Maybe I'm not understanding?
Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards Neph?
It didn't seem like you answered the above question.
Nephele said: I don't, not necessarily.... I ask if there is a different way to incentivize progeny that could work.
Why do you feel the need for there to be a different way to incentivize progeny, but not a different way to incentivize other power increases in game like gear or leveling etc? Or do you? Maybe that is where I'm misunderstanding?
It is understood that some people will ostricize others for a variety of reasons. That is a whole other conversation. We don't need to get into all that.
The question was more in relation to progeny specific rewards vs any other rewards.
Is it the length of time it takes to play through progeny? Are you against leveling/grinding? Maybe other rewards require a shorter amount of time to attain so you are more in favor of them? Maybe you are a "main" character only person who doesn't want to restart?
It did kind of come off as :
I don't want to come across like I am just hating on the idea of progeny rewards.
...but I know you didn't mean it to. It just seemed like the question was avoided and I'm looking for some clarification.
If you have to retire a character to gain the small boost in power then I don't see it being something that becomes a requirement. It would take too much time. If it takes 6+ months for someone playing about 2-3 hours most nights to reach max level and another few months doing max level content/trying to get gear before doing progeny then the time investment would very likely be too much for the general populace. I'd imagine all the raids/dungeons would be tuned to non-progeny characters so that progeny is just a small bonus but the encounters are otherwise entirely doable without it.
The only people that tend to have strict requirements are the hardcore raiders but in a game like this they wouldn't be rushing into progeny, they would be working toward the gear grind to get all their members suited up so that they can push content and server firsts & in the event there is contested content they would be racing to control it.
Also: If alternate advancement skills/stats/traits/whatever are added to the game then say bye bye to progeny ever being a requirement.
philo said:
Maybe I'm not understanding?
Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards Neph?
It didn't seem like you answered the above question.
Nephele said: I don't, not necessarily.... I ask if there is a different way to incentivize progeny that could work.
Why do you feel the need for there to be a different way to incentivize progeny, but not a different way to incentivize other power increases in game like gear or leveling etc? Or do you? Maybe that is where I'm misunderstanding?
It is understood that some people will ostricize others for a variety of reasons. That is a whole other conversation. We don't need to get into all that.
The question was more in relation to progeny specific rewards vs any other rewards.
Is it the length of time it takes to play through progeny? Are you against leveling/grinding? Maybe other rewards require a shorter amount of time to attain so you are more in favor of them? Maybe you are a "main" character only person who doesn't want to restart?
It did kind of come off as :
I don't want to come across like I am just hating on the idea of progeny rewards.
...but I know you didn't mean it to. It just seemed like the question was avoided and I'm looking for some clarification.
Let me see if I can explain it better. If this doesn't really help, just say "Neph is overprotective of new players" and we can move on - because that's really what it sums up as :)
Like many of us, I have been playing these games for 20+ years now. And like many of us, I long for a return to the days when content was challenging, when groups and guilds mattered, and where the things you achieved felt special and meaningful.
But there's a dark side to that. One of the reasons that so many games have gone the "accessible" route is because of the way players behave when presented with challenges. They look for a way to minimize the risk. In most level-based games, the way to minimize the risk is by requiring more levels, better gear, more progression.
Early on in a game's lifetime, this is fine, and even a good thing. It helps players to figure out what will and won't work. But people are risk-averse by nature and so they will always set the bar for something higher than it actually needs to be. Worse, when the power curve in the game grows (maybe with an expansion or something), the bar for older content will typically continue to go up and up.
An example of that requirement creep: In Year 2 of EQ, no one batted an eye if I built a raid out of a few different guilds, using text chat, and said "hey let's go do Fear." By year 4 however, the general opinion of players was that raids wouldn't succeed unless everyone had level 55+ with 100 AAs and we were all logged into ventrilo or teamspeak. Another example that happens faster. Today, I play FFXIV. New "raid" (and I use the term loosely) content comes out and you see people recruiting for their statics and guilds with assinine statements like "Must know the fight!" or "Must have an ilevel 15 points above the minimum). Why? Because they're afraid to fail. They want to guarantee success.
Now for me, personally, I'll be in Pantheon at Day 1. So requirement creep doesn't really affect me so much. But I want Pantheon to be a game that lasts for 10 years and isn't on life support at the end (like so many older games are). To achieve that, the game needs a constant flow of new players joining after launch. In order to "stick" on a game, new players need a few things from other players - first, they need to feel like there's life in the lower level areas, which is something that progeny might help, and so I support it for that. Second, they need to feel like they have the ability to "catch up" and do the fun things at "endgame" - even if we don't like the term endgame, that's how other games have trained players to think.
It's that second part that I get antsy about. In too many games I've watched new players say things like "I'd have to play for years before I'd be caught up enough for anyone to take me on a raid with them". That's hyperbole, and it's usually not true, but it's based on what they hear from the guilds that are doing those raids. They feel like they'll never be able to catch up, and so in many cases they just stop playing.
Another example from last night in FFXIV, actually, though not with raiding. A new player asked in the mentor chat what they needed to do to get into crafting, because they wanted to make some of the neat high-end items. 3 or 4 people responded to them and said "You'll need a huge pile of money to buy the things to level up with." Because I can't keep my mouth shut, I broke in and said "no, you don't have to have a big pile of money, you just have to be patient and do some things the old-fashioned way... ie, hard work and challenge, instead of trying to minimize risk". Afterwards that player sent me a tell and said "hey thanks for explaining it, I was really upset when they said that I wouldn't be able to craft". That's a direct quote - not me paraphrasing. That newbie took those first responses as "you can't", not as "you'll have to work at it".
