Knowing that I'm jumping in and adding to a necro'd thread aside...
While I appreciate the intent of such a system, I'm really, truly hoping to be able to find a class I like and never, ever log in and think to myself... "gee, there's nothing I feel like I want to do or nothing I could to to advance my avatar." And maybe that is or maybe that isn't the situation the system is meant to address, but for me personally, I hear about thoughts of such a system and I think to myself, do they think they won't provide me enough to do?
Back in EQ, I played my ranger for about 5.5 years. In that time, over time, I TRIED to pick up a different class that I thought looked cool, or fun, or whatever... but never ended up advancing them past noob status because, ultimately, I would spend my entire time on that alt thinking "Man... I'm not getting this done on my ranger" - OR - "Man... I'd really just rather play my ranger."
Playing with low level friends or low level guildies was never an issue, because you were always willing to sacrifice your own time or your own progress for others... so you would simply be in game with those low level people, but not in group with them. Maybe you pulled for them... maybe you buffed them... maybe you protected them while they did their thing. I know I did these things for friends, for guildies, and, on occassion, for perfect strangers I just happened to be running by.
My years since leaving EQ have been a constant and ongoing succession of starting a new MMO, playing a character and, at some point logging in feeling like there was nothing to do... at which point I'd start a new class and do it again, and then again, until I got tired of said MMO and moved on to another. Worse, I've gone back and forth, back and forth, and then back and forth again between a few MMOs, almost always scrapping old avatars and starting new ones when I did so JUST so that I felt I would have something to do for a while... and so I personally am tired of feeling like there is nothing new to do, or nothing I just plain old want to do on the FIRST class of my choice in an MMO.
And lets be clear, "nothing to do" in no way means "no way to advance my avatar" - Back in EQ, I didn't log in every night thinking about my avatar getting better (although that was a motivator) - I just thought about doing stuff. "Gee, so and so has been wanting to do X, maybe I'll see if they want to go do that tonight.", or "I never really played in that zone, maybe I'll go explore.", or a billion other things from night to night.
My ranger was always the class I WANTED to do those things on... and, at max level, was always good enough for me to do things regardless of the level of the other players I was doing it with, or the place I was doing those things in... because I had played enough, was geared enough, was keyed enough, and, ranger jokes aside, good enough to do anything I wanted to.
So, while I appreciate that such a system may be in the game, and while I hope such a system meets whatever the need for the system really is and works well for those who want to use it... I simply hope that I won't ever feel like I need to, or, in some ways worse, like I want to because I feel like there is nothing that makes me want to play my chosen main.
For me... I am hoping to fall in love with a class, and never, ever, ever want to - or feel like I need to - play another... and I plan on playing Pantheon for a very, very long time.
Thanks for reading.
With there being such a big emphasis on finding friends, and coming up with ideas on how to keep friends together, I would like to share some quick feedback on how progeny can tie into all of that. The biggest concern I have seen from players while discussing progeny is the idea of sacrificing their character. People are worried about the idea of getting to max level and then needing to sac their character in order to participate in progeny. In my opinion, a permanent character sacrifice would be extremely counter intuitive with the idea of "keeping friends together." Nobody should have to "ask permission" to participate in progeny but if you have a group or guild of players playing max level content together, if one person decides they want to enjoy this amazing feature, they are essentially creating a big void in any group or raid composition that is counting on them to be there. It's not just a personal sacrifice ... it would affect those you surround yourself with, the same players you have grown with during your journey.
Would someone have to give up their slot on a raid roster while they take time off to relevel for weeks or months? If so, wouldn't that mean they need to be replaced by someone else? I know in another post it was mentioned that instead of sacrificing a character, players could instead opt to sacrifice powerful gear. I think this is a much better idea because it would allow friends to continue experiencing max level content together and then playing on their progeny character during their free time. I really have a ton of hope when it comes to a system like this because I have seen first hand just how powerful it can be in regards to overall replay value and keeping lower level tiers of content fresh with players. The idea of cycling veteran players into the newbie zones is particularly appealing. Anyway, I understand that this feature is still a work in progress and it's been stressed time and time again that if the system doesen't work, it will be scrapped.
