kefka said:Thanakos said:I don't envy any developer trying to create enough content to keep both Hardcore and casual players who want to raid happy. I just hope there is enough grouping content to keep me busy and able to do an occasional raid when I want a change of pace.
I think where you run into trouble is when a large portion of the player base is funneled into raiding to further improve their characters.
I juste hope they don't fall in the same trap as WoW did. Making a couple of dungeon with easy mode, normal, hard, very hard, very hard+1 and repeat the same pattern with their raid.
If I clear a raid on easy mode, why would I do it again? For better items? Who cares, I already saw all the content!
What you really need is design different raids for each difficulties. Instead of 1 raid with 5 difficulties level, make 5 different raids that are harder than the previous ones. I know this is way more work but you don't need to release all the raids on day 1, unless you make the first ones way too easy.
+1 !!!
If you guys played VG, which i am thinking most did. yall can remember the lock out timers on all the world bosses. there was never the issue that you guys are arguing here. Once a guild downs a boss, it respawns instantly or in 30 minutes, giving the other guilds who are waiting in line the opportunity to kill it as well, then everyone is on a lock out timer. So everyone is worried about something that isn't going to happen. We are getting a lot of people from recent games who are instilling fears which are totally understandable from their perspective, but they have never played VG, so they do not totally understand lock out timers and how they work very well in keeping a rotation going with elite guilds. I was in an elite guild believe me i know, we had every world boss on rotation and never not once had an issue with other guilds, the VG system was way before its time in downing world bosses. Really guys, there's no worries, stop beating your heads trying to figure out a way for everyone to get a piece of the pie. VR already has the answer , you guys just arent listening :) You will get an opportunity to see how this works ( for those who never played VG ) and will look back on these posts and wonder why you even wasted the time arguing about something so trivial. VR knows what they are doing, stop worrying :) *cheers
I believe from reading most of these posts, everyone is thinking that this is going to be just like EQ when it comes to raiding.. i believe that is where the misconception is happening.
Kelem said:If you guys played VG, which i am thinking most did. yall can remember the lock out timers on all the world bosses. there was never the issue that you guys are arguing here. Once a guild downs a boss, it respawns instantly or in 30 minutes, giving the other guilds who are waiting in line the opportunity to kill it as well, then everyone is on a lock out timer.
To be honest, this is also a concern of mine. I am all for something that prevents camping, but are raid bosses going to be so easy that guilds can wait in line? I mean, in my perfect vision, and this only my opinion, but I want a raid where you prgoress through it after wiping a ton of times on a boss. This is why I prefer instancing. This way, you can design an encounter that can test your team.
Bascially, in the sytem you are describing, I can see two problems. The first problem is that the raid target is so dreadfully easy that guilds can wait in line for their turn that week. And the second, which is just as bad, would be if the boss is super hard, and after each wipe, the next guild goes in there and tries. Basically, this brings me back to earlier points about having to schedule raiding with another guild. That does not build community imo, it builds frustration.
Anyhow, I am at least happy to see that there may be lockout timers. But, I still hope that they consider instances for the hardest content. This way, they can actually design content that is a challenge and not have the challenge being waiting in line. I am all for prepping, but waiting in line kind of takes the fun out of dying and running back. That does not really show risk, it just seems like a way to add frustration. And again, if the risk is to not die, that leads me to believe that a boss is killable in one attempt. But, I guess I will have to wait and see.
I have read it all.
Amasai mentioned a mechanic on page 1 of this thread that bears looking at because- as some mentioned liking the keying process to Vex thall (you had to get shards from monsters in each zone). Some called it a Time-Crazzie. But it also had the effect of offering hope to smaller groups/guilds if they got a shard they would hold onto it for "some day!" when they could try. They were not eager to get there right away, but to get there and when there, to have a chance to try.
This brings up two things in my mind: Hope and the elephant in the room with 3 letters written on its side.
