Thanakos said:I don't envy any developer trying to create enough content to keep both Hardcore and casual players who want to raid happy. I just hope there is enough grouping content to keep me busy and able to do an occasional raid when I want a change of pace.
I think where you run into trouble is when a large portion of the player base is funneled into raiding to further improve their characters.
I juste hope they don't fall in the same trap as WoW did. Making a couple of dungeon with easy mode, normal, hard, very hard, very hard+1 and repeat the same pattern with their raid.
If I clear a raid on easy mode, why would I do it again? For better items? Who cares, I already saw all the content!
What you really need is design different raids for each difficulties. Instead of 1 raid with 5 difficulties level, make 5 different raids that are harder than the previous ones. I know this is way more work but you don't need to release all the raids on day 1, unless you make the first ones way too easy.
I'd say at the beginning of the game there should be alrdy 2 raid target available, but more than likely one of them be almost impossible to gear witht he gear at hand to defeat it, not saying it isnt possible for him to be deafeated but something to keep the raid partied/guilds interested in how to triumphed over the target he feel a sense of accomplishment when killing him and know it won't be an everyday thing even with the same amount of people. Makes it actually feel like a raid instead of something you just throw a ton of people at and be like well sense that's out of the way what did he drop this time.
Raidan said:At this point, I think everyone knows the pros and cons of instancing and/or lockouts and have drawn their line in the sand.
I have a few questions for those that want instancing or lockouts. The main one being why? If you love Pantheon (and hopefully the journey is that EQ great), wouldn't you want to always have that dangling carrot? Why would you want the journey to be over quicker? Why would you want to achieve everything and be effectively done?
I don't want achieve things or journeys quicker. That's the reason why i'm still playing WoW vanilla on a private server and not on an official one. :-)
The point is, many mmorpgs failed badly because the players runned out of content. They hit max level and then there was nothing to do. Such thing can easily happen in themepark games and Pantheon will be a themepark game. How many people are actually working on Pantheon? 20? It is 1/4 to 1/10 in comparison to other companies. For WoW Legion there was a staff of over 230 people. And when the other companies could not create enough content with a 100+ persons staff then i highly doubt that VR can do this with 20 people. The decision for non-instanced content will exacerbate this situation because you can not open an instance with a clean copy of the special content for you.
It will be interesting to see how VR will handle this situation. And i'm sure they will use other immersion breaking things like raid lockouts or they will limit the server population very hard.
Greetings
Larirawiel said:Raidan said:At this point, I think everyone knows the pros and cons of instancing and/or lockouts and have drawn their line in the sand.
I have a few questions for those that want instancing or lockouts. The main one being why? If you love Pantheon (and hopefully the journey is that EQ great), wouldn't you want to always have that dangling carrot? Why would you want the journey to be over quicker? Why would you want to achieve everything and be effectively done?
I don't want achieve things or journeys quicker. That's the reason why i'm still playing WoW vanilla on a private server and not on an official one. :-)
The point is, many mmorpgs failed badly because the players runned out of content. They hit max level and then there was nothing to do. Such thing can easily happen in themepark games and Pantheon will be a themepark game. How many people are actually working on Pantheon? 20? It is 1/4 to 1/10 in comparison to other companies. For WoW Legion there was a staff of over 230 people. And when the other companies could not create enough content with a 100+ persons staff then i highly doubt that VR can do this with 20 people. The decision for non-instanced content will exacerbate this situation because you can not open an instance with a clean copy of the special content for you.
It will be interesting to see how VR will handle this situation. And i'm sure they will use other immersion breaking things like raid lockouts or they will limit the server population very hard.
Greetings
Much like EQ and VG, Pantheon will be so drastically different than "themepark" games, its really no longer an accurate description. Themepark games were about following the path around and riding all the rides with minimal resistance and maximum accessibility. They were simple, had limited optional paths and the experience of one player was nearly identical to any other. In short, they lacked any depth and the player had little impact on the world itself.
By all accounts, that is almost exactly the opposite of what Pantheon will be. Its not just that the game will be harder, but that there will be enough depth and variation that the places and things one player may do will differ from another. Such will also require greater coordination among players and commitment of time.
If a themepark is waiting in line to ride all the rides, EQ in that respect was not a themepark because not everyone went to all the same places or experienced the same things. After 17 years, I still play EQ every so often, and each time through I learn new things, experience in different areas, and complete different quests. Such will be the case with Pantheon and that is the reason why it's naturally predisposed to be a more enduring experience.