At the same time, though, it is listed as a feature on "The Pantheon Difference" page. People have been talking about it for a long time and they will continue talking about it. Rather than the consistent viewpoint boiling down to uneasiness (specifically the idea of players having to stop playing with their friends in order to participate) I think it would be a great idea to revisit this particular feature and refocus the conversation toward how it can be used to meet new friends, or allow folks to invite a friend/family member to the game and relevel with them on their slightly but noticeably more powerful progeny character. People should be excited about this feature! I can't tell you how much time I have spent trying to alleviate concerns about this feature and spin it into something that people should be pumped about, but before you can ever dig into the good stuff, the "sacrifice" seems to stick out like a sore thumb and really get in the way of things. Can we shift the mantra for this wonderful feature in such a way that people aren't worrying about being separated from their friends?
I really appreciate your positive outlook and rational response. That being said, looking at the imagined positive outcomes is no more or less productive than looking at the imagined negative pitfalls.
I cannot say that I loathe or love the notion of Progeny because we simply don't have any information on the topic we can use to form a judgement. But I don't think it's outside the reasonable norm to have concerns, and to voice those concerns. I think there's value in pointing at a path that has serious hazards and suggesting that we stear clear of that path.
@187 many guilds will end up deciding as a whole to relevel using progeny so you aren't losing a few random people for raid slots. I've found in other games that it actually strengthens the community and improves the social impact because you are going through the leveling process with all of your friends/guild mates from the beginning instead of just logging in to kill a raid mob. You are progressing and growing your characters together more than you would otherwise, instead of just acquiring gear or being in a standard exp group.
Feyshtey said:I really appreciate your positive outlook and rational response. That being said, looking at the imagined positive outcomes is no more or less productive than looking at the imagined negative pitfalls.
I cannot say that I loathe or love the notion of Progeny because we simply don't have any information on the topic we can use to form a judgement. But I don't think it's outside the reasonable norm to have concerns, and to voice those concerns. I think there's value in pointing at a path that has serious hazards and suggesting that we stear clear of that path.
I understand what you are saying Feysh. I probably didn't word my message the best way, but I guess where I'm getting at is this ... if the "sacrifice" were to be changed to gear instead of our characters (Aradune alluded to this being a possibility) would that be enough of a compromise to alleviate the concerns/pitfalls/hazards that have been discussed? For me, it would be. I am of the mindset that I would like to see any/all threads discussing this feature to have a more positive outlook, but am curious if this proposed change would be enough to help accomplish that? Also, on the other side of the equation, would such a change create new issues or concerns from people who felt that the character sacrifice was an integral component to this concept?
My concern is that by reducing the penalty for participating in the progeny system, VR will also reduce the reward. Neither has been determined yet at this point, but I am hopeful that the opportunity will exist to receive a meaningful reward for which I'll happily make a meaningful sacrifice.
philo said:@187 many guilds will end up deciding as a whole to relevel using progeny so you aren't losing a few random people for raid slots. I've found in other games that it actually strengthens the community and improves the social impact because you are going through the leveling process with all of your friends/guild mates from the beginning instead of just logging in to kill a raid mob. You are progressing and growing your characters together more than you would otherwise, instead of just acquiring gear or being in a standard exp group.
I understand the value in having everybody relevel, but I'll be the first to point out that not everybody will be so excited to jump on the opportunity. I just don't want to see friends segregated from each other based on their choice of participating in progeny. If it is to be truly considered an optional feature, players should be able to continue playing with each other regardless of whether they do or do not participate. If a player does choose to participate, they shouldn't have to give up a slot on a raid roster for an extended period of time (potentially permanent if that players has to be replaced) if the rest of their friends forego progeny and instead continue to focus on max level content. Again, with there being so much emphasis on keeping friends together, I would like to see progeny explained or implemented in such a way where that very important goal isn't compromised.
oneADseven said:philo said:@187 many guilds will end up deciding as a whole to relevel using progeny so you aren't losing a few random people for raid slots. I've found in other games that it actually strengthens the community and improves the social impact because you are going through the leveling process with all of your friends/guild mates from the beginning instead of just logging in to kill a raid mob. You are progressing and growing your characters together more than you would otherwise, instead of just acquiring gear or being in a standard exp group.