What about folks who play "better than" the lead guild on a given server, but happened to start 3 years in. (will the Corporate offices pay for their trips and stays at the conventions?- AS DID OCCUR in RL to a lead guild- oops, gave away a letter on the elephant on that acronym)
The "better-thans" will get to the same target possibly in less time- will they have a chance to engage it?
The "better -thans" are Finnish with names like Kalevalatar and Suometar and are fine with themselves and their friends and do not see to join the lead guild- they can't speak the language. Will they hope to still have the chance to engage the monster and test themselves? I think they should. Will the corporation pay for their stays at conventions? why not? they did for the lead guild.
The lead guild locks down a raid monster, and with RNG it drops the same items 10 times in a row- I AM NOT LOOKING AT THE ELEPHANT-naturally this guild will bank those items, and maybe offer it to new joiners or....if there is a lack of bank space- will be forced to sell it in the market in game, for 10p where a new player can twink himself with raid gear.
Yes, that is what will happen.
The only way something else could happen is if the elephant comes over with RMT on the side because that guild will be tempted to sell those items for RL money, and why not. After all they are entitled, they put in the time, and effort, they are clearly the better guild, they are clearly the better players, unbeknownst to them they will be the precursors to Bitcoin evolving from the story of that guy in Asia who sued in RL someone because he did not get pixles from an RMT in game- and won in RL money. On the tail end of this the corporation will cater to them and pay for their stays and create the idea for F2P and cash shops- like the world of "Back to the Future 2"- that will take hold. This is not appealing to me. Value was placed on pixle-art, yet the art in "sigs" although valued was not valued as much, nor was hand drawn well done muse-like maps.
So the lead guild locks down the enounter every week and destroys all the loot. Fun. "What are we doing today Brain?", "Same thing we do every day, Pinkie"
Forgive me ahead of time for my broad analogies, but I am sensitive to this and I see a common thread.
I dont know why I am sensitive to this. Soon after a certain number of events took place giving pantheon traction and I heard "it will be F2P untill level 10" my imagination ran away with me and saw minor Borg-like capitulation. I dont expect a response but I understand market/business pressures.
I like the vanguard approach. The lead guild should and will have bragging rights via server firsts.
In PvE I see it as a test of the encounter, not a test to get to the encounter.
I remember a group of bards, they formed a guild of all bards. They asked the lead guilds if they could tag along on their raids, to provide bard-like support. So long as the bards could keep their identity, but still get raid loots. They were told, no. Essentially the lead guilds said "you are with us, or against us".
Larirawiel said:With such lockout timers i will propably never join a guild. Then i can help to kill a raid mob again and again because without a guild the guild lockout will be never placed on me.
Greetings
Well thats not true, if you hit the mob, you just got locked out. No the bosses were not that easy to be honest, but you had a chance to go at it if the other guild decided to just call it quits. some did, some didn't.
The idea that any one guild will farm everything assumes so much, and you know what they say about those who assume. Its even worse to think that they will not only lock everything down, but that they will go back to old raid content and lock that down too just to sell for real life money.
For a guild to monopolize and farm all content, especially raid content, that would mean raid targets would have to be predictable and easy to monitor. It would mean there would have to be no other guilds chomping at the bit waiting for those same targets to pop and it would mean there would never be a time where multiple mobs respawned at once like after patches or maintenance. Beyond that, it assumes clearing raid content will require very little time devoted, and that people would have the time to kill both the new content, and the old. These assumptions are really piling up here.
Lets just stop assuming Visionary Realms are completely inept shall we?
Dullahan said:The idea that any one guild will farm everything assumes so much
That is exactly my feeling but I keep wondering whether I am just naive haha :). I don't worry about it, I'd love to see what the devs come up with based on inspiration and vision, and not just from fear of people abusing this or that and how to keep that in check. I like to have faith in the devs and to feel they have faith in us as well.
