philo said:@187 Thanks for the clarification. You addressed everything except the thing I was really wondering about. The thing I stated was my main question:
"I guess my main question is: If that is the case, what is the reasoning behind it? Why would you have it implemented that way (as a toggle) instead of just having it be any other character on the account that gives benefits to another, specific, character?
Wouldn't having it be a separate character alleviate those issues about skipping content etc? Seems like clunky implementation but I'm probably missing something?"
The reason I would like to see it done this way is because again, I have zero desire to roll an alternate character. I place an extremely high value on efficiency and want to dedicate myself to the full progression of my main, and only character. I want to learn every language, grind every faction ... and there is no way I can dedicate myself to doing this for multiple characters. By allowing me to reroll through progeny, I have the opportunity to contribute to the releveling process, (and all it's benefits to the server) without having to take my attention away from my primary character. I would be able to circle back and enjoy any content I may have missed on my initial run but instead of being on an alt (don't want) or mentoring (not consistent, don't want my sessions to be predicated around having a mentor body), I can enjoy that content at an appropriate level and at my own pace. I am a completionist, like many others out there, but I don't want to play the "completionist" style for multiple characters.
Feyshtey said:I guess I just don't understand what the point is.
Currently the plan seems to be that mentoring will be available to delevel in order to play with friends not at your level.
Also, currently the plan seems to be to retire a character in order to start an alt with some kind of a minor (?) incentive . (I oppose this plan, obviously, since I started the thread.)
I think Raidan is not suggesting that a Progeny character should be able to up-level to play his Progeny 10 character with his friends non-Progeny 25. I think he's asking about the logic behind a system that says "yes, you had a level 58 you could have de-leveled to play with your 25 friend. But our system recommends you start over and if you want to play with your level 25 friend they should mentor down to 10 to play with you (a more seasoned player.). "
People seem to be addressing the system like it will be the only way to create an alternative character. What you are saying is no different than if the more seasoned player created an alt and the friend deleveled to play with the more experienced player. What you are stating has nothing to do with progeny.
oneADseven said:The toggle allows you to switch between parent and progeny. You would essentially be the same character, but can only rotate between parent/progeny while in a town. The point of having the toggle and requiring you to be in town is to prevent people from playing on the parent character and then switching to the progeny while adventuring. This could lead to circumvention of content and have other potentially negative implications. In a nutshell, you would toggle your level. Upon switching, players may need to change their gear (especially if playing a different class), adjust their bags (make sure you have any relevant quest items, consumables), visit the bank, etc.
...
Same inventory, same bank, same name (except maybe a generational accentuate). I'm not sure if the base stats would have to be the same, but I don't think so. If someone wants to progeny into a different archetype it wouldn't make sense that they carry over the exact same stats. As far as the point of doing it ... look at the progeny character as a vessel. It's a means to an end. It's a fresh character that you can relevel, that upon getting to max, will be merged with the parent character. They would share the same faction, completed quests, etc.
As far as benefits to the game ... they are numerous. Basically any benefit that has ever been listed. You take a player who would otherwise be playing on a max level toon, and get them to relevel. It keeps the lower level zones populated. It gives players who would otherwise potentially burn out with the "limited end-game" an opportunity to continue progressing their character horizontally. It gives added replay value/prestige to your veteran players. It allows a player to dedicate themselves exclusively to one character, but still be able to contribute to the world in a way that is similar to those who roll alts.
You are correct that this would be similar to the mentoring system. The biggest difference is that there are long term progression benefits, and that it doesen't require you to actually mentor another player. If that player logs off, you don't need to find another person to mentor. You can continue playing your progeny character until you're satisfied. I hope we're closer to being on the same page now. At the end of the day, this is all just speculation. I appreciate you taking the time to try and understand the thought process behind how this particular angle could work. It's very similar to how sub-classing worked in FFXI, but the rewards are nowhere near as powerful.
I would not be a fan of this, I don't want a watered down multi-classing system (FFXIV) or sub-class (FFXI). I like having alts of all different races and classes, yet any system that allows a single character to do multiple classes on one character pretty much behoove the player to do so thanks to the benefits & convienence surrounding quests, factions, inventory, banking, crafting, travel, twinking, etc.
Depending on how raids/end game group dungeons work, the other issue I haven't seen touched upon is: without sacrificing a main for progeny you add even more congestion to end-game lockout related or contested content. Raiders will keep raiding/contesting with their main while they level their alt on downtime and when that alt gets maxed I would bet a lot of those raiders will be double dipping, especially the hardcore raiders. Contest/lockout with main then do it again on the alt, which depending on how the spawns work or how contested any content ends up is a net negative for a server/players as a whole. Unless lockout timers are account wide of course.
