Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

My Only Raid Concern

    • 74 posts
    March 22, 2016 9:36 AM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    I purposed in my other thread to add in farmable items off of mobs in the area of the spawn that guilds would have to collect in order to spawn a summoned version. This way people have to put in an effort to get those kills or they have to race with everyone else. It still keeps that competitive scene alive without hurting guilds that don't want it. 

    Either way will honestly work. I just think there should be more effort involved rather than just waiting for others to clear out.

    Agreed. This is why I earlier said the item for open world spawn.

    The item doesn't have to spawn the mob if you want the thing in the world for people to see. It only needs to enable the encounter with an euipment check or item consumption. The best way is to have the mob able to kill anyone nearby but the item enables damage to be done to it and then the item is consumed upon kill. Get another for the next week; this also prevents kill stealing after a raid has used the item to activate and then wipes.

    Sounds like: open world mob spawns, item based activation with consumption on kill, normal raid lockout upon kill, immediate reactivation upon kill for others.

    This combines the challenge to get the activation item and to kill the mob with schedule accessibility and encounter exposure for the most people (non-lock down).

    It doesn't present the most challenging scenario of completely contested, completely random pops. So throw one of those in for the people that want it - I've been there and done that, time to evolve.

     

    • 1434 posts
    March 22, 2016 11:23 AM PDT

    Originally in EQ, raiding was not the norm. It was something everyone hoped to do, most did at some point, yet few did often (until much later).

    If items are supposed to be "memorable, deserved, cherished and desired", then raid gear, in particular, should be highly prized. By making raiding readily accessible to anyone who plays, it will become the standard by which everything is judged. When everyone can raid, its no longer special, and the rewards become mundane. And when that happens, where does that leave everything else in a game designed primarily for group play?

    In a bad place, I'd say.

    • 74 posts
    March 22, 2016 11:42 AM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    Originally in EQ, raiding was not the norm. It was something everyone hoped to do, most did at some point, yet few did often (until much later).

    If items are supposed to be "memorable, deserved, cherished and desired", then raid gear, in particular, should be highly prized. By making raiding readily accessible to anyone who plays, it will become the standard by which everything is judged. When everyone can raid, its no longer special, and the rewards become mundane. And when that happens, where does that leave everything else in a game designed primarily for group play?

    In a bad place, I'd say.

    Everyone should be able to raid. Period.

    Acomplishing raids consistently is the difficult part for most people and hence, items remain unconcentrated per player.  Raiding accomplishment comes from not only the kills but from concentrating raid items on one toon. I'll never forget when I finished a raid armor set...even if it was with a stupid purple/yellow bag hat in EQ2.  Most people will never be able to do this.

    Proper raid difficulty is another measure of widespread success or not.

    • 1281 posts
    March 22, 2016 11:43 AM PDT

    I respect what the OP is trying to say here but I think the argument carries little weight.

    As long as the game has either, 1) mechanics to..., or 2) rules that prevent kill stealing, there's absolutely nothing stopping "small guilds" from taking on raid mobs if they are gathered, ready, and able to fight the raid mob.

    Now if you want to have a discussion about how some high level raid guilds work together to let eachother know when a mob will spawn and that allows them to always be ready, then OK we can do that. Maybe randomize the spawn time for raid mobs? This would mean anyone ready and willing has a chance becuase the exact spawn time is not known.

    If you also want to have the discussion about raid targets for say 18 or 24 people vs raid targets for 72, again that's a discussion worth having. But unless they use instancing, those 18/24 man raid targets are going to be killed by even large guilds unless the loot is not worth the effort for what they could be spending time on.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at March 22, 2016 11:44 AM PDT
    • 556 posts
    March 22, 2016 12:20 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    As long as the game has either, 1) mechanics to..., or 2) rules that prevent kill stealing, there's absolutely nothing stopping "small guilds" from taking on raid mobs if they are gathered, ready, and able to fight the raid mob.

