187 said: When has that ever been listed as a major benefit or goal of the system?
It was right there in that post you quoted...but the thing is, and that was my point, if you understand the reasoning behind these systems then you know that is part of it. It doesn't have to be stated. It is a given...but it was stated anyway:
Kilsin said:-It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content
If players don't lose their max level character a bottleneck is created at max level and the focus remains on end game.
187 said: Anyway, you don't need a permanent loss to alleviate the bottleneck
I'll requote myself from a few posts up to address what might happen if you don't lose your max lvl character:
"Sure you might have a bit more incentive to level an alt if they get some kind of bonus...but I think most people will still play their main and just level their progeny character if there is down time. It lessens the effectiveness of the system and makes the high end content continue to be the focus."
Basically, yes you do need a loss of your max lvl character to alleviate the bottleneck. The more we talk it out, the more I realize that is an integral part of the system.
oneADseven said:Like I mentioned before, one of the major benefits of the system is that it stops players from being bunched up at max level and focusing primarily on high end content. Without the loss of a max level character you aren't addressing one of the main reasons why systems like these are instated in the first place.
There has to be a way for it to work out so that even hardcore raiders won't be upset they have to reroll. I think one of the main reasons for sacrificing a max level is precisely to keep raids/hardest dungeons from being overly contested and to slow down the inflation of economy a bit as people can't just pop on their maxed character to farm gold/plat etc.
Maybe you work it out with your guild and do progeny in shifts. One tank steps out and another fills in until he hits max on his progeny then the next tank steps out to do progeny and the first comes back in for raiding.
Maybe some raids can only be unlocked with progeny (something like half the raid or more are progeny as a trigger), instead of fighting the raid boss "Tormund the Earthshaker" you instead find yourself fighting "Torvox the Mountain - Son of Tormund" for a progeny vs progeny grudge match, complete with additional loot tables compared to Tormund.
I mean, I'm sure the sacrificing items thing could work somehow but it doesn't help fight maxed players farming mid level camps and/or farming currency nor solve raiding being overly congested/contested as people will log in the main for raids even if they spend all the rest of the time on their alt. In fact having to sacrifice items could possibly encourage that kind of thing.
If the parent is not to be retired (yet), what I like to know it then how it is initiated.. How does my character get a partner and if that has effect on the offspring.
Probably going to see at testing.
Then I want to see Aradune running around with 5 little brats, interupting his casts, hang on his pants like Atol's shackles, screaming when he invis, wiping there noses and sticky fingers on his loot and the wife yelling about his lacking cow milking craft.
Liav said:I don't see any implementation of this that isn't terrible if it requires the sacrifice of a max level character.
Yep, that's why the benefits would have to be absolutely staggering, because the sacrifice is staggering.
I mean, what value could you possibly convey or bestow that isn't OP if you're asking the person to give up potentially 300 hours of effort. That's USD$3150 at minimum wage in California. :)
Hence why it's so hard to balance mechanics like this. And god help you if you nerfed it AFTER the fact, post-launch. Talk about a world ending patch note..
Rydan said:If the parent is not to be retired (yet), what I like to know it then how it is initiated.. How does my character get a partner and if that has effect on the offspring.
Probably going to see at testing.
Then I want to see Aradune running around with 5 little brats, interupting his casts, hang on his pants like Atol's shackles, screaming when he invis, wiping there noses and sticky fingers on his loot and the wife yelling about his lacking cow milking craft.
Probably something like the aforementioned sacrifice of items. You go to whatever city the race you want as an option for your progeny (after acquiring a certain level of faction) and present/sacrifice x amount of items as a sort of dowry or bridewealth to some NPC to marry his/her son/daughter.