Sorry Iksar, I didn't mean to imply that the rewards would dip into multi-classing. When I said "the rewards are nowhere near as powerful" perhaps "the rewards could be completely different" would have been more appropriate. I mentioned 5 possible rewards on the last page, and none of them touch on multi-classing. When I said it was very similar to the FFXI system, I was referencing the toggle, not the rewards.
oneADseven said:Sorry Iksar, I didn't mean to imply that the rewards would dip into multi-classing. When I said "the rewards are nowhere near as powerful" perhaps "the rewards could be completely different" would have been more appropriate. I mentioned 5 possible rewards on the last page, and none of them touch on multi-classing. When I said it was very similar to the FFXI system, I was referencing the toggle, not the rewards.
Having all classes on one character is what I was referencing with watered down multi-classing.
Understood. The system I proposed would not allow that to be possible. At best, you could have two classes available on the same character, but they could never both be max level, and you could never swap them outside of town. Once the progeny gets to max level, they are merged with the parent. The player would have to choose at that time if they want to stick with their original class, or potentially switch to the class of the progeny character. You bring up an interesting point about players being able to kill mobs with lockout timers multiple times, but that is an issue with alts, not this interpretation of progeny. Since the progeny/parent are essentially the same character, they would share lockouts. Progeny could be a great tool to alleviate both multiboxing and content monopolization.
oneADseven said:Understood. The system I proposed would not allow that to be possible. At best, you could have two classes available on the same character, but they could never both be max level, and you could never swap them outside of town. Once the progeny gets to max level, they are merged with the parent. The player would have to choose at that time if they want to stick with their original class, or potentially switch to the class of the progeny character. You bring up an interesting point about players being able to kill mobs with lockout timers multiple times, but that is an issue with alts, not progeny. Since the progeny/parent are essentially the same character, they would share lockouts. Progeny could be a great tool to alleviate both multiboxing and content monopolization.
Would that not the same thing as sacrificing a character if at the end of it you have to choose to get rid of an entire class/"character" in a merge?
"You bring up an interesting point about players being able to kill mobs with lockout timers multiple times, but that is an issue with alts, not progeny."
Yes and no. No in that if progeny has a player sacrifice their main for empowered new character then they aren't an alt and wouldn't be double dipping (since they'd have no other maxed character). Yes it's an alt issue if a player just has alts outside of progeny but that spills over into a progeny issue if players don't lose a main to have an empowered alt and progeny succeeeds in encouraging more players to have alts.
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
-It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance
- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
~It opens up contested raid mobs for players who might not normally get a shot at them because the min/max/hardcore players are leveling to earn progeny rewards.
~It frees up exp and item camps that would normally be monopolized by dispersing the playerbase throughout the levels
~It provides players long term incentives that keep them playing when they might otherwise run out of content
~It encourages social interaction within a guild as they level and grow their characters together, much more so than what is possible in a standard guild raid setting
~It gives the player an opportunity to play more than one class while continuing to improve the power of the character they are focusing on.
~It makes finding groups easier at all level ranges other than just having it easy to find groups at the high end.
Iksar said:oneADseven said:Understood. The system I proposed would not allow that to be possible. At best, you could have two classes available on the same character, but they could never both be max level, and you could never swap them outside of town. Once the progeny gets to max level, they are merged with the parent. The player would have to choose at that time if they want to stick with their original class, or potentially switch to the class of the progeny character. You bring up an interesting point about players being able to kill mobs with lockout timers multiple times, but that is an issue with alts, not progeny. Since the progeny/parent are essentially the same character, they would share lockouts. Progeny could be a great tool to alleviate both multiboxing and content monopolization.
Would that not the same thing as sacrificing a character if at the end of it you have to choose to get rid of an entire class/"character" in a merge?
"You bring up an interesting point about players being able to kill mobs with lockout timers multiple times, but that is an issue with alts, not progeny."
Yes and no. No in that if progeny has a player sacrifice their main for empowered new character then they aren't an alt and wouldn't be double dipping (since they'd have no other maxed character). Yes it's an alt issue if a player just has alts outside of progeny but that spills over into a progeny issue if players don't lose a main to have an empowered alt and progeny succeeeds in encouraging more players to have alts.