     

    Because all those rule breakers tend to abide by the rules eh? :D

    Even with rules in place people will not care about them. The only thing that could be put in place to prevent KSing is a tagging system and all taht means is whoever has better ping will secure the target for their guild. So unless the raid mobs are spawning every 4-6 hours then the competitive scene will grow toxic very fast. Better to find a solid way to prevent it that works for all involved and there are some ways to do it. 

    • 116 posts
    March 22, 2016 12:23 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Competition for spawns is a social component of the game.  

    If by social component you mean raging and trolling in /shout and on the forums, then sure.

    The VG compromise is interesting, but it does make me wonder, if the mob is just going to be up all the time and guilds are locked out of killing them for 7 days, then I have to ask, how is that any different from instancing?  Just seems like a great way of generating massive zone lag, for the sake of making the game world appear more "alive".  But perhaps I am missing a key piece of information.  I guess the distinction is that it isn't being billed as "contested" content, but just non-instanced.  I guess I will wait for alpha before I really pass judgement.  

    • 308 posts
    March 22, 2016 12:30 PM PDT

    Like many of you, i have been in top guilds raiding guilds in many games.  I started raiding hardcore in Kunark and stopped a month or so ago after my guild beat the broken mirror.  While i enjoyed the race for raid mobs in both top guilds and middle guilds, having experienced raid instancing, i much prefer it and think it's the better path now.  The race was great back in the day but going back and raiding on Ragefire affirmed that instancing is better for me and i am not a casual player - i will race if that's how Brad and Co. decide to go but hope they don't because i fit into the group that no longer wants to get the late night bat phone calls - to gank sleeper's tomb because the top guild or the euro guild weren't paying attention but wants to experience content.  The competition for serverwide and server placement is still there.  


    This post was edited by Reht at March 22, 2016 12:33 PM PDT
    • 801 posts
    March 22, 2016 12:48 PM PDT

    Reht said:

    Like many of you, i have been in top guilds raiding guilds in many games.  I started raiding hardcore in Kunark and stopped a month or so ago after my guild beat the broken mirror.  While i enjoyed the race for raid mobs in both top guilds and middle guilds, having experienced raid instancing, i much prefer it and think it's the better path now.  The race was great back in the day but going back and raiding on Ragefire affirmed that instancing is better for me and i am not a casual player - i will race if that's how Brad and Co. decide to go but hope they don't because i fit into the group that no longer wants to get the late night bat phone calls - to gank sleeper's tomb because the top guild or the euro guild weren't paying attention but wants to experience content.  The competition for serverwide and server placement is still there.  

     

    Race was fun, but it also brought on a ton of griefing. I think it was pretty sad the way some handled it. One time i remember fighting one of the named on velious that turtle? all of a sudden as we where prepping for it a top end guild comes rushing in and kills it on the spot. I said guys wtf you doing? we where trying to kill this. They took the top end piece and sold it for over 100k to a guild member, and they gave us the left overs. said sorry and walked on.

    We timed it perfectly but wasnt ready. They just griefed the crap out of us, we had respect for them up to that. An officer of that guild did it to us.

    I was shocked at the same time, i did not apply to them because i felt it was a mean way to treat others. It was our first kill, we had family and friends joined for the fight. A very small guild but was able to handle it. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4061

    It was a very valued item in velious for those that do know it. means nothing today but these things do matter to some people.

    Cock blocking guilds the term used all the time was done by many and this is why instances became so important to guilds and groups. It avoided many things.

    I have to agree instanced, and some open world named seemed to be the best approach to greifing.

     

     

    Also for those that remember POP was pretty bad for blocking others to get to the raids on time. You had to camp out for hours to see if it spawned. Guild rushes in and wipes anyone standing there preping for it. The only thing that helped was having the top end guilds go on rotation and anyone else smaller got left out.

    Serious business when you grief others.

    and many of those top end guilds had GM's in them, and allowed it. Didnt bother with the griefing back then and shrugged it off and said Your not ready.