I apologize for necroing a progeny thread (again) but the topic has come up a few more times recently and there has always seemed to be a consensus where people believe that permanent retirement is set in stone. I thought the same thing for 8 months or whatever. Iksar just happened to share that post from Brad and it really changed my perspective on how the feature might work. Why didn't someone share that post with me like 75 progeny posts ago?!? Anyway, that was the goal here. Permanent retirement does not seem to be 100% set in stone and I wanted to get some feedback from people, specifically on how this might change their outlook in regards to this feature. It seems like any chance for creative air to exist around this topic gets suffocated when you bring up the toon poofing and I'd love to see a dialogue extended where that particular aspect of progeny is replaced with something less demoralizing.
oneADseven said:I apologize for necroing a progeny thread (again) but the topic has come up a few more times recently and there has always seemed to be a consensus where people believe that permanent retirement is set in stone. I thought the same thing for 8 months or whatever. Iksar just happened to share that post from Brad and it really changed my perspective on how the feature might work. Why didn't someone share that post with me like 75 progeny posts ago?!? Anyway, that was the goal here. Permanent retirement does not seem to be 100% set in stone and I wanted to get some feedback from people, specifically on how this might change their outlook in regards to this feature. It seems like any chance for creative air to exist around this topic gets suffocated when you bring up the toon poofing and I'd love to see a dialogue extended where that particular aspect of progeny is replaced with something less demoralizing.
Honestly to give any real feedback on this manner we will have to where form the devs on what they have brought of, becuase any idea is just fishing around and not knowing if what we say is or isnt what the dev have come up with. So for the thread to really come alive again we simply jsut need more information.
oneADseven said:It seems like any chance for creative air to exist around this topic gets suffocated when you bring up the toon poofing and I'd love to see a dialogue extended where that particular aspect of progeny is replaced with something less demoralizing.
Would the option to go one way or the other work here? Player A keeps their main and his progeny gets half the bonus that Player B who sacrifices their main obtains, but Player A's bonus becomes equal upon doing a second progeny?
Lets lay out some of the benefits.
Here are the ones that Kilsin listed but there are quite a few others as well:
Kils list:
- It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated- It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players-It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
- It helps us with balance- It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game- It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand- It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
The "benefits" are evident. The issue is incentivizing people to participate in the first place without feeling like ****.
It is very difficult to have a dialogue on this mechanic when we have zero clue what implementation any one given individual is speaking from. I can think of a dozen implementations of Progeny including but not limited to the involvement of VR goggles and anime body pillows.
Permanent retirement (loss of a max level character) to me just isn't an option, period. There are plenty of ways to make it work without that caveat, but right now we just don't know what the devs intend. I'm happy to talk about progeny all day, but any iteration involving permanent retirement is a dead end in my eyes.
@Liav How did you feel about my alternate proposal from a page or two back? I'll copy/paste it here for easy access:
Proposal:
"I wonder if people would feel better about it if their main character wasn't retired? It was just held in Limbo...until you max your next progeny character, and then you had the option to go back to your original character? At that point you could choose to restart another progeny character (in which case your max lvl characters would go into limbo), or you could continue playing either of the 2 characters you had previously maxed (but you could only choose one or the other at a time). Whatever you decide you couldn't access the other character until you max another progeny when you get the choice to choose again.
Did that make sense? It seems to solve the issues. Your past "maxed" characters aren not completely gone. You just don't have access to them unless you leveled another progeny character and chose to play the older character over the newer one.
That would keep the integrity of the system and allow players more options."
It's similar to the proposed system with the difference of your character isn't deleted. It is just temporarily inaccessible. The issue with most proposals is that they ruin why the system is instated in the first place.
It doesn't matter if they're completely gone or not, it is still completely unviable imo. How would anyone be able to raid with a guild while doing progeny? Unless we're imagining a scenario where people can get powerleveled to max in 2 days, I just don't see it being viable. That seems to be the opposite of what the VR team has as far as leveling expectations goes.
I'd rather see progeny as a toggle, if the system exists at all. Basically a lower level save state of your main, until it is maxed, that you can voluntarily toggle between to prevent your geared max level character from becoming unplayable or any duration of time.
Everyone isn't supposed to be stuck at max level raiding, that is one of the main concerns.
But the nice thing about the system is you don't have to participate...and it will open up a lot of raid mobs for you that might normally be permacamped.
