At launch I'd rather not see an AH at all. It would be neat to see a local (per continent) caravan come through once a month or maybe twice a month for a weekend (friday night - monday morning) where it's basically an AH. Or if VR comes up with something else that does not involve an AH.
I'm not sure why people are comparing P99 ECT to Original EQ... Original EQ everything was new. You would AUC items in any zone you were in, especially starter zones, and cities. ECT didn't pop up immediately. It evolved into people meeting in Freeport and then the tunnels because of Faction. Let the game GROW & evolve.
You realize that even in WoW. The game that shall not be compared... a game that had automatic buying and selling via a world wide (or faction wide) auction house... STILL had a trade channel where people would trade from. Deals were still made face to face. Tradeskillers were still able to create a name for themselves by centrally locating themselves and selling their services.
The idea that an Auction House is going to eliminate player to player interaction is utterly ridiculous and just another way for people to try and "live and die by the EQ way".
People who have time will still trade face to face, those that dont will use the AH. I dont see how this is not a compromise that all parties can live with.
Porygon said:You realize that even in WoW. The game that shall not be compared... a game that had automatic buying and selling via a world wide (or faction wide) auction house... STILL had a trade channel where people would trade from. Deals were still made face to face. Tradeskillers were still able to create a name for themselves by centrally locating themselves and selling their services.
The idea that an Auction House is going to eliminate player to player interaction is utterly ridiculous and just another way for people to try and "live and die by the EQ way".
People who have time will still trade face to face, those that dont will use the AH. I dont see how this is not a compromise that all parties can live with.
This notion that people who have played dozens of MMO's, have watched and studied the way certain mechanics have broad impacts, have participated in many alpha and beta phases of games and watched different things be tested, succeed and fail, and who somehow are also wholly and completely invested in nothing but an EQ clone is more than tiresome. It's lazy. Enough already.
Porygon said:You realize that even in WoW. The game that shall not be compared... a game that had automatic buying and selling via a world wide (or faction wide) auction house... STILL had a trade channel where people would trade from. Deals were still made face to face. Tradeskillers were still able to create a name for themselves by centrally locating themselves and selling their services.
The idea that an Auction House is going to eliminate player to player interaction is utterly ridiculous and just another way for people to try and "live and die by the EQ way".
People who have time will still trade face to face, those that dont will use the AH. I dont see how this is not a compromise that all parties can live with.
An auction house will drastically lower player to player interaction. That's a fact. An AH will not eliminate it, but I never said it would. There's a lot of posts I see where people end up making things up or taking what people are saying, to an extreme. I wish that would stop on these forums.
EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. Has 24/7 auction houses. They also have crafters offering their services in OOC and AUC or a trade channel, that's not going to change. So why not be open to something different?
Feyshtey said:This notion that people who have played dozens of MMO's, have watched and studied the way certain mechanics have broad impacts, have participated in many alpha and beta phases of games and watched different things be tested, succeed and fail, and who somehow are also wholly and completely invested in nothing but an EQ clone is more than tiresome. It's lazy. Enough already.
Funny you end with enough already. Because the assumption, that you are claiming needed to end, only exists because that's what the majority of peoples arguments relate to on these forums.
Enough already. Let's develop a new game for 2018, not one for 1999..
Kastor said:An auction house will drastically lower player to player interaction. That's a fact. An AH will not eliminate it, but I never said it would. There's a lot of posts I see where people end up making things up or taking what people are saying, to an extreme. I wish that would stop on these forums.
EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. Has 24/7 auction houses. They also have crafters offering their services in OOC and AUC or a trade channel, that's not going to change. So why not be open to something different?
So if every mmo has these features that allow for players that don't have time to sell their wares in person all day... and also allows players that want to have face to face interactions... why is there a need to change it.
If you eliminate auction houses a majority of the players won't be able to effectively trade... and the players that have that time and enjoy it will have a much better time doing so..
So I ask you. Are you so selfish that implementing a mechanic that hurts a vast majority of players is so important to you solely because you enjoy that interaction, is that really how you want this game designed.
