Nephele said:I can get down with a lot of what you're saying Neph but it's already been said, specifically, that participating (or not) will not be a major consideration on raid eligibility. If you gate exclusive quests or encounters behind this feature then you're in direct conflict with the message that has been shared.
Just to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here:
We keep making the assumption that the same players who want to do progression raiding are going to be the players who would be interested in something like progeny. But is that really the case?
Nephele's crazy idea (please keep all extremities inside the thread until the post comes to a complete stop):
What if Pantheon offers a full suite of progression raid targets, at least in the style of Kunark/Velious-era EQ - specifically:
- Open world contested boss targets
- 2-3 raid "zones" with multiple boss encounters arranged in a progression (such that you have to progress through at least 3 tiers of challenge/gear/keying to get through all of them.
- Triggered "ultimate" raid encounters, the stuff that challenges guilds at the top of the progression.
My read is that this is the sort of thing progression raiders can really sink their teeth into (I was one, once, and that's the kind of thing I liked at least).
Still with me?
Now, what if Pantheon also offered the ability to sacrifice your main and reroll as their child. Doing so grants you the following:
- A minor stat/power boost to your new character
- Access to all of your old character's assets and holdings (their bank, player housing if it's in by then, NPC pets/hirelings, etc)
- A special flag on the perception system granting your new character the ability to access progeny-only quest lines.
- A special flag allowing your new character to *eventually* participate in a progeny-only triggered "ultimate +1" raid event (you can't get the key unless you can do the progeny quest line)
Assuming that there are enough players (both raiders and non-raiders) to support it:
1) Would this be enough incentive for non-raiders to utilize progeny, even if they never choose to raid?
2) Would this be enough incentive for raiders to eventually utilize progeny, in spite of the requirement to go back through all that progression again?
3) Would this cause players to believe that progeny was a requirement for raiding (because it's required for the "ultimate +1" raid?
What are your opinions?
Not sure that invalidates my questions though. This whole thread has been arguing about whether it's incented enough to succed in getting people to use it. Thus, I'm asking the question - how much would be enough? Even if that's more than we think the devs would do.
So, what's your opinion? Would it work? Would it not work?
Remember I'm playing a bit of DA here. I'm not in favor of introducing systems that further stratify or divide players beyond what we already do to ourselves in any level/gear-based game. BUT, if we're going to have it, we might as well talk about what it would take to make it appealing to us - then, if we all mostly agree on that, we can say "ok, is the cost in terms of gating/stratification worth the benefit?"
Make sense? :)
Fair enough. I can tell you for sure that if there are quests/encounters gated behind progeny (especially if we're talking +1, or prestige, hardmode, etc) then it would absolutely become a requirement (for any hardcore progression guild), and a very difficult one to manage logistically. It's hard to speak on how a non-raider might feel, but if I had to guess, they wouldn't be too thrilled about a major reward component being tied into a sphere of the game that they never plan on participating in.
If I play this game enough I will probably use the progeny system to axe my character and make a new one without issue. All good things must end n all that. I'm not positive but pretty sure VR is not going to give any sort of permanent, game changing benefit for it and I am ok with that.
Not trying to offend or anything but I dont agree with giving people benefits for making alts, besides the typical benefits like getting to play the game from a new perspective. It alienates new players much more than progeny would.
I also disagree with VR actually trying to persuade people to axe their characters for many reasons that have been given on threads on this topic.
Just put in progeny as something the very occasional person will use as a way to level a second character a little easier IN EXCHANGE for axxing the original character. Maybe give a useless cheevo, a small XP buff+a small amount of extra platinum (life insurance), or a free month of play. For and only for those of us who don't mind the axxing so much.
Just make alts as an alternative to progeny. If VR does what they promise and makes low levels as fun as high levels then that should be all the incentive you need for making alts, if you are interested in multiple characters.
Nephele said: ... Thus, I'm asking the question - how much would be enough? Even if that's more than we think the devs would do. ...
I can't imagine any reward that would be superior to simply levelling up an additional character, (bonus if it's on another account).
Especially if the new/next one provides an additional crafter, porter, rez'er, etc. I mean, that's why many people HAVE two accounts, these days, for reasons like this.