One thing about Pantheon that will hopefully seperate it from other games is that the encounters, content, and mechanics will be more difficult and/or require more skill and time. One problem that WoW has is that it's content is just so easy. I played during WotLK and breezed through the entire expansion in less than a month despite also being full time employed. The content was just very easy. I could complete multiple quests and entire areas in just one hour. When things are that easy, it won't mater how much content there is.
It is my expectation that like EQ, VG, and a few others, the content will be difficult enough and require skill and patience such that breezing through an end game dungeon just will not be possible.
For old EQ fans: Think about Chardok in 2000. Did anyone just 'breeze' through the royals in like 12-15 minutes? And that wasn't even a true, proper raid encounter. (like Trak or something) I suppose later on, an expansion or two later it became easier, but at first it was slow. It took a whole night to do that! And success wasn't guaranteed. I can see the raid text right now in my head about all of the adds we kept getting. ;P
I dont mind difficulty. As long as difficulty doesnt translate to you have to do this fight this very specific way with this exact set up, or doesnt require the use this one optimal rotation as fast as you can. This and please no more dance dance revolution. These kind of things are challenging but not in the direction Id prefer. Basaically they require everyone to memorize complex combinations of skills while simultaneously learning a complex choreographed set of dance steps. This seems to be the trend and Im a bit sick of it. I dont want rotations, I want situations and more strategic thought. I dont want enemes that you kill with every swing of your sword, I want "trash" mobs to beat your ass into the ground and arent easily disposed of. Ideal group composition is okay to a degree, but I want the freedom to use different strats per group make up (dual tanking, heavy CC, kiting, etc.). And there needs to be room for emergent gameplay. I dont ever want to see anything remotely similar to Primal Fights in FFXIV! EVER! The only things those type of fights test is your ability to perfectly memorize 200 prefectly perfomed and dance steps in a row and your ability to flawlessly execute a 15 combo skill rotation while doing said dance steps. Ill admit its challenging in its own way, but I didnt find it fun. Id prefer slower more tactical combat. Even if that means its closer to "tank and spank" (which is in my opinon an overly obused phrase). Just thought Id add this though with all the talk of challenge.
Nanoushka said: If you don't use instancing or lock outs and keep it ffa, you automatically slow player consumption of content down. In that sense EQ had a solution to a problem that didn't even exist at the time :D. I wonder how that would work out these days, esp if it'd be combined with slow leveling and therefore spreading people out anyway.
It Wouldn't solve anything at all honestly, the playerbase is infinitely more intellgent when it comes to raiding than when EQ first came out, and the most dominant guilds will just make sure it stays perma camped and kill it within minutes of it spawning. So it will only stop every other guild form progressing not the dominant guild making sure the lesser ones stay less dominant.
Amsai said:...please no more dance dance revolution.
Cracked me up! Yeah, this is precisely why I quit WoW after WotLK. The dancing you had to do in Naxramus... Jump on this block, jump on that block... Ooops, you missed. Instant Death. We weren't even fighting while we were jumping around. Any person from 1995 that watched us playing that game would have been like "What the..."
EDIT: Even now in 2016, I am saying "What the..."
Im going to trust Kilsin on this one. A guild lock out timer on a boss does seem to be a logical way to do it and VR does seem to be as concerned as we are about guild camp sites, so fingers crossed that open world raids will work for everyone and not just the largest guilds. Everyone has paid for the content, so everything should be done to allow everyone the chance at competing in all aspects of the game.
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm burnt out with the sense of entitlement that has permeated all aspects of life - including gaming. The "I paid for it" argument nearly equals the "I don't have time for it" argument for two of the worst reasons to make changes to game design in my opinion.
Everyone pays for game access, but that access comes with no guaruntees. The access does not come with guidelines that a player will accomplish everything or will have the ability to experience everything - that is on the player his/herself.
And, it goes hand in hand with the time argument. If you don't have as much time, you shouldn't be able to experience all content at the same pace. It's player expectations that need to change. Time may not always equate to skill, but it does equate to investment. And if more time invested doesn't equal more rewards, then everyone will be max level, with the best gear, bored and will be complaining about a lack of content.