     


    This post was edited by Crazzie at March 22, 2016 12:52 PM PDT
    • 308 posts
    March 22, 2016 12:51 PM PDT

    Crazzie said:

    Race was fun, but it also brought on a ton of griefing. I think it was pretty sad the way some handled it. One time i remember fighting one of the named on velious that turtle? all of a sudden as we where prepping for it a top end guild comes rushing in and kills it on the spot. I said guys wtf you doing? we where trying to kill this. They took the top end piece and sold it for over 100k to a guild member, and they gave us the left overs. said sorry and walked on.

    We timed it perfectly but wasnt ready. They just griefed the crap out of us, we had respect for them up to that. An officer of that guild did it to us.

    I was shocked at the same time, i did not apply to them because i felt it was a mean way to treat others. It was our first kill, we had family and friends joined for the fight. A very small guild but was able to handle it. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4061

    It was a very valued item in velious for those that do know it. means nothing today but these things do matter to some people.

    Cock blocking guilds the term used all the time was done by many and this is why instances became so important to guilds and groups. It avoided many things.

    I have to agree instanced, and some open world named seemed to be the best approach to greifing.

     

    Lodizal.  Hell, my guild CBed the number 2 guild on the server for months during PoP, we made sure they never got a Rallos Zek The Warlord Kill so we could farm the elemental planes until everyone was fully geared and of course waiting on plane of time to be finished and released.  I had friends in that guild and i didn't feel particular great about doing it, but we also wanted to make sure we had things to raid.  Then we did the same thing to keep them out of Plane of Time until it was instanced, i don't know how many times a ranger went and blew the cornaiv event for the week - that was a really high level of douchebaggery.  Life is great when you are at the top, not quite as good when you aren't.


    This post was edited by Reht at March 22, 2016 12:54 PM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    March 22, 2016 1:04 PM PDT

    Land said:

    Dullahan said:

    Originally in EQ, raiding was not the norm. It was something everyone hoped to do, most did at some point, yet few did often (until much later).

    If items are supposed to be "memorable, deserved, cherished and desired", then raid gear, in particular, should be highly prized. By making raiding readily accessible to anyone who plays, it will become the standard by which everything is judged. When everyone can raid, its no longer special, and the rewards become mundane. And when that happens, where does that leave everything else in a game designed primarily for group play?

    In a bad place, I'd say.

    Everyone should be able to raid. Period.

    Acomplishing raids consistently is the difficult part for most people and hence, items remain unconcentrated per player.  Raiding accomplishment comes from not only the kills but from concentrating raid items on one toon. I'll never forget when I finished a raid armor set...even if it was with a stupid purple/yellow bag hat in EQ2.  Most people will never be able to do this.

    Proper raid difficulty is another measure of widespread success or not.

     

    No, just no. Hard no. That is ridiculous. Does everyone get a Tesla Model S and supermodel wife with a house in each hemisphere? No. Some people do, but not everyone. 

    • 85 posts
    March 22, 2016 2:02 PM PDT

    The idea of a lockout timer on all open world bosses seems to me just another flavor of instancing. While I agree the progression locking by competing guilds is something that should be eliminated, I feel there should still remain some open competition raid targets.

    Ideally, any raid targets that are required for content progression should follow the VG model of a lockout timer. While, open world targets have healthy mix of lockout vs free for all. This allows the more dedicated raiding guilds to compete against each other with extra chances at raid tier loot, while more casual guilds are still able to access a portion of raid content.

    • 308 posts
    March 22, 2016 2:10 PM PDT

    How did VG handle people tagging an open world raid mob?  Did they get the lockout but had no chance at loot?

    • 22 posts
    March 22, 2016 2:32 PM PDT
    Personally I prefer instance raiding with timed lockouts.

    Nothing more frustrating than assembling a raid force in EQ and while trying to learn, here comes the zero force and just takes it away.

    No thanks
    • 288 posts
    March 22, 2016 3:12 PM PDT

    Instances and lockout timers won't be in Pantheon, they've already said that.  Since that's the case (and one of the major reasons I'm even backing this game) there is a simple method to stop guilds from monopolizing content, and P99 should have done it years ago, if only they weren't so attached to the "classic" code.  

