Incentivizing players to play classes they don't want to play just so they can be rewarded sounds awful to me.
In a well designed game, exploring other classes is a reward of its own because it will be fun, but even then some people just don't agree with some archetypes. I wouldn't play a healer at endgame if paid.
philo said:oneADseven said:
The biggest issue I have with "alts" in a super deep progressive game is that you can never give two characters the same love/attention that you can give to one. I actually enjoy the leveling process, and I want to revisit older parts of the world that I may have missed. But, I suffer from something that most players do ... I like to be as efficient as possible. If there is still work to be done on my main, it is extremely difficult to justify playing on an alt. Progeny 100% solves this issue for me. The reason I mention this specifically is because I am the kind of player that has a really strong demand for a system like progeny, and the system is designed in such a way that it has a really strong demand for a player like me. Additionally, the idea of added prestige and replay value on my main character would be invaluable.
I honestly don't care about having alts. I'll be playing with a bunch of friends, and playing a role that I know I will enjoy. I would rather relevel 5x on my warrior than deal with any other class, ever, if I had the choice. So again ... when it comes to a surefire way of taking a player like me out of the end game and bringing them back into the fold of early leveling tiers especially multiple times over ... the only way you are going to get it is with a system like progeny. I would rather grind multiple factions to max than level an alt. I would rather learn a new language than level an alt. I would rather take up crafting than level an alt. I would rather help my friends work on a quest than level an alt. The list can go on, forever. I place an extremely high value on my main character.
So you are in favor of permanently retiring a character now? Did you change your mind?
If you keep your main instead of retiring it, your progeny character becomes just an alt...which you said you aren't going to play. At that point you still have a primary character. You said you "don't care about having alts " and you " place an extremely high value on my main character.".
What you are actually saying above is (even though I don't think it was intended): if we aren't forced to retire our main character, you will choose not to participate in progeny...which is completely fine. I just think there is a misunderstanding about the system. You said "Progeny 100% solves this issue for me.", but actually, it only solves the issue if you are forced to retire your main.
That ^ is further evident by this comment: " I would rather relevel 5x on my warrior than deal with any other class, ever, if I had the choice."
Usually this type of systems offers different rewards depending on the path you choose to take. I don't want to make an assumption...but I highly doubt the choice of rewards for participating in progeny will be the same regardless of the class you choose. This encourages people to play a variety of classes if you want to be able to pick and choose rewards (this was mentioned earlier in this thread as one of the benefits of progeny). Sure you will have the option to choose to play a War 5 x's in a row...but you also said " I like to be as efficient as possible." I'm guessing you don't understand that you will be limiting your reward options by taking such a linear path? Maybe I'm incorrect on the way that will end up working, but I doubt it. It's likely that choosing War 5x's in a row will not be an efficient use of progeny rewards. Granted, that is purely speculation based on playing similar systems.
I see incentivizing players to try multiple classes as a positive.
Again it all comes down to our perception on how the system can be implemented. If retirement isn't required, and we have the ability to /toggle the progeny/parent, all of my comments are validated. If the progress on the progeny ultimately gives progression for my main, I do not consider it an alt. I consider it another generation of the same character but with both of them still being connected (can never be boxed, which is a good thing right?). If leveling alternate classes as the progeny ends up being ideal, then I would definitely do that, but I never thought we would be able to get abilities from other classes. I read that we would be limited to specific races and if that's the case then obviously some of the races will be at a huge disadvantage. Ogres for example would only be able to progeny into warrior/direlord/shaman/druid which severely limits the potential of any sort of multi-classing. I highly doubt multi-classing will exist in any form as it relates to progeny unless multi-racing is also a thing.
I'm not understanding some of this post so I'll break it down a bit and hopefully you can answer some of my questions.
(after going through and asking questions, I might have figured some of it out...so read to the end :)
oneADseven said:
If retirement isn't required, and we have the ability to /toggle the progeny/parent, all of my comments are validated.
Clarify what you mean by toggle progeny/parent please? Is there a length of time required before you can toggle back to the other? How is that any different from having an alt? They are on the same account. You can only play one at a time anyway. Why are you saying toggle on/off?
If the progress on the progeny ultimately gives progression for my main, I do not consider it an alt.