I agree with philo on this one. The objective is to get you to stop playing your main and to restart at a lower level (without skipping the leveling step). Any solution where you can keep playing your main at will pretty much just makes your other character an Alt rather than a true Progeny. I am personally super excited for what I believe Progeny could be and hope character retirement makes it into the game. I feel Progeny is one of the true distinguishing replayability features that doesn't exist in other MMOs.
Also note that restarting at level one without your friends encourages you to meet other folks. If people always Progeny in groups of six, this doesn't entice you to adventure with newbies or meet new folks along your path up to max level. There is clearly no one best solution as we all have our preferred play styles, but I think it is fair to say there is merit to a variety of Progeny implementations.
What people are "supposed" to do and what people will do are entirely separate things. If raiding at max level continuously is required to stay on top of the progression game, then progeny just became irrelevant for a portion of the playerbase if it adheres to that type of mechanic.
Unless you're forced to progeny, nobody who cares about progression raiding will do it.
Liav said:[/ If raiding at max level continuously is required to stay on top of the progression game, then progeny just became irrelevant for a portion of the playerbase if it adheres to that type of mechanic.
Only short term. What if you have the option to raid currently to be, as you say, "on top of the progression game" now, or you participate in progeny now, to be "on top of the progression game" later?
One thing we do know is that there will be a limit to the number of benefits you can earn from progeny so players will max it out eventually.
Having experience with similar systems, from what I've seen the min/max/hardcore players are always going to max out benefits from these type of systems...and you can't do it at the same time that you are max lvl and raiding.
Taliche said:I agree with philo on this one. The objective is to get you to stop playing your main and to restart at a lower level (without skipping the leveling step). Any solution where you can keep playing your main at will pretty much just makes your other character an Alt rather than a true Progeny. I am personally super excited for what I believe Progeny could be and hope character retirement makes it into the game. I feel Progeny is one of the true distinguishing replayability features that doesn't exist in other MMOs.
Also note that restarting at level one without your friends encourages you to meet other folks. If people always Progeny in groups of six, this doesn't entice you to adventure with newbies or meet new folks along your path up to max level. There is clearly no one best solution as we all have our preferred play styles, but I think it is fair to say there is merit to a variety of Progeny implementations.
Gonna respond to some of your points Taliche.
"The objective is to get you to stop playing your main and to restart at a lower level (without skipping the leveling step)."
I have never seen "stop playing your main" listed as any sort of objective for Progeny. I view it as more of a means to an end on accomplishing some of the true objectives, and there are plenty of them.
"Also note that restarting at level one without your friends encourages you to meet other folks. If people always Progeny in groups of six, this doesn't entice you to adventure with newbies or meet new folks along your path up to max level."
If people have to permanently delete their character, they are far more likely to do it in packs so that they can continue playing together. Just like Philo mentioned, you generally "don't join a progeny guild if you don't plan on doing progeny." Players will already be naturally incentivized to reroll progeny as a group because of the power/efficiency potential ... permanent retirement will only exacerbate that mentality.
Any solution where you can keep playing your main at will pretty much just makes your other character an Alt rather than a true Progeny.
It depends on how it's implemented. In FFXI, for example, you were the same character. You toggled it, as Liav proposed, and the toggle only worked while in town. You couldn't just "keep playing your main at will" while also leveling your sub-class. You would literally be out in the middle of a level 15 zone, grouped with level 15's (ish) and wearing level 15 gear. You couldn't just magically turn into your 50 warrior on a whim. There was a process in switching and it required some commitment. You would literally need to remanage your bags, gear, consumables, etc.
Thanks for the thoughts 1AD7. I'll attempt to respond with my poorly fleshed out quoting skills.
"I have never seen "stop playing your main" listed as any sort of objective for Progeny. I view it as more of a means to an end on accomplishing some of the true objectives, and there are plenty of them."
At its core, I agree with you that to stop or reduce is not the direct objective of Progeny. The objectives of Progeny may be to populate lower level zones, enhance 'replayability', enable new players to make friends, etc. However, it seems to me that all of these objectives are obtained through the same behavioral pattern, namely reducing (or stopping) one from playing their main in exchange for playing a lower level character. So while the objective itself may not be to stop (perhaps i should have said reduce) time spent playing one's main, I do think that is precisely the desired behavioral pattern Progeny is intended to encourage.