Its ok if you feel this way. But be honest and admit it. Because the only way I see you arguing that auction houses shouldnt exist, is by admitting you are selfish and ONLY WANT face to face trading and don't care how it negatively affects other players.
Porygon said:Kastor said:An auction house will drastically lower player to player interaction. That's a fact. An AH will not eliminate it, but I never said it would. There's a lot of posts I see where people end up making things up or taking what people are saying, to an extreme. I wish that would stop on these forums.
EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. Has 24/7 auction houses. They also have crafters offering their services in OOC and AUC or a trade channel, that's not going to change. So why not be open to something different?
So if every mmo has these features that allow for players that don't have time to sell their wares in person all day... and also allows players that want to have face to face interactions... why is there a need to change it.
If you eliminate auction houses a majority of the players won't be able to effectively trade... and the players that have that time and enjoy it will have a much better time doing so..
So I ask you. Are you so selfish that implementing a mechanic that hurts a vast majority of players is so important to you solely because you enjoy that interaction, is that really how you want this game designed.
Its ok if you feel this way. But be honest and admit it. Because the only way I see you arguing that auction houses shouldnt exist, is by admitting you are selfish and ONLY WANT face to face trading and don't care how it negatively affects other players.
How long you devote to selling items is totally up to you. Just like how long you adventure. You can effectively trade without doing so for 8 hours a day. Personal trading doesn't hurt a vast majority of the players at all. If they didn't choose to do so, that's on them. That would be like me saying " Man, I can't party and earn exp as long as that other guy. They had better make it so I can earn 95 percent of the exp they did because they invested 8 hours adventuring and I only adventured one." It negatively effects me to only have 1/8th the exp even though they put in 8 times the effort. The same goes for trading. Or tradeskilling, or raiding for that matter. If you don't have the time to perform x activity as along as someone else, why should you get anywhere near the same rewards ( exp, money, tradeskills, quest progression )?
LucasBlackstone said:How long you devote to selling items is totally up to you. Just like how long you adventure. You can effectively trade without doing so for 8 hours a day. Personal trading doesn't hurt a vast majority of the players at all. If they didn't choose to do so, that's on them. That would be like me saying " Man, I can't party and earn exp as long as that other guy. They had better make it so I can earn 95 percent of the exp they did because they invested 8 hours adventuring and I only adventured one." It negatively effects me to only have 1/8th the exp even though they put in 8 times the effort. The same goes for trading. Or tradeskilling, or raiding for that matter. If you don't have the time to perform x activity as along as someone else, why should you get anywhere near the same rewards ( exp, money, tradeskills, quest progression )?
You're absolutely right, but I don't think anyone considers their ability to sell items on the same level as leveling up or raiding. I also can't imagine, once again, how much having the ability to list items on an auction house is going to impact the rest of the community.
I just think the negatives of not having one outweighs the positives.
Porygon said:
You're absolutely right, but I don't think anyone considers their ability to sell items on the same level as leveling up or raiding. I also can't imagine, once again, how much having the ability to list items on an auction house is going to impact the rest of the community.
I just think the negatives of not having one outweighs the positives.
There are most certainly people that consider themselves skilled at buying/selling/bartering. If you understand the market, if you know what's currently in demand, if you remember people and guilds looking for items, then you stand a much greater chance of making deals that benefit you to a higher degree. And, when there's an auction house that's easily accessible and lists out the goind rates for everyone it dilutes the ability of someone with skill to make good deals because there's a baseline out there any idiot can access to review values.
[edit] And the AH by its nature influences prices of some kinds of goods. When there's a AH with 1000 smithed swords of whatever on it, the price naturally declines. Lacking an AH the percieved (if not real) availability of an item is increased. Lacking an AH, crafters who choose to market their goods stand a much higher chance of actually making a profit as opposed to crafters who have to put up their wares right next to 50 other crafters producing the same thing.
Nothing in the MMO has more broad impact than the economy. It touches everything eventually, and is absolutely essential to longevity of a title.
Porygon said:Kastor said:An auction house will drastically lower player to player interaction. That's a fact. An AH will not eliminate it, but I never said it would. There's a lot of posts I see where people end up making things up or taking what people are saying, to an extreme. I wish that would stop on these forums.
EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. Has 24/7 auction houses. They also have crafters offering their services in OOC and AUC or a trade channel, that's not going to change. So why not be open to something different?
So if every mmo has these features that allow for players that don't have time to sell their wares in person all day... and also allows players that want to have face to face interactions... why is there a need to change it.
If you eliminate auction houses a majority of the players won't be able to effectively trade... and the players that have that time and enjoy it will have a much better time doing so..
So I ask you. Are you so selfish that implementing a mechanic that hurts a vast majority of players is so important to you solely because you enjoy that interaction, is that really how you want this game designed.
Its ok if you feel this way. But be honest and admit it. Because the only way I see you arguing that auction houses shouldnt exist, is by admitting you are selfish and ONLY WANT face to face trading and don't care how it negatively affects other players.
LOL at this guy. Again with making things up and taking it to an extreme. I see having no or a limited auction house *** AT RELEASE *** HELPING the community. I'm NOT a "trader" like how the ECT evolved into and this would NOT benefit me 1% more than any other player like me. Back in the day did I go to Freeport & ECT and sell a few items?? Yes, hell yes I did. And it took 5 minutes because I didn't sell it for extremely top dollar. Eliminating AH's does not make the majority of players inefficient at trading. It's just a different way. "Trading 10 bone chips for 10 firefly wings." That's not hard to type. OR WTB "Dragoon Dirk pst".
Kastor said:Porygon said:You realize that even in WoW. The game that shall not be compared... a game that had automatic buying and selling via a world wide (or faction wide) auction house... STILL had a trade channel where people would trade from. Deals were still made face to face. Tradeskillers were still able to create a name for themselves by centrally locating themselves and selling their services.
The idea that an Auction House is going to eliminate player to player interaction is utterly ridiculous and just another way for people to try and "live and die by the EQ way".
People who have time will still trade face to face, those that dont will use the AH. I dont see how this is not a compromise that all parties can live with.
An auction house will drastically lower player to player interaction. That's a fact. An AH will not eliminate it, but I never said it would. There's a lot of posts I see where people end up making things up or taking what people are saying, to an extreme. I wish that would stop on these forums.
EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. Has 24/7 auction houses. They also have crafters offering their services in OOC and AUC or a trade channel, that's not going to change. So why not be open to something different?
Bit rich don't you think, asking someone to be open minded to new things when you think the only system worth considering is the EQ one? This sort of player interaction is extremely low quality interaction and no game is worse off without it. It's precicely WHY every single other MMO has 24x7 AHs.
How about you have an open mind and start thinking about other slightly less mind numbingly tedious and frustrating as trading, in which players can interact? I'm sure there are much more fun constructs that people can rally around and talk to each other.
Idrial said:Kastor said:Porygon said:You realize that even in WoW. The game that shall not be compared... a game that had automatic buying and selling via a world wide (or faction wide) auction house... STILL had a trade channel where people would trade from. Deals were still made face to face. Tradeskillers were still able to create a name for themselves by centrally locating themselves and selling their services.
The idea that an Auction House is going to eliminate player to player interaction is utterly ridiculous and just another way for people to try and "live and die by the EQ way".
People who have time will still trade face to face, those that dont will use the AH. I dont see how this is not a compromise that all parties can live with.
An auction house will drastically lower player to player interaction. That's a fact. An AH will not eliminate it, but I never said it would. There's a lot of posts I see where people end up making things up or taking what people are saying, to an extreme. I wish that would stop on these forums.
EVERY. SINGLE. MMO. Has 24/7 auction houses. They also have crafters offering their services in OOC and AUC or a trade channel, that's not going to change. So why not be open to something different?
Bit rich don't you think, asking someone to be open minded to new things when you think the only system worth considering is the EQ one? This sort of player interaction is extremely low quality interaction and no game is worse off without it. It's precicely WHY every single other MMO has 24x7 AHs.
How about you have an open mind and start thinking about other slightly less mind numbingly tedious and frustrating as trading, in which players can interact? I'm sure there are much more fun constructs that people can rally around and talk to each other.