Dullahan has made several posts in different threads to help avoid monopolization of content at max level without the need to take the easy way out with instances. And I also believe that in addition to his suggestions, alot will depend on the focus on the group game, and making the leveling curve be steep enough to stagger who is at max level each expansion. And there needs to be enough group content to make the leveling experience meaningful without feeling too much like a chore or tedious.
Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
JDNight said:Amsai said:...please no more dance dance revolution.
Cracked me up! Yeah, this is precisely why I quit WoW after WotLK. The dancing you had to do in Naxramus... Jump on this block, jump on that block... Ooops, you missed. Instant Death. We weren't even fighting while we were jumping around. Any person from 1995 that watched us playing that game would have been like "What the..."
EDIT: Even now in 2016, I am saying "What the..."
yeah Rift had that....don't jump in the green goo...don't stand in the red poo...jump forward jump back and do the Hokey Pokey. Ridiculous.
Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
And guilds that sit on content for months on end...without budging..effectively blocking that content from the rest of the server?? Are they to be bowed down to ..? In the end we ALL pay the same money to play...that's the bottom line. Blocked content is content that I have literally paid for..by buying that expansion or the game....so are these game content blockers better than the rest of us? I agree with lock out timers...nothing else but I don't agree with encouraging elitism and or rewarding for same. There should be at least the opportunity to access for smaller guilds that would like to try their hand. Specifically what I am remembering is the epic weapon quests. Parts of those quests required raids...that either we couldn't manage an invite to...or we were just out of luck til that next expansion reared its head...sometimes that was a year of waiting.. so that can be offputting...hanging around waiting for some lordly guild to get off that spawn so the rest of us lowly beings can have a whack at it.
Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
Kilsin. It is nice to see someone from VR hop on this thread. But, what you are saying is a bit alarming. I will speak for myself, but in no way has anything I said in this thread leaned toward thinking VR owes me something for being a paying customer. Also, I have never said that I want things handed to me. I want gear when I earn it. I want epic stuff from killing bosses or doing hard-ass quests with my friends. what I don't want, is to fight the biggest guild on the server for a kill. That is not what raiding should be about. Raiding should be guild against raid boss.
What many of us are trying to say is that we want super hard content. But, we don't want a massive guild that camps mobs to cut us out of that content. I mean you, or your team no disrespect, but can you tell me why a PVE game should have me fighting with another guild for content? Does that not sound a bit like PVP? I just think that you may be making a mistake. In fact, your comments really make me think that you are trying to make EQ all over again. Again, I may not be a Dev, but I can tell you that you guys are really gambling.
Consider this. Why not make content that is actually a challenge because you guys designed it to be that way. How about not making the challenging content by having to schedule raid times with another guild. That is insane and old mentality. Again, I don't want gear handed to me. I want epic fights with 300+ wipes. But, I don't wanna fight a guild with 200+ members to get to it. That is not PVE man. I want to play with sklilled players, in a smaller guild that is not camping mobs for 12 hours straight. I want to schedule a raid time, then go raid. But again, your post makes it sound like some people want stuff handed to them. In my case, this is not what I am asking for.
Please reconsider your stances on things. If you decide to make a game where only the no-lifers can do hard content, then this is not a game I want to play. But, if you will at least allow people who cannot dedicate their lives to the game to at least try, then that would be rad. Again, I don't expect to be able to kill a raid boss right away, but I want to take a shot at it. And, I don't want to be in a guild of 300 people poop socking to have to do it. Basically, I play in an amazing guild that has been downing the hardest content in mmo's for years. I want to continue that trend. But, we do it on a schedule. We have set raid times and we raid. We don't need to schedule with other guilds or camp mobs.
Anyhow, I hope I am making myself clear. I want nothing for free. But, I think if you do try and make EQ or VG again its not gonna work. Please think about it.
P.S. I decided to edit my post Kilsin. It was late at night and I went a bit on a rant about finances and what not. I feel that was wrong. But, my rants are not without reason.
Basically, I want this game so succeed. I want this game to be freaking epic. But, I just am super passionate about end game raiding too. I want to experience all that Pantheo has to offer, but I don't want to ahve to be in a guild of 300+ members camping mobs to do it. Again, my past posts should tell it all. I am all for instancing to prevent this. I am a WoW-style raid fan. I don't hide that. But, I would love to see what VR can do with raiding as well.