So - the reason that I'm worried about potentially turning progeny into a raiding requirement is that it creates these sorts of situations that can scare new players off. And, this is kind of my personal brand of crazy, but I am super protective of new players in any game I play. Maybe too much so? I won't blame you if you think that :)
Like I said, I totally understand where ya'll are coming from with the rewards, and the right answer is probably in the middle - have some rewards that slightly increase character power, but have other rewards besides that as well. I'd love to see quests that open up for you *because* you're a second- or third-generation character - a content reason to do it, rather than (or I suppose in addition to) stat boosts.
Hopefully that helps answer your question Philo. And it's ok if ya'll think I'm going a little overboard here :) I promise not be as idealistic about *everything* we discuss... mostly.
Iksar said:If you have to retire a character to gain the small boost in power then I don't see it being something that becomes a requirement. It would take too much time. If it takes 6+ months for someone playing about 2-3 hours most nights to reach max level and another few months doing max level content/trying to get gear before doing progeny then the time investment would very likely be too much for the general populace. I'd imagine all the raids/dungeons would be tuned to non-progeny characters so that progeny is just a small bonus but the encounters are otherwise entirely doable without it.
The only people that tend to have strict requirements are the hardcore raiders but in a game like this they wouldn't be rushing into progeny, they would be working toward the gear grind to get all their members suited up so that they can push content and server firsts & in the event there is contested content they would be racing to control it.
Also: If alternate advancement skills/stats/traits/whatever are added to the game then say bye bye to progeny ever being a requirement.
That's a really good point about the time investment Iksar. I guess it's something we won't know for sure until beta-ish, but I would be more ok with stat rewards for progeny if it really did take months of effort on the initial character to unlock it. I just know that in practice, most players tend to measure the 1-50 journey in days or weeks, which is why I get jittery about it.
Nephele said:philo said:
Maybe I'm not understanding?
Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards Neph?
It didn't seem like you answered the above question.
Nephele said: I don't, not necessarily.... I ask if there is a different way to incentivize progeny that could work.
Why do you feel the need for there to be a different way to incentivize progeny, but not a different way to incentivize other power increases in game like gear or leveling etc? Or do you? Maybe that is where I'm misunderstanding?
It is understood that some people will ostricize others for a variety of reasons. That is a whole other conversation. We don't need to get into all that.
The question was more in relation to progeny specific rewards vs any other rewards.
Is it the length of time it takes to play through progeny? Are you against leveling/grinding? Maybe other rewards require a shorter amount of time to attain so you are more in favor of them? Maybe you are a "main" character only person who doesn't want to restart?
It did kind of come off as :
I don't want to come across like I am just hating on the idea of progeny rewards.
...but I know you didn't mean it to. It just seemed like the question was avoided and I'm looking for some clarification.
Let me see if I can explain it better. If this doesn't really help, just say "Neph is overprotective of new players" and we can move on - because that's really what it sums up as :)
Like many of us, I have been playing these games for 20+ years now. And like many of us, I long for a return to the days when content was challenging, when groups and guilds mattered, and where the things you achieved felt special and meaningful.
But there's a dark side to that. One of the reasons that so many games have gone the "accessible" route is because of the way players behave when presented with challenges. They look for a way to minimize the risk. In most level-based games, the way to minimize the risk is by requiring more levels, better gear, more progression.
Early on in a game's lifetime, this is fine, and even a good thing. It helps players to figure out what will and won't work. But people are risk-averse by nature and so they will always set the bar for something higher than it actually needs to be. Worse, when the power curve in the game grows (maybe with an expansion or something), the bar for older content will typically continue to go up and up.
An example of that requirement creep: In Year 2 of EQ, no one batted an eye if I built a raid out of a few different guilds, using text chat, and said "hey let's go do Fear." By year 4 however, the general opinion of players was that raids wouldn't succeed unless everyone had level 55+ with 100 AAs and we were all logged into ventrilo or teamspeak. Another example that happens faster. Today, I play FFXIV. New "raid" (and I use the term loosely) content comes out and you see people recruiting for their statics and guilds with assinine statements like "Must know the fight!" or "Must have an ilevel 15 points above the minimum). Why? Because they're afraid to fail. They want to guarantee success.
Now for me, personally, I'll be in Pantheon at Day 1. So requirement creep doesn't really affect me so much. But I want Pantheon to be a game that lasts for 10 years and isn't on life support at the end (like so many older games are). To achieve that, the game needs a constant flow of new players joining after launch. In order to "stick" on a game, new players need a few things from other players - first, they need to feel like there's life in the lower level areas, which is something that progeny might help, and so I support it for that. Second, they need to feel like they have the ability to "catch up" and do the fun things at "endgame" - even if we don't like the term endgame, that's how other games have trained players to think.
It's that second part that I get antsy about. In too many games I've watched new players say things like "I'd have to play for years before I'd be caught up enough for anyone to take me on a raid with them". That's hyperbole, and it's usually not true, but it's based on what they hear from the guilds that are doing those raids. They feel like they'll never be able to catch up, and so in many cases they just stop playing.
