Lodgedogg said: Here is something you guys who want week long lock outs fail to realize, when you have nothing to do after you kill all the raid bosses for x amount of time you get bored and either quit the game or only log in a couple days to do said content then leave until they next week. This has happened over and over and I truly don't want to see it happen again. If I find a raid boss up and I can get my guild there sweet, if someone else beats us too it oh well we should have been faster.
Lodgedogg said:
Competition breeds greatness
Syntro said:Lodgedogg said: Here is something you guys who want week long lock outs fail to realize, when you have nothing to do after you kill all the raid bosses for x amount of time you get bored and either quit the game or only log in a couple days to do said content then leave until they next week. This has happened over and over and I truly don't want to see it happen again. If I find a raid boss up and I can get my guild there sweet, if someone else beats us too it oh well we should have been faster.
I agree about not incorporating artificial time locks. What if a guild physically couldn't continually camping a raid boss due to some toxic exposure or something. The best guilds could last the longest (deservedly so), but eventually they'd have to leave and lick their wounds. I think the environmental system they are going to be implementing will force a continual flux of fresh bodies, especially at the raid level.Lodgedogg said:
Competition breeds greatness
Bro, your left arm and right arm must be in a serious competition :D
syn im always in competition with everything i promise you that. I bet you guys who all want everyone to be able to raid also want loot just for trying smh
Here are two offerings that reward the best and cultivate the rest.
1: In addition to the lockouts Kilsin mentioned(below), the initial downing of a raid target provides double its usual loot, and the first guild to down all raid targets in an expansion could trigger 2 of them at their leisure.
Or
2: Every open world raid target is FFA, but 2 weeks after each target is killed a weekly instance of that target becomes available to everyone.
Kilsin said:We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.
Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems.
Lodgedogg said:Syntro said:Lodgedogg said: Here is something you guys who want week long lock outs fail to realize, when you have nothing to do after you kill all the raid bosses for x amount of time you get bored and either quit the game or only log in a couple days to do said content then leave until they next week. This has happened over and over and I truly don't want to see it happen again. If I find a raid boss up and I can get my guild there sweet, if someone else beats us too it oh well we should have been faster.
I agree about not incorporating artificial time locks. What if a guild physically couldn't continually camping a raid boss due to some toxic exposure or something. The best guilds could last the longest (deservedly so), but eventually they'd have to leave and lick their wounds. I think the environmental system they are going to be implementing will force a continual flux of fresh bodies, especially at the raid level.Lodgedogg said:
Competition breeds greatness
Bro, your left arm and right arm must be in a serious competition :Dsyn im always in competition with everything i promise you that. I bet you guys who all want everyone to be able to raid also want loot just for trying smh
Just to make something clear, for arguments sake, I don't think people who want instanced raids are looking for free loot. Now, I can only speak for myself, but when I ask for instances, it has nothing to do with free stuff. In fact, I want the opposite. I want an extremely challenging encounter that could take over 200 wipes. But, there is no way this can be done in the open world. Sure, I could go attack a mob 10 levels higher than me and die 200 times, but that is not what I mean.
Basically, there is no way you can have an open world raid that is a true challenge. And, by challenge, I don't mean fighting the 15 year old kid who hasn't slept in a week camping the boss. I mean a real challenge. A real raid, with real mechanics, that require real coordination. I don't want free stuff. I want a challenge. But, a challenge should come from good game design and not lazy design hiding behind who can stay online the longest. I am sorry, but skill does not mean getting to a boss first. Skill is killing it because you have a talented team. And, talent does not come from being able to play all day because you have no job. It comes from skill.
I think competition for raid mobs is a good thing and it bred compeition between guilds that overflowed onto forums. I remember reading the server forums for my old server in EQ and loving hearing about all the competition between the high end raid guilds. That kind of community interaction just doesn't happen in newer MMOs where everything is instanced or there are lock out tiners. I'd love to see some competition in the game and feeling that if you really wanted to be the best you have to put in a hell of a lot of hard work to get there.
I want the best geared players on a server to be people you think "Wow! That guy must have put in a hell of a lot of hours to get that gear and must be really good at the game to get where he is". That is the sort of thing I'd really like to see.
Also bring back server forums so that the community can interact with each other outside of the game and give people a chance to get to know each other even if they don't group up in game or are in different guilds.
Cromulent said: I think competition for raid mobs is a good thing and it bred compeition between guilds that overflowed onto forums. ...
Anticlergy said: ... Basically, there is no way you can have an open world raid that is a true challenge. ...
Sounds like VR needs to have both open world raids/bosses and instanced raids/bosses. :) At all levels.