     

    Make raid bosses untrackable, and make it impossible to visually check if they are spawned, without a raid force present.  This isn't very hard to implement, especially if it was done from the start.  If a mob can spawn sometime within the next 2 days deep in a dungeon, and there is no way of knowing that it's up without a raid force being present, then you have 2 options as a major guild, poopsock the area, and leave all of the rest of the mobs in the game to everyone else, or check it once or twice a day and hope its up.  This will give everyone a fair chance at content without instancing or lockout retardation.

    • 288 posts
    March 22, 2016 3:16 PM PDT

    Land said:

    Dullahan said:

    Originally in EQ, raiding was not the norm. It was something everyone hoped to do, most did at some point, yet few did often (until much later).

    If items are supposed to be "memorable, deserved, cherished and desired", then raid gear, in particular, should be highly prized. By making raiding readily accessible to anyone who plays, it will become the standard by which everything is judged. When everyone can raid, its no longer special, and the rewards become mundane. And when that happens, where does that leave everything else in a game designed primarily for group play?

    In a bad place, I'd say.

    Everyone should be able to raid. Period.

    Acomplishing raids consistently is the difficult part for most people and hence, items remain unconcentrated per player.  Raiding accomplishment comes from not only the kills but from concentrating raid items on one toon. I'll never forget when I finished a raid armor set...even if it was with a stupid purple/yellow bag hat in EQ2.  Most people will never be able to do this.

    Proper raid difficulty is another measure of widespread success or not.

     

    LOL, so I guess we should give everyone in the world a billion dollars, so everyone can be billionaires right?   Oh wait that's right, because if you give everyone a billion dollars, the only thing that happens is that having a billion dollars becomes irrelevant, it will no longer be exclusive, you'll just have a 25 million dollar chicken breast at KFC.

     

    The only thing you should have a "right" to do in an MMORPG is log in, after that, you're in their world.

    • 85 posts
    March 22, 2016 3:18 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.

    Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems.

    Rallyd said:

    Instances and lockout timers won't be in Pantheon, they've already said that.  Since that's the case (and one of the major reasons I'm even backing this game) there is a simple method to stop guilds from monopolizing content, and P99 should have done it years ago, if only they weren't so attached to the "classic" code.  

     

    Kilsin seems to contradict that assumption regarding lockout timers. Unless, I'm misunderstanding something here.

    • 9115 posts
    March 22, 2016 4:43 PM PDT

    Reht said:

    How did VG handle people tagging an open world raid mob?  Did they get the lockout but had no chance at loot?

    Whichever group/raid tagged the mob first, they would be locked to it and no outside forces/players could attack, once it was dead and that group/raid looted and moved on, either instantly or shortly after M(1-2 hrs) the mob would respawn and the next group/raid could go for it, sometimes there was competition to jump guilds but it was poor form and would be frowned upon but with no real loss to the guild who missed  out as it would either instantly respawn or within an hour, so they could just go and hit another raid mob on their list for that day/night and then come back to finish it off.

    • 9115 posts
    March 22, 2016 4:44 PM PDT

    Endalmir said:

    Kilsin said:

    We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.

    Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems.

    Rallyd said:

    Instances and lockout timers won't be in Pantheon, they've already said that.  Since that's the case (and one of the major reasons I'm even backing this game) there is a simple method to stop guilds from monopolizing content, and P99 should have done it years ago, if only they weren't so attached to the "classic" code.  

     

    Kilsin seems to contradict that assumption regarding lockout timers. Unless, I'm misunderstanding something here.

    Sorry if I made it sound official, I was just explaining how it worked in VG so everyone could get a better understanding of how the lockout timers worked, they are not as evil as some may think but we haven't decided how we will handle this yet, it will most likely be something we tweak in testing while under server load with guilds/group :)

    • 95 posts
    March 22, 2016 4:44 PM PDT

    Rallyd said:

    Instances and lockout timers won't be in Pantheon, they've already said that.  Since that's the case (and one of the major reasons I'm even backing this game) there is a simple method to stop guilds from monopolizing content, and P99 should have done it years ago, if only they weren't so attached to the "classic" code.  