Lets not get crazy. I don't think anyone thinks that playing an alt character should give direct benefits to a main character. That it bad design on a number of different levels. But maybe I am misunderstanding? You aren't saying that by leveling 1 character you should get the option to gain benefits directly on another...like small stat gains etc. Maybe you meant something else? I feel like I have to be missing something there? (backtracking...I might have figured out what you meant below, the above can be fine as long as there are limitations)
I consider it another generation of the same character but with both of them still being connected (can never be boxed, which is a good thing right?). If leveling alternate classes as the progeny ends up being ideal, then I would definitely do that, but I never thought we would be able to get abilities from other classes. I read that we would be limited to specific races and if that's the case then obviously some of the races will be at a huge disadvantage. Ogres for example would only be able to progeny into warrior/direlord/shaman/druid which severely limits the potential of any sort of multi-classing. I highly doubt multi-classing will exist in any form as it relates to progeny unless multi-racing is also a thing.
I don't think multiclassing will exist either. As I'm talking it through I might be understanding what you mean...So if the main did gain benefits from playing an alternate character, there would have to be a way to toggle between the alt and the main with some sort of lengthy requirement necessary before you could toggle back to the other character. I'm thinking you might have a similar idea to something I proposed...accept we defined it differently.
So my proposal was...what if you don't lose your main character when you start your progeny character?, it just goes into limbo where you don't have access to it for awhile while you play the progeny character instead
Is that what you meant by toggle parent/ progeny? So you start your new progeny character and the main character is toggled off...until you level up the progeny character. At that point you have the option to toggle the original character back on (which toggles the progeny character off).
^ That could work. As long as you don't have access to both of them whenever you want...then it's just like a normal alt. That is a good thought.
Though I think you feel like the benefits need to be given to the original character instead of the newer, progeny character. I see little difference there. It is sort of nit picking. Let me give an example:
I start an Ogre War. I play it to max level. I have the option to start another Ogre War with +100 hitpoints. So I do that. I think you want the original Ogre War to gain the 100 hitpoints instead of the second Ogre War? Either way you have an Ogre War with +100 hitpoints. Is that right? So you want all of the future progeny benefits to stack on the original character instead of stacking on the most recent character? I guess I'm fine with that. All it is saving you is one play through at the end to go back to the class/race you want to play. The important thing is that the player doesn't have access to the main and the progeny at the same time. How you want the benefits to apply only makes minor differences.
Unsure if I figured out what you meant or not. Clarify for me please 187.
Everything that you are saying is on point other than the requirement for some massive time sink in between utilizing the toggle. The fact that it's "like an alt" is sort of the point. The system encourages people who might not necessarily roll an alt to provide the same benefits to the server as someone who would. It allows a player who would otherwise focus exclusively on end-game for their main character to instead relevel, on another generation of what would eventually be the same character. The toggle should be something that you can do in town. The very important factor to consider here, that I know you are against, is allowing player flexibility.
If you have to put your main character in stasis for any extended period of time, it prevents players from focusing on their parent character. They should be able to continue raiding/grouping as they please while leveling their progeny during their spare time. Once the progeny character gets to max level, he is merged with the parent character and can begin the cycle anew until progeny capped. A system like this offers replay value, prestige potential, helps reduce the end-game bottleneck, promotes the idea of veteran players repopulating the lower zones, all while maintaining enough player flexibility to actually incentivize people to do it.
I hate to speculate on rewards too much only because that's where things can actually get tricky. If the rewards are too powerful, this entire conversation devolves into a debate on whether or not progeny ultimately ends up feeling "forced" rather than "optional." If they are too weak, why would people participate in the first place when they could otherwise just roll an alt? Now I am going to speculate a little bit here, purely for fun, on the kind of rewards that might make sense. We already know there will be a cap on how many times you can participate in progeny, but we have no idea what number that cap will be. Again, just theorycrafting here, let's assume 4. What I would recommend is 4 possible bonuses that a player can pick, in any order. As a rule of thumb, any bonus chosen will not apply to the parent character until after the progeny reaches max level and they become merged as one.
1) Crossbreeding -- Just having fun here, but let's assume that each race gets 2 racial bonuses. If someone opts for this progeny bonus, they can crossbreed their parent race with a new race for the progeny. They would be allowed to choose one of the two racial bonuses from the new race and apply it to the new progeny character. The progeny would maintain the look/race of the parent character but have "traits" of the new race in their DNA. This would also unlock additional class/race combos. If an elf mixes with a dwarf, for example, they could choose one of the two dwarf racial bonuses as well as play any of the classes available to dwarf.