As has been alluded to, if it's a quest/key/gate thing, to access end-game content? Unpopular would be the mildest way of putting how that would be received.
So far, every indication is it would be very modest benefit, which can never match the time investment being sacrified. It just doesn't logically fit together, given the current public stated design goals for the mechanic.
oneADseven said:
If the goal is to create a sometimes feature that some people might want to participate in, you can create whatever barrier to entry you want. If you want it to be broadly accepted, and really hone in on all the positives it can provide, it should be more accessible.
I think you brought up an important point here 187. Who are these type of systems intended for?
One reason these systems are added is to extend content. Players who run out of content are a target demographic. It keeps them around and gives them a reason to play at a point when they might otherwise not log in, or cancel their subscription all together.
Others who like this system are people who enjoy the leveling process.
Min/maxers who want to add every bonus they can to their character, no matter the sacrifice, will want to participate in this system.
It definitely isn't for everyone...and if it was intended for everyone that would be counter productive. We still want some players left at max level. The system populates all level ranges within the game. There is nothing wrong with people who don't participate in the system. People who choose not to participate are a part of its design.
It definitely shouldn't be something that all players want to participate in...thus the large sacrifice required.
philo said:oneADseven said:
If the goal is to create a sometimes feature that some people might want to participate in, you can create whatever barrier to entry you want. If you want it to be broadly accepted, and really hone in on all the positives it can provide, it should be more accessible.
I think you brought up an important point here 187. Who are these type of systems intended for?
One reason these systems are added is to extend content. Players who run out of content are a target demographic. It keeps them around and gives them a reason to play at a point when they might otherwise not log in, or cancel their subscription all together.
Others who like this system are people who enjoy the leveling process.
Min/maxers who want to add every bonus they can to their character, no matter the sacrifice, will want to participate in this system.
It definitely isn't for everyone...and if it was intended for everyone that would be counter productive. We still want some players left at max level. The system populates all level ranges within the game. There is nothing wrong with people who don't participate in the system. People who choose not to participate are a part of its design.
It definitely shouldn't be something that all players want to participate in...thus the large sacrifice required.
Honestly I think it is intended for the non-raiders & non-"hardcore" groupers (grouping is supposed to be the focus and some of the hardest content). If only 15% of a server raids (and it will probably be less in the event of contested raids) then 85% of the population is more likely to consider progeny instead. I imagine the raiders/hard dungeon divers will at least be ever so slightly better off/stronger than a maxed out non-raiding 1st progeny character anyway.
I do hope there isn't necessarily content gated behing progeny, unless it is something that is spawned/opened by progeny that non-progeny can also take part in.
@Nephele Brad and the team understand what type of benefits should be derived from these kind of systems. Small, yet noticeable benefits. Nothing over powered. As mentioned above, you don't want it to be something that everyone wants to, or feels the need to, participate in.
Like anything it is a balancing act. Make the rewards to good and the high end content becomes a ghost town. Make them to weak and no one will want to participate...making an eventual bottleneck at the high end.
philo said:@Nephele Brad and the team understand what type of benefits should be derived from these kind of systems. Small, yet noticeable benefits. Nothing over powered. As mentioned above, you don't want it to be something that everyone wants to, or feels the need to, participate in.
Like anything it is a balancing act. Make the rewards to good and the high end content becomes a ghost town. Make them to weak and no one will want to participate...making an eventual bottleneck at the high end.
And this is where our history/experience differs. I have mentioned plenty of times how much of a fan I was of the sub-class system from FFXI. It accomplished ALL of the goals that have been listed for progeny, and it did it very, very well. I also mentioned how basically everybody used the system in FFXI, and multiple times over at that. Rather than there being a standard cap of 3 or 5 (or whatever the plan might be for progeny) players could continue releveling on a sub-class until every class in game was exhausted and we're talking mid double digits if my memory serves me correctly. (Very few ever took it that far.)
You mentioned how if the rewards are too good, the high end content becomes a ghost town. I can say with experience ... that simply isn't true. Rerolling on subclasses was basically a requirement in FFXI, and there was never a shortage of players at the highest level. There wasn't a shortage of players in any level tier ... that was the beautiful part about it. Players had flexibility and could rotate back and forth between their main/sub (parent/progeny) but again, there was a process involved. It was a toggle that only worked in town and you had to change out all of your gear, inventory space, consumables, quest items, etc.
