folks who want to spend a lot of time trading for max profits without seeing the value of their work dimished by people getting too similar profits for far less work, and folks who don't want to sit around trading all day. Because merchant NPCs can certainly ruin it for us and make it amazing for you.
To be clear, I am not saying npc merchants definately should have a big effect on Pantheon. Again, I am not saying npc merchants definately should have a big effect on trade Pantheon. I am saying they could, and therefore are considerations in this argument, especially considering that we WILL have npc merchants. They WILL remove your need to spend time with players in an ECT if getting out of that is your first priority.
I believe I also made it clear that If npc merchants aren't good enough, we have all these other compromises besides Auction Houses and EQ Bazaars that adress the issue of you not getting enough gold for your hard earned items fast enough. I for one, am plenty willing to consider and test these compromises, and hope I can look forward to doing just that in beta.
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Again, arguing that you should have to trade ECT style is ridiculous when even the hardcore grouping of pantheon will have compromises.
Granted, those compromises will not involve npcs and bots doing all of the work for you, but there are compromises. I mentioned them earlier! They will save a ton of time, and they won't push people away from grouping with each other at all! It can even be argued that those compromises will facilitate MORE grouping.
ECT compromises, that don't involve an actual AH or EQ style Bazaar full of bots, do the same stuff. This is why I draw these comparisons. Grouping and trading are completely different. But the effects our "fixxes" have on them are largely the same.
Throw npcs in groups, and player groups tend to disappear, depending on how effective the npcs are. Throw npcs in trade, and player to player trade tends to disappear, depending on how effective the npcs are. Throw in a way for groups to meet, and groups will get together and have fun faster, whether that fun is in getting together, or in what happens after you get together. Throw in a way for traders to meet, and traders will get together and have fun faster, whether that fun is in the actual trade, or in what happens after the trade. I'm all for having more fun with my trading. I'm all against giving all of that fun to npcs who do the trade for me, hence my dislike for auction houses. Hence my total openness to the actual compromises mentioned in this forum over, and over, and over again.
Let's have npcs doing the dirty work for all of the inconveniences that happen AROUND the trade. The time spent will be drastically be reduced, and the fun in trading itself will not be, it's literally win-win. So why should we have an auction house? Why bother balancing the ridiculously harsh commision fees you would need to have on an AH to not significantly damage ECT style trading when you have all of these lovely, far simpler solutions that can fix all of your complaints besides "Trade isn't fun"?
And to address the small time trades, the compromises work for those too. Also, I'm pretty sure that's what npc merchants can definately be for, if immediate results are your slice of pie, even if I personally feel npc merchants should be pretty not-useful.
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Now as for "regional" Auctin houses. Please remember that people tend to gather when they want to do things with people. So yes, you have regional auction houses, and in a realistic world where traveling around the world is really friggin expensive and time consuming, and getting time off from your job is really hard, regional things can certainly stay regional. In a game though? You'll see the ECT, except it will just be people gathered around that one regional auction house in the area most players can access simply, and most people will just be using that auction house. I'll take the time to state that a horrible auction house won't damage ECT at all, but "regional" and "has any commision that isn't ridiculously high", is far from horrible.
I'll also take the time to reiterate that balancing NPC prices just right, so that both AH/npc merchants/eq bazaars and ECT can exist as viable, rewarding options, is REALLY HARD! Unless all of the far simpler compromises listed on this forum face plant somehow, then it is also UNNNECESSARY work do all that balancing.
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@ Dorotea Pantheon will be a niche game, so when you look at (1), a significant portion of the player base, we are talking about a niche player base. Who cares if the grand majority of people think ECT, even with compromises, is extreme? A significant portion of people who are looking at pantheon see words like hardcore, and want to see it applied to every part of the game they want to enjoy as long as possible. The entire Pantheon community are, by VR's plan, extremists.
(2) and again...I am totally ok with compromises that aren't "let npcs and bots trade for me so I can get back to the 'important' parts of the game!". These compromises can definately prevent you from needing to stand in the ECT all day. All I ask is that you don't remove my ability to stand in the ECT all day, and be rewarded reasonably for my effort over those who don't put in effort. Your assumption that trade is not a part of the game that matters is your assumption. I look at the tenets/features/target audience and see a game which could definately make trading very important to me.
P.S. You can't have bazaar bots, but you can have boxxes! Probably won't happen very often, but an interesting thought all the same.
disposalist said:While posting about this I've started to break it down in my head. I'm going to post my thoughts here. I'm sure it's been done before, but I'd like to start discussing again rather than arguing.