I understand the value in having everybody relevel, but I'll be the first to point out that not everybody will be so excited to jump on the opportunity. I just don't want to see friends segregated from each other based on their choice of participating in progeny. If it is to be truly considered an optional feature, players should be able to continue playing with each other regardless of whether they do or do not participate. If a player does choose to participate, they shouldn't have to give up a slot on a raid roster for an extended period of time (potentially permanent if that players has to be replaced) if the rest of their friends forego progeny and instead continue to focus on max level content. Again, with there being so much emphasis on keeping friends together, I would like to see progeny explained or implemented in such a way where that very important goal isn't compromised.
And yet again Kilsin has made it clear that we basically know absolutely nothing about it, but yet people are trying to fix it, honestly makes no sense to me, maybe we should actually write down our concerns on the topic once it actually becomes tested, and see what we like/dislike about it, instead of picking at straws and thinking what it might be and how we wouldn't like it that way.
So, there's been a LOT of discussion on progeny and different options for it, which is great. But that also makes it very hard for any of us to voice meaningful feedback on whether the system could/would be successful and desirable - because the definition of the system right now is just a little too loose.
What would help the discussion would be if Brad, or someone else, could come in and say "hey all, based on your feedback, here's our current thinking, we'd love for you to poke holes in this". I don't know if the team is ready for that yet, but I feel like that would be the best way to get high quality feedback from us as supporters. Otherwise we're just trying to convince each other of the same viewpoints we've had on the system for weeks/months.
That said, here's my summary of impressions on the proposed system based on the conversations in this thread and elsewhere. I'm not sure that my opinion is going to change until there's new information.
What is progeny? Progeny is a system that encourages players to "reroll" their main character and start over, by giving the new character a boost of some kind.
Why have progeny? Progeny introduces some replayability into the game, so that people aren't just getting to max level and staying there and leaving low level content unused. Progeny also helps promote community by giving players ongoing opportunities to meet new people and form friendships outside of their established circle. Finally, progeny helps keep the world feeling "alive" for new players by helping to prevent the population from pooling excessively in high level areas.
Will I have to sacrifice my main character to use progeny? This is not certain, but it has been implied as a possibility. In general, many players see the requirement to sacrifice their main character as being too much, so this aspect has been heavily discussed.
What kinds of benefits will the new progeny character get? This is unknown, but it has been implied that there may be some minor power boosts. Presumably, the character may also get access to assets and resources that the progenitor character had. This aspect has also been heavily discussed, as far as what might be appropriate vs. overpowering.
What is Nephele's opinion? (because of course everyone *cares* about that :P) Nephele likes the goal and intent of the progeny system but like many other players is concerned that potentially having to sacrifice a main character will lead to the system not being used. Nephele is also worried that if the benefits of progeny are too potent, it will create the perception among some players that having a progeny character is "required" to do top end content. Nephele would prefer (if possible) that the system be incentivized through additional content (for example, quests that only open up for progeny characters), rather than only power boosts - although minor power boosts are probably ok.
Riahuf22 said: ... maybe we should actually write down our concerns on the topic once it actually becomes tested, and see what we like/dislike about it, instead of picking at straws and thinking what it might be and how we wouldn't like it that way.
You can logically deconstruct many ideas like this. A simple approach is, is it worth my time? As in, my play time has value, so, will this mechanic (whatever it is) be worth my time. Does the reward justify the risk or sacrifice?
A very clear example is: Let's say it takes x hours to reach max level. And let's further say, the value derived in sacrificing your main via Progeny is y.