You couldn't just freely switch back and forth, it required a bit of planning and commitment. In any event, I understand completely that progeny is not designed to be the sub-class system from FFXI. They are completely different. While I personally really enjoyed the sub-class system, I know Pantheon isn't being designed with that level of cross-class functionality in mind. That said, Pantheon IS being designed with progeny in mind, and the stated goals just happen to be natural by-products of how the sub-class system from FFXI worked. The system itself could be very similar, but the rewards much different.
My understanding is that rather than trying to force something like progeny onto players, progeny will instead be a feature designed to offer prestige to players who complete it. It's being designed to offer extra replay value ... to reward folks who achieve max level, with some extra perks that can be an incentive to have them experience the world again on an alt -- but in a new, fun and exciting way. I have never seen mention of progeny wanting to cater to any particular player type other than those seeking prestige or added replay value ... there are plenty of people out there who will fall into that category, if you let them.
BeaverBiscuit said:If I play this game enough I will probably use the progeny system to axe my character and make a new one without issue. All good things must end n all that. I'm not positive but pretty sure VR is not going to give any sort of permanent, game changing benefit for it and I am ok with that.
Not trying to offend or anything but I dont agree with giving people benefits for making alts, besides the typical benefits like getting to play the game from a new perspective. It alienates new players much more than progeny would.
I also disagree with VR actually trying to persuade people to axe their characters for many reasons that have been given on threads on this topic.
Just put in progeny as something the very occasional person will use as a way to level a second character a little easier IN EXCHANGE for axxing the original character. Maybe give a useless cheevo, a small XP buff+a small amount of extra platinum (life insurance), or a free month of play. For and only for those of us who don't mind the axxing so much.
Just make alts as an alternative to progeny. If VR does what they promise and makes low levels as fun as high levels then that should be all the incentive you need for making alts, if you are interested in multiple characters.
I got a good feeling it will be something small like a +2% to an important stat of that class, or maybe a +2% to a skill like 2HS or H2H, something small that all in all wouldn't make a huge difference, but yet a difference that might be noticeable, but at the same time even if you have that still means someone who didn't use progeny can still out dps/heal/tank you. if he plays better than you or rng was simply more on his side.
We're living and evolving race (we humans ofourse that is, lol) through our lives and years.
So/And if the world is immersive then it should not need to stay static.
Other MMO's have the option to create a character by new players with a high staring level closer to the current base, to have players play with friends faster. (In this latter case is of course the old world all but forgotten and ignored, EQ1).
Considering these, you could devise ways to slow down the pace if "leveling". For example no 5 levels every year, but 1 level every half year.
If you make this slow enough, then still the old world would become stale and ground into players; boring/dull/repetitive.
One could imagine a balance of these.
That would allow for slow progression of characters to give players the feeling they can use their old mains without retiring. But slow enough for the players to feel old for content done.
Developers would update content, but also at a certain pace.
Then at a certain point where there is (like EQ1 with lvl85's), a great event would take place as described in Lore. Content would not be updated but replaced. A character that started at launch would have risen from level 1 to 40 (for example) then 5 years hence, the character would be level 50. By a script, database numbers could be scaled down by 20%. Content not worth scaling down (too low for example) would be replaced by new. Older content could reappear as new lore or in new form and stats, because it used to belong to ancient ages (but the older player recalls for what it once was and meant; desires).
That would also make the game dynamic as a real world would.
I also think a bit of Pug in Feist's books.. Pug started as a kid in the books. The world evolves and he ages, hardly, but he can no longer hold on to the past. He still has a role to play, but more at a distance; for example the Tallon books (like an alt, Tallon also starts as a young one). Eventually Feist retired his character by having him reincarnate with similar abilities (a bit like the sugested progeny system). And Pug's son takes an interest in this new kid as the old Kulgan did in Pug's past.
Basically you do give the player a choice of killing the character; but only when the players feels it's time.
After all, the world has changed so much that starting a new character would not be much different than continuing the old.
Liav said:Yes, let's take a game based on progression and put a hard cap on that progression based on nothing other than the slow, relentless crawl of time that leads us all to our inevitable deaths.