Want To Sell/Buy/Trade
People need to be able to tell others they have something for sale.
In EQ this was by messaging the /auction channel with something like: -"WTS 10xInvis Pot 100pp ea | Stein of Moggok 90pp | Cloak of Shadows 50kpp"
"WTB Stone Bracers | Dwarf War armor low level"
"WTT My STR Ring for your WIS Ring"
I think putting your name in a list that is searchable does not remove the option of also doing this. Players who want out fast can search, emotion buyers and folks who just enjoy looking at the market can use both.
So I do agree that we should have lots of options for the communication that don't cut out the actual communication (like a search function with so many boxxes it is more convenient to just ask people).
disposalist said:Spam
So the /auction channel messaging, even with a moderate amount of people in zone, meant your trade would scroll off most people's chat window within seconds. This would become some kind of competition to some to keep theirs visible, which made things worse and sometimes the messages were repeated and scroll by so quick that it made the whole thing near useless.
Be warned that spam is always going to happen. Regular enforcement of the rules is the only real thing VR can directly do about it. If we have a newspaper, guess what, you post your stuff, whos to say noone will spam you or spam chat anyways? Spammers spam.
Beyond that, allow players to have sort options like "the same player cannot show up in trade chat more than 3 times every minute" or some such to indirectly combat the issue. There's always the risk of missing information, but someone who is just annoyed and wants out will probably be happy about missing information, so long as they have a way to find what they want (Hurray search functions!).
disposalist said:Question: Should items auto-categorise? Should they be overridable?
I agree that a search function is useful and don't mind if it is global if delivery is not easy, and don't want it global if delivery is easy. This is more of a "travel is valuable" argument for me then a "trading should be hard" argument, though.
I'd say auto categorise is a must, and there's no issue with override. If you override and lose customers, that's on you. If you override and fill the wrong thing with your stuff to a point that it is malicious, that can be sent to VR. Before it is malicious, it may annoy people, but really, it won't be that bad when a noob puts his bone chips up as enchanting supplies.
You could even send the noob a friendly tell to let him know that he's doin it wrong. Some noobs like it when people help them, and who knows, maybe you make a friend, when he comes back asking you about how to even use this dang complicated search function, and your conversation eventually turns to overly complicated government forms.
disposalist said:Services
Let's not leave out crafters! Would it be enough to be able to advertise items you don't actually own, but can make? Giving an additional category of when it could be completed/available?
I think just an additional category to say that it is something you will need to craft before selling would do. Making it more complicated doesn't really save time since it really is just a few sentences to figure out exactly when an item will be available. Hurray simple communication!
disposalist said:Storage
Should you be able to leave stuff with an auction house NPC so it can be picked up by the buyer? At what cost?
I feel like stuff would get forgotten with this sort of system. A lot. Especially by me. "Hey I logged off and don't remember which npc you left that with, can you remind me?" *Silence*
So basically, na, I'd choose delivery over this despite wanting travel to be a big thing in pantheon.
disposalist said:Transport/Delivery
Should stuff 'move by itself' in some way? At what speed? At what cost? From/To what locations (bank/AH/crafting hall/player)?
Personally I'd say no. I think travel should be a common and hard to do thing in Pantheon. But honestly, if delivery is what keeps an AH out of the game, I'll trust my delivery goods to pack horse npcs all day.
I do think it should be expensive, considering how traveling yourself will probably be expensive if you do it fast. I do think items should take a little while to be delivered, because even fast traveling in pantheon will probably take time, and travel is what you are replacing with delivery. I think that if delivery is possible, delivery between players is best, just for alt character simplicity.
disposalist said:Availability
Should access to the trading service, whatever it looks like, be available at all times? From any zone? Only in the zone in which it physically resides? Only if you walk up to a particular NPC?
Available at all times.
I'm honestly just going to say this : if it keeps the AH away, I love it.
Barring that argument: I prefer regional. It'd be nice, and immersive in a way, to have an area I go to for trade, and all the other areas I go to for everything else.
Having the search function within the region should not inconvenience the guys who wanna stop trading asap too much imo, and again, I kinda like the idea of not thinking about trade when I'm not trading. I don't really understand the arguments for lining up trades while I'm in a raid or something, all it does is persuade me to leave the raid even faster than I would already normally be tempted to leave my raidmates.