CanadinaXegony said:Kilsin said:CanadinaXegony said:Kilsin said:Paying doesn't equal the right to every item or area in game by a long shot, people can hope and dream all they like but Pantheon will be a fun and challenging game with items and areas that some people just won't be able to access due to a lack of skill, gear, time whatever and there is nothing wrong with that, we are going back to core roots where not everything is handed to players and not everyone will get the cool items or gear, there are many cool things they will be able to get but the elite the top of the line items and gear pieces will be things you need to work hard for and rely on others to obtain for the most part, as we are a group based game.
Yes, casual players will be able to have a lot of fun and get most things if they work towards them, it may take a bit longer or even a lot longer but some things will be out of reach for your average gamer, a sub doesn't entitle anyone to everything in-game, it gives you to the opportunity or chance to get them, if you work towards it. I also dislike that entitled mentality as it is killing our gaming industry off.
And guilds that sit on content for months on end...without budging..effectively blocking that content from the rest of the server?? Are they to be bowed down to ..? In the end we ALL pay the same money to play...that's the bottom line. Blocked content is content that I have literally paid for..by buying that expansion or the game....so are these game content blockers better than the rest of us? I agree with lock out timers...nothing else but I don't agree with encouraging elitism and or rewarding for same. There should be at least the opportunity to access for smaller guilds that would like to try their hand. Specifically what I am remembering is the epic weapon quests. Parts of those quests required raids...that either we couldn't manage an invite to...or we were just out of luck til that next expansion reared its head...sometimes that was a year of waiting.. so that can be offputting...hanging around waiting for some lordly guild to get off that spawn so the rest of us lowly beings can have a whack at it.
That is not really the same issue as entitlement, though, that is an issue about camping raid mobs and I have outlined several times my personal opinions on that issue even as a guild/raid leader and given clear examples on how to mitigate it in this thread among others. I agree with you on preventing full guild control over all or certain raid mobs and them being allowed to stop others from having fun and attempting raids.
One of them was on the first page of this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2943/my-only-raid-concern/view/post_id/43444
"We have in fact discussed this is great detail many ideas were put forward to mitigate this including one that I mentioned about lockout timers, which were used in VG to allow huge open world raiding and still control over raiding or camping boss mobs, it worked very well.Basically, if your guild kills a mob, you are locked out from killing it again for 7 days, it respawns either instantly or within an hour and then the next guild can kill it, this way, multiple guilds can work out schedules to kill the boss without interfering with each others raiding schedule and it stops mobs from being over camped for their gear, removing the overcrowding issue between guilds, having multiple raiding mobs on these lockout timers allows guilds to communicate with each other and assign certain days/raids to kill specific mobs, once you get the first week or two down it becomes a normal raiding schedule with little to no interference from other guilds and solves many problems."
I am all for equality, meaning no one is entitled to anything, they all have to work for it but equality isn't always fair, it just means you all have equal chances at everything in-game if you pay a monthly subscription.
I really like using this image to explain what I mean as I think it does a good job of putting it in simple terms and although it doesn't exactly fit this situation, it can be molded to at least explain the equality part:Think of the fence as a subscription to the game, that is our barrier to entry, once you pay it you remove the barrier and then you all have equal access to everything that we have created in the game world, the boxes are your own hurdles - time/skill/guild/friends/social interaction/motivation/determination as it is up to everyone to put in the time and effort to obtain items and gear, some players will have more time than others, some will be more skilled than others, some won't be bothered or even try as they enjoy other aspects of the game, some will demand things out of their reach be handed to them but in the end, you will all have ample opportunity to reach your goals, acquire gear and items, some of it will require skill, some of it time and some will rely on others (groups/guilds) to get special items but that is for every player to work towards in their own time, not everyone will get those things but everyone has equal opportunity to try, if smaller guilds can't kill a certain raid boss due to lack of numbers, then they will have to recruit more like-minded players, or work with another guild, or ask for help or start PUGs to attract more people to attempt it, they will still have equal opportunity to try as will everyone in-game.