2) Stat Bonus -- This one is super simple. It offers a permanent boost to stats. I think it would be a good idea if you could allow players to choose which stat they wanted to boost. This would be a permanent choice. Maybe the halfling warrior decides to go for some extra agility seeing as his base agility is already higher than any other race. (Speculating.) Maybe he decides to boost his stamina or constitution, instead. Whatever, it comes down to player choice.
3) Spell/Ability Upgrade -- This one would vary based on class. The dev team could pick 4 abilities that they are okay with being upgraded, and allow players to choose one. Maybe warriors can learn a slightly more effective taunt, enhance their offensive/defensive stance, or upgrade one of their buffs. (For this one, maybe make it so the progeny has to be the same class as the parent. It wouldn't make sense if someone releveled as a druid and then merged them with a warrior to unlock an improved warrior ability. It wouldn't really bother me personally but if someone wanted to nitpick then I'm fine with requiring a second playthrough on the same class in order to unlock this one.)
4) Resistance Buff -- This would allow a player to increase their base resistance to one specific resist by a small-moderate amount. Again, nothing crazy here, but it could be a nice option to help with character variance. Maybe some characters double dip here with crossbreeding ... let's assume one of the racial bonuses for dwarves, for example, is 5 extra cold resist.
I personally don't feel these rewards are all that powerful considering the amount of time it would take to relevel. The crossbreeding one sounds particularly desirable because it would add some fun/flair to the game. Elven paladins suddenly become a thing, but it has to be earned. The problem of "racial bonuses" not being fair to min/maxers becomes only "half a problem." The spell/ability upgrade might be pretty nice but I'm not sure if people would be willing to relevel for it. I know I would. The stat bonus and resistance buff don't seem all that powerful but they are an option on the table. These could probably be replaced with something more significant. I honestly have no clue how powerful these buffs are supposed to be ... the only description I have heard is "slightly yet noticeably more powerful."
There are tons of possibilities with how you could implement a system like this. I think crafting will be tied in somehow as well and maybe that could be added as a 5'th option or replace one of the above. It could be something like a new recipe that can be unlocked, or slightly raising one of the skill caps associated with the selected profession. If it's a recipe, I think it would be cool if we used the same logic as with the spell/ability upgrade. Each profession gets X amount of recipes to choose from, but you can only learn 1. This could allow crafters a nice niche market to work since these specific items would only be available to others who selected that same recipe.
The toggle allows you to switch between parent and progeny. You would essentially be the same character, but can only rotate between parent/progeny while in a town. The point of having the toggle and requiring you to be in town is to prevent people from playing on the parent character and then switching to the progeny while adventuring. This could lead to circumvention of content and have other potentially negative implications. In a nutshell, you would toggle your level. Upon switching, players may need to change their gear (especially if playing a different class), adjust their bags (make sure you have any relevant quest items, consumables), visit the bank, etc.
Consider if progeny worked like mentoring. You "turn off" your main, and your character essentially becomes another save state of the same character with its own level, gear, bank, coin, etc. That would be ideal to me.
You wrap up raiding for the night on your level 50, you decide to enable progeny, and your character turns into a level 17. This would allow you to simultaneously have your main and progeny. It would be like grinding AAs, except you'd be playing the same physical character. Once the progeny hits level 50, you gain whatever benefit progeny offers.
Edit: 187 beat me to it but I'll leave this here anyway.
Considering the progeny bonuses I listed, do you think it's a reasonable stance to call them OP? Even if someone earned all 5 ... how much more powerful would they really be? When you factor in the sheer amount of dedication that it would take to relevel 5X, it ends up being a major commitment. On top of that, let's also consider the idea of sacrificing gear. In order to reroll as a progeny, you have to earn X amount of favor with your deity for each new generation, and that favor can only be earned by sacrificing gear at an altar. When considering the benefits, you should be weighing them vs what could be achieved by instead just rolling an alt.
Having control of multiple characters could yield plenty of benefits, especially if someone is capable of multi-boxing. Would someone really rather have some extra stamina on their main than having another fully functional and potentially accessible character in the world? Even if they aren't multi-boxing, that second character could be used to offer extra class flexibility to their guild, or as a second (and hopefully complimentary) tradeskill profession to their main. If there is a really strong solo class, wouldn't a lot of people want to level that up for farming purposes, especially if their primary character has little to no solo viability? Dedicating yourself to a full relevel grind, but without being able to keep the character at the end is a major sacrifice.