     

    Not seen anything about lockout timers, but Instancing will exist. https://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#q34

    Pantheon will support instancing to a limited degree, using it primarily for storytelling in a linear fashion, perhaps at the end of an epic quest. The vast majority of content, however, will exist in non-instanced shared zones.

     

    • 12 posts
    March 22, 2016 4:59 PM PDT

    Why not just have some instanced to allow guilds to plan things and some are are open world. Those guilds that have the members and system to be able to Raid at any given time can do the open world bosses as "extra" and be happy.

    Guilds that not have that kind of members can do the instanced whenever they want.

    Eq2 did this with Avatars and i think it worked fine.

    • 85 posts
    March 22, 2016 5:01 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Sorry if I made it sound official, I was just explaining how it worked in VG so everyone could get a better understanding of how the lockout timers worked, they are not as evil as some may think but we haven't decided how we will handle this yet, it will most likely be something we tweak in testing while under server load with guilds/group :)

    Perfect! Thanks for the clarification, Kilsin. I hope, if such a system were implemented, we would see a mixture of lockout and free-for-all targets. Ideally, targets related to storyline or content progression would have lockout timers.

    • 74 posts
    March 22, 2016 5:35 PM PDT

    Krixus said:

    No, just no. Hard no. That is ridiculous. Does everyone get a Tesla Model S and supermodel wife with a house in each hemisphere? No. Some people do, but not everyone. 

    Rallyd said:

    LOL, so I guess we should give everyone in the world a billion dollars, so everyone can be billionaires right?   Oh wait that's right, because if you give everyone a billion dollars, the only thing that happens is that having a billion dollars becomes irrelevant, it will no longer be exclusive, you'll just have a 25 million dollar chicken breast at KFC.

     The only thing you should have a "right" to do in an MMORPG is log in, after that, you're in their world.


    Don't mistake everyone being able to raid (access) with everyone being able to complete content (success). We all pay the same money to play and should have equal footing. The time and effort are the variables not the money to buy access.

     

    • 1778 posts
    March 22, 2016 6:09 PM PDT

    Serious question: What do you guys think of the way Sky was set up in XI. I posted the basics and a link with a flow chart on the first page. I have heard some views from older members but was curious about how newer members felt, or people that are worried about open world content. I thought this might be appealing to some because while its not Instanced it does level they playing field and doesnt involve hard lockouts. But I always receive precious little feedback (dont know if this is because of lack of experience or what?). Im happy to answer any questions if anyone doesnt understand the concepts or has concerns about it. I know Dullahan and Raidan have gave me feedback in the past so I know where they stand, but Id really like to hear from others (open world, with lockouts, and instanced folks).

    • 1434 posts
    March 22, 2016 7:15 PM PDT

    Land said:

    Krixus said:

    No, just no. Hard no. That is ridiculous. Does everyone get a Tesla Model S and supermodel wife with a house in each hemisphere? No. Some people do, but not everyone. 

    Rallyd said:

    LOL, so I guess we should give everyone in the world a billion dollars, so everyone can be billionaires right?   Oh wait that's right, because if you give everyone a billion dollars, the only thing that happens is that having a billion dollars becomes irrelevant, it will no longer be exclusive, you'll just have a 25 million dollar chicken breast at KFC.

     The only thing you should have a "right" to do in an MMORPG is log in, after that, you're in their world.


    Don't mistake everyone being able to raid (access) with everyone being able to complete content (success). We all pay the same money to play and should have equal footing. The time and effort are the variables not the money to buy access.

     

    Everyone will be on equal footing, but like many things you pay money for, results may vary. When you go to the gym, you pay the same monthly fee, but it doesn't mean you are entitled to a 6-pack.

    • 22 posts
    March 22, 2016 8:53 PM PDT
    You aren't entitled to the 6 pack at the gym but you are allowed to use the equipment.