I dont think the only system worth considering is EQs. Where did you see me say that? Oh, that's right. You didn't see me say that.
Porygon said:Feyshtey said:This notion that people who have played dozens of MMO's, have watched and studied the way certain mechanics have broad impacts, have participated in many alpha and beta phases of games and watched different things be tested, succeed and fail, and who somehow are also wholly and completely invested in nothing but an EQ clone is more than tiresome. It's lazy. Enough already.
Funny you end with enough already. Because the assumption, that you are claiming needed to end, only exists because that's what the majority of peoples arguments relate to on these forums.
Enough already. Let's develop a new game for 2018, not one for 1999..
Again incorrect. Feyshtey pretyy well spelled itout. I was going to comment along the same lines but read his post and thought he had said it a lot better than I could have.
. But since you persist... MANY of us including myself have shown/explained to you how this "only because it was in EQ" excuse you use is incorrect.
So he's right. Stop already, nobody's buying it and you're just making yourself look foolish by continuing to say it after you have been shown otherwise.
Just to settle down some of the retoric that's been getting tossed around here. Please remember that VR has already made a decision on this and will be testing it when the time is right. Very little that is said in a thread like this is going to change anything until they have a chance to test their system and get feedback on it after we've had a chance to play with it.
So getting all riled up and pushing each others buttons isn't really helping. We can discuss pro's and con's, but let's not start calling each other names or suggesting people are foolish because they disagree with you.
An ideal system for me:
1) Regional Auction Houses. (Each starter city has an auction house that falls under a regional umbrella. Regions are separated by continent.)
2) 15-25% seller fee, depending on faction.
3) Maximum of 10-20 listings per player, per auction house, depending on the size of our consignment box(es). (Boxes would be player crafted.)
4) Meaningful travel is a must. Players can only teleport to areas (on the same continent) that we have already traveled and attuned to (wizard spires and druid rings). Intercontinental travel should require a boat ride, and a boat pass. (Each port authority has it's own access quest.)
5) Expansions should not release a new continent that invalidates those that came before it. New continents are fine, and they can even have their own regional auction house, but existing continents should remain relevant throughout the entirety of the game. (I would never want to see a global AH.)
6) Player outposts where we can set up our own shop (only one at any given time) with the ability to hire an NPC merchant that can sell our merchandise. (Limited to 10-20 items depending on the quality of our outpost.)
oneADseven said:An ideal system for me:
1) Regional Auction Houses. (Each starter city has an auction house that falls under a regional umbrella. Regions are separated by continent.)
2) 15-25% seller fee, depending on faction.
3) Maximum of 10-20 listings per player, per auction house, depending on the size of their consignment box(es). (Boxes would be player crafted.)
4) Meaningful travel is a must. Players can only teleport to areas (on the same continent) that they have already traveled and attuned to (wizard spires and druid rings). Intercontinental travel should require a boat ride, and a boat pass. (Each port authority has it's own access quest.)
There's some good ideas! I like your thinking. For me;
1. Regional Auction Houses - My caravan idea of rolling in once or twice a month and staying for the weekend might be too limited for peoples liking. But if AH's are in at release, make them per city only (not continent) and have the Auction House be built through a giant city quest involving massive tradeskill items and supplies. Players would be involved bringing wood, stone, etc. or whatever. So those who want it more than others, work harder towards it :) Also, this could evolve down the road to be a continent AH.
2. Listing fees - Have high fee's like that to promote selling/trading outside of AH. Also, base the listing fee on Faction per city as well as PLAYER Charisma stat. Sorry Ogre's haha (obviously CHA stat isn't as important as faction in this regard)
3. I like this. I don't think we will have a crap ton of loot and tradeskill items like in the other MMO's out there.
4. Travel - I'd like to see very limited travel options at first, like no teleportation besides classes who have it. Maybe we could obtain an ability from The Seekers to gate back to our bind location once every 8 hours IRL or something? After finding these druid rings and wizard spires, you can attune to ONLY 1 spire or druid ring at a time and an NPC could teleport (wizard guild NPC) you or ride a giant bird ( Druid guild NPC & the animal is region/continent specific) there for a fee? Or a player Wiz or Druid could do it. I'm not sure they will get group gate / travel spells at later levels, but its probable. I like the intercontinental idea with having to take the boat and need a boat pass.