"If people have to permanently delete their character, they are far more likely to do it in packs so that they can continue playing together. Just like Philo mentioned, you generally "don't join a progeny guild if you don't plan on doing progeny." Players will already be naturally incentivized to reroll progeny as a group because of the power/efficiency potential ... permanent retirement will only exacerbate that mentality."
I'm not 100% convinced this is true. While certainly a number of players will behave that way, it is really hard for us to predict how a diverse population of players, each with their own unique objectives for the game, will behave. I would argue that it is a mixed bag. Some groups of friends will elect to Progeny together, but what if there are only three of them? They will need to seek out three additional players to fill their group, regardless of whether those players are themselves Progeny characters. What about husband/wife teams that decide to Progeny together? What about the 'lone wolf' player with no guild affiliation? A lot of people could participate in a Progeny system that doesn't seek to maximize power/efficiency potential, which makes the character sacrifice version of Progeny acceptable. Admittedly, I'm a power gamer myself, but I recognize that I'll probably be in the minority in Pantheon.
Despite all of the above, I do suspect the devs will ultimately conclude that character retirement is too big a sacrifice to promote their desired usage of the system. I just hope the rewards aren't dumbed down too much as a result.
----
As an aside, if characters are allowed to persist after Progeny is created, I hope there is a future mechanic to pass along flags/gear/etc. acquired post-Progeny creation to the Progeny. If I'm creating a new, more inherently powerful character to ultimately replace my main, I suspect I would lack the motivation to continue to do raid flagging, acquire no-drop raid gear, and generally progress the parent character. I'm sure my guild also wouldn't want to fully gear up a brand new character and lose all of the raid gear won/bestowed on my former main. This creates a bit of a catch 22, which is that I'd like to pass all my raid gear to my Progeny, but not until the Progeny is able to take the Parent's spot on the raid roster. In fact, the more I think about / type this, the more I like my Progeny system I described on page 3 of this thread!
It just sounds like wanting to have ones cake and eat it too. The idea of having to deal with a trade-off of not immediately raiding to spend the time building a slightly stronger character is maddening even if it isn't necessary to participate in progeny at all, when all content/raids can be done without it anyway.
It doesn't sound much different than someone saying they don't want to have to sacrifice countless hours to raiding (or tradeskills or whatever else) but they want all the rewards of raiding. "I don't want to put the time into this thing, just give me the benefits in exchange for something inconsequential to me while I continue doing whatever it is that I want to do."
Trading in items for a buff is fine but for a permanent boost to a character it just isn't a real sacrifice at all. The items can all be replaced and you don't really lose much of anything. Make it an epic quest, hard to obtain items, or a massive load of items and you defeat the purpose of progeny by limiting the pool that have access to it greatly. Just give the bonus away to everyone that hits max level for their alts and it isn't really much of a system and definitely not something special to tell friends about, just a participation trophy.
Iksar said:It just sounds like wanting to have ones cake and eat it too. The idea of having to deal with a trade-off of not immediately raiding to spend the time building a slightly stronger character is maddening even if it isn't necessary to participate in progeny at all, when all content/raids can be done without it anyway.
It doesn't sound much different than someone saying they don't want to have to sacrifice countless hours to raiding (or tradeskills or whatever else) but they want all the rewards of raiding. "I don't want to put the time into this thing, just give me the benefits in exchange for something inconsequential to me while I continue doing whatever it is that I want to do."
Trading in items for a buff is fine but for a permanent boost to a character it just isn't a real sacrifice at all. The items can all be replaced and you don't really lose much of anything. Make it an epic quest, hard to obtain items, or a massive load of items and you defeat the purpose of progeny by limiting the pool that have access to it greatly. Just give the bonus away to everyone that hits max level for their alts and it isn't really much of a system and definitely not something special to tell friends about, just a participation trophy.
"Trading in items for a buff is fine but for a permanent boost to a character it just isn't a real sacrifice at all. The items can all be replaced and you don't really lose much of anything."