I hope that makes more sense and please don't think this is directed at you Cana, I just wanted to clear my post up a bit for those who may not fully understand what I meant.
Also, remember we are talking about a very small portion of the game here...the majority of the game will be fun and challenging but most importantly enjoyable for everyone, only some items or places will require extra skillsets/time/challenge to test those that want to be pushed to their limits in with other like-minded people, it doesn't mean they will all succeed though ;)
Okay definitely not looking for "entitlement" here as my post indicated. Just fair access for the rest of the server to try their hand...all I am asking for. :)
If we fail so be it...at least we have the opportunity to try and perhaps make a better plan of attack or ally with other small guilds...to give it a shot again. :) To be honest the episode I was speaking about...I had been level 60 for a year...and after that year, could still not complete my epic weapon quest, due to being blocked by a couple of large guilds (Inner Circle and one other can't remember name) and quit EQ for several years. This is what I am hoping won't happen with Pantheon. :) Thanks for your response Kilsin :)
Cana
Yeah, I agree with you completely, no one should be blocked from content because of someone else or another group/guild (unless it is PvP which is completely different and part of the strategy in most cases), there are many ways to handle this, the lockout is one I have seen work well but if there is something better suited for Pantheon then we will definitely investigate.
You're very welcome :)
zubi said:I understand that raiding is not the be all and end all of endgame - but we have to acknowledge that MMO gamers in this day and age are heavily exposed to raiding and will have a desire to experience it on some level.
The smaller / casual guilds will by their very nature be slower to access said content (they will have to ensure that thier members are properly geared / keyed / prepared / motivated to tackle a raid boss. These guilds will (probably) also take longer to down a boss - either due to more wipes / slower progression due to lack of numbers etc.
These more casual guilds will have to still work hard at their goal - gear up their members / get resists / co-ordinate with sister guilds etc. They are not asking for easier mechanics or the like - just for an opportunity to access the content without being locked out by other players / guilds.
I remember a lot of drama in (many) EQ server forums re. guilds blocking content, leading to elitism and the like. Even then that this was something that did not sit well with me and I felt that I was at the mercy of other players (who were often seen to be selfish etc - but to be fair a large portion of them were probably just highly competitive). For me, it created an 'us vs them' mentality and brought about division / drama more than anything else - I think this is nowadays referred to as me being 'butthurt' =].
I did not play VG for long, so never experienced the Raid lockouts in person - and as a theory it sounds good, but I do have some concerns about the # of guilds that may want in on the rotation, and how a smaller casual / semi-hardcore guild may have to shift their raid times / nights for different bosses [which is difficult for many people nowadays]. Who knows, this may work well in game - will have to wait and see.
I feel that the focus is being (wrongly) diverted by discussions of entitlement, and much of the 'distaste' for the newer MMO player / playstely is being injected into some of the comments - we just need to remember that we are like minded people (in philosophy atleast if not in casual/hard-core based playstyles) who are voicing our ideas, thoughts & desires for contructive discussion.
Finally, kudos to some great discussions on this topic - have read through all the comments and am thouroughly enjoying the to and fro of the conversation and different ideas being put forward.
P.S. Kilsin - the middle kid in the first pic is wearing a skirt, and then switches to pants for the 2nd and 3rd pics [I don't know why I noticed this]. And that field placement... that needs to be addressed asap!
The white stripe didn't show, I noticed it too and it bugs me! lol. The field placement is abysmal, and fun fact: I used to play representative baseball in Australia and even got picked for the under 18 Australian side to fly to the USA for a tournament but I wasn't able to make it due to family reasons at the time :)
Nanoushka said: I agree with you Anticlergy that waiting in line doesn't seem very appealing, for the reasons you mentioned.