Anyhow, I am sorry again if I did not make sense last night. Basically, I don't feel I am owed anything. I want to earn my stuff. But, I want to do it in my guild. I don't want to coordinate raid times with other guilds. Even if you put a lockout timre on a boss, and it respawns instantly, and the guild prior kills it in one pull, that is just as bad as camping imo. I want epic battles that wiupe me for 300+ wipes. I want to earn my gear by being the best. But, I don't think being the best comes from being able to zerg or camp mobs due to numbers, being the best comes from skill and coordination. And, if VR can make raids require that, then I would be happy.
And finally, working out raid schedules with another guild is also something I am against. I should not have to coordinate my raid times with people who may be in different tims zones or less skill. I would hope that VR thinks about this. Please let us coordinate with our guilds. Again, having to worry about other guilds times and stuff is almost like PVP imo.
Master of your class, yes.
Knowledge of encounter/mob, yes.
Group synergy, yes.
Slower and more tactical gameplay, yes.
50/50 gear to skill ratio, yes.
Attunements and flagging, yes.
Time investment, yes (dont expect to log in for 1 hour 3 times a week and be downing raid bosses)
Camping Named, yes (though I dont really want to see 12/24/72 hr respawns, but 1-6 hours sounds okay).
First Action claims mob, yes.
Rare drop rates, yes (better the gear worse the drop rate).
Dungeons and not 15 min Rungeons (TM), yes.
Freedom of tactics and not forced to do combat this one way, yes.
Preparation, yes.
Triggered spawns, yes.
Lockouts (or similar system), yes.
Mixed approach to type and itemization and spread of endgame encounters, yes
Trivializing Content (Zerging, Zombieing, Outside help), hell no.
Monopolizing content, nope.
These are the things I want to see and dont want to see at endgame. I dont have a problem with time being a factor, but crazy long hours of camping are just obnoxious. Thats a bit too much down time if you ask me. And I definitely think people that spend more time in the game should be rewarded appropriately for that time and dedication. But there should be things that those with not as much time or skill can achieve as well (even if its not as badass). And a mixed approach to endgame could help (Not only Raid or die, comparable items from different named, and spreading the population due to both of these and there by keeping contested content from being impossible to do). Contested content is fine, but complete subjigation of the server by a small fraction of the server is not acceptable for a PvE environemnt (But I do feel differently about it on a PvP server). Because contested content can truly be fun. But everything in moderation. Go do other things! But give me other cool things that Id actually want to do. As well as that big bad guild. Give them a reason to go do other things too. Raiding doesnt have to be the be all end all of endgame. Spread that elite loot and prestige of the challenge around to other facets like crafting, faction quests, epic quests, small group dungeon encounters, mid group dungeon encounters. There are resonable ways to reduce the butthurt and give plenty of people plenty of epic content at all levels (1-50) spread all over the game world in various content types. And if VR can do this then a lot of this will be non-issues. However, if there is like 1 or 2 raids at level cap and they are the be all end all of challenge and gear. And everything below them are garbage in terms of high end loot and challenge........... then good luck with how that turns out. But I think VR can get it right. You dont have to block people from content or be blocked out of it if there is enough content to go around and the endgame population isnt to concentrated too any one place or thing.
I have read much of the posts on both this thread and the 'contention' on. Ultimately the worry, as expressed by many, is about all the top-end raid targets being locked up for a significant time by either a single top guild, or a cabal of the top 5 Guilds, say. They would not be doing it for exp, and so must be doing it:
1. To get the 'best' gear for all Guildies/alts
2. To stop others from progressing/getting this gear.
I feel that there are many ways to retain non-instanced raiding and also make the above all but impossible. Examples follow:
A. Slow progression
This is an interim step, but slower levelling means more chance for players to build relationships - even Guild to Guild ones, such that there will be less likelihood of a single 'uber' guild able to dominate against all comers. Horizontal progression is a massive component of this (whether content driven or 'AA' type). The nett effect is retard progresss towards the 'end game'. There will always be a core who 'rush to the end', but my point here is to reduce this core to a tiny minority, not a 'default' for the majority of players. (Think WoW where everyone just steams towards the end-game, not just the tiny group of dedicated hard-core levellers).