I think this is relevant. This was from Brad's AMA a month ago:
Q: wondering if there will be high-level instanced content like vanilla/tbc wow raids, with bosses with multiple mechanics that offer a really difficult challenge. I fell like this is impossible to do outiside of an instance because bosses would just be zerg by 100+ players.
A: No instanced combat. Dungeons will be huge and shared. Certain areas and specific mobs may be assigned to the group that got their first, leaving others to more passive roles, but you will be in the same environment. As for zerging and other similar behaviors, mobs in Pantheon will not simply stick around and be destroyed by vast numbers of players -- they will act and react, whether that means leaving the area, calling in friends, etc.
As of now, it looks like they are exploring the improved AI to solve the concerns raised here - not instancing.
Anticlergy said:@Dullahan I am sorry, but this kind of thinking seems to reward having no life as opposed to skill. With this kind of thinking, the guild who has the most people online, or the most people who don't have a job, will get the best rewards. With this kind of thinking, guilds that have been downing some of the most mechanically challenging content in mmo's for years, will not stand a chance at progression against the mob of teenagers or no-lifers.
I am sorry. I get that you are passionate about things such as this from your post history. But, if you truly want this game to succeed, you may want to open your mind a bit. Because, if you really think that this game won't be a free-to-play game in about a year with just the people in these forums playing it, then I would prepare for that to happen. I know this is going to be a niche game, but money speaks louder than words in real life. I promise you that no matter what, the Devs will be trying to make money. And, with shallow design decisions, like recreating EQ with better graphics, it is not going to work in today's day and age.
So, my suggestion to the Devs is to balance content. Give progression raiders that epic raid. Give them an instance where they can coordinate with their guild. And, for those that think camping and scheduling raid times with 15 other guilds is fun, give them world bosses. Basically, and I will say it again, open-world content will most likely be lazy raid design. I find it hard to beleive that an open-world encounter can be mechanically challenging and be beaten. Furthermore, I have looked at videos from my own guild from the Vanguard days and from the EQ days and I have yet to see anything that looked liked a true mechanic. Basically, I saw littel to no movement, and not much stuff on the ground. All I saw was slow toons attacking slowly and standing still. And, this was supposed to be the highest content in the game.
I hope to god that the Devs read this. I would still love to see a response. But, while I truly do want this game to succeed, or else I wouldn't have donated money, I feel that they are doomed to repeat past mistakes. And, I also think that if they don't reconsider, we will hear the usual PR from them. It will be something along the lines of " We have decided to go F2P in order to get new people into the world." And, when the servers do shut down at some point, we will hear the same thing that was said about Vanguard. We will hear that there were all these great ideas that were not able to be in the game and that they learned from their mistakes. But, if they want to learn, please just reconsider your target audience. Make content for ALL people.
If you are going to comment on my posts, do me a favor and read it first next time.
What I suggested actually offers ways to provide everyone with legitimate chances at rare high end content without making it instanced and removing the exclusivity that content is meant to offer. Those who play the most should be rewarded for doing so or the incentive they have to continue playing is destroyed. However, there are still ways to provide ways for those not on the cutting edge to get a shot at highly contested content (as outlined in my post).
Lets just look at history of mmos. Those MMOs utilizing your system (rightly called a socialist system by @Kilaen) which allows everyone regardless of time they have to invested, with opportunities to to achieve everything, has destroyed the very reason that people originally played MMORPGs. Just like in real life, socialism stifles ambition and motivation as well as curtails innovation. It has had the same effect on the virtual worlds of mmorpgs.
I'd argue that the cause for F2P is quite the opposite of what you are suggesting. Its the fact that these games fail to create a rewarding system of progression and achievement that they have been forced to rely on free to play monetization. EQ survived for almost a decade without compromising. The vast majority of the rest had to go f2p with few exceptions.
Not everyone is meant to get everything. In fact, if the game is designed right, not even the best most hardcore players get everything. No one had best in slot everything on live EQ. That is almost entirely a P99 thing or games with slow development. It wasn't an EQ thing.
Lodgedogg said:How can you possibly say an open world raid encounter can not be challenging id love to hear this theory please
Not knocking on a great game like EQ! or anytihng in fact i am still playing this game on a TLP server, but Naggy, Vox, Cazic, Severious, The other 3 open world dragons in kunark, Telknorear, Gozzrem, Aaryonar, Dagarn the Destroyer, Dozerkar the Cursed, and many more dragons in ToV that were tank n spank fights, granted this was a very old game and i still love it to today especially from original to before PoP, and this was also one of the first MMO's and probably wasnt thinking of raiding in the big picture as for mechanics and everything. Which honestly is probably the case had some small AoE or a guy who DT's from time to time to scare away raiding parties but once you knew when these things would happen is was pretty easy to kill these said targets i got above. I WILL SAY AGAIN i will EQ! and that is an incredible game, but the early raid content just wasnt that hard, granted now that it is 17 years later im sure Verant is reading this and is like i got a special Raid Target for you just you watch, and honestly i can't wait.