Another example from last night in FFXIV, actually, though not with raiding. A new player asked in the mentor chat what they needed to do to get into crafting, because they wanted to make some of the neat high-end items. 3 or 4 people responded to them and said "You'll need a huge pile of money to buy the things to level up with." Because I can't keep my mouth shut, I broke in and said "no, you don't have to have a big pile of money, you just have to be patient and do some things the old-fashioned way... ie, hard work and challenge, instead of trying to minimize risk". Afterwards that player sent me a tell and said "hey thanks for explaining it, I was really upset when they said that I wouldn't be able to craft". That's a direct quote - not me paraphrasing. That newbie took those first responses as "you can't", not as "you'll have to work at it".
So - the reason that I'm worried about potentially turning progeny into a raiding requirement is that it creates these sorts of situations that can scare new players off. And, this is kind of my personal brand of crazy, but I am super protective of new players in any game I play. Maybe too much so? I won't blame you if you think that :)
Like I said, I totally understand where ya'll are coming from with the rewards, and the right answer is probably in the middle - have some rewards that slightly increase character power, but have other rewards besides that as well. I'd love to see quests that open up for you *because* you're a second- or third-generation character - a content reason to do it, rather than (or I suppose in addition to) stat boosts.
Hopefully that helps answer your question Philo. And it's ok if ya'll think I'm going a little overboard here :) I promise not be as idealistic about *everything* we discuss... mostly.
You make a lot of great points and I appeciate you sharing your perspective Neph. One point I'd like you to consider is that Pantheon isn't being advertised as a raiding game ... so even if hardcore raiding guilds (which are supposedly less than 1% of the population) enforce requirements such as progeny generation X, why would it even be a big deal? The reason small bonuses like racial passives in games like Warcraft seem so powerful is because it's one of the very few ways that you can differentiate yourself from other characters. Pantheon will have situational gear, unlockable abilities/spells, limited hotbars ... all kinds of stuff to "spread the progression gap" around. I don't see why having a worthwhile progeny bonus is any different than any other kind of bonus ... if anything, at least it helps keep the lower zones populated.
oneADseven said:You make a lot of great points and I appeciate you sharing your perspective Neph. One point I'd like you to consider is that Pantheon isn't being advertised as a raiding game ... so even if hardcore raiding guilds (which are supposedly less than 1% of the population) enforce requirements such as progeny generation X, why would it even be a big deal? The reason small bonuses like racial passives in games like Warcraft seem so powerful is because it's one of the very few ways that you can differentiate yourself from other characters. Pantheon will have situational gear, unlockable abilities/spells, limited hotbars ... all kinds of stuff to "spread the progression gap" around. I don't see why having a worthwhile progeny bonus is any different than any other kind of bonus ... if anything, at least it helps keep the lower zones populated.
Good points, and you might be right that progression will be broad enough that we won't have the same kinds of mid-life issues that other games have had. We'll have to see. I'm just hopeful that by us having this discussion, Brad and co. might be spurred to think about how the progression aspects they're considering might play out not just one year in, but 3 or 5 years in as the game and the playerbase ages. That way we get a game that's awesome at launch but that stays awesome 5-10 years after launch :)
And yeah, I do like progeny for keeping low level content viable/relevant. I hated in EQ2 how everyone pooled in the top 5 levels. It seriously killed immersion to see that.
philo said:Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards Neph?
For me its because none of the the other rewards require the sacrafice of a character that I've come to love. If I didn't love the character I wouldn't have advanced the character to "max". My major heartburn is that sacrafice.
When I play a character for months or years, I imagine a personality for them. In EQ I played my Paladin with a far different moral compass than I did my Necro. They had personality to me. It mattered, and it's what compelled me to play the game for 7 years. Its also why I havent played any other MMO for nearly the same length of time. Any reward that is an advanced with those characters is a move forward for that character. Progeny as we know (or imagine it) is the ultimate step backward to non-existence.
Sacrificing a character isn't 100% confirmed. There was a thread where Brad specifically touched on possibly removing the sacrifice part. I really hope they go down that road and allow players an option to reroll via progeny while also keeping their primary character. I have no doubt that many more players will use this feature if they don't have to "start over." Iksar shared a link of the thread on page 2 ... but here it is for those who haven't seen it: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949
I guess it really depends on how it ends up working out. If you DON'T sacrifice a character then I don't feel so great about power gains (related to combat) and could very well see a lot more clout to the possibility of it becoming a sort of requirement (for some) in due time. If you DO sacrifice a whole character then I think a small bonus is more than warranted and see far less potential of it ever being seen as a requirement, especially if AA gets added to the game.
I mean maybe they could have both options, non-sacrifice progeny: next of kin with non-combat bonuses/incentives. And then sacrificed character invoking more of the "something that originates or results from something else; outcome" definition, the new character the result of such a sacrifice in return for slightly increased power in and out of combat + whatever else.
Feyshtey said:philo said:Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards Neph?
For me its because none of the the other rewards require the sacrafice of a character that I've come to love. If I didn't love the character I wouldn't have advanced the character to "max". My major heartburn is that sacrafice.
When I play a character for months or years, I imagine a personality for them. In EQ I played my Paladin with a far different moral compass than I did my Necro. They had personality to me. It mattered, and it's what compelled me to play the game for 7 years. Its also why I havent played any other MMO for nearly the same length of time. Any reward that is an advanced with those characters is a move forward for that character. Progeny as we know (or imagine it) is the ultimate step backward to non-existence.