Kastor said:oneADseven said:An ideal system for me:
1) Regional Auction Houses. (Each starter city has an auction house that falls under a regional umbrella. Regions are separated by continent.)
2) 15-25% seller fee, depending on faction.
3) Maximum of 10-20 listings per player, per auction house, depending on the size of their consignment box(es). (Boxes would be player crafted.)
4) Meaningful travel is a must. Players can only teleport to areas (on the same continent) that they have already traveled and attuned to (wizard spires and druid rings). Intercontinental travel should require a boat ride, and a boat pass. (Each port authority has it's own access quest.)
There's some good ideas! I like your thinking. For me;
1. Regional Auction Houses - My caravan idea of rolling in once or twice a month and staying for the weekend might be too limited for peoples liking. But if AH's are in at release, make them per city only (not continent) and have the Auction House be built through a giant city quest involving massive tradeskill items and supplies. Players would be involved bringing wood, stone, etc. or whatever. So those who want it more than others, work harder towards it :) Also, this could evolve down the road to be a continent AH.
2. Listing fees - Have high fee's like that to promote selling/trading outside of AH. Also, base the listing fee on Faction per city as well as PLAYER Charisma stat. Sorry Ogre's haha (obviously CHA stat isn't as important as faction in this regard)
3. I like this. I don't think we will have a crap ton of loot and tradeskill items like in the other MMO's out there.
4. Travel - I'd like to see very limited travel options at first, like no teleportation besides classes who have it. Maybe we could obtain an ability from The Seekers to gate back to our bind location once every 8 hours IRL or something? After finding these druid rings and wizard spires, you can attune to ONLY 1 spire or druid ring at a time and an NPC could teleport (wizard guild NPC) you or ride a giant bird ( Druid guild NPC & the animal is region/continent specific) there for a fee? Or a player Wiz or Druid could do it. I'm not sure they will get group gate / travel spells at later levels, but its probable. I like the intercontinental idea with having to take the boat and need a boat pass.
Awesome ideas!
We have all seen the sale of items and crafting mats from different MMO's and how they faced this challenge. Even EQ-1 had the Nexus.... Zone in-Stare at floor-walk to dot-unhide char models-load char in front of you-click foot......wait.....click foot of invisible pet in front of the trader you are trying to buy from... scream F$#@.... hide char models again, type in /tar "player"... Then there was EQ2 where you had a vendor, then a board, then a post to click on which was great, until 57 other people with mounts had the same idea you had and /tar broker didn't work.
I still say my favorite was Star Wars Galaxies!!! You get done killing Jedi, Tusken Raiders, and Corellian Corvettes and decide to go to bed, but first you have to buy a few krayt pearls and other mats so you can make a new staff, crystal, saber etc..... So you fly to Naboo, Dant, Yavin IV, Tat and the next thing you know its 4AM and you struggle with should I go to bed or just try to stay awake 2 more hours to go to work with a red-bull and a prayer.
In any argument, the AH / Trader / Broker / Market is a necessary evil. You WILL have people use it honestly. You WILL have people try to glitch and find ways to cheat money from it, --eg. the Stein of Mogguk-EQ2. And you WILL have morons, I mean players who spend 15 bucks a month to do nothing but buy and sell goods to inflate and control market pricing of comodoties. In the end people like myself, who work, live life and play in between need an AH to sell the stuff I can't do whilst in game actively.
Red
I dont really feel like I have a horse in this race, since I personally do not have a preferrence on this issue. Maintaining the economy will be a job either way in my opinion. The only thing I could add is this. If there is an auction house, what if it were only open during the day, leaving anyone anyone wanting to sell during the evening/nighttime left with the more hands-on approach. Obviously this will only work of course if day/night cycle doesn't follow RL pattern like some games. Just a thought.