B. Self-imposed Horizontal progression
Since the very people who would be the ones to rush content are those that will push for any challenge, the aim is to incorporate some self-imposed optional 'hard-mode'. This should be avbailable to all, but would be chosen by very few. An example of this might be :
Levelling Slider : Starting at level 6 you can opt to send 25% exp towards another goal. At level 11 you can increase this to 30% and at level 21 up to 40%. This exp is siphoned off the exp gained as you level and would provide a tangible, but not overpowered, bonus. It would, perhaps, give access to some AA's, a small bonus to points to be allocated during level progression, access towards unlocking 'titles' or other locked bonus material. For further impact, you might allow a mini-progeny option at level 20+ whereby if the character is 'reset to level 1' ('Erik I' becomes 'Erik II', say) they keep faction/gear etc, but start again at level 1 .... but can add +5% to max exp cap that can be siphoned off at each stage.
C. Earlier Raid targets
Start dungeon mini-bosses from level 20+. Have these as 'dungeon bosses' etc. There should be enough of them for 2-5 bosses at each band of levels. Thus a set for level 20-25, 30-35, 40-45 and then 'end-game' 50-60. The earlier raid bosses give others a taste for the methods and organisation of raiding, without having to wait until end-game to learn these skils.
D. More Raid Targets
Preferably have a larger number of bosses, including 'pools' of bosses with rotations for some places. The increased number makes it much less likely that any one or two guilds will be able to lock down all content.
E. Access/key to targets integrated with other skills
As suggested in another thread, it could be made that access to higher tier bosses may need you to pass through a lower boss area (would want another Guild to pull that first) before being able to get to the entrance of the next tiered boss. Access to this may need work from crafters, say. Perhaps a bridge needs to be contructed over a chasm in order to access the gate. This may need lots of low level crafters, or fewer higher level ones. In either case, they would need to be protected from any wanderers or a respawn of the lower tier boss. The 'uber' Guild would not want to fight the lower tier boss since it may casuse them to be locked out (see option G below) from the higher tier boss. In this way they need another raiding guild on good terms with them.
F. No 'absolute' best item
To avoid bottle necks :
1. Quests that need raid-encounters should only need either
(a) more generic loot, (eg 'dragon scale' rather than 'Vox's scale')
(b) interaction with the lair or corpse. (E.g. 'wash sword in dragon's blood)
2. Specific Items dropped from Raid-Bosses should have fewer 'singular' items. This is avoid the 'best tank item is from boss X' causing a guild to perma-cap it. The suggested method would be to have 3 different items of comparable strength that (rarely) drop from any of three bosses. These three drops would be different and would either cause the Guild to try camping all three bosses (this reducing locked time by 3) or to only camp one, leaving the other two bosses open.
3. Much of the loot table should be of crafting consumables/mats (eg gemstones, dragon bone, tooth, scale, blood etc). While a tier-1 boss may drop 9 low-end and 4 high-end pieces, a tier-2 boss may drop 12 low-end and 5 high-end. Tier-3 may drop 15 low-end and 6 high-end etc. This kind of system applied to bosses starting at lower level raid bosses (30-35, 40-45 etc) would mean guilds could get access to these high-end materials, just in smaller numbers.... even if the top guilds have locked top-tier content up.
G. Lockout mechanism
In another thread, I have already suggested mechaincs for this type of content denial. In essence, if a player kills a boss they are batherd in a long-lasting debuff. It's strength is determined by the Raid-Boss strength to a degree, and can overlap other bosses. Eg Kill Vox (Dragon) and you may be exposed to 'Dragon blood debuff'. It takes 3 weeks for tis effects to reduce to zero. Until then, exposure to a dragon will cause this debuff to have one of many possible effects (dependent on design). Eg Lower RR vs Dragons, increased aggro from dragons (can smell the blood on you) etc.
Unless the Guilds have a mile deep bench in alts, it is unlikely they will be able to avoid this kind of 'lockout'.
These kind of mechanics can be used to keep it 'competative' but at the same time make it unlikely that the whole server can be locked out. I would imagine a well though out system that incorporates something along these lines will be able to have a self-regulated system that ensure no Guild is 'super dominant' at teh expense of all other ... not without 'chinese farmer' levels of industry!.
-Evoras
PS : These are suggestions for the 'kind' of mechanics that might work, not fully-fleshed 'solutions' by any means!
CanadinaXegony said:Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
And guilds that sit on content for months on end...without budging..effectively blocking that content from the rest of the server?? Are they to be bowed down to ..? In the end we ALL pay the same money to play...that's the bottom line. Blocked content is content that I have literally paid for..by buying that expansion or the game....so are these game content blockers better than the rest of us? I agree with lock out timers...nothing else but I don't agree with encouraging elitism and or rewarding for same. There should be at least the opportunity to access for smaller guilds that would like to try their hand. Specifically what I am remembering is the epic weapon quests. Parts of those quests required raids...that either we couldn't manage an invite to...or we were just out of luck til that next expansion reared its head...sometimes that was a year of waiting.. so that can be offputting...hanging around waiting for some lordly guild to get off that spawn so the rest of us lowly beings can have a whack at it.