I understand not wanting to sacrifice a character.
Isn't that a reason why the rewards should be even greater? Because you are required to make such a sacrifice? The player should be awarded greater rewards if they make such a large sacrifice. Doesn't that seem logical?
Neph's thought was the rewards should be lesser...just vanity or faction type rewards for such a large sacrifice.
PLEASE Take personal opinion on whether you want to partake in the system or not out of the equation. The question was simply about comparing in game rewards and why someone would feel one way about certain rewards, but feel differently about others.
Generally, in all aspects of a game, rewards should be balanced with how difficult they are to attain ( you dont get max lvl raid loot from a lvl 1 rat). Sacrificing your main character (or not depending on the system) and spending hundreds of hours to re-level seems like a commitment of Epic Quest type proportion.
I'm guessing the reward will not be equivalent to the sacrifice involved. We should be arguing that the rewards need to be substantial for such a sacrifice, not the other way around.
Agreed, and considering the benefits of cycling players into lower tiers over and over, it should be incentivized even more. It's not just a matter of considering the benefit of the player participating in progeny, but the overall effect on the server when a bunch of players do it over a long period of time. I am fine with sacrificing a character if the reward is substantial. If it's barely noticeable I can think of a million other things I would rather do with my time to progress my character.
philo said:I understand not wanting to sacrifice a character.
Isn't that a reason why the rewards should be even greater? Because you are required to make such a sacrifice? The player should be awarded greater rewards if they make such a large sacrifice. Doesn't that seem logical?
Neph's thought was the rewards should be lesser...just vanity or faction type rewards for such a large sacrifice.
PLEASE Take personal opinion on whether you want to partake in the system or not out of the equation. The question was simply about comparing in game rewards and why someone would feel one way about certain rewards, but feel differently about others.
Generally, in all aspects of a game, rewards should be balanced with how difficult they are to attain ( you dont get max lvl raid loot from a lvl 1 rat). Sacrificing your main character (or not depending on the system) and spending hundreds of hours to re-level seems like a commitment of Epic Quest type proportion.
I'm guessing the reward will not be equivalent to the sacrifice involved. We should be arguing that the rewards need to be substantial for such a sacrifice, not the other way around.
Ok, no personal opinion :
That's kind of the point people are trying to make.
In order to incentivize deleting a character, the reward has to be important enough. If it's important enough to actually make people want to delete a character, then it's no longer a reward. It's approaching or arrived at being a necessary pathway to power sufficient for end-game inclusion and achievement. It has game balance implications. It has grouping/raiding/community exclusion implications. It has treadmill implications (replaying things you don't necessarily want to replay just to get the reward).
Back to personal opinion :
If the reward is having a 5 room house for your goodies rather than a 3 room house, fine. If the reward is getting to have a surname rather than just being "Feyshtey", fine. If the reward is getting to have all my former character's belongings, any one non-combat skill and a special hat with a big feather in it, fine. I would happily play without those things and retain my first iteration of a particular character.
If the reward is a 10% bonus to the max of my skills at cap level, if the reward is that Progeny is a pre-req to obtaining and equipping legendary items, or if the reward is access to the tier3 version of spells, then one of few things is going to happen :
1) Some (many?) People will power throw-away characters thru to whatever the minimum requirements are to reach the max Progeny benefits to finally make the character they actually intend to retain, or
2) People (many?) will have to accept that if they refuse to delete a character they like they will forever be at a disadvantage and more than likely be excluded from participation with the "elite" who have all the possible benefits of Progeny
If I make a paladin I want to make that character the best paladin I can make that character be. I don't want to make three paladins, play three paladins to max, and then and only then be the best paladin I can be.
If I make a paladin, get as far as I can without deleting, and then make a necro, I want to have a strong paladin and a strong necro in my toolbox. Not instead just the necro I kept by getting rid of the paladin. And I sure as hell dont want to have to play 6 characters to max to keep 2.
People like to dabble. If I realize that the bard I really didn't think I'd enjoy is really compelling, I want to keep playing that bard. I don't want to say to myself, "Hmmm, this is fun and all, but eventually I'm just going to have to delete this guy. Do I really want to start all over with another bard? I hear that the easiest class to max is the Warrior. I'll just run a couple of those to max so I can make the bard I actually want to play long-term."
I fully support the notion of replayability. I like the idea of lineages. That is why I started this thread ; to come at the issue from the opposite side of the equation. Instead of forcing a player to relinquish a character they enjoy in order to promote replaying things that the player has already experienced, instead incentivize them to keep that character they love, make that character their ultimate focus, and give them avenues to improve that character by playing alts. Ultimately all the same benefits for the main can be achieved, all the same goals preventing stagnation, boredom, etc, can be reached, but no one has to give up on a character.
Oh, and no one has even responded to repeated questions about how this scales out of the lifetime of the game? If the benefits of Progeny are maxed out at, say three heirs. Ok, in the game's initial release there will be many who max out their main in the initial release of the game.
Now fast forward a decade, and there have been say 6 expansion to be conservative. Is the max benefit still achieved at 3 heirs? Or does it get bumped by even just 1 every couple of expansions?