I don't think it's overpowered. Power is relative, after all, and an implementation of progeny like that makes it much less exclusive than a permanent retirement implementation. The bonuses are also not strong enough that guilds would be inclined to require a certain progeny level, although they may encourage members to partake.
I think in addition to stat bonuses, I'd love to see some sort of cosmetic reward as well. What if we got optional suffix titles for each generation?
Liav the Sixth Born
Liav the Sixth
These could even be combined with other titles in the game and could make for a really cool nameplate.
Ninja Liav the Sixth Born of Wild's End
Damn I love cosmetic rewards.
@Liav & OneADSeven - I had disussed a similar idea with Amsai in the Champion thread awhile back - basically a modification of FFXI system. I would be much more accepting of that as well:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3542/my-idea-for-the-progeny-system-champion-edition
Here was my post from that thread:
I like your thought process OP - but I don't like the idea of having to retire a character.
If the progeny system has to exist, still pretty skeptical of it at this point, I'd like the progeny system best from an FFXI angle (pointing at you Amsai). I most definitely wouldn't want to retire my main character; however, if I could basically be a dual (tri/quad etc.) class, whether that be by psuedo camping, having to go to the guild trainer to swap, etc. to avoid abuse - I could handle that better than having to retire a character and never play it again. It would basically be another form of an alt at that point. And, since it's the same character, they would be sharing the same tradeskill gains, factions, so you could have the advantage of not having to obtain factions/tradeskills etc. if you chose the progeny route.
Also, I'd rule out stat bonuses and the like altogether so players wouldn't feel forced to have to use the system.
And, it wouldn't completely rule out the need for alts as if someone wanted to experience a completely different faction angle etc. - they would still need to reroll. You could also get creative if the system was more complex to have race/class based restrictions for progenies that made sense.
It would also serve to keep player/server reputation more in tact (can't hide behind an alt) if the name stayed the same between progenies.
When it comes to the rewards, I purposely shared ideas that I felt were on the weaker side of the equation. I don't think anybody is going to throw a tantrum if we're talking small upgrades such as a small boost to a single stat, resist, or ability upgrade. The tricky part, here, is getting the rewards to the point where people would be willing to commit to a full relevel in order to unlock them. The progeny system is designed to offer replay value and prestige to the player, but also have plenty of positive effects on their server as well. At the end of the day, I feel it's really important that players are properly incentivized to participate. The more people rerolling, the better. Better for the player, better for the community, better for the economy, etc.
In any event, I've spent quite a bit of time trying to get the progeny dialogue going again. My goal was to get more people talking about it, and to actually be excited about future participation. In prior attempts, the retirement aspect always ended up being a deal-breaker. If we could move past that particular hurdle, I think this feature has a much higher chance of being embraced by the community as a whole. That said, I would love to hear more feedback from other players. A /toggle seems to be a fair compromise, but let's also consider the additional requirement of sacrificing gear as that kind of cost has been specifically mentioned as a possibility. What would it take to get you to commit to a full relevel, knowing that when your progeny gets to max, it would be merged with the parent character? (Maybe give players the option to stick with their original class, or switch to the new one ... especially if crossbreeding were adopted.) What would it take to get you to relevel multiple times over?
Beefcake said:We keep discussing Progeny when we don't even know what is fully is yet. Let's see what the details are, then whine.
I don't need all of the details to discuss anything man. Please remember that these are development forums where these kind of discussions are encouraged. Please see: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak
Brad asked the community for feedback in August of 2016, specifically touching on the retirement aspect and possible alternatives. Maybe you don't care enough about this feature to indulge in such discussions, but I do. Maybe there is a mohawk thread out there that would be of more interest to you?
Liav said:Incentivizing players to play classes they don't want to play just so they can be rewarded sounds awful to me.
In a well designed game, exploring other classes is a reward of its own because it will be fun, but even then some people just don't agree with some archetypes. I wouldn't play a healer at endgame if paid.
Yeah, I agree.
For what it's worth though, I NEVER healed for a long time in MMO's. Like you, it was a "not in a million years" thing. Then I took it up (I don't even remember why), and was shocked at how rewarding it felt for me to play that role. Not saying it's for everyone to be sure. We all have things we like and don't like.
Wandidar said:Yeah, I agree.