If y > x then we have a winner! Pretty straightforward. In english, that means if the common perception is you do derive more value from Progeny by sacrificing the time invested in your main, then Progeny has potential.
If the common perception is you don't, then it's likely a waste of time and likely very few, if any, will use it. :)
It's a common problem with binary one-way in-game decisions like this. If it's attractive enough, everyone will use it or do it. If it's not attractive enough, it's a waste of time developing because no-one will use it or do it. And if you adjust it in the future (to make it more attractive) then everyone hates you because they wasted all this time NOT using it. I don't envy Visionary Realms on this topic, and if it was me, I would steer clear of mechanics like this. The risk of failure is too high, imo.
oneADseven said:philo said:@187 many guilds will end up deciding as a whole to relevel using progeny so you aren't losing a few random people for raid slots. I've found in other games that it actually strengthens the community and improves the social impact because you are going through the leveling process with all of your friends/guild mates from the beginning instead of just logging in to kill a raid mob. You are progressing and growing your characters together more than you would otherwise, instead of just acquiring gear or being in a standard exp group.
I understand the value in having everybody relevel, but I'll be the first to point out that not everybody will be so excited to jump on the opportunity. I just don't want to see friends segregated from each other based on their choice of participating in progeny. If it is to be truly considered an optional feature, players should be able to continue playing with each other regardless of whether they do or do not participate. If a player does choose to participate, they shouldn't have to give up a slot on a raid roster for an extended period of time (potentially permanent if that players has to be replaced) if the rest of their friends forego progeny and instead continue to focus on max level content. Again, with there being so much emphasis on keeping friends together, I would like to see progeny explained or implemented in such a way where that very important goal isn't compromised.
That will be a standard for guilds in a game with a system like this. You don't join a guild that encourages progeny advancement if you don't want to participate in progeny. Same way that you don't join a raid guild if you don't want to participate in raids.
...Especially when there is also the mentor system, so if friends want to group with each other at lower levels, it will always be possible for the higher lvl person to delevel themselves.
Maybe it is my experience with other games that have a similar system, but your concern seems completely unwarrented
philo said:oneADseven said:philo said:@187 many guilds will end up deciding as a whole to relevel using progeny so you aren't losing a few random people for raid slots. I've found in other games that it actually strengthens the community and improves the social impact because you are going through the leveling process with all of your friends/guild mates from the beginning instead of just logging in to kill a raid mob. You are progressing and growing your characters together more than you would otherwise, instead of just acquiring gear or being in a standard exp group.
I understand the value in having everybody relevel, but I'll be the first to point out that not everybody will be so excited to jump on the opportunity. I just don't want to see friends segregated from each other based on their choice of participating in progeny. If it is to be truly considered an optional feature, players should be able to continue playing with each other regardless of whether they do or do not participate. If a player does choose to participate, they shouldn't have to give up a slot on a raid roster for an extended period of time (potentially permanent if that players has to be replaced) if the rest of their friends forego progeny and instead continue to focus on max level content. Again, with there being so much emphasis on keeping friends together, I would like to see progeny explained or implemented in such a way where that very important goal isn't compromised.
That will be a standard for guilds in a game with a system like this. You don't join a guild that encourages progeny advancement if you don't want to participate in progeny. Same way that you don't join a raid guild if you don't want to participate in raids.
...Especially when there is also the mentor system, so if friends want to group with each other at lower levels, it will always be possible for the higher lvl person to delevel themselves.
Maybe it is my experience with other games that have a similar system, but your concern seems completely unwarrented
What about joining a guild that wants to do both progeny and raids? Is it possible to do both at the same time, or do you need to choose between them? For the record it's not just my concern. I have had no less than 100 conversations come up regarding progeny and the consistent pain point has always been the idea of players having to choose between playing max level content or rerolling as progeny. Folks who are acclimated with this kind of system from other games appears to be an exception to the rule because it's always the same thing that comes up.