Either the system has no meaning after the initial release of the game for a great many and services the goals of the system in no way for the rest of the game's lifetime, or players starting years after release don't have a 3 character hike to max potential power in front of them, rather they have X characters hike. Maybe it's 4 or 5 or 8 characters they have to go thru. Not to mention every person that got their "keeper" main at release now having to start over again at expansion #3, and again at expac #6, etc. etc. etc.
Take all the questions I have above, and compound them for every bump.
Edit: do me a favor fey and read til the end...I know its long. Its more agreeable at the end :).
Feyshtey said:
one of few things is going to happen :
1) Some (many?) People will power throw-away characters thru to whatever the minimum requirements are to reach the max Progeny benefits to finally make the character they actually intend to retain,
Correct, that is how the system extends content. Think about it like they are all the same character, it just takes 3x's longer to max it out and lets you replay through all levels of content instead of being stuck at max level and only having that same max level content to rerun over and over. It does more than extent end game content like AAs, it extends ALL of the content from every level. It is a better system than AAs in that manner.
The point of progeny is what this kind of system brings to the game. It populates all levels of the world. It extends the life of content so that a small dev team such as VR can create content at a rate that keeps up with the players. Without this type of content extension there is no way for the devs to keep pace with the players.
or
2) People (many?) will have to accept that if they refuse to delete a character they like they will forever be at a disadvantage and more than likely be excluded from participation with the "elite" who have all the possible benefits of Progeny
Just like if people choose not to raid everyday for the best loot or camp super rare items etc. This is a fluff argument based on your own bias of not wanting to participate in this system. That is the same question from earlier that was never really answered. "Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards." You are ok with people gaining an advantage over others by acquiring loot rewards or rewards from leveling up or raiding. This is a much greater sacrifice...for, likely, lesser rewards. But some reason you have an issue with rewards from this but not that? Simply because you don't want to participate in this. That's invalid.
If I make a paladin I want to make that character the best paladin I can make that character be. I don't want to make three paladins, play three paladins to max, and then and only then be the best paladin I can be.
You have made it very clear you don't want to participate in the system. You aren't required to. You don't get to be the best you possibly can by not participating. That is like saying, I want to be the best possible Paladin, but I refuse to level up. Or I refuse to raid. Or I don't have the time to play. That's not how games work.
If I make a paladin, get as far as I can without deleting, and then make a necro, I want to have a strong paladin and a strong necro in my toolbox. Not instead just the necro I kept by getting rid of the paladin. And I sure as hell dont want to have to play 6 characters to max to keep 2.
Like I stated above, you have to realize that is all one character. Your character grows and advances and gains abilities along the way. Whatever classes reincarnation you are in currently is your focus at the time. From your statement a couple quotes up...you aren't actually deleting the character. I feel like that is where there is some misunderstanding. I know it seems like it the way VR has tried to give the narrative about progeny being offspring, but thats not how these type of systems actually pan out. I'll explain more at the bottom of the post.
People like to dabble. If I realize that the bard I really didn't think I'd enjoy is really compelling, I want to keep playing that bard. I don't want to say to myself, "Hmmm, this is fun and all, but eventually I'm just going to have to delete this guy. Do I really want to start all over with another bard? I hear that the easiest class to max is the Warrior. I'll just run a couple of those to max so I can make the bard I actually want to play long-term."
I don't think it's going to be "this class is easiest to level". I think you will have to choose your path from one class to the next in order to acquire all the abilities you desire. Unlikely that they will all be available from every class.
I fully support the notion of replayability.
Not really. You only seem to support replayability if it doesn't require you to sacrifice another character.
I like the idea of lineages. That is why I started this thread ; to come at the issue from the opposite side of the equation. Instead of forcing a player to relinquish a character they enjoy in order to promote replaying things that the player has already experienced, instead incentivize them to keep that character they love, make that character their ultimate focus, and give them avenues to improve that character by playing alts. Ultimately all the same benefits for the main can be achieved, all the same goals preventing stagnation, boredom, etc, can be reached, but no one has to give up on a character.
Hear me out here because I know at this point we have disagreed a lot: We had a similar conversation a year ago...or whenever it was. I assume you still haven't played any games with this type of system?
I have played 2 games with this type of system and our disconnect is that you still don't think of the repeat play throughs as your main character. It is still your main character, just at a lower level...with added bonus abilities that you earned. It is a way to connect with your character even more than is possible in a standard system. I think if you gave it it's due dilligence someone like you who really connects with their characters will get a lot of enjoyment from this type of system.
incentivize them to keep that character they love, make that character their ultimate focus, and give them avenues to improve that character by playing alts.
This ^ is not the same at all! Most people don't want to be forced to play an alt to gain benefits on their main when they could just be playing their main. I believe this will drive a lot more people away than how the system is currently being suggested. Progeny is always improving your main character. What you suggest is making it more optimal to play an alt INSTEAD of your main. That is a bad idea.
I know it is hard to wrap your head around if you don't have any experience with this type of system. But I think you might actually like progeny if you give it a chance.
philo said:Correct, that is how the system extends content. Think about it like they are all the same character, it just takes 3x's longer to max it out and lets you replay through all levels of content instead of being stuck at max level and only having that same max level content to rerun over and over. It does more than extent end game content like AAs, it extends ALL of the content from every level. It is a better system than AAs in that manner.