If you are going to comment on my posts, do me a favor and read it first next time.
What I suggested actually offers ways to provide everyone with legitimate chances at rare high end content without making it instanced and removing the exclusivity that content is meant to offer. Those who play the most should be rewarded for doing so or the incentive they have to continue playing is destroyed. However, there are still ways to provide ways for those not on the cutting edge to get a shot at highly contested content (as outlined in my post).
Lets just look at history of mmos. Those MMOs utilizing your system (rightly called a socialist system by @Kilaen) which allows everyone regardless of time they have to invested, with opportunities to to achieve everything, has destroyed the very reason that people originally played MMORPGs. Just like in real life, socialism stifles ambition and motivation as well as curtails innovation. It has had the same effect on the virtual worlds of mmorpgs.
I'd argue that the cause for F2P is quite the opposite of what you are suggesting. Its the fact that these games fail to create a rewarding system of progression and achievement that they have been forced to rely on free to play monetization. EQ survived for almost a decade without compromising. The vast majority of the rest had to go f2p with few exceptions.
Not everyone is meant to get everything. In fact, if the game is designed right, not even the best most hardcore players get everything. No one had best in slot everything on live EQ. That is almost entirely a P99 thing or games with slow development. It wasn't an EQ thing.
Actully this isn't completely correct once Velious came out seeing people with there high end gear wasn't all that hard to see it just wasn't, granted i wasn't in any raid gear as for i was just like 16 or something and i was more into making sure i was doing my homework and hanging out with friends and stuff like that but i know i saw a lot of people in NToV gear, and all that stuff, so honestly your statement about not having slot filled with the best of the best might be a lil true but lets face it if they were in a guild good they had 2nd or 3rd.
Dullahan said:Anticlergy said:@Dullahan I am sorry, but this kind of thinking seems to reward having no life as opposed to skill. With this kind of thinking, the guild who has the most people online, or the most people who don't have a job, will get the best rewards. With this kind of thinking, guilds that have been downing some of the most mechanically challenging content in mmo's for years, will not stand a chance at progression against the mob of teenagers or no-lifers.
I am sorry. I get that you are passionate about things such as this from your post history. But, if you truly want this game to succeed, you may want to open your mind a bit. Because, if you really think that this game won't be a free-to-play game in about a year with just the people in these forums playing it, then I would prepare for that to happen. I know this is going to be a niche game, but money speaks louder than words in real life. I promise you that no matter what, the Devs will be trying to make money. And, with shallow design decisions, like recreating EQ with better graphics, it is not going to work in today's day and age.
So, my suggestion to the Devs is to balance content. Give progression raiders that epic raid. Give them an instance where they can coordinate with their guild. And, for those that think camping and scheduling raid times with 15 other guilds is fun, give them world bosses. Basically, and I will say it again, open-world content will most likely be lazy raid design. I find it hard to beleive that an open-world encounter can be mechanically challenging and be beaten. Furthermore, I have looked at videos from my own guild from the Vanguard days and from the EQ days and I have yet to see anything that looked liked a true mechanic. Basically, I saw littel to no movement, and not much stuff on the ground. All I saw was slow toons attacking slowly and standing still. And, this was supposed to be the highest content in the game.
I hope to god that the Devs read this. I would still love to see a response. But, while I truly do want this game to succeed, or else I wouldn't have donated money, I feel that they are doomed to repeat past mistakes. And, I also think that if they don't reconsider, we will hear the usual PR from them. It will be something along the lines of " We have decided to go F2P in order to get new people into the world." And, when the servers do shut down at some point, we will hear the same thing that was said about Vanguard. We will hear that there were all these great ideas that were not able to be in the game and that they learned from their mistakes. But, if they want to learn, please just reconsider your target audience. Make content for ALL people.
If you are going to comment on my posts, do me a favor and read it first next time.
What I suggested actually offers ways to provide everyone with legitimate chances at rare high end content without making it instanced and removing the exclusivity that content is meant to offer. Those who play the most should be rewarded for doing so or the incentive they have to continue playing is destroyed. However, there are still ways to provide ways for those not on the cutting edge to get a shot at highly contested content (as outlined in my post).