The lockout timer applies to the character, not the guild, so it doesn't matter if you are in a guild, group or PUG, if you are part of the kill and are eligible for loot, you get the lockout timer, if you want to raid the same mob again, switch to an alt ;)
Anticlergy said:Kelem said:If you guys played VG, which i am thinking most did. yall can remember the lock out timers on all the world bosses. there was never the issue that you guys are arguing here. Once a guild downs a boss, it respawns instantly or in 30 minutes, giving the other guilds who are waiting in line the opportunity to kill it as well, then everyone is on a lock out timer.
To be honest, this is also a concern of mine. I am all for something that prevents camping, but are raid bosses going to be so easy that guilds can wait in line? I mean, in my perfect vision, and this only my opinion, but I want a raid where you prgoress through it after wiping a ton of times on a boss. This is why I prefer instancing. This way, you can design an encounter that can test your team.
Bascially, in the sytem you are describing, I can see two problems. The first problem is that the raid target is so dreadfully easy that guilds can wait in line for their turn that week. And the second, which is just as bad, would be if the boss is super hard, and after each wipe, the next guild goes in there and tries. Basically, this brings me back to earlier points about having to schedule raiding with another guild. That does not build community imo, it builds frustration.
Anyhow, I am at least happy to see that there may be lockout timers. But, I still hope that they consider instances for the hardest content. This way, they can actually design content that is a challenge and not have the challenge being waiting in line. I am all for prepping, but waiting in line kind of takes the fun out of dying and running back. That does not really show risk, it just seems like a way to add frustration. And again, if the risk is to not die, that leads me to believe that a boss is killable in one attempt. But, I guess I will have to wait and see.
Kelem was just describing the Overland raid mobs in VG, there was still many behind keyed or flagged content or down the bottom of a dungeon that required many hours of clearing trash and mini named to get too, some of which only a handful of guilds could reach, so the element of challenge will definitely still be there but I just meant everyone has equal opportunity to try, not all will succeed though :)
Nanoushka said: I agree with you Anticlergy that waiting in line doesn't seem very appealing, for the reasons you mentioned.
It was actually a great way to interact and apply your diplomacy skills speaking with rival guilds, negotiating raid times, breaking those times and fighting over who can ready their guild first and make an attempt on the mob but if it was unsuccessful you would be laughed at and the other guild would rush in after your wipe and finish the job, no one misses out but yes, sometimes you will need to make sacrifices, change times or move that particular raid mob to another night, such is life :)
There will be other mobs to raid though, other dungeons to hit up, it wouldn't be the end of the world, just next time be early or beat that guild to the mob if you really want it but either way, once it's dead, they are locked out (if using my system) and then you get a shot at it.
Dullahan said:The idea that any one guild will farm everything assumes so much, and you know what they say about those who assume. Its even worse to think that they will not only lock everything down, but that they will go back to old raid content and lock that down too just to sell for real life money.
For a guild to monopolize and farm all content, especially raid content, that would mean raid targets would have to be predictable and easy to monitor. It would mean there would have to be no other guilds chomping at the bit waiting for those same targets to pop and it would mean there would never be a time where multiple mobs respawned at once like after patches or maintenance. Beyond that, it assumes clearing raid content will require very little time devoted, and that people would have the time to kill both the new content, and the old. These assumptions are really piling up here.
Lets just stop assuming Visionary Realms are completely inept shall we?
That would be very nice :)
Many of us on the team have raided at the top level in many games, we will not intentionally add or remove things that ruin that experience and we have seen many of the problems that players and guild face and will be doing what we can to avoid those situations as we create our groups and raids.
Kilsin said:Nanoushka said: I agree with you Anticlergy that waiting in line doesn't seem very appealing, for the reasons you mentioned.The lockout timer applies to the character, not the guild, so it doesn't matter if you are in a guild, group or PUG, if you are part of the kill and are eligible for loot, you get the lockout timer, if you want to raid the same mob again, switch to an alt ;)
Yeah I figured that it'd work that way :). I still don't find it appealing, altho I understand it is a solution to a potential issue. Esp with very quick respawn timers I feel it might as well be instanced, it would lose the sense of meaning of a boss mob that is on a (much) longer spawn timer. I'd rather not have "guaranteed" bosses, it loses some of its magic then very quickly, at least to me.