So does alts that enhance your main, without requiring you to remove a character from your toolbox and allowing you more characters in your stable to play based on mood/need/level of groupmates/etc.
philo said:The point of progeny is what this kind of system brings to the game. It populates all levels of the world. It extends the life of content so that a small dev team such as VR can create content at a rate that keeps up with the players. Without this type of content extension there is no way for the devs to keep pace with the players.
So does alts that enhance your main, without requiring you to remove a character from your toolbox and allowing you more characters in your stable to play based on mood/need/level of groupmates/etc.
philo said:Just like if people choose not to raid everyday for the best loot or camp super rare items etc. This is a fluff argument based on your own bias of not wanting to participate in this system. That is the same question from earlier that was never really answered. "Why do you feel differently about progeny rewards compared to other in game rewards." You are ok with people gaining an advantage over others by acquiring loot rewards or rewards from leveling up or raiding. This is a much greater sacrifice...for, likely, lesser rewards. But some reason you have an issue with rewards from this but not that? Simply because you don't want to participate in this. That's invalid.
It's not invalid. It's a matter of perspective. Making players camp for the best gear that equips them to raid is a far different thing than telling players that they have to play characters to max they know full well they will delete so that the are able to raid.
philo said:You have made it very clear you don't want to participate in the system. You aren't required to. You don't get to be the best you possibly can by not participating. That is like saying, I want to be the best possible Paladin, but I refuse to level up. Or I refuse to raid. Or I don't have the time to play. That's not how games work. If we are being honest there will only be one, or a couple arguably, best Paladins in the entire game...and chances are it won't be either of us...whether we participate in the progeny system or not. Thats not really the point.
I agree. And by your argument it would be perfectly acceptable to say that you must play in 8 hour contiguous sessions every day for 60 days in order to max your patience skill, which increases all combat skill caps by 20% permenantly, as long as you mail in your poopsock to unlock it. Sure, it's the system and you can choose to participate or not, and if you don't participate you dont get the bonus. But it wouldn't detract from the fact that it's a bull**** unfun system. I don't want to partiicpate in the system we're guessing at because I'm not willing to put in 3x the time. I don't want to participate in the system because I don't see anything fun about sacraficing a character that was hopefully enjoyable to explore, or alternatively re-experience the same character's progression 3 times. Sure, the scenery might change, but the progression would be the same. Unfun. Make the system fun, I'm there. Make it a bull**** grind to mask a lack of an alternative, I'm not.
philo said:Like I stated above, you have to realize that is all one character. Your character grows and advances and gains abilities along the way. Whatever classes reincarnation you are in currently is your focus at the time. From your statement a couple quotes up...you aren't actually deleting the character. I feel like that is where there is some misunderstanding. I know it seems like it the way VR has tried to give the narrative about progeny being offspring, but thats not how these type of systems actually pan out. I'll explain more at the bottom of the post.
If it's all the same character, then doesn't just increasing the xp required by 3x accomplish exactly the same ends? Again I suggest that deliberately getting someone to play the same character 3 times as opposed to getting them to trudge thru 3x the xp to reach max once is just a mask to attempt to hide that you're trying to eat up as much of their time as possible.
philo said:
I don't think it's going to be "this class is easiest to level". I think you will have to choose your path from one class to the next in order to acquire all the abilities you desire. Unlikely that they will all be available from every class.
Ok, fine. How does that change the basic premise of what I was suggesting ; requiring players to fully level classes that dont interest them to get the skills in the class they wish to end with?
philo said:Not really. You only seem to support replayability if it doesn't require you to sacrifice another character.
Well, yes. That was the whole point and why I started this thread. I do support replayability. That's why often have a few alts. But I always have 1 or 2 that I concentrate on and try to keep maxed out just short of raiding.
philo said:Hear me out here because I know at this point we have disagreed a lot: We had a similar conversation a year ago...or whenever it was. I assume you still haven't played any games with this type of system?
I have played 2 games with this type of system and our disconnect is that you still don't think of the repeat play throughs as your main character. It is still your main character, just at a lower level...with added bonus abilities that you earned. It is a way to connect with your character even more than is possible in a standard system. I think if you gave it it's due dilligence someone like you who really connects with their characters will get a lot of enjoyment from this type of system.
incentivize them to keep that character they love, make that character their ultimate focus, and give them avenues to improve that character by playing alts.
This ^ is not the same at all! Most people don't want to be forced to play an alt to gain benefits on their main when they could just be playing their main. I believe this will drive a lot more people away than how the system is currently being suggested. Progeny is always improving your main character. What you suggest is making it more optimal to play an alt INSTEAD of your main. That is a bad idea.
I know it is hard to wrap your head around if you don't have any experience with this type of system. But I think you might actually like progeny if you give it a chance.
What you're arguing is sort of ironic, really. You argue that someone is playing and advancing their main, and that's all well and good. What you're not addressing is that someone focusing on their main is going to what, tell their guild "I'm sorry but I'm starting progeny on my main so I won't be available to group/raid with you on upper content for the next 3-6 months, and I hope you'll keep my spot open.".
This is yet another reason that I see this system dividing communities more than bringing them together.
So does alts that enhance your main, without requiring you to remove a character from your toolbox and allowing you more characters in your stable to play based on mood/need/level of groupmates/etc.
You didn't read through all the way before replying. I addressed this near the bottom of the post you quoted. No, it doesn't. (I'll only copy and paste this once)
It's a matter of perspective. Making players camp for the best gear that equips them to raid is a far different thing than telling players that they have to play characters to max they know full well they will delete so that the are able to raid.