Lets just look at history of mmos. Those MMOs utilizing your system (rightly called a socialist system by @Kilaen) which allows everyone regardless of time they have to invested, with opportunities to to achieve everything, has destroyed the very reason that people originally played MMORPGs. Just like in real life, socialism stifles ambition and motivation as well as curtails innovation. It has had the same effect on the virtual worlds of mmorpgs.
I'd argue that the cause for F2P is quite the opposite of what you are suggesting. Its the fact that these games fail to create a rewarding system of progression and achievement that they have been forced to rely on free to play monetization. EQ survived for almost a decade without compromising. The vast majority of the rest had to go f2p with few exceptions.
Not everyone is meant to get everything. In fact, if the game is designed right, not even the best most hardcore players get everything. No one had best in slot everything on live EQ. That is almost entirely a P99 thing or games with slow development. It wasn't an EQ thing.
@Dullahan. I have read your posts. I have read many of them actually. And, I was very hesitant to post something directed at you because I figured the point would be missed. But, because I feel the need to try again, I am hoping that you can open your mind. Personally, I could care less who does high end content. But, you need to see that it is not who does it, but who can complete it that is my point. Your seuggestions seem to imply that some content just should not be accessible to people. But, why should it be locked if there is no way in hell some people can kill it? What does it matter to you if a bunch of bad players try if you and your group have it on farm?
This is my point. Content should be able to be attempted but not cleared by people who lack the proper skill. All I am saying is that the best players should be rewarded based on skill. Furthrermore, I also agree that people who play more will get better things. This is the case with many world first guilds. But, camping a mob for 2 days is not skill. That is mindless. Skill is dowining a hard encounter with your team.
But, I am not going to argue with you man. I feel that you are set in your ways and I respect that. But, I promise you that VR is making a mistake if they don't think this through. Now, I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it. I see excuses in the future instead of just evolviong with the times.
And finally, please feel free to link me a mechanically challenging EQ or Vanguard encounter. I would love to see more than just standing still and attacking a named mob.
Anticlergy said:Dullahan said:Anticlergy said:@Dullahan I am sorry, but this kind of thinking seems to reward having no life as opposed to skill. With this kind of thinking, the guild who has the most people online, or the most people who don't have a job, will get the best rewards. With this kind of thinking, guilds that have been downing some of the most mechanically challenging content in mmo's for years, will not stand a chance at progression against the mob of teenagers or no-lifers.
I am sorry. I get that you are passionate about things such as this from your post history. But, if you truly want this game to succeed, you may want to open your mind a bit. Because, if you really think that this game won't be a free-to-play game in about a year with just the people in these forums playing it, then I would prepare for that to happen. I know this is going to be a niche game, but money speaks louder than words in real life. I promise you that no matter what, the Devs will be trying to make money. And, with shallow design decisions, like recreating EQ with better graphics, it is not going to work in today's day and age.
So, my suggestion to the Devs is to balance content. Give progression raiders that epic raid. Give them an instance where they can coordinate with their guild. And, for those that think camping and scheduling raid times with 15 other guilds is fun, give them world bosses. Basically, and I will say it again, open-world content will most likely be lazy raid design. I find it hard to beleive that an open-world encounter can be mechanically challenging and be beaten. Furthermore, I have looked at videos from my own guild from the Vanguard days and from the EQ days and I have yet to see anything that looked liked a true mechanic. Basically, I saw littel to no movement, and not much stuff on the ground. All I saw was slow toons attacking slowly and standing still. And, this was supposed to be the highest content in the game.
I hope to god that the Devs read this. I would still love to see a response. But, while I truly do want this game to succeed, or else I wouldn't have donated money, I feel that they are doomed to repeat past mistakes. And, I also think that if they don't reconsider, we will hear the usual PR from them. It will be something along the lines of " We have decided to go F2P in order to get new people into the world." And, when the servers do shut down at some point, we will hear the same thing that was said about Vanguard. We will hear that there were all these great ideas that were not able to be in the game and that they learned from their mistakes. But, if they want to learn, please just reconsider your target audience. Make content for ALL people.
If you are going to comment on my posts, do me a favor and read it first next time.
What I suggested actually offers ways to provide everyone with legitimate chances at rare high end content without making it instanced and removing the exclusivity that content is meant to offer. Those who play the most should be rewarded for doing so or the incentive they have to continue playing is destroyed. However, there are still ways to provide ways for those not on the cutting edge to get a shot at highly contested content (as outlined in my post).