That is not really the same issue as entitlement, though, that is an issue about camping raid mobs and I have outlined several times my personal opinions on that issue even as a guild/raid leader and given clear examples on how to mitigate it in this thread among others. I agree with you on preventing full guild control over all or certain raid mobs and them being allowed to stop others from having fun and attempting raids.
One of them was on the first page of this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2943/my-only-raid-concern/view/post_id/43444
"We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.
Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems."
I am all for equality, meaning no one is entitled to anything, they all have to work for it but equality isn't always fair, it just means you all have equal chances at everything in-game if you pay a monthly subscription.
I really like using this image to explain what I mean as I think it does a good job of putting it in simple terms and although it doesn't exactly fit this situation, it can be molded to at least explain the equality part:
Think of the fence as a subscription to the game, that is our barrier to entry, once you pay it you remove the barrier and then you all have equal access to everything that we have created in the game world, the boxes are your own hurdles - time/skill/guild/friends/social interaction/motivation/determination as it is up to everyone to put in the time and effort to obtain items and gear, some players will have more time than others, some will be more skilled than others, some won't be bothered or even try as they enjoy other aspects of the game, some will demand things out of their reach be handed to them but in the end, you will all have ample opportunity to reach your goals, acquire gear and items, some of it will require skill, some of it time and some will rely on others (groups/guilds) to get special items but that is for every player to work towards in their own time, not everyone will get those things but everyone has equal opportunity to try, if smaller guilds can't kill a certain raid boss due to lack of numbers, then they will have to recruit more like-minded players, or work with another guild, or ask for help or start PUGs to attract more people to attempt it, they will still have equal opportunity to try as will everyone in-game.
I hope that makes more sense and please don't think this is directed at you Cana, I just wanted to clear my post up a bit for those who may not fully understand what I meant.
Also, remember we are talking about a very small portion of the game here...the majority of the game will be fun and challenging but most importantly enjoyable for everyone, only some items or places will require extra skillsets/time/challenge to test those that want to be pushed to their limits in with other like-minded people, it doesn't mean they will all succeed though ;)
Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
Thank You ! :)
I was 100% against instancing raids until I began playing on Phinigel a few months back. Coming from Project 1999, I now believe instancing the top end raids only is definitely the way to go.
Can still definitely have open world bosses that guilds can compete over and make them integral to epic quests or something like that, but there should definitely be content that guilds can schedule at a set time each each week. Refusing to add this type of content is just removing a social means from a game that is touting itself as bringing back the social aspect to the modern mmo.
Sniggz said:I was 100% against instancing raids until I began playing on Phinigel a few months back. Coming from Project 1999, I now believe instancing the top end raids only is definitely the way to go.
Can still definitely have open world bosses that guilds can compete over and make them integral to epic quests or something like that, but there should definitely be content that guilds can schedule at a set time each each week. Refusing to add this type of content is just removing a social means from a game that is touting itself as bringing back the social aspect to the modern mmo.
"Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems."
Kilsin said:CanadinaXegony said:Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
And guilds that sit on content for months on end...without budging..effectively blocking that content from the rest of the server?? Are they to be bowed down to ..? In the end we ALL pay the same money to play...that's the bottom line. Blocked content is content that I have literally paid for..by buying that expansion or the game....so are these game content blockers better than the rest of us? I agree with lock out timers...nothing else but I don't agree with encouraging elitism and or rewarding for same. There should be at least the opportunity to access for smaller guilds that would like to try their hand. Specifically what I am remembering is the epic weapon quests. Parts of those quests required raids...that either we couldn't manage an invite to...or we were just out of luck til that next expansion reared its head...sometimes that was a year of waiting.. so that can be offputting...hanging around waiting for some lordly guild to get off that spawn so the rest of us lowly beings can have a whack at it.
That is not really the same issue as entitlement, though, that is an issue about camping raid mobs and I have outlined several times my personal opinions on that issue even as a guild/raid leader and given clear examples on how to mitigate it in this thread among others. I agree with you on preventing full guild control over all or certain raid mobs and them being allowed to stop others from having fun and attempting raids.