In many ways, yes, it could be considered a character sacrifice. The biggest difference, of course, is that you allow players the flexibility to continue playing on their main while they relevel the progeny. This system would still require a player sacrifice but rather than it being front-loaded (the terror!) the sacrifice is made when the characters are merged. More than anything, it's a sacrifice of time for a relatively small reward. Because of this, there is still plenty of value in rolling an alt if that's what someone wants to do. It's a complimentary feature to encourage rerolling, not a replacement.
philo said:So I think I am understanding the system as you are laying it out 187. It doesn't quite gives the same benefits that retiring your main character would give, but maybe it would be a good compromise?I want to go through the list of benefits that are gained from a "retire your character" type system and see how those benefits differ based on a "keep your main" system.- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populatedYes, provides this. To a lesser extent as people still focus on their max lvl character.- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate playersYes, provides this. To a lesser extent as people still focus on their max lvl character (similar to above)-It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)Sort of provides this. To a MUCH lesser extent. Still bottleneck issues. Still leak subscriptions as people still focus on their max lvl character.- It helps us with balanceYes, provides this.- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based gameYes, provides this. To a lesser extent as people focus on their max lvl character- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demandNo, does not really provide this. People will just craft/harvest on their higher lvl character more often than not.- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level rangesYes, provides this. To a lesser extent as people focus on their max lvl character.~It opens up contested raid mobs for players who might not normally get a shot at them because the min/max/hardcore players are leveling to earn progeny rewards.No, does not provide this. Any progeny leveling will only be done during down time after the max lvl character raids.~It frees up exp and item camps that would normally be monopolized by dispersing the playerbase throughout the levelsYes, provides this. To a lesser extent as people focus on their max lvl character.~It provides players long term incentives that keep them playing when they might otherwise run out of contentYes, provides this.~It encourages social interaction within a guild as they level and grow their characters together, much more so than what is possible in a standard guild raid settingNo, does not provide this. Guilds will not decide as a whole to focus on releveling together. It will only be done during down time. The strong sense of growing together is not applicable.~It gives the player an opportunity to play more than one class while continuing to improve the power of the character they are focusing on.Yes, provides this.~It makes finding groups easier at all level ranges other than just having it easy to find groups at the high end.Yes, provides this to a lesser extent. Groups are stilll more prevalent at the high end.So it hits most of the benefits 187. Like I mentioned it may be a good compromise. It is generally a worse system as far as "fixing" some of the in game issues that it is implemented to address, but if people like it better than maybe it is a better way to go? I could see it being a happy medium. (though sharing bank space and inventory space between 2 characters sounds like a nightmare hah).
The most important factor I want you to consider here is that every time you say "to a lesser extent because people still focus on their max level character" -- what you're saying is extremely subjective. That would be assuming that a lot of players would actually be willing to sacrifice their primary character in the first place, and I think it's been thoroughly demonstrated that most players want nothing to do with that. You can apply that same logic to any implementation that requires a character sacrifice. Yes, it could help achieve goal A, but to a lesser extent of what is possible depending on how many people participate. The idea I have is to make the system more accessible. If 50% of players are willing to participate part time with /toggle, that would satisfy the proposed goals more than 10% (this is a generous number) of players doing it full time via sacrifice. It's all relative to how many people follow through.
-It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
~It opens up contested raid mobs for players who might not normally get a shot at them because the min/max/hardcore players are leveling to earn progeny rewards.
~It encourages social interaction within a guild as they level and grow their characters together, much more so than what is possible in a standard guild raid setting
philo said:Feyshtey said:I guess I just don't understand what the point is.
Currently the plan seems to be that mentoring will be available to delevel in order to play with friends not at your level.
Also, currently the plan seems to be to retire a character in order to start an alt with some kind of a minor (?) incentive . (I oppose this plan, obviously, since I started the thread.)
I think Raidan is not suggesting that a Progeny character should be able to up-level to play his Progeny 10 character with his friends non-Progeny 25. I think he's asking about the logic behind a system that says "yes, you had a level 58 you could have de-leveled to play with your 25 friend. But our system recommends you start over and if you want to play with your level 25 friend they should mentor down to 10 to play with you (a more seasoned player.). "
People seem to be addressing the system like it will be the only way to create an alternative character. What you are saying is no different than if the more seasoned player created an alt and the friend deleveled to play with the more experienced player. What you are stating has nothing to do with progeny.
People don't have to participate in Progeny at all. That's been established. What has not been established is the level of incentive for participating in Progeny.