Lets just look at history of mmos. Those MMOs utilizing your system (rightly called a socialist system by @Kilaen) which allows everyone regardless of time they have to invested, with opportunities to to achieve everything, has destroyed the very reason that people originally played MMORPGs. Just like in real life, socialism stifles ambition and motivation as well as curtails innovation. It has had the same effect on the virtual worlds of mmorpgs.
I'd argue that the cause for F2P is quite the opposite of what you are suggesting. Its the fact that these games fail to create a rewarding system of progression and achievement that they have been forced to rely on free to play monetization. EQ survived for almost a decade without compromising. The vast majority of the rest had to go f2p with few exceptions.
Not everyone is meant to get everything. In fact, if the game is designed right, not even the best most hardcore players get everything. No one had best in slot everything on live EQ. That is almost entirely a P99 thing or games with slow development. It wasn't an EQ thing.
@Dullahan. I have read your posts. I have read many of them actually. And, I was very hesitant to post something directed at you because I figured the point would be missed. But, because I feel the need to try again, I am hoping that you can open your mind. Personally, I could care less who does high end content. But, you need to see that it is not who does it, but who can complete it that is my point. Your seuggestions seem to imply that some content just should not be accessible to people. But, why should it be locked if there is no way in hell some people can kill it? What does it matter to you if a bunch of bad players try if you and your group have it on farm?
This is my point. Content should be able to be attempted but not cleared by people who lack the proper skill. All I am saying is that the best players should be rewarded based on skill. Furthrermore, I also agree that people who play more will get better things. This is the case with many world first guilds. But, camping a mob for 2 days is not skill. That is mindless. Skill is dowining a hard encounter with your team.
But, I am not going to argue with you man. I feel that you are set in your ways and I respect that. But, I promise you that VR is making a mistake if they don't think this through. Now, I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it. I see excuses in the future instead of just evolviong with the times.
And finally, please feel free to link me a mechanically challenging EQ or Vanguard encounter. I would love to see more than just standing still and attacking a named mob.
To be completely Honest on the EQ front the mechanical raid fights didn't really start happening til like Luclin but mainly PoP and furthermore, and even some of the newer fights on the Live server for some classes your just standing there. Vanguard i have no clue, i didn't play it and honestly i wish i had so i could of commented on it and also enjoyed playing another game by the original eq cast or some of them anyway. Now i can say that a lot of WoW fights are also no brainers like i'm standing in a red circle maybe i should move and finally after like 5 seconds it goes off i dont want this kind of mechanic either, that just more annoying than being mechanic.
What i want is like a Raid boss Wipes Aggro and puts a Debuff on current Target for 15 seconds where he can't cuase aggro so another tak has to pick it up and he does it every 10 Seconds and cuasing An AoE where he's Draining Mana if in LoS and does a Cleave attack that does an insane amount of damage if your in front of him, that goes off from time to time, have it to where he Rampages on a target like they did in EQ so you have to have a Ramp tank and make sure he has Healers, And after certain intervals he goes into a stage where he cant take damage and does like a Whirlwind or maybe does something to the enviroment where you have to watch where your going or have to kill additional mobs and if they lets say get to the raid boss they explode and cuase the area to explode your raid takes damage or if that get near a player they explode so they have to be kited around and killed from a distance or killed very fast to make sure they dont make there destination, and than once he's out of that phase he becomes a different fight kinda like hitting a different phase and instead of putting a Debuff on a tank that cuasing No aggro he makes it to where he cuases Additional Aagro and he he has it main aggro for the next 7 seconds he instantly dies and empowers the raid target, and hes AoE instead of Mana Draining targets Hit he Silences them instead. Things like this will keep your players moving Constantly around making sure that they dont get hit. and honestly this fight if done right could be an awesome fight and i hope i see something like this.
Anticlergy said:@Dullahan. I have read your posts. I have read many of them actually. And, I was very hesitant to post something directed at you because I figured the point would be missed. But, because I feel the need to try again, I am hoping that you can open your mind. Personally, I could care less who does high end content. But, you need to see that it is not who does it, but who can complete it that is my point. Your seuggestions seem to imply that some content just should not be accessible to people. But, why should it be locked if there is no way in hell some people can kill it? What does it matter to you if a bunch of bad players try if you and your group have it on farm?
This is my point. Content should be able to be attempted but not cleared by people who lack the proper skill. All I am saying is that the best players should be rewarded based on skill. Furthrermore, I also agree that people who play more will get better things. This is the case with many world first guilds. But, camping a mob for 2 days is not skill. That is mindless. Skill is dowining a hard encounter with your team.