For what it's worth though, I NEVER healed for a long time in MMO's. Like you, it was a "not in a million years" thing. Then I took it up (I don't even remember why), and was shocked at how rewarding it felt for me to play that role. Not saying it's for everyone to be sure. We all have things we like and don't like.
I loved playing a healer in PvP in EQ2, I just can't get behind PvE healing despite trying it. It's bizarre.
oneADseven said:The toggle allows you to switch between parent and progeny. You would essentially be the same character, but can only rotate between parent/progeny while in a town. The point of having the toggle and requiring you to be in town is to prevent people from playing on the parent character and then switching to the progeny while adventuring. This could lead to circumvention of content and have other potentially negative implications. In a nutshell, you would toggle your level. Upon switching, players may need to change their gear (especially if playing a different class), adjust their bags (make sure you have any relevant quest items, consumables), visit the bank, etc.
I really want to understand what you are saying 187. The toggle still sounds like any other character on the account.
Upon switching, players may need to change their gear (especially if playing a different class), adjust their bags (make sure you have any relevant quest items, consumables), visit the bank, etc.
Wait, you are saying they are the same character...in that they have the same inventory, share the same gear/bank etc.? Do they have the same base stats and name ? Unsure if that's what you meant...
I guess my main question is: If that is the case, what is the reasoning behind it? Why would you have it implemented that way instead of just having it be any other character on the account that gives benefits to another, specific, character?
Wouldn't having it be a separate character alleviate those issues about skipping content etc? Seems like clunky implementation but I'm probably missing something?
I really don't know if I got that right or not... I apologize for asking for so much clarification.
Wandidar said:Yeah, I agree.
For what it's worth though, I NEVER healed for a long time in MMO's. Like you, it was a "not in a million years" thing. Then I took it up (I don't even remember why), and was shocked at how rewarding it felt for me to play that role. Not saying it's for everyone to be sure. We all have things we like and don't like.
Yep, that is why incentivizing people to try new classes is a positive addition (it is still optional but...). Sometimes people don't think they will enjoy playing a certain role, but if they actually tried it they would be surprised how much they liked it. That little bit of incentive can make players try something they might not have normally. It can open up a whole new play style that a player would have never realized they liked so much if it wasn't for the incentive to try new things.
Liav said:You wrap up raiding for the night on your level 50, you decide to enable progeny, and your character turns into a level 17. This would allow you to simultaneously have your main and progeny. It would be like grinding AAs, except you'd be playing the same physical character. Once the progeny hits level 50, you gain whatever benefit progeny offers.
You are really close to describing the mentor system. You can delevel yourself to play with lower lvl players. You gain small bonuses from doing so.
philo said:oneADseven said:The toggle allows you to switch between parent and progeny. You would essentially be the same character, but can only rotate between parent/progeny while in a town. The point of having the toggle and requiring you to be in town is to prevent people from playing on the parent character and then switching to the progeny while adventuring. This could lead to circumvention of content and have other potentially negative implications. In a nutshell, you would toggle your level. Upon switching, players may need to change their gear (especially if playing a different class), adjust their bags (make sure you have any relevant quest items, consumables), visit the bank, etc.
I really want to understand what you are saying 187. The toggle still sounds like any other character on the account. What would be wrong with switching to the progeny character while adventuring as opposed to being in a town? Why would that matter?
Please explain how: " This could lead to circumvention of content and have other potentially negative implications."
Upon switching, players may need to change their gear (especially if playing a different class), adjust their bags (make sure you have any relevant quest items, consumables), visit the bank, etc.
Wait, you are saying they are the same character...in that they have the same inventory, share the same gear/bank etc.? Do they have the same base stats and name ? Unsure if that's what you meant...but, if so, what is the point of that? What are the benefits to the game (not player benefits like it doesn't take up a character slot).
If that is the case, what is the reasoning behind it? Why would you have it implemented that way instead of just having it be any other character on the account that gives benefits to another, specific, character?
I really don't know if I got any of that right or not...maybe break it down for me and answer my questions individually? I apologize for asking for so much clarification.
Please explain how: " This could lead to circumvention of content and have other potentially negative implications."