I've said it repeatedly, if it's a title, fine. I'm good with not participating. If it's a new wardrobe with no combat stats? Fine. If it's that my blacksmithing skill carries over and you don't have to level that up again? Fine. But if it's a 10% power increase over the course of the max Progeny iterations, if it's access to the best spells, if it's the only way to equip legendary weapons, then no. For most people that will ever see max level it's no longer an optional kinda nice system. It is a necessary avenue to fully develop a character.
While participating in Progeny under those latter circumstances, there's a host of issues.
@Feyshtey We have to have faith that the devs will balance the rewards appropriately. In reality, the player base doesn't determine whether the system is optional like you keep saying. If you want the benefits you participate, if not, you don't. There is nothing else to it as far as the rewards go.
...but that wasn't what was addressed in your above post /shrug
I have faith in the rewards being balanced in such a way that they are enough of an incentive to encourage participation, but not so powerful that players would require them to group or raid. The fact that these rewards are gated behind full releveling cycles should automatically tell you that most guilds would never require multiple progeny generations. Very few guilds would ever go so far as to make these bonuses a requirement, and for those that do, they probably aren't the kind of guild most players are looking for anyway. So what's the problem? Saying that a 10% power increase would make this system feel required would also be saying that raiding would be required. It's all about setting realistic goals for yourself. If you are adamant about attaining a fully developed character with additional prestige on top of that in a hardcore MMO, you should be prepared for an epic journey.
The most important factor I want you to consider here is that every time you say "to a lesser extent because people still focus on their max level character" -- what you're saying is extremely subjective. That would be assuming that a lot of players would actually be willing to sacrifice their primary character in the first place, and I think it's been thoroughly demonstrated that most players want nothing to do with that. You can apply that same logic to any implementation that requires a character sacrifice. Yes, it could help achieve goal A, but to a lesser extent of what is possible depending on how many people participate. The idea I have is to make the system more accessible. If 50% of players are willing to participate part time with /toggle, that would satisfy the proposed goals more than 10% (this is a generous number) of players doing it full time via sacrifice. It's all relative to how many people follow through.
We are making a general comparison between 2 systems so we have to make the assumption that all things are equal. To guess any other way is just a shot in the dark. We don't know the numbers.
While more people might play a progeny character if they don't have to retire their max lvl character, the amount of hours spent on those progeny characters will be much less than if the max lvl characters were retired.
To say one offers greater benefit than the other is not adding anything to the discussion. We really don't know. To have the discussion we have to assume all things are equal.
-It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)Sort of provides this. To a MUCH lesser extent. Still bottleneck issues. Still leak subscriptions as people still focus on their max lvl character.Actually, it delivers on this one a lot. The main point here is that rather than people only having botlenecked raiding/end game content to play through, they now have the entire world available to them again on their main. You don't simply run out of things to do and wait for an expansion. Releveling through progeny, especially multiple times over, would be a long-term goal and one that helps players appreciate the world in it's entirety rather than just what's at the end.
- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demandNo, does not really provide this. People will just craft/harvest on their higher lvl character more often than not.It would absolutely help with this. By taking a max level player out of end-game, you're putting them in the lower tiers again, even if it's temporary. If they are out adventuring through a level 20-30 zone, they cannot possibly harvest stuff from the higher tiers. They would be able to harvest stuff that is level appropriate to their progeny. Not only that, but they also create more demand for the materials in those lower brackets. When someone rerolls as progeny and switches their class, it's quite possible they will need to switch their gear or weapons. Outfitting your character with lower level gear helps stimulate the demand for those spheres.
~It opens up contested raid mobs for players who might not normally get a shot at them because the min/max/hardcore players are leveling to earn progeny rewards.No, does not provide this. Any progeny leveling will only be done during down time after the max lvl character raids.You're making a very authoritative statement here that cannot possibly be substantiated. You have no idea what kind of priority players will put on their progeny characters. It's entirely possible that a guild could focus on nothing but progeny for an entire week. If contested mobs have long respawn windows, do you think people will just avoid playing on their progeny while there is any chance of something spawning? Of course not. They will continue to play their progeny and when they hear of something spawning, they will then quickly rush to their house and /toggle back to their main before setting off to join their comrades. Either way, some people will be out in the world doing things rather than camping a spawn 24/7.