Again, that is exactly what my suggestions have addressed. By having 1) simulated repops (or patch days) where all mobs are simultaneously spawned, 2) variance (that is, random mob respawn times), and 3) mobs that require an entire raid to check their status, it would mean your average guild has a chance of logging in on a patch day or coming across a random repop while delving into raid areas. All the predictability which people were able to lock down mobs in EQ would be eliminated at that point. Yes, the hardcore players who go from dungeon to dungeon checking every mob as a guild or those that log on 30+ people upon server repop will achieve the most, but by no means will they be capable of monopolizing content under those circumstances.
Anticlergy said:But, I am not going to argue with you man. I feel that you are set in your ways and I respect that. But, I promise you that VR is making a mistake if they don't think this through. Now, I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it. I see excuses in the future instead of just evolviong with the times.
You continue to suggest that it would be a mistake contrary the evidence that we both have that catering to the lowest common denominator is an even greater mistake. Just look at every mmo in the last decade. Even WoW, one of the few that still manages to keep a p2p system loses half their playerbase a matter of weeks after each new expansion. I'm sorry, but everything points to convenience being extremely hazardous to a game like Pantheon. This game is being created for people who want something different: a game where your achievements take time and really mean something.
Anticlergy said:And finally, please feel free to link me a mechanically challenging EQ or Vanguard encounter. I would love to see more than just standing still and attacking a named mob.
EQ was more about knowledge, preparation and social challenges than it was about skill checks. Thats not to say I don't want greater mechanical difficulty with Pantheon, but that it was an mmorpg, not an action combat game.
At this point, I think everyone knows the pros and cons of instancing and/or lockouts and have drawn their line in the sand.
I have a few questions for those that want instancing or lockouts. The main one being why? If you love Pantheon (and hopefully the journey is that EQ great), wouldn't you want to always have that dangling carrot? Why would you want the journey to be over quicker? Why would you want to achieve everything and be effectively done?
Let's assume you are correct that 1 guild could lockdown everything, which, if Dullahan's suggestions were used, I don't think they would be. But, let's assume that the raids are. Why must you feel cheated that you're not part of the 1%? Why not just feel satisfied that you're playing a great game with depth, that include social challenges and competition, and there are people that have better gear than you and are able to lock down content because they have no external life. I'd arguy envy (and frustration) in an MMORPG is a good thing - it gives you something to continually strive for. Why do you look at this as a negative? Worst case scenario if you're correct that 1 guild is locking down all raid content is that the content won't open up till the following expansion. And, at that point, your guild (s) can have their fair share and be a part of the 10% that is locking out the other 90%. A bigger part of this scenario is that all past raid loot shouldn't be trivialized by new expansion gear and that itemization will be hugely important.
A final thought - Brad has been on record saying the game will be formed around the group, so, perhaps an additional option instead of instancing or lockouts would be to have smaller tier raid bosses within the raid dungeon itself be on a faster spawn timer than the main bosses so even if the "lesser guilds" that may only 2 groups who couldn't get to the main raid bosses could still have their fair share of raid loot.
Kilsin said:We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.
Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems.
Sounds great.
I would love to know who figured out the "push" mechanic in EQ1.
Soneone also stated that there was BiS gear in EQ1 in Velious that "most" people had. I very much disagree. I played on Veeshan and every tank looked at Furor to see what the best tank gear was. Every ranger (or was is rogue) looked at Sean to see what they should be wearing.
There was a clear line in the sand when looking at fulltime raid members of the top teir guilds and everyone else. I think the Main tank from Celetial Tomb had a heart from a mob in Plane of Fear that only dropped the first time the mob was killed.
I am super excited to see what the VR team has cooked up to set us on our heels.
I havent played in several months but just look at p99. Raid targets have been locked down by 2 guilds for years. Yes the competiton between those 2 guilds is fierce but if you are in a more casual guild then youre screwed.
edit: this guy says it beter than me https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/4fw6qw/lets_really_talk_about_high_end_raiding_on_p99/
"The big two guilds work their asses off for that content. That's their choice, but not every guild runs 100 deep on a raid, or even 60 deep at 4am EST, in order to get that dragon dead 3 minutes from spawn. We can't field 20+ racers for 12 hours every single week, hell most weeks we can't field 5. This isn't because we're bad at P99 raiding, it's because it's not fun for us. I won't speak for the other casual raiding guilds, but in BDA we want to experience content, but we want to actually play the game. Watching a screenshare instead of actually bind sighting because the bard needs to have selos going as soon as the dragon pops to win the race is very very gross, but it's what is absolutely necessary if a guild wants to earn those Velious pixels. In fact, it's what is also required to earn Kunark pixels in the Peak. For a Phara Dar the other week BDA sunk in over 120 man hours of tracking, being prepped and ready to run up for FTE across 14+ hours. That is the most hours we ever sunk into a single raid target, and it was a turning point for our guild. We aren't going to do that anymore. It wasn't fun. It made people angry. It sucked the life out of people"
I would hate to see Pantheon turn into something like this. Admittedly this is worst case scenerio stuff but it did happen. It happened in classic EQ too.