If a player could freely toggle between parent/progeny in the open world, they could clear trash in a lower level dungeon on the parent, and then swap to their progeny to kill a named. I'm not sure if we'll actually see a trivial loot code in Pantheon, but I imagine there will be measures in place to prevent high level characters from farming trivial content, at the expense of other level appropriate adventurers. Even if we remove TLC (Trivial Loot Code) from the equation, players shouldn't be able to navigate the world on a high level character and then switch to a lower level one, at will. Imagine working on a quest where you need to get from point A to point B, and that it's designed to be a dangerous trek for an appropriate level character. If you could just /toggle your max level, you could bypass all of the danger and get a free turn-in.
Wait, you are saying they are the same character...in that they have the same inventory, share the same gear/bank etc.? Do they have the same base stats and name ? Unsure if that's what you meant...but, if so, what is the point of that? What are the benefits to the game (not player benefits like it doesn't take up a character slot).
Same inventory, same bank, same name (except maybe a generational accentuate). I'm not sure if the base stats would have to be the same, but I don't think so. If someone wants to progeny into a different archetype it wouldn't make sense that they carry over the exact same stats. As far as the point of doing it ... look at the progeny character as a vessel. It's a means to an end. It's a fresh character that you can relevel, that upon getting to max, will be merged with the parent character. They would share the same faction, completed quests, etc.
As far as benefits to the game ... they are numerous. Basically any benefit that has ever been listed. You take a player who would otherwise be playing on a max level toon, and get them to relevel. It keeps the lower level zones populated. It gives players who would otherwise potentially burn out with the "limited end-game" an opportunity to continue progressing their character horizontally. It gives added replay value/prestige to your veteran players. It allows a player to dedicate themselves exclusively to one character, but still be able to contribute to the world in a way that is similar to those who roll alts.
You are correct that this would be similar to the mentoring system. The biggest difference is that there are long term progression benefits, and that it doesen't require you to actually mentor another player. If that player logs off, you don't need to find another person to mentor. You can continue playing your progeny character until you're satisfied. I hope we're closer to being on the same page now. At the end of the day, this is all just speculation. I appreciate you taking the time to try and understand the thought process behind how this particular angle could work. It's very similar to how sub-classing worked in FFXI, but the rewards are nowhere near as powerful.
philo said:Liav said:You wrap up raiding for the night on your level 50, you decide to enable progeny, and your character turns into a level 17. This would allow you to simultaneously have your main and progeny. It would be like grinding AAs, except you'd be playing the same physical character. Once the progeny hits level 50, you gain whatever benefit progeny offers.
You are really close to describing the mentor system. You can delevel yourself to play with lower lvl players. You gain small bonuses from doing so.
The Mentor system would allow you to drop to any specific level you wanted if Pantheon is similar to games I've seen it used in the past (Your friend is 25 so you /delevel to 25) where the progeny would be rerolling without the ability to "warp" levels (Your friend is 25, but your progeny is only 10 - you can't jump to level 25 forcing you to group theoretically with different players versus being able to level jump to wherever your friend is at). Both would accomplish similar goals though, which, basically any system that tries to get people to replay levels in some form or fashion will have overlap.
Raidan said: where the progeny would be rerolling without the ability to "warp" levels
Both systems will be available at the same time. Why do you think a character that was created through the progeny system wouldn't be able to delevel to mentor someone?
I think it is a given that a player can't artificially increase their level to play with others who are higher? But they can still all play with each other...the higher lvl people are the ones who have to artificially delevel using the mentor system. People can always group with one another regardless of their levels.
I'm very curious as to why you think a character created through progeny wouldn't be able to mentor someone? I don't understand the disconnect.
@187 Thanks for the clarification. You addressed everything except the thing I was really wondering about. The thing I stated was my main question:
"I guess my main question is: If that is the case, what is the reasoning behind it? Why would you have it implemented that way (as a toggle) instead of just having it be any other character on the account that gives benefits to another, specific, character?
Wouldn't having it be a separate character alleviate those issues about skipping content etc? Seems like clunky implementation but I'm probably missing something?"
I guess I just don't understand what the point is.
Currently the plan seems to be that mentoring will be available to delevel in order to play with friends not at your level.
Also, currently the plan seems to be to retire a character in order to start an alt with some kind of a minor (?) incentive . (I oppose this plan, obviously, since I started the thread.)
I think Raidan is not suggesting that a Progeny character should be able to up-level to play his Progeny 10 character with his friends non-Progeny 25. I think he's asking about the logic behind a system that says "yes, you had a level 58 you could have de-leveled to play with your 25 friend. But our system recommends you start over and if you want to play with your level 25 friend they should mentor down to 10 to play with you (a more seasoned player.). "