It's the same in that it is a sacrifice that players are required to make to earn rewards. I think you know what is being discussed. Talking around it isn't furthering the conversation.
I agree. And by your argument it would be perfectly acceptable to say that you must play in 8 hour contiguous sessions every day for 60 days in order to max your patience skill, which increases all combat skill caps by 20% permenantly, as long as you mail in your poopsock to unlock it. Sure, it's the system and you can choose to participate or not, and if you don't participate you dont get the bonus. But it wouldn't detract from the fact that it's a bull**** unfun system. I don't want to partiicpate in the system we're guessing at because I'm not willing to put in 3x the time. I don't want to participate in the system because I don't see anything fun about sacraficing a character that was hopefully enjoyable to explore, or alternatively re-experience the same character's progression 3 times. Sure, the scenery might change, but the progression would be the same. Unfun. Make the system fun, I'm there. Make it a bull**** grind to mask a lack of an alternative, I'm not.
Man I really feel like you must not be reading what I post all the way through before you reply. It is the same character, you aren't sacrificing your character You are progressing it by restarting at an earlier lvl with added abilities. But you are right if you don't find it fun I would encourage you not to do it. I'm not even going to question what some of that means...heh
If it's all the same character, then doesn't just increasing the xp required by 3x accomplish exactly the same ends? Again I suggest that deliberately getting someone to play the same character 3 times as opposed to getting them to trudge thru 3x the xp to reach max once is just a mask to attempt to hide that you're trying to eat up as much of their time as possible.
It almost works that way but not quite. Lets say you wanted to play a Paly lvl1-50...then a necro...then another Paly. I think you are asking (please clarify if I'm wrong). Why can't you play a Paly lvl 1-50...and then dual class into a necro from 51-100...and then back to a Paly from lvl 101-150?
The answer is now the devs have to create content for lvls 1-150. They really want mid level raids etc. That doesn't populate the world with all levels of players or extend the lvl 1-50 content.
You do understand the benefits of the system right? Constantly giving a purely personal point of view instead of viewing the benefits to the world as a whole is starting to make me think this conversation might be a waste.
Ok, fine. How does that change the basic premise of what I was suggesting ; requiring players to fully level classes that dont interest them to get the skills in the class they wish to end with?
It doesn't. I would suggest you don't play a class if it doesn't interest you at all.
Philo said:
Hear me out here because I know at this point we have disagreed a lot: We had a similar conversation a year ago...or whenever it was. I assume you still haven't played any games with this type of system?
I have played 2 games with this type of system and our disconnect is that you still don't think of the repeat play throughs as your main character. It is still your main character, just at a lower level...with added bonus abilities that you earned. It is a way to connect with your character even more than is possible in a standard system. I think if you gave it it's due dilligence someone like you who really connects with their characters will get a lot of enjoyment from this type of system.
Fey said: incentivize them to keep that character they love, make that character their ultimate focus, and give them avenues to improve that character by playing alts.
unsure what that means. You did read my post about why giving bonuses to a main character by playing alts would drive people away right? You didn't address it.
What you're arguing is sort of ironic, really. You argue that someone is playing and advancing their main, and that's all well and good. What you're not addressing is that someone focusing on their main is going to what, tell their guild "I'm sorry but I'm starting progeny on my main so I won't be available to group/raid with you on upper content for the next 3-6 months, and I hope you'll keep my spot open.".
This is yet another reason that I see this system dividing communities more than bringing them together.
It will be the norm. Everyone will be leveling and releveling together. Stoping only briefly to raid. It actually tends to bring people closer together than if they are just killing the same high end content together over and over. Characters are actually growing together. It's not ironic at all. You just to seem to not have any experience with these types of systems.
We had a very similar conversation a year ago and there are a lot of nuances to a system like this that I don't think you are going to grasp until you try it. Maybe I'll try to explain it to you again at the end of 2018. Right before pre-alpha ;)
I am having trouble understanding why an alternative to a system that no one knows barely anything about and that no has experienced for themselves yet, is being put forward. Wouldn't it be better to try it out during testing and see what it is like before proposing alternatives?
Kilsin said:I am having trouble understanding why an alternative to a system that no one knows barely anything about and that no has experienced for themselves yet, is being put forward. Wouldn't it be better to try it out during testing and see what it is like before proposing alternatives?
Agree with this 1000%
So what if you don't sacrifice your main then? What if it just put a temporary lock on that character until the progeny reaches max, at which time the benefit also extends to the main/original and that character unlocks?
I believe the idea is you get players going through the leveling content again while at the same time lessening the congestion at max level. If your max character is locked then you can't just go farm up quest items you may end up needing, taking spots in high level camps or soloing/taking lower level camps from level appropriate players, contesting raids (if they exist), or otherwise being mostly self sufficient without reliance on the community.
If the bonus is small enough then it will be a sad joke if it becomes a requirement. If it's something like +2% max hp/mana/damage as far as combat bonuses go then I'll laugh if someone suggests it as a requirement. That's small enough of a percent that I'd figure hardcore raiders wouldn't bother pursuing it for the first year+ when all content is entirely doable without the bonus...I mean unless they want to be left in the dust by other raiding guilds.
Kilsin said:I am having trouble understanding why an alternative to a system that no one knows barely anything about and that no has experienced for themselves yet, is being put forward. Wouldn't it be better to try it out during testing and see what it is like before proposing alternatives?