Only very casually. It is not possible to do both at the same time and be "hardcore" about it. Hardcore guilds must focus. We had a similar discussion on Fantheon. I brought up how it will change peoples focus.
Once the progeny rewards are acquired, then the focus for that guild will switch back to raiding. You can't do both simultaneously as a guild...unless you are very casual/unfocused in the way you go about it.
As someone who has experience with this kind of system, what are your thoughts on having the "player" sacrifice changed to a "gear" sacrifice? This was mentioned as a possible option and is something that sounds particularly appealing to me. I am definitely not a fan of the idea of labeling my guild as either a raiding guild or a progeny guild. I would be very disappointed if I had to choose one or the other for extended periods of time. Having to micro-manage an entire guild on when they could/should be focused on raiding as opposed to progeny, or vice versa, sounds like a logistical nightmare.
oneADseven said:As someone who has experience with this kind of system, what are your thoughts on having the "player" sacrifice changed to a "gear" sacrifice? This was mentioned as a possible option and is something that sounds particularly appealing to me. I am definitely not a fan of the idea of labeling my guild as either a raiding guild or a progeny guild. I would be very disappointed if I had to choose one or the other for extended periods of time. Having to micro-manage an entire guild on when they could/should be focused on raiding as opposed to progeny, or vice versa, sounds like a logistical nightmare.
I'm not sure sacrificing gear would work for a couple reasons:
Keeping your character at max level sort of negates some of the benefit that this type of system is supposed to be providing...
One of the benefits of progeny is that it keeps people from bunching up at max level and playing through that content much more heavily than lower level content. Sure you might have a bit more incentive to level an alt if they get some kind of bonus...but I think most people will still play their main and just level their progeny character if there is down time. It lessens the effectiveness of the system and makes the high end content continue to be the focus.
The benefit from sacrificing a piece of gear would have to be tiny considering how often players go through gear anyway. We know Brad has mentioned a system that allows you to sacrifice gear in exchange for buffs. The only difference would be the quality of gear I guess? I'm questioning if the reward would be substantial enough for people to be willing to relevel? I guess it would just be like any other alt only with a very tiny, possibly unnoticable, bonus.
I see. I'm going to quote a post by Brad because it really changed my perspective on how progeny might work. He specifically mentions that nothing official is being announced, but rather, he is speculating / theory crafting. The post is from August 2016. Here is a link: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
Aradune said:
I think the 'retirement' part is the hardest part of this system to wrap one’s head around and to accept. In fact, having to permanently retire a high level character in order to create alts with progeny bonuses may be asking too much. While we're not putting a lot of time into the progeny system right now (it's something that is planned several months down the road, after we actually have high level characters, have experienced high level combat, etc.), if there's anything that pokes a sizable hole in the system it's the retirement part, and what that truly means or might mean.We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun. It's about replayability. It's also about pride -- you could adventure with your augmented alts and people would recognize that you were someone who has already achieved great things in Pantheon. And I think these are great goals -- recognizing and rewarding long time players while also giving them reason to keep playing can't be a bad thing.
But then how does it actually work? Well first, we haven't said much, again because this system is not even close to being set in stone, and, as mentioned, one that doesn't have to be fully fleshed out in the near term. So I'm going to speculate and theory-craft a bit -- yes, that means I'm not announcing anything officially.
First, does such a system really require that the older character be permanently retired? I remember my earlier characters and how proud I was of them -- I didn't log them in very often because I was more interested in leveling up my newer characters -- but I did log them in occasionally to show them off and perhaps even participate in some adventure. If I couldn't do this because my character was inaccessible, how would that make me feel? Probably not so good.
But if the higher level player isn't retired, is it fair to allow that person to create alts with some added benefits? I honestly don’t see where it’s not – if you do, please speak up. So for the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to remove the retirement part and think about it for a while -- is there something I'm missing?