~It encourages social interaction within a guild as they level and grow their characters together, much more so than what is possible in a standard guild raid settingNo, does not provide this. Guilds will not decide as a whole to focus on releveling together. It will only be done during down time. The strong sense of growing together is not applicable.Are you assuming that every guild is a raiding guild? I thought raiding guilds were only like 5% of the population? (I always laugh at that one.) What do you classify as "down time?" The key here is player flexibility. If you allow flexibility, I am 100% confident that players will be in a better position for social interaction. It's way easier for a group of players to "relevel during their downtime" together than "simultaneously commit to sacrificing their main and starting over to relevel." The implications for improved socialization are absolutely staggering if you allow flexibility.
Once the progeny rewards are acquired, then the focus for that guild will switch back to raiding. You can't do both simultaneously as a guild...unless you are very casual/unfocused in the way you go about it."
That comment about social interaction and leveling together was directly related to guilds who choose to forego raiding and level together as a guild in order to earn progeny rewards. More casual guilds can let their members do both at once. It just isn't as efficient. So 100% of the people who are being referred to in that comment are in a raiding guild, yes. I thought you knew.
I understand what is being discussed here and stand my ground on everything I have said. I think the success of this feature is directly related to how many people participate. The focus behind my entire argument has been based around that very important consideration. I would like to see progeny be a feature that is broadly accepted by the player base. That will never happen if people have to delete their primary character in order to participate. If it isn't broadly accepted, all of the wonderful reasons behind having the system in the first place will suffer. I have direct experience playing a game that required people to relevel. It was a beautiful world where all of the benefits that have been associated with progeny were as evident as night and day.
I appreciate you digging deep into some of the finer details of this feature and sharing your experience with remort from other games Philo, I really do. But until you or someone else can convince me that players would be willing to sacrifice their character in order to participate, I rest my case. I'm not going to assume that all things are equal. It's quite clear that most people have said, quite vehemently, that they do not want to retire their primary character. Who can blame them? I don't know what the leveling curve was like in DDO but when it comes to Pantheon, I am expecting a pretty significant grind. Your average gamer isn't flushing 6+ months of progression down the toilet for anything, let alone a small boost in player power while they commit to that grind again.
You are giving to much weight to it being broadly accepted.
If 1000 people per server participate in the system and spend 1 hour per week on their progeny character because they have a max lvl character to focus on.
or
If 10 people per server participate in the system and spend 100 hours per week on their progeny character because their max lvl character was retired.
It works out the same.
It is optional. It doesn't need to be broadly accepted. Just well balanced.
(I know those are extreme examples...don't nit pick the numbers)
The difference is that 10 people participating does jack sheet for accomplishing the goals set out for progeny in the grand scheme of things. 100 players doing it for 10 hours a week is infinitely better than 10 players doing it for 100. This is where volume comes into play. The benefits to the server are severely diminished if only a few people do it, specifically the idea of getting veteran players to populate the lower level tiers. The more people who participate, the better. There is already a pretty massive barrier to entry when you consider the cost vs reward of releveling for a small bonus.
I think it's important to consider progeny won't exist in a void and a very large number of players (I'd bet more than half) are likely to create at least 1 alt regardless of progeny. This is what leads me to believe progeny is more about relieving congestion/contesting of max level content by appealing more to the power gamers than it is about trying to get your average joe to make an alt and level up again, as if they get the power gamers/hardcore/dedicated to level again it gives more room for the average joe to try their hand at otherwise locked down content.
oneADseven said:I have faith in the rewards being balanced in such a way that they are enough of an incentive to encourage participation, but not so powerful that players would require them to group or raid. The fact that these rewards are gated behind full releveling cycles should automatically tell you that most guilds would never require multiple progeny generations. Very few guilds would ever go so far as to make these bonuses a requirement, and for those that do, they probably aren't the kind of guild most players are looking for anyway. So what's the problem? Saying that a 10% power increase would make this system feel required would also be saying that raiding would be required. It's all about setting realistic goals for yourself. If you are adamant about attaining a fully developed character with additional prestige on top of that in a hardcore MMO, you should be prepared for an epic journey.
I should point out that there are many threads on this topic, my favorite point they make regarding your statement is that leveling up a progeny would not be an "epic journey" to the adamant meta gamer. It would consist of highly boring methods of power leveling to be as efficient and quick as possible.
The things players do to be efficient or powerful are not always good for them. A good game creator knows this and tries to remove the temptation all together.
Also, unless we instance our dungeons, the super guilds will be the ones who control all the gear the adamant meta gamer will need, thus requiring him to join those super guilds. Most people who finish the games they play will eventually, in search of more content, seek to make their character the best he/she can be, imo of course.