Rallyd said:Thunndar said:Dullahan said:Thunndar said: You aren't entitled to the 6 pack at the gym but you are allowed to use the equipment.That is a pretty loose application of that analogy. There are a lot of things the average person can't do in a gym. Sure, they can use most of the equipment, but not the way other people use it. Just because you lay on the bench doesn't mean you can lift the weight.
The equipment is logging in and playing the game. If you want to accomplish something once logged in, you have to put forth the time and effort.
In EQ, everyone could raid. There were always some raid that anyone could take part in. On the server I played on originally (Tarew Marr), there were pick up raids in the plane of fear and hate. I got almost my entire set of planar "raid" armor by doing this. That didn't mean I was entitled to kill CT or Inny. That was something you had to work harder for. As soon as everyone is entitled to kill every raid target, that changes everything. What you will end up with is a game where players have to raid, because there is no excuse not to have the best gear... everyone else will.
Everyone who pays to play the game IS entitled to try. Success though, is something else entirely. Nobody is asking for an I win button.
I've been playing MMO since 99. Since EQ beta. I've been in big guilds and small guilds and raid only guilds and server alliances of all kinds.
I can't stand it when the elite try and say who can play this content and who can't.
Nobody is saying we should restrict players from raiding, like segregation or something... all I see people saying.. and I agree with them, is that raid content should not be designed around the lowest common denominator like it has been since EQ. Lowest common denominator meaning the thing that all players share.. which is that they can play the game for more than 1 hour a day.
It is my opinion that if exclusivity of raiding is removed for Pantheon, and the majority of raid content is "lockout" based, that this game will not be nearly as successful as it could have been. It should be like a real world as much as possible, and in the real world, resources are consumed, not replicated for every single human being's desire.
In the real world, if you kill something then it is gone forever. So I guess the raid mobs should only be killable once, by the very first group who takes them down, and then forever be gone. Anything else would ruin immersion. What could be more false than killing a mob and then seeing it strut around like nothing happened a few days later?
Drull said:I havent played in several months but just look at p99. Raid targets have been locked down by 2 guilds for years. Yes the competiton between those 2 guilds is fierce but if you are in a more casual guild then youre screwed.
edit: this guy says it beter than me https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/4fw6qw/lets_really_talk_about_high_end_raiding_on_p99/
"The big two guilds work their asses off for that content. That's their choice, but not every guild runs 100 deep on a raid, or even 60 deep at 4am EST, in order to get that dragon dead 3 minutes from spawn. We can't field 20+ racers for 12 hours every single week, hell most weeks we can't field 5. This isn't because we're bad at P99 raiding, it's because it's not fun for us. I won't speak for the other casual raiding guilds, but in BDA we want to experience content, but we want to actually play the game. Watching a screenshare instead of actually bind sighting because the bard needs to have selos going as soon as the dragon pops to win the race is very very gross, but it's what is absolutely necessary if a guild wants to earn those Velious pixels. In fact, it's what is also required to earn Kunark pixels in the Peak. For a Phara Dar the other week BDA sunk in over 120 man hours of tracking, being prepped and ready to run up for FTE across 14+ hours. That is the most hours we ever sunk into a single raid target, and it was a turning point for our guild. We aren't going to do that anymore. It wasn't fun. It made people angry. It sucked the life out of people"
I would hate to see Pantheon turn into something like this. Admittedly this is worst case scenerio stuff but it did happen. It happened in classic EQ too.
Classic EQ raid scene was nothing like p99 because the environment was totally different. People weren't sitting around in the same expansions for years. A small fraction of the overall playerbase was ever max level in the early years, and only a small subset of that population raided.
I was never in a top raiding guild in either of the two servers I played on, and I killed raid targets on a regular basis. When people don't have years to camp alts at every mob spawn, every single timer, and have to contend with regular server resets and repops, its impossible to lock anything down the way it exists on P99.
Classic EQ raid scene was nothing like p99 because the environment was totally different. People weren't sitting around in the same expansions for years. A small fraction of the overall playerbase was ever max level in the early years, and only a small subset of that population raided.