One of the other questions that comes up is will there be any restrictions as to who these augmented alts can be? If, for example, they are the offspring of a mighty human warrior and a beautiful ashen elf wizard, then it wouldn't make any sense if that alt could be any race or class, especially race. Does this restriction add to the system? Perhaps it does -- if you want all sorts of augmented alts that are a variety of races and classes, then perhaps you need to bring multiple characters up to this level necessary to use the Progeny system. Maybe that's good and encourages even more replayability.
And the last big question that keeps coming up is 'just what are these augmentations, these advantages?' And will they create an imbalance? Will these alts be crazy powerful and damage the balance and fun of the lower level game? Well, that's the easiest one to answer: no, of course we couldn't let that happen. I'm confident that whatever these advantages might be that they could be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with regular characters.Anyway, that's pretty much what I wanted to bring up in hopes that people keep talking about this proposed system and how it might work (or how it might not). The big question being, of course, is retirement really a necessary part of the system? It's certainly a big negative to many people and I have to ask, what is the positive? What does the system lose or what breaks or what doesn't make sense if the original character is still around and playable? Or, if a sacrifice must be made, perhaps it’s not about retiring a high level character but rather sacrificing powerful items in a ritual that results in their alts (offspring) having special advantages. This could be a great item sink, and while it would sting to lose some great items, you still get to play your old character if you want to.
It is interesting that this system is brought up as often as it is. I didn’t expect it to be. It’s an old MUD concept that I’ve wanted to bring to MMOs for some time as I’m always thinking about ways to encourage and reward long term play, about ways to keep people playing an MMO even years later. Really, that’s all the system is: a way to reward players who've put a lot of time into the game and who might want to experience the game again, as an alt, but would be even further incentivized to do so if that alt had some small but noticeable advantages. It's like a rite of passage and a recognition and a measure of respect shown to older players. Everything else is just detail, context, and flavor.
Thoughts?
I wish I had saw this post sooner, because I went on and on for months, stuck with the idea in my head that "permanent retirement" was a definite thing. There was plenty of debate on multiple threads about this and it wasn't until 8 months and 4 threads later that Iksar shined a light on this post from Brad last year. Like I said, it changed my perspective completely. I think the idea of permanent retirement has more or less been a stigma within the community and has prevented far too many "positive" conversations about progeny from blossoming that otherwise would have.
oneADseven said:As someone who has experience with this kind of system, what are your thoughts on having the "player" sacrifice changed to a "gear" sacrifice? This was mentioned as a possible option and is something that sounds particularly appealing to me. I am definitely not a fan of the idea of labeling my guild as either a raiding guild or a progeny guild. I would be very disappointed if I had to choose one or the other for extended periods of time. Having to micro-manage an entire guild on when they could/should be focused on raiding as opposed to progeny, or vice versa, sounds like a logistical nightmare.
There are vastly better systems that could be used to keep players playing at max level. If gear is a function of time played, and personal loot, then sacrificing anything/everything to gain "family favor" with the gods of terminus to provide bonuses at character creation is straightforward enough.
I mean, there's even the option of sacrificing XP (like essence emeralds in EQ1, but variable amounts of XP) but turning that sacrificed XP into distilled mana for the creation of customizing/adjustments/enhancements/upgrades for gear, environmental attunement, resists, skills, spells, etc. that would keep players playing ~forever. For extra fun, have generic and class-specific distilled mana. :)
But that's not what's going into Pantheon, and from what Kilsin has said, the time for all that type of design is long since over, and there was pretty much no customer input to such mechanics anyway. (or we would see vastly 'deeper' mechanics, I think)
I share your concerns about micro-managing, it would be problematic to put it mildly, given the information provided thus far.
Ya, I just read it again. It seems like Brad is walking on eggshells because he knows it is a touchy subject. I don't blame him. Some people seem very opposed to this system but I believe that stems from misunderstanding.
Many players seem to have trouble separating how the system might impact them personally as opposed to how it will impact the playerbase as a whole. There are so many positive effects that a system like this will add to the world. If you are only considering how it will impact you then you aren't "seeing the forest through the trees" so to speak. You aren't understanding the reasoning behind this type of system.