I can't overstate the importantance of the time requirement associated with releveling. The sacrifice is far bigger than just gear. You are spending a significant amount of time for a small power boost as opposed to rolling an alt that could grant a massive boost, especially if multi-boxing is a thing.
Well that's the idea, it's an opportunity cost for each person to consider if it's worth it to them or not. Giving up a whole character for a small permanent boost is a big decision to make especially when it isn't required at all to complete any content (unless they make progeny only content).
Though I suspect there is some middle ground in there where sacrificing items or doing some epic quest lets someone keep their first character and gives a bonus to their next character made, while sacrificing gives double the previous bonus and applies to all future characters made.
Or maybe if someone doesn't want to give up their character then let there be some other sacrifice to unlock the progeny bonus. Let them keep their main but have an AA sort of leveling process that takes the same amount of time it takes to go from 1 to 50; after it's full they can roll a progeny with the same reward of someone who maxed and sacrificed. If they want to keep their main and raid/do whatever they can and progeny will just be a long term passive goal that eventually they unlock.
My point is that it's still a pretty massive opportunity cost when someone has to weigh the benefits of leveling another fully unique character that can be used in conjunction with their main, or going through that same leveling process for what amounts to a small upgrade on just their original. That same time could have also been spent farming, crafting, raiding, exploring, whatever. Time is the most important resource of all if we're talking about a full relevel. The gear sacrifice is a drop in the bucket. I'll give you my gold too but I don't want to "sacrifice" a fully leveled character, ever. Levels are supposed to be more challenging ... more meaningful.
As far as any other alternative or spin you can think of, they all sound better than what feels like a worst case scenario. I personally prefer the idea of a long term passive goal over any system that poofs a toon. I'm willing to commit to a full leveling cycle for a small increase but if you're asking for my first born, in addition, that sounds crazy. I'm sure some people have the pain tolerance or patience or whatever other attribute/virtue you can think of in order to do just that, but I fear that most people would not, and that would really limit the potential for this feature taking off and providing all of the many benefits it's designed to offer in the first place.
If the goal is to create a sometimes feature that some people might want to participate in, you can create whatever barrier to entry you want. If you want it to be broadly accepted, and really hone in on all the positives it can provide, it should be more accessible. Time is a very important resource ... people will always measure the risk vs reward. Sacrificing a fully leveled character sounds like the biggest risk I can think of in an MMO ... how does that make sense if we're talking some sort of small reward? If we're talking a huge power spike then count me in.
Just to play a little bit of Devil's advocate here:
We keep making the assumption that the same players who want to do progression raiding are going to be the players who would be interested in something like progeny. But is that really the case?
Nephele's crazy idea (please keep all extremities inside the thread until the post comes to a complete stop):
What if Pantheon offers a full suite of progression raid targets, at least in the style of Kunark/Velious-era EQ - specifically:
- Open world contested boss targets
- 2-3 raid "zones" with multiple boss encounters arranged in a progression (such that you have to progress through at least 3 tiers of challenge/gear/keying to get through all of them.
- Triggered "ultimate" raid encounters, the stuff that challenges guilds at the top of the progression.
My read is that this is the sort of thing progression raiders can really sink their teeth into (I was one, once, and that's the kind of thing I liked at least).
Still with me?
Now, what if Pantheon also offered the ability to sacrifice your main and reroll as their child. Doing so grants you the following:
- A minor stat/power boost to your new character
- Access to all of your old character's assets and holdings (their bank, player housing if it's in by then, NPC pets/hirelings, etc)
- A special flag on the perception system granting your new character the ability to access progeny-only quest lines.
- A special flag allowing your new character to *eventually* participate in a progeny-only triggered "ultimate +1" raid event (you can't get the key unless you can do the progeny quest line)
Assuming that there are enough players (both raiders and non-raiders) to support it:
1) Would this be enough incentive for non-raiders to utilize progeny, even if they never choose to raid?
2) Would this be enough incentive for raiders to eventually utilize progeny, in spite of the requirement to go back through all that progression again?
3) Would this cause players to believe that progeny was a requirement for raiding (because it's required for the "ultimate +1" raid?
What are your opinions?