Zorkon said:Again incorrect. Feyshtey pretyy well spelled itout. I was going to comment along the same lines but read his post and thought he had said it a lot better than I could have.
. But since you persist... MANY of us including myself have shown/explained to you how this "only because it was in EQ" excuse you use is incorrect.
So he's right. Stop already, nobody's buying it and you're just making yourself look foolish by continuing to say it after you have been shown otherwise.
Calling someone foolish is just childish.
You're wrong when you claim players have spelled it out. Cause they haven't. Noone has come in and given a solution other than (recently 1ad7)[disregarding the caravan idea because it's just bad].
The reasons that were given were "it eliminates face to face transactions" .... no it doesn't. I proved that when I referenced WoWs system of trading which still to this day involves a healthy amount of face to face transactions.
The other reason was something along the lines of "it ruins the economy by putting everyone on an equal playing field" ... I'm sorry, what? So you're mad that you can't sell your item for 150% of what it's actually worth because other people can see what the actual value is... you're a real gem in the community. AHs put traders on equal playing fields when it comes to pricing which is not a bad thing. You will always have players that don't care what an item is worth and list it for far less, this would happen without an AH also. I know because I always sold my items for 75% value so I could gtfo of the tunnel quicker. Secondly, if 100 crafted swords go up, yes the price will drop.. but that's the same as of 6 people are all auctioning the same item for the same price. Eventually 1 of them will go lower... and you'll see what the actual value of the item is.
So again, no. You haven't spelled out any reasons why you want this feature other than the ones I listed above, which i think we can all agree are pretty weak.
I will try reiterate the reasons I think auction houses are bad for the game again. Though honestly it doesn't matter since people are diehard set on their views for both sides of the fence and since they are far off from being implemented and receiving tester feedback in the game itself.
A) Auction Houses promote less player interaction. It doesn't matter if you can still trade face to face, many lazy players who want instant gratification will click a button to get 10 wolf pelts instead of interact with another player. I think player interaction with people besides those you may adventure with ( people in your guild or your level range when you go to x zone to adventure as examples ) is a good thing.
B) Auction Houses are bad for the economy for two reasons. First, when people get a lot of money to spend, they will dominate the market and overprice things that people need for basics. Auction Houses promote the abuse of the economy because people can instantly buy all of a commodity and re-price it at their leisure and whatever overinflated value they want. Again, because many people are lazy and won't go gather their own resources, they will instead fuel this cycle of overpriced goods. While it is possible to replicate this with in-person trading, it is MUCH more difficult to do so because said traders have to be on at the same time the other traders are on, go find them, and then purchase said goods and transport said goods if it is not done near the banks. I am fine with people spending hours trading and putting the work into making a fortune, just like I am fine with people putting work into crafting and making a fortune, or putting work into raiding and getting rewards. I am not fine with people getting a bunch of money given to them by their guild, then they sit in the AH for 30 seconds, and now possess all the iron ore that was put up on the AH, and resell it for 10 times the price. This is EXACTLY what AHs promote. I know personally from doing it in WoW all the time and being gold capped all the time and knowing many others who did the same.
Second, people who sell in game currency often facilitate auction houses to make things easier. This is a minor point because it is much easier to work around a one time trade of coin, but I would rather see things more difficult for people who violate gaming policy by buying in game currency, rather then gold farmer x puts up 1 wolf pelt for 10000 platinum. Then jerk gold buyer y, at their leisure, clicks 1 button and instant payout. This second point again is much more minor because nothing will actually stop people from selling in game currency unless VR can and will monitor trades involving a lot of coin. I personally don't know how hard it is to do that but I assume if it was easy, most mmo's would do it and that is why it is not done.
So please possibly re-think if an AH is actually a good thing or not. Don't be afraid to make friends in Pantheon by trading with people. Or make friends with people who like to trade, and let them do the "dirty work" of trading for you. I've seen that happen in games too. There are more wheeler and dealer types out there then you may expect. Give them a list of things you want and what you are willing to spend. Then go to work, go adventure, go to sleep, or whatever else you want to do besides trading in an mmo. Then collect your goods from your friend when you see them.