I was never in a top raiding guild in either of the two servers I played on, and I killed raid targets on a regular basis. When people don't have years to camp alts at every mob spawn, every single timer, and have to contend with regular server resets and repops, its impossible to lock anything down the way it exists on P99.
Yeah I should have quantified that with "to a lesser extent" that is why I mentioned it was worst case scenerio. CB'ing still happened though and I guess thats the crux of the question. Instead of the racing and time-sinking that defines the competion maybe it could be manifested in a different way?
Example:
Setup a raid league. (something like an intramural football league)
Points scored determined by:
1. Strength of target
2. Time to kill
3. Deaths of raid members(negative affect)
4. a "par" for the number of the raid group that kills the target. So a raid target has a par of 40 (meaning it should take 40 players to kill the target), if you do it with 30 players you get bonus pts, negative points if your raid has more than 40.
Have 4 seasons per year (3 months). Winner of the last season gets a banner or something proclaiming they are BMOC.
Set up different leagues to accomodate different paly syles (League 1. all out no resrictions score as many points as you can, League 2. can only hit 2 targets a week, etc..)
Have Raid targets morph, kill it 10 times it morphs on 11 having more hp, def, new moves and new loot table. Kill 20 more times it morphs again and so on. Making the best gear less available.
Have rankings listed in easiliy available Ranking Board in each town.
Hardcore: Add betting of in game currency between guilds on who wins single match or season.
Hardcore extreme: Bet means permadeath to losing guild (joking but it would be interesting).
This is just an example but my point is that the rules to the competion could be redfined instead of who can stay online the longest.
I can't recall all these issues with raiding, and I raided quite a bit. There was one guild on our server at that time that was considered pretty hardcore but they moved so much faster that by the time I had leveled my cleric to 49 and started going to PoH they were doing other things. With the other guilds that raided we had arrangements and schedules, and often we'd bring people of other guilds or they took a number of us with them. I can recall only one fight with a Kunark dragon that was a mess and complete mayhem with several competing groups, but that was a funny experience.
I'm guessing the size of raids helped a great deal, it wasn't easy gathering the amount of people needed and it promoted alliances between guilds on our server. That in itself pretty much guaranteed that a lot of guilds were very decent and considerate with each other. You never knew when you'd need a few of their healers or MT :D. My guess is that bigger raidgroups combined with multiple raid locations and roaming world bosses both on variable spawn timers would go quite a long way.
Drull said:I havent played in several months but just look at p99. Raid targets have been locked down by 2 guilds for years. Yes the competiton between those 2 guilds is fierce but if you are in a more casual guild then youre screwed.
edit: this guy says it beter than me https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/4fw6qw/lets_really_talk_about_high_end_raiding_on_p99/
"The big two guilds work their asses off for that content. That's their choice, but not every guild runs 100 deep on a raid, or even 60 deep at 4am EST, in order to get that dragon dead 3 minutes from spawn. We can't field 20+ racers for 12 hours every single week, hell most weeks we can't field 5. This isn't because we're bad at P99 raiding, it's because it's not fun for us. I won't speak for the other casual raiding guilds, but in BDA we want to experience content, but we want to actually play the game. Watching a screenshare instead of actually bind sighting because the bard needs to have selos going as soon as the dragon pops to win the race is very very gross, but it's what is absolutely necessary if a guild wants to earn those Velious pixels. In fact, it's what is also required to earn Kunark pixels in the Peak. For a Phara Dar the other week BDA sunk in over 120 man hours of tracking, being prepped and ready to run up for FTE across 14+ hours. That is the most hours we ever sunk into a single raid target, and it was a turning point for our guild. We aren't going to do that anymore. It wasn't fun. It made people angry. It sucked the life out of people"
I would hate to see Pantheon turn into something like this. Admittedly this is worst case scenerio stuff but it did happen. It happened in classic EQ too.
The problem with P99 is that the server has a HUGE population. Many more than were on classic EQ servers back in 1999 so there are more people fighting for a lesser number of raid targets and the fact that they won't release any expansions past Velious just makes the problem even worse. Everyday more people sign up to P99 but the number of raid targets never increases with it. In classic EQ new expansions came out every 6 - 18 months and they added more raid content so that lower tiered guilds could go after the old expansion content while the high tier guilds could go after the current expansion. That way everyone had targets they could raid.
I doubt we will see the same problems that P99 experiences in Pantheon. I'm hoping that Pantheon will have regular expansions released for it and that those expansions will keep adding new raids so that the population always has something new to raid. Plus there are also level cap rises to take into account as well. So yeah I doubt we'll see the same problems as we do on P99.