Where did you come up with that "a game based on progression"? Have you heard Brad or one of the other developers call it that? I would like to see what they said so if you can direct me as well with a link or something I'd appreciate it.
I prefer to think of a MMORPG as being based on ROLE PLAYING GAME, and progression being a positive side effect of that (the GAME part)
You make it sound like it's a PROGRESSION GAME and Role Playing is an annoying side effect.
I appreciate the idea of realism and immersion and all that good stuff but at the end of the day I want to have fun playing a video game. It's on the designers of said video game to create a fun world that can pull a player in, and keep them engaged. Progression isn't necessarily the end all be all for every MMO player, but it's pretty damn important in regards to character development which is a style of RP that resonates with most people. Gating progression behind artificial time locks (or hardcaps) and calling it a form of RP would feel like pure frustration to me.
99% of game systems in MMOs as early as EQ are based around increasing numbers associated with your character. Leveling is probably the most fundamental of these systems that everything else is gated behind.
I didn't even think it was up for dispute that making progress is pretty much the driving force behind most video games in general, let alone MMOs.
I concur with the above assessment. One of the main reasons I prefer MMO's over all other game types is because of the amount of progression that can be achieved. (Others include teamwork, socialization, building a reputation, etc) My biggest hope for Pantheon is that there will be a very long progression curve, both vertically and horizontally. Running out of stuff to do, organically, sucks. Running out of stuff to do because of artificial mechanics sucks a thousand times over.
Liav said:Yes, let's take a game based on progression and put a hard cap on that progression based on nothing other than the slow, relentless crawl of time that leads us all to our inevitable deaths.
What are you arguing against? has VR said that progeny will be required for players?
I thought it would be optional, but have benefits to make you want to do it a little more. So that it doesnt alienate players like you who enjoy coming back to the same character.
I'm all for axxing MY character, but I'd be kinda pissed if it forced everyone else to do it.
Riahuf22 said:I got a good feeling it will be something small like a +2% to an important stat of that class, or maybe a +2% to a skill like 2HS or H2H, something small that all in all wouldn't make a huge difference, but yet a difference that might be noticeable, but at the same time even if you have that still means someone who didn't use progeny can still out dps/heal/tank you. if he plays better than you or rng was simply more on his side.
I hope not, i can totally see the hardcore guilds requiring the +2%. and then progenies getting power leveled up to highest level in completely unfun ways. All sorts of problems. Keep it optional for rpers and meta gamers alike please!
I've yet to see the devs state that the mechanic is going to exclude a given demographic of players. All of this is just speculation right now.
It is extremely easy to theorycrafy about a hundred different implementations of this mechanic, and why some of those implementations could be pretty terrible.
I've literally never seen "casual only" content in a video game.
Liav said:I've yet to see the devs state that the mechanic is going to exclude a given demographic of players.
Yes they have. It has been made very clear that the demographic who will be excluded are those who simply choose not to participate. It has always been about personal choice.
A lot more people will choose to participate in progeny if they don't have to permanently retire a character. Thankfully, this has already been acknowledged and other solutions are being considered. Whether or not anything ultimately ends up getting changed remains to be seen, but the fact that the collective voices have been heard and responded to is a good thing.
I really believe, after the discussion we had a page or two back in this thread 187, that if we don't end up retiring a player the system may as well not even be implemented. That goes against part of why these types of systems get instated in the first place. Without retiring a player the primary focus remains at the high end...and barely lessens the high end bottleneck. People will only play alts sparingly in their downtime if they still have access to their main character.
oneADseven said:A lot more people will choose to participate in progeny if they don't have to permanently retire a character. Thankfully, this has already been acknowledged and other solutions are being considered. Whether or not anything ultimately ends up getting changed remains to be seen, but the fact that the collective voices have been heard and responded to is a good thing.
Again, I don't see why we can't leave progeny, and then put all of these magical changes on MAKING ALTS (a system which has been in games since games had unique characters).
Let me say it again, though, buff people too much for making alts, with no drawbacks, and all of the nay-sayers on threads like this will have made prophecies.