But I've never played VG, I may have the wrong idea of how that'd work out :).
Oh and competition never bothered me, it's more the whole concept of people waiting their turn.
Nanoushka said:Kilsin said:Nanoushka said: I agree with you Anticlergy that waiting in line doesn't seem very appealing, for the reasons you mentioned.The lockout timer applies to the character, not the guild, so it doesn't matter if you are in a guild, group or PUG, if you are part of the kill and are eligible for loot, you get the lockout timer, if you want to raid the same mob again, switch to an alt ;)
Yeah I figured that it'd work that way :). I still don't find it appealing, altho I understand it is a solution to a potential issue. Esp with very quick respawn timers I feel it might as well be instanced, it would lose the sense of meaning of a boss mob that is on a (much) longer spawn timer. I'd rather not have "guaranteed" bosses, it loses some of its magic then very quickly, at least to me.
But I've never played VG, I may have the wrong idea of how that'd work out :).
Oh and competition never bothered me, it's more the whole concept of people waiting their turn.
And not all mobs need to be put onto a lockout timer, we can pick and choose which ones we want to control, we can leave some overland bosses for guilds and groups to fight over if that is what people want but for the majority of the content I personally like the lockout rule, that isn;t officially speaking though, I am not sure how we will deal with that but it is probably something to discuss with everyone during testing :)
Kilsin said:
Kelem was just describing the Overland raid mobs in VG, there was still many behind keyed or flagged content or down the bottom of a dungeon that required many hours of clearing trash and mini named to get too, some of which only a handful of guilds could reach, so the element of challenge will definitely still be there but I just meant everyone has equal opportunity to try, not all will succeed though :)
I can get down with this man. I am all for a challenge.
Basically, as you can see from my post history, I just want this game to be amazing. I want the world of Pantheon with the raids I ahve come to love in other games. But, I am gonna sit back and give you all the benefit of the doubt. I just do hope that you guys design encounters that are hard as hell and make it so people can do progression without having to fight other guilds for it. I mean real encounters. Days of wiping. That would be epic.
VERY interesting discussion.... :)
I didn't really raid the first time around playing EQ. Went on raids but never joined a "Raid" guild.
I came back about a year ago from a 6.5 year break.
I LOVE raiding! :D
Would encourage EVERYONE to give it a try.
I think a LOT of those non-raiders are missing out on some of the biggest gun in a game. (EQ for me)
I DO remember the heated conversations amongst raiding guilds tho. Now that I enjoy raiding myself, I'm really enjoying this discussion, and have a new appreciation for the topic.
I only read the newest page of posts. MANY good comments and ideas. Thanks to all for your input!
It SOUNDS to me that Vanguard had a great system for sure. Not being an expert on endgame raiding and having read so little so far... I'm hoping for the Vanguard model at present.
What happened when a guild failed to bring their instance of the Boss in question down? Could another step in and kill it? Did he despawn and interrupt the cycle?
I also found the post about spawning "gods" interesting. I'm guessing that Pantheon's world simply won't go along with that model. God's, after all, can be summoned/invited/requested. They can pop into the world any time they want, any where they want. A dragon on the other hand... say... Vulak Aerr :) ... however, cannot. He only lives in Temple of Veeshan. But still a very interesting system of spawning a raid target. But I also think most any Boss should be spawnable given the right prereq's are met. /shrug
Enjoying the discussion. Keep it up, Guys! :)
Kilsin said:Nanoushka said:Kilsin said:Nanoushka said: I agree with you Anticlergy that waiting in line doesn't seem very appealing, for the reasons you mentioned.The lockout timer applies to the character, not the guild, so it doesn't matter if you are in a guild, group or PUG, if you are part of the kill and are eligible for loot, you get the lockout timer, if you want to raid the same mob again, switch to an alt ;)
Yeah I figured that it'd work that way :). I still don't find it appealing, altho I understand it is a solution to a potential issue. Esp with very quick respawn timers I feel it might as well be instanced, it would lose the sense of meaning of a boss mob that is on a (much) longer spawn timer. I'd rather not have "guaranteed" bosses, it loses some of its magic then very quickly, at least to me.
