GoofyWarriorGuy said:Kilsin said: Folks, I have given our official replies in this thread
Keno Monster said: Is it documented somewhere?
His posts are in this thread if you read from the beginning. Should be noted that this was a necro'd thread (old one that somebody found and started posting on again) and his posts were made back before it was 'necro'd'.
Unfortunately these are limited forums at the moment and we don't have an easy way to see VR posts quickly in a thread. Once they move us to updated new forums I'm sure there will be features that allow us to see which threads have replies by VR staff and can quickly jump to those posts. (Much like you can on Blizzards forums).
For now you can always try going to his profile: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/profile/Kilsin and browse through his recent posts to see what Kilsin has said on these kinds of topics.
Just a small note in case some were unaware, Kilsin prefers that we necro threads rather than starting multiples on the same theme. :)
Cana
Tevarion said:Actually the old style, free for all, having guilds hop over each other and scramble to get people on was one of the things i love most about eq raiding because when we cleared a raid or killed a boss or got a server first it meant that much more. It was truly...not just anyone can do this. Post eq one of the things i have hatted the most is this constant strive to appeal to all players under one roof and allow everyone to have a chance to see the same end game and get the same epic gear regardless if they play 40hrs a week or 2....I PERSONALLY DESPISE THAT!
You have a job and cant dedicate the time to learn and clear Plane of TIme, but you want to be able to get the same stuff and kill the same mobs as those of us who would duck out of work for a 30min to kill a world boss? screw you! Just like in real life, you get out what you put in and if you cant dedicate the time to be in the high-end raid guilds then you will just have to accept that there are some things you cant get and some mobs you cant kill, or you can go play WoW or any of the dozzens of others that are trying to bow to every delicate snowflake because they think they should get a trophy for showing up.
Im sorry im old school. When i grew up if you didnt wear a helmet and crashed yoru bike you got brain damage, if you were not smart enough not to a fork in an electric socket you died...no warning labels no advocacy groups, just good ole fashion Darwinism at its best. That being said the things i hate the most about casual players who think they are "entitled" to get the same stuff as the hard-core is the entire premise is just stupid. You are saying that if you cant do everything and get everything then the game sux or you dont like it...WTF is wrong with you? (generic you not the op). There is TONS and TONS and TONS of other stuff for you to do and if the only way you can enjoy the game is get the hardest stuff then man up and quit your job or stop whinning.
The reason people drooled at epic gear and the leet drops from super hard raids was BECAUSE they knew they likely would never have a shot at it and it either motivated them or, like a celebrity, was fun to oooo and ahhh over. Besides that part of the game is less than 10%, so enjoy the other 90% and stop thinking everyone should get a damn meddal just for playing. Again, if it bothers you, Eq, Pantheon is NOT for you. if not being able to have access to 5% or 10% of the mobs/gear ruins the other 95% for you man up and become hard core or seek psychiatric help.
And for the record. Having been in a few of the top raid guilds in EQ i can tell you we OFTEN brought in other guilds or outstanding solo players on raids and their were many reasons for that. So if you cant keep the time commitments of a top raid guild but you still want to do the raids they do then become STELLAR at playing your class and i will 100% guarantee you will be noticed and you will be asked to participate in events.
I actually agree with most of what you stated, although it probably could've been written a little more diplomatically.
However, I will agree 100% with your last paragraph. If someone wants to be able to raid but can't commit to a full raiding schedule you definitely can still get in on raids by being a great player. If you have a reputation for being awesome people will know you and you will get opportunities to fill in.
I agree with some of what Tevarion said although the attacks on anyone with a differing perspective greatly weakened his point rather than strengthening it.
As I understand Pantheon-that-will-be it is a game of exploration, slow development, slow travel, crafting and harvesting, and grouping more than soloing or raiding. There will be content for soloers and raiders but this is not the focus of the game. I won't say that hardcore raiders should look elsewhere - there is room in Pantheon for many playstyles - but I don't think VR is likely to focus enough on raid content to keep them at all happy.
Just as I argue that soloers should have things to do in this group-focused game, so should raiders. There should be at least one or two difficult raids that people with lives may not have enough time to beat.
But the great bulk of the content should not require us to quit our jobs or play 40 hours a week to get to, enjoy and complete.
((I'm still not sure if Tevarion was serious or was doing a reductio ad absurdum spoof of the raiding community))
I disagree with Tevarion on a fundamental point. Content should be primarily gated by skill, not by time. If a group of people have more time, they will reach that content earlier. Need good gear for a tough boss? The group with more time will get that gear first and be the first to attempt the tough boss. No problem or complaints there. But when a group with less time eventually reaches that point they should have the opportunity to try that tough boss. It will be in Week 9 instead of Week 3 and that is no problem. But if the first group is a bunch of entitled jerks they could very well shut out everyone who comes later and that is the issue.