Iksar said:I think it's important to consider progeny won't exist in a void and a very large number of players (I'd bet more than half) are likely to create at least 1 alt regardless of progeny. This is what leads me to believe progeny is more about relieving congestion/contesting of max level content by appealing more to the power gamers than it is about trying to get your average joe to make an alt and level up again, as if they get the power gamers/hardcore/dedicated to level again it gives more room for the average joe to try their hand at otherwise locked down content.
Correct, one of the main reasons for including a Progeny system is to keep low-mid tier content and levels populated, relieving max level/end game.
My advice is to wait and see what we have in mind before suggestion alternatives or speculating over what will be best or what will break the game, we are aware of all the potential problems and what we want to achieve with this system for Pantheon, so I ask that you have a bit of faith in the Devs and wait to see what they do :)
philo said:Raidan said: where the progeny would be rerolling without the ability to "warp" levels
Both systems will be available at the same time. Why do you think a character that was created through the progeny system wouldn't be able to delevel to mentor someone?
I think it is a given that a player can't artificially increase their level to play with others who are higher? But they can still all play with each other...the higher lvl people are the ones who have to artificially delevel using the mentor system. People can always group with one another regardless of their levels.
I'm very curious as to why you think a character created through progeny wouldn't be able to mentor someone? I don't understand the disconnect.
I look at them as two separate systems.
Mentoring: De-leveling at max level to assist other players. Really not a fan as it typically is abused and groups/guilds/friends stay together and group together versus joining pick-up groups as you're never outside the leveling range. Example: A level 50 warrior de-leveling to 25 to group with his brother who is a 25 cleric.
Progeny: I look at is as an alt with bonuses (or negatives) in the system I proposed in my original post (not permanently retiring a character and offering non-gamebreaking benefits like keeping tradeskills/faction/player reputation - keeping the same name). A progeny would reroll versus de-level, so they would be back at level 1 and would need to progress through all the levels again. Say I progenied (that a word yet?) as a shaman and was only level 10. So, take the scenario above the progeny (shaman) would need to level back close to 25 to group with the 25 cleric. They wouldn't be able to de-level to the cleric as they had never achieved that level yet. The progeny system then would make it much more difficult for all guidies/group members/friends/family to be in the same level range at the same time so you'd be much more likely to group with strangers or in pick-up groups versus a mentoring system.
And, even if the "progeny" could mentor, they would only be able to mentor from whatever level range they currently were - if they were 10, then it would be 1-9, etc. But yes, nothing would say the person couldn't log back in/toggle whatever you would want to call it back to their main (warrior in this case) and mentor.
All that being said, the above would be perfect world scenarios based off not having major advantages to rerolling a progeny. I'm still highly skeptical of the system and if there are significant stat advantages, the system will be abused and guilds will /reroll progenies at different times, /power level them, get stat gains, rinse and repeat. Older zones may be more populated still, but not how the developers would like them to be. However, that's a discussion for another topic altogether.
Iksar said:I think it's important to consider progeny won't exist in a void and a very large number of players (I'd bet more than half) are likely to create at least 1 alt regardless of progeny. This is what leads me to believe progeny is more about relieving congestion/contesting of max level content by appealing more to the power gamers than it is about trying to get your average joe to make an alt and level up again, as if they get the power gamers/hardcore/dedicated to level again it gives more room for the average joe to try their hand at otherwise locked down content.
Agreed. That's the first bullet I put in the OP for the percieved goals of Progeny. And then proceeded to outline an alternate system that accomplishes much of the same without requiring people to start over. I'll grant that the proposed system is not as effective as Progeny would be, because it allows the higher character at end-game to persist and can be switched to at any time to participate in end-game content. However, I'd also argue that if end-game content is compelling enough that people are doing that, they will instead power thru progeny to max benefit before concentrating on end-game content anyway. So ultimately a high percentage of players that engage in it will do so only to fly thru 3 characters to reach one that will present the same issues, only after a greater period of time.
My biggest concern with the toggle / non-retirement methoodology described above is the treatment of inventory. If one can toggle back and forth, one can camp all of the gear required for their Progeny on their main and then just use it to equip the Progeny. Same could be said for raids. Raid with the warrior but bid on cleric gear because your Progeny is a cleric and you want it to be decked out, even though you haven't even created the Progeny yet.
Also, very few people would camp rare, class specific items or do lengthy quests if the focus were to remain on the main. I certainly wouldn't do my cleric epic if the progeny cleric were just going to be absorbed into my warrior at the end of the day. I fear the progeny needs to replace the main in order to get the most "replayability" out of progeny (and even that system could be abused).