I feel that there are many reasons to implement progeny, some being way more important than others. Alleviating the high-end bottleneck is definitely one of them, and the way I look at it, any incentive to play on an alt is better than none as it pertains to satisfying that goal. I don't see a real problem with allowing players to have their "primary focus at the high end" while working on something like progeny on the side. In fact, I think it sounds like a wonderful idea, and it's very similar to a system that I used in the past that I enjoyed very much. Personally, I have no intention of rolling an alt. That means you will most likely see me "releveling" ... never.
The biggest issue I have with "alts" in a super deep progressive game is that you can never give two characters the same love/attention that you can give to one. I actually enjoy the leveling process, and I want to revisit older parts of the world that I may have missed. But, I suffer from something that most players do ... I like to be as efficient as possible. If there is still work to be done on my main, it is extremely difficult to justify playing on an alt. Progeny 100% solves this issue for me. The reason I mention this specifically is because I am the kind of player that has a really strong demand for a system like progeny, and the system is designed in such a way that it has a really strong demand for a player like me. Additionally, the idea of added prestige and replay value on my main character would be invaluable.
I honestly don't care about having alts. I'll be playing with a bunch of friends, and playing a role that I know I will enjoy. I would rather relevel 5x on my warrior than deal with any other class, ever, if I had the choice. So again ... when it comes to a surefire way of taking a player like me out of the end game and bringing them back into the fold of early leveling tiers especially multiple times over ... the only way you are going to get it is with a system like progeny. I would rather grind multiple factions to max than level an alt. I would rather learn a new language than level an alt. I would rather take up crafting than level an alt. I would rather help my friends work on a quest than level an alt. The list can go on, forever. I place an extremely high value on my main character.
oneADseven said:
The biggest issue I have with "alts" in a super deep progressive game is that you can never give two characters the same love/attention that you can give to one. I actually enjoy the leveling process, and I want to revisit older parts of the world that I may have missed. But, I suffer from something that most players do ... I like to be as efficient as possible. If there is still work to be done on my main, it is extremely difficult to justify playing on an alt. Progeny 100% solves this issue for me. The reason I mention this specifically is because I am the kind of player that has a really strong demand for a system like progeny, and the system is designed in such a way that it has a really strong demand for a player like me. Additionally, the idea of added prestige and replay value on my main character would be invaluable.
I honestly don't care about having alts. I'll be playing with a bunch of friends, and playing a role that I know I will enjoy. I would rather relevel 5x on my warrior than deal with any other class, ever, if I had the choice. So again ... when it comes to a surefire way of taking a player like me out of the end game and bringing them back into the fold of early leveling tiers especially multiple times over ... the only way you are going to get it is with a system like progeny. I would rather grind multiple factions to max than level an alt. I would rather learn a new language than level an alt. I would rather take up crafting than level an alt. I would rather help my friends work on a quest than level an alt. The list can go on, forever. I place an extremely high value on my main character.
So you are in favor of permanently retiring a character now? Did you change your mind?
If you keep your main instead of retiring it, your progeny character becomes just an alt...which you said you aren't going to play. At that point you still have a primary character. You said you "don't care about having alts " and you " place an extremely high value on my main character.".
What you are actually saying above is (even though I don't think it was intended): if we aren't forced to retire our main character, you will choose not to participate in progeny...which is completely fine. I just think there is a misunderstanding about the system. You said "Progeny 100% solves this issue for me.", but actually, it only solves the issue if you are forced to retire your main.
That ^ is further evident by this comment: " I would rather relevel 5x on my warrior than deal with any other class, ever, if I had the choice."
Usually this type of systems offers different rewards depending on the path you choose to take. I don't want to make an assumption...but I highly doubt the choice of rewards for participating in progeny will be the same regardless of the class you choose. This encourages people to play a variety of classes if you want to be able to pick and choose rewards (this was mentioned earlier in this thread as one of the benefits of progeny). Sure you will have the option to choose to play a War 5 x's in a row...but you also said " I like to be as efficient as possible." I'm guessing you don't understand that you will be limiting your reward options by taking such a linear path? Maybe I'm incorrect on the way that will end up working, but I doubt it. It's likely that choosing War 5x's in a row will not be an efficient use of progeny rewards. Granted, that is purely speculation based on playing similar systems.
I see incentivizing players to try multiple classes as a positive.