I take exception when people state that "casual gamers" want hand-outs or free pixels. That is a misrepresentation of the situation to fit the entitled mind of the hard-core gamer. If I pay the same subscription fee that I should have the opportunity to experience all the content, during era. If the content itself prevents this, no problem - I want a tough and challenging game (think Naxx in Vanilla WoW). What is being discussed here is when other guilds prevent this. If a guild shuts everyone out of a raid because they got there first, then I am basically subsidizing your game experience. I'm paying for 100% of the game but only getting 95% of the content - not because I can't do it, but because someone else got there first.
The hard-core gamer argument says that "casual gamers" want everything they have. Every single piece of loot, every single piece of glory. That is utter garbage. Maybe some whining 12 year old playing WoW thinks this, but not the Pantheon game community. The Pantheon game community is much older and more mature - we're all old school. All I want for my guild is to not be shut out when the time comes for my guild to try the difficult content.
disposalist said:Porygon said:Fact of the matter is that if you create an "open world" game you are creating competition.
They don't have to say they are making a game focused on competition. By creating the game the way they are, there will be competition.
The only way to remove open world competition is with instances. Any other solution is just reducing the amount of competition.
If you don't want to compete, you should be pushing for instances, because there is no effective way to remove competition without them.
Again and again and again.
Open World = Cooperation. Sharing. Trading. Chatting. Socialising. Competition is a by-product. You see it differently? Clearly.
They dont say they are making a games focused on competition because *they aren't*. They mention every other aspect of Open World because they are definitely desirable and are selling points. They mention the negatives of competition and that they will counter them because that is also a selling point.
Competition *could be* a positive? Maybe. I'm *still* yet to hear someone define "fun/healthy" competition and, yet, everyone knows many many examples of bad and unhealthy competition.
The only thing I can think of is if it's somehow consentual like flagging for PvP otherwise half the people involved will be having a bad/unhealthy experience.
No one said they want or expect NO competition in any form. I'm sure VR will come up with something that keeps competitive types and everyone else happy.
And instancing is not the only way to resolve the negatives of competition as we all know by now if we've read any of these threads.
What are you even replying to. You just said the same thing I did. They are creating an open world game. Bu doing so they are creating competition. Is that not what a by product is?
It does not matter if they are marketing the game as an open world cooperative game.. you can't force cooperation. By not having a way to separate guild a, or group a or player a from b... you are inherently creating competition.
So again.. what are you even talking about?
And no there has not been an alternative listed that would eliminate this. I know. I've poked holes in almost every suggestion. Instancing is the best way whether anyone likes ot or not.
I don't care if we have instancing, I know where I will be on reference to the rest of the server. I'm not worried.
Porygon said:Instancing is the best way whether anyone likes ot or not.
I don't care if we have instancing, I know where I will be on reference to the rest of the server. I'm not worried.
Again, I keep finding myself agreeing with this weird bird guy.
I feel there should be instanced raid zones that give people better gear than the'll find on bosses in the open world. Could be some super rare very spread out peices that compete. But then also there should be open world bosses that only the top of the top raid guilds will manage to kill. Since these would be so difficult, I have no issue with them being open world contested mobs. But for the rest of us who will do all the level appropiate stuff and still want to dabble in end game raids, I feel instancing is the best solution.
Jamie said:but I would expect people to be able to drop what they are doing between 7pm and 12am to hit whatever targets may or may not be up or coming up.
Why would you expect that? People have work, other friends, activities, kids, etc. Expecting them to be able to drop everything between 7 and 12 seems rather ridiculous.
As someone with pretty much all of those things, the thought of my favorite aspect of MMOs (PvE boss encounters) being largely unavailable to me due to open world competition and control is really disheartening. While Pantheon so far seems set on open world-only, I must chime in with others with my opinion that instancing is largely superior. It's fine to have some open world boss encounters (heck, even encouraged), but ALL of them being open world? That's going to be a problem.
Kittik said:Again, I keep finding myself agreeing with this weird bird guy.
Porygon is a Pokémon made completely out of programming code. It has a pink polyhedral body with a blue stomach, blue triangular prism feet, and a blue rectangular prism tail. It has a pink, polyhedral head that ends in a blue beak and has hexagonal eyes. Built into this code is Silph Co. copy protection DRM, preventing duplication through electronic means. Due to its man-made origins, Porygon does not need to breathe or eat, though it can still accept food if given. It has the ability to convert its body into digital data, allowing it to travel through cyberspace. It was created 20 years ago using the latest technology of its time, so many of its parts have since become obsolete.
Just FYI
One point for instance. Devs can control the difficulty of encounter by more accurately tuning it to the raid group limit. Eg 30 players... 42 players as example. You can specificaly tune it much more accurately because you can control the crowd. This also allowed them to Increase the difficulty of the raid by having an alternate loot table that was set for a lower player base..18-24 players. You can do neither of these with an open world boss.
I see no issue with allowing raids alone being instanced. This will not encourage group finder... raid and forget who you were with...
Vanguard did seem to have an adequate work around for this as the info presents itself as far as competition over the mob. This however does not address the devs ability to control the raid population itself as instancing can allow.