But I've never played VG, I may have the wrong idea of how that'd work out :).
Oh and competition never bothered me, it's more the whole concept of people waiting their turn.
And not all mobs need to be put onto a lockout timer, we can pick and choose which ones we want to control, we can leave some overland bosses for guilds and groups to fight over if that is what people want but for the majority of the content I personally like the lockout rule, that isn;t officially speaking though, I am not sure how we will deal with that but it is probably something to discuss with everyone during testing :)
I realize this is an old topic, but I wanted to just comment that I'm glad the devs are considering solutions to this. Some racing might be okay, but completely locking out other guilds week-over-week from content was a concern for me and I think timers are a start to a good solution. I don't have all day to log in at a moment's notice like I did back in 2000 and I would hate to see guilds have an advantage simply by being in a different time zone.
So I'm really happy to see some of these solutions being considered!
Vanguard used (First to Engage) -- Pantheon will be using (Most Damage Done) ... this kill credit distinction is enough to throw a serious monkey wrench in the program. It would be nice to know if VR has a plan on how they can make it work in Pantheon but as far as I'm concerned the lockout mechanic from VG is no longer part of the plan.
oneADseven said:Vanguard used (First to Engage) -- Pantheon will be using (Most Damage Done) ... this kill credit distinction is enough to throw a serious monkey wrench in the program. It would be nice to know if VR has a plan on how they can make it work in Pantheon but as far as I'm concerned the lockout mechanic from VG is no longer part of the plan.
Can you elaborate? Why does that throw a wrench in the engine?
In Vanguard you could engage a raid boss and it would lock to the raid team that initiated combat. Players outside of that raid couldn't contribute to the fight and thus kill-stealing was impossible. With the MDD model these raid bosses will not be locked to any specific team and can be engaged by an unknown amount of players. What this means is that Raid Team A could engage a boss and then shortly afterwards Raid Team B also engages and they both DPS race it down. If the lockout is applied to anybody who damaged the mob then both teams would get the lockout even though the kill credit would be limited to a single team. That opens up the door for some pretty nasty griefing potential because you could effectively KS another team's mob while also triggering their lockout for added measure. It could be possible to make it so the lockout only affects the players who earn kill credit but that opens up another can of worms.
This can of worms is basically the idea of having multiple groups working together that don't form a raid and then gaming the system for kill credit. When a lockout mob was killed in Vanguard it would generally respawn a short period of time later. So now imagine a raid boss spawning that is designed for 24 players ... but you have 60 players who fight it without forming a raid ... 10 groups of 6. What this means is that only one group of players will receive the lockout even though it took 60 players to kill the mob. Players would eventually break down the kill credit formula and find ways to assign credit to the lowest amount of players possible. For all intents and purposes, they could zerg it with 150 solo players and make it so only one player receives the lockout. Any/all content that has a lockout and fast respawn would become a loot pinata.
It will never cease to amaze me that you can have 9 pages of discussion about casual guilds wanting to experience content.. not be blocked by other players... and ultimately want to be able to take their time and progress at their own speed... but the mere mention of instances for raids sends everyone's panties in a bunch.
Stop avoiding the inevitable!
IMO a mixture of mechanics will work best. If there are 10 raid mobs in the game. Make 3 or 4 of them available in instances (at varying difficulty levels). Make a few of them open world multiple day lockouts with shorter respawns time. And make a few longer respawn MDD no lockouts.
The highly competitive guilds will most likely kill 10 bosses a week. The less competitive ones 6 or 7. And the casual guilds will have their chance at 1-4 or so depending on their skill levels.