I certainly agree with the merits of the system Philo ... but where you have experience with remort in other games, I have experience with sub-classes from FFXI. It absolutely delivered on all of the positives that both Kilsin and Aradune mentioned as reasons to have a system like progeny. The biggest difference, of course, is that you didn't have to sacrifice a character. You could rotate between your max level character and your lower level sub-class while you were in a major city. In a nutshell, everybody participated. It was just a part of the game ... there was no such thing as a ghost town. If you were a brand new fresh player, the odds were actually in your favor that you might end up grouping with a veteran player who was messing around on their sub-class.
My belief is that the more people who use this system, the more positive impact it will have on the game. I absolutely understand the many reasons behind the system. I think they are so important, even, that it would be a damn shame if progeny wasn't implemented into the game. We need something like this in Pantheon and I really want to see the conversations around this topic switch from "Ehh, doesen't sound like something I would care for" into "Wow, sounds amazing, can't wait!" I personally do not see the need for some extreme "sacrifice" when it comes to rerolling as progeny. The sacrifice is your time (both on the progeny and off the parent) -- but with that said, I am perfectly okay with needing to sacrifice items. Sign me up for that version, please.
I think everyone needs to take a page from Aargon Rodgers hand book and R.E.L.A.X, reeeeeeeeeelaxxxxx, no point in judging something we know nothing about, even the post from Brad was from a year ago, so there could be everything different about it now, literally everything could of changed about it, and we don't know becuase it isnt a finished product, and saying youv'e seen system like this and everything when you don't know anything about it is in itself untrue, you might know something similair, but with the information they have given i could say me making an alt is similair to there defintion of progeny, which i sure is also untrue. so maybe instead of trying to find "alternatives" we need to see the full picure of what the progeny system, and see what it is.
Like I mentioned before, one of the major benefits of the system is that it stops players from being bunched up at max level and focusing primarily on high end content. Without the loss of a max level character you aren't addressing one of the main reasons why systems like these are instated in the first place.
Riahuf22 said:I think everyone needs to take a page from Aargon Rodgers hand book and R.E.L.A.X, reeeeeeeeeelaxxxxx, no point in judging something we know nothing about, even the post from Brad was from a year ago, so there could be everything different about it now, literally everything could of changed about it, and we don't know becuase it isnt a finished product, and saying youv'e seen system like this and everything when you don't know anything about it is in itself untrue, you might know something similair, but with the information they have given i could say me making an alt is similair to there defintion of progeny, which i sure is also untrue. so maybe instead of trying to find "alternatives" we need to see the full picure of what the progeny system, and see what it is.
Except the alternative was proposed by Brad and he specifically ended his post with "Thoughts?" That is basically asking for feedback. These are development forums that were actually designed for such feedback to flow back and forth.
philo said:Like I mentioned before, one of the major benefits of the system is that it stops players from being bunched up at max level and focusing primarily on high end content. Without the loss of a max level character you aren't addressing one of the main reasons why systems like these are instated in the first place.
When has that ever been listed as a major benefit or goal of the system? Anyway, you don't need a permanent loss to alleviate the bottleneck. ANY time spent on a progeny is time not spent on a toon being bunched up at max level. Here are the benefits that Kilsin posted on another thread:
New Idea Proposal:
I wonder if people would feel better about it if their main character wasn't retired? It was just held in Limbo...until you max your progeny character, and then you had the option to go back to your original character? At that point you could choose to restart another progeny character (in which case both of your max lvl characters would go into limbo), or you could continue playing either of the 2 characters you had previously maxed (but you could only choose one or the other). Whatever you decide you couldn't access the other character until you max another progeny when you get the choice to choose again.
Did that make sense? It seems to solve the issues. Your past "maxed" characters aren't completely gone. You just don't have access to them unless you leveled another progeny character and chose to play the older character over the newer one.
That would keep the integrity of the system and allow players more options.