One of them was on the first page of this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2943/my-only-raid-concern/view/post_id/43444
"We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems."
I am all for equality, meaning no one is entitled to anything, they all have to work for it but equality isn't always fair, it just means you all have equal chances at everything in-game if you pay a monthly subscription.
I really like using this image to explain what I mean as I think it does a good job of putting it in simple terms and although it doesn't exactly fit this situation, it can be molded to at least explain the equality part:Think of the fence as a subscription to the game, that is our barrier to entry, once you pay it you remove the barrier and then you all have equal access to everything that we have created in the game world, the boxes are your own hurdles - time/skill/guild/friends/social interaction/motivation/determination as it is up to everyone to put in the time and effort to obtain items and gear, some players will have more time than others, some will be more skilled than others, some won't be bothered or even try as they enjoy other aspects of the game, some will demand things out of their reach be handed to them but in the end, you will all have ample opportunity to reach your goals, acquire gear and items, some of it will require skill, some of it time and some will rely on others (groups/guilds) to get special items but that is for every player to work towards in their own time, not everyone will get those things but everyone has equal opportunity to try, if smaller guilds can't kill a certain raid boss due to lack of numbers, then they will have to recruit more like-minded players, or work with another guild, or ask for help or start PUGs to attract more people to attempt it, they will still have equal opportunity to try as will everyone in-game.
I hope that makes more sense and please don't think this is directed at you Cana, I just wanted to clear my post up a bit for those who may not fully understand what I meant.
Also, remember we are talking about a very small portion of the game here...the majority of the game will be fun and challenging but most importantly enjoyable for everyone, only some items or places will require extra skillsets/time/challenge to test those that want to be pushed to their limits in with other like-minded people, it doesn't mean they will all succeed though ;)
Okay definitely not looking for "entitlement" here as my post indicated. Just fair access for the rest of the server to try their hand...all I am asking for. :)
If we fail so be it...at least we have the opportunity to try and perhaps make a better plan of attack or ally with other small guilds...to give it a shot again. :) To be honest the episode I was speaking about...I had been level 60 for a year...and after that year, could still not complete my epic weapon quest, due to being blocked by a couple of large guilds (Inner Circle and one other can't remember name) and quit EQ for several years. This is what I am hoping won't happen with Pantheon. :) Thanks for your response Kilsin :)
Cana
I understand that raiding is not the be all and end all of endgame - but we have to acknowledge that MMO gamers in this day and age are heavily exposed to raiding and will have a desire to experience it on some level.
The smaller / casual guilds will by their very nature be slower to access said content (they will have to ensure that thier members are properly geared / keyed / prepared / motivated to tackle a raid boss. These guilds will (probably) also take longer to down a boss - either due to more wipes / slower progression due to lack of numbers etc.
These more casual guilds will have to still work hard at their goal - gear up their members / get resists / co-ordinate with sister guilds etc. They are not asking for easier mechanics or the like - just for an opportunity to access the content without being locked out by other players / guilds.
I remember a lot of drama in (many) EQ server forums re. guilds blocking content, leading to elitism and the like. Even then that this was something that did not sit well with me and I felt that I was at the mercy of other players (who were often seen to be selfish etc - but to be fair a large portion of them were probably just highly competitive). For me, it created an 'us vs them' mentality and brought about division / drama more than anything else - I think this is nowadays referred to as me being 'butthurt' =].
I did not play VG for long, so never experienced the Raid lockouts in person - and as a theory it sounds good, but I do have some concerns about the # of guilds that may want in on the rotation, and how a smaller casual / semi-hardcore guild may have to shift their raid times / nights for different bosses [which is difficult for many people nowadays]. Who knows, this may work well in game - will have to wait and see.
I feel that the focus is being (wrongly) diverted by discussions of entitlement, and much of the 'distaste' for the newer MMO player / playstely is being injected into some of the comments - we just need to remember that we are like minded people (in philosophy atleast if not in casual/hard-core based playstyles) who are voicing our ideas, thoughts & desires for contructive discussion.
Finally, kudos to some great discussions on this topic - have read through all the comments and am thouroughly enjoying the to and fro of the conversation and different ideas being put forward.
P.S. Kilsin - the middle kid in the first pic is wearing a skirt, and then switches to pants for the 2nd and 3rd pics [I don't know why I noticed this]. And that field placement... that needs to be addressed asap!