No, I don't have self control. I would definately be constantly on that stupid search function everywhere I am if it was global, to the detriment of content.
I don't like the idea of an npc with godlike knowledge about weird things like who is selling what. It's just weird, unnecessary, unnimmersive imo. Let godlike knowledge about weird things come from the UI where it belongs.
disposalist said:Communications
Should trading info from the service get to you no matter where you are? Immediately or only when you check?
As I mentioned before I personally prefer regional.
I think info should only be available when you check, I don't really want text notifications to be a thing in Pantheon, it would break immersion pretty hard and too much handholding. Even Auction Houses in games full of people who hate inconvenient trade don't do this, as far as I know.
disposalist said:Can anyone think of other aspects to discuss?
If the search function is global, perhaps add it to the Pantheon App? That way you can only log in if you see a trade you actually want to try and make, if you don't have much time.
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I like the idea of being able to give an item over to a player's care without making it entirely theirs, somehow, perhaps by putting a time limit on it or some such. This way, you could entrust an item to a player who delivers the item for you, or even sells the item for you, without worrying about them stealing. This sort of system would need a lot of anti troll work put in, but I do think it is definately worth considering. It would steal work from npcs and foster relationships in a way that is doable for many, and perhaps even enjoyable to weirdos like me.
EDIT: Thinking about this system if it was implemented alone it would have many issues the ECT has with QOLers. Logging in at unpopular times n all that. It would probably be best implemented as an option that is cheaper for the buyer but still worth a great deal to the guy doing the work.
@BeaverBiscuit I'm glad we've come to an understanding.
As for the vendor giving fair prices, yeah, you're right of course to call me on my EQ thinking! I think that pricing would be very tricky to make fair, though. You'd have to base it on reliable sales data and the only way to get that is through some kind of automated auction house that we don't really want hehe. Maybe VR could figure some system out.
I think you're right about a Pantheon trade app outside the game - like many things, if VR don't do it then some 3rd party will and I really would prefer it to be 'in keeping' with Pantheon style/lore/etc and not some ad-speckled website trying to get me to subscribe to a paid version to get the best trading functions once it becomes de facto.
Also really interesting thoughts about player delivery. It would be really interesting for the NPC merchant to give out 'quests' for players to deliver sold items between players! You wouldn't even need the actually items to be 'at risk' as you could give them an unopenable bag which, when given to the target, effectively performs an instant transfer of the actual sold item. Or maybe you could just take the bag to another region's trade merchant NPC. Or maybe to a bank? Players could make money (and XP? Hmm maybe) as 'postmen' for the trading system.
Whenever you are leaving town, check in on the trade merchant to see if there are any deliveries where you are headed...
My big problem with AH style set ups is that it is too easy to mainpulate the entire server market when 99 percent of given commodity is listed there. Once you control a good portion of the commodity, you can set the price to be MUCH higher then it is worth ( not be vendor standards, by player standards ) and you will still sell a majority of your commodity that you hoarded.
This is part of why I dislike AHs, plus it takes out a large portion of getting to know more people via trading and chatting about x commodities.
What I would suggest for people who dislike the idea of selling items and making trades "in person" is to make friends with someone who enjoys it. Then give them things to sell for a cut of the money. Then you are happy, and they are happy and you made a new friend in the process. Player interaction is better imo then ways to keep players from wanting to interact, aka click buyout on auction, walk to mailbox and collect goods.
Regarding player delivery options: It's an interesting thought exercise to think about an EVE-style contract system (both buy/sell and courier contracts) in Pantheon. To make it work you'd need to have regionalized storage to work with. So let's say you bought a set of armor (via contract) in Syronai's Rest. But you're at an outpost in Whitethaw. You could set up a courier contract for someone to bring the armor from Syronai's Rest to your local bank. You put up the price you're willing to pay for the delivery, and a collateral fee that the person completing the contract must post in order to accept it. They would then get a box in their inventory, which they deliver to the banker in your outpost to complete the contract. If they successfully complete the contract within the allotted time, you get your armor and they get their collateral back as well as the delivery fee. If they don't complete the contract, you lose the armor, but you get their collateral.
I have absolutely NO idea if this would really work in Pantheon. It worked in EVE because EVE literally had thousands of stations where items could be located, and so transporting goods was serious business. Even then playes had to be careful about how they posted contracts to prevent getting scammed out of goods, and which contracts they accepted, because some were outright traps. But, it's an interesting idea to think about.