In fairness the thread was created well over a year ago when all we'd really heard about Progeny was basically that it was a system to "retire" a character in order to gain some kind of advantages in restarting. While some new notions have been put forth since, and even that it might not be a system thats implimented at all, we still don't really know much beyond the term "retire". Being that this is a forum specifically intended to allow us to provide opinion based on what (little) we know, it seems perfectly valid to me to raise concerns.
Perhaps a great deal of my concerns are entirely moot. Maybe even so because those concerns (shared by several) have helped flesh out the intended system to address them. If so, this discussion has born fruit.
It's also worth it to point out that if it not creating similar threads were not were not enforced, and it were not actively encouraged for people to necro 16 month old threads to revisit dead horses, we probably wouldn't even be having this exact same discussion. Again. And again. And again....
To be fair Kils, I'm sure many of us have played similar systems. We know it will have it's own nuances, but it isn't a new idea. To say it's a system no one knows anything about is like saying no one knows anything about a system where you level by gaining experience (extreme example).
I have really enjoyed my time involved in these type of "reincarnation" systems so I'm all for it. I'm excited to learn more about the specifics of Pantheon's system.
I will admit that I am guilty of being the thread necro. I have engaged in plenty of conversation surrounding the progeny topic and it's crazy to think that I somehow missed Brad's post from last year where he actually proposed a few "alternatives" of his own to the original concept. Specifically, he touched on the idea that we might not be required to permanently retire a character. There was an idea shared where we could instead sacrifice some high level gear that could offer a bonus to our offspring which could also be used as a very effective item sink. While I don't have direct experience with a "remort" system from MUD's, I do have experience with the sub-class system from FFXI and I find many similarities. It was a system that was designed to reward max level players for rolling alternate characters that allowed them to experience the game again from a different perspective. The benefits were numerous; there was a constant influx of high level players participating in all tiers of content while they worked on their sub-classes. This made it easier to find groups for new players, and not just any group, but the possibility to have a legit veteran of the game in your group really early on.
This gave new players something to aspire to. It also helped with guidance because these veterans would show the newbs the best places to grind XP and how to work their XP/Skill chains. It's not like mentoring where you need to solicit the help of a buddy ... these people were legitimately invested in your success. They wanted to level up their sub-class so teaching you how to play more optimally had a direct impact on the outcome of their own time. It was a wonderful thing for that community. It helped the economy as well because low level gear retained great value. You would see a max level player decide to reroll a new class and they would generally have some good money saved up ... they were willing to pay a premium to equip their characters with the best gear for the releveling process. There were so many factors that worked together in perfect harmony and at the end of the day, the server benefited from it just as much (if not more) than any individual player did. A low level player could get lucky and score a rare item that could be sold for a nice return that could help them coast through 10 levels without having to worry about going broke trying to buy food/drink or barely noticeable gear upgrades.
It's been mentioned many times that there are a ton of details that have yet to be set in stone for progeny. I personally think the main reason we don't know much about this system yet is because it hasn't been fully fleshed out. It seems to be a feature that could go either way ... there is a plan for it, but it's fluid. That's the interpretation I got. Prior to seeing that post, I went on rants on this forum talking about how I didn't think retirement was a good idea for this feature. Many many others shared those concerns ... yet this whole time, there was another thread laying obscure in the forum that contained very valuable insight that these concerns had actually already been considered. Maybe we won't have to retire a character? Maybe we can take advantage of all the wonderful benefits associated with progeny while minimizing the risk or volatility of the major red flag of character poofing. I'm honestly surprised that it hasn't been communicated more clearly that retirement isn't set in stone. I feel this topic would have been much better received over the last year or so that so many have been talking about it if more people knew that the system was fluid and that our primary concern wasn't in concrete standing.
With all respect to the OP, I didn't necro this thread with the idea that I am truly interested in an "alternative to progeny." Quite the opposite actually ... I would love to engage in further conversation regarding some of the possible alternatives or tweaks that were discussed by Brad. He mentioned more time would be spent on this feature "several months" down the road. Maybe all of those discussions have already taken place behind the scenes and we just aren't privy to them ... but we were able to take a glimpse into some of his speculating and theory crafting here on the forum. I personally would love to know how the feature has progressed in the areas that were discussed on that other thread. If we have to wait until testing it's not the end of the world ... but honestly, if our primary concern has already been ruled in, out or fluid, I think it would be worth mentioning at this point. Until we hear or see something solid the speculation will continue (mostly concerns or reservations) from people unfamiliar with the actual plan and that probably isn't going to help anybody. I would much rather see Brad doing the speculating or theory crafting again because there is actual substance behind it. Progeny isn't a fly by night kind of topic ... it has amazing potential and there is a reason it keeps coming up. I'm more excited about progeny than any other feature so far.
I would be hard-pressed to permanently retire a toon. I get emotionally attached to them. There's too much nostalgia to be lost in retirement.
I would want the closure of a full-on funeral with a GM/Guide officiating the ceremony on a pleasant hillside somewhere.
I wonder if player housing will have a designated area for the family burial plot?
I think part of what people get attached to is their name. Make it so you keep the same name and maybe some people will realize they aren't actually retiring their old character and starting fresh. They are adding to their characters abilities and replaying through the levels with the same character. It's the narrative of it being offspring that is part of the confusion here that is not present in other games.