Thunndar said: You aren't entitled to the 6 pack at the gym but you are allowed to use the equipment.
That is a pretty loose application of that analogy. There are a lot of things the average person can't do in a gym. Sure, they can use most of the equipment, but not the way other people use it. Just because you lay on the bench doesn't mean you can lift the weight.
The equipment is logging in and playing the game. If you want to accomplish something once logged in, you have to put forth the time and effort.
In EQ, everyone could raid. There were always some raid that anyone could take part in. On the server I played on originally (Tarew Marr), there were pick up raids in the plane of fear and hate. I got almost my entire set of planar "raid" armor by doing this. That didn't mean I was entitled to kill CT or Inny. That was something you had to work harder for. As soon as everyone is entitled to kill every raid target, that changes everything. What you will end up with is a game where players have to raid, because there is no excuse not to have the best gear... everyone else will.
Endalmir said:Kilsin said:Sorry if I made it sound official, I was just explaining how it worked in VG so everyone could get a better understanding of how the lockout timers worked, they are not as evil as some may think but we haven't decided how we will handle this yet, it will most likely be something we tweak in testing while under server load with guilds/group :)
Perfect! Thanks for the clarification, Kilsin. I hope, if such a system were implemented, we would see a mixture of lockout and free-for-all targets. Ideally, targets related to storyline or content progression would have lockout timers.
You're welcome and there will be a mixed bag of locked, open, named, respawn timers, camps etc. so I wouldn't worry too much, there will be something for almost everyone :)
Some open world raid competitors fine but if I want to play a game where I'm competing against my fellow game I'll join a PvP realm. I rarely PvP to be honest though it can be fun it's just not my thing. So if you go to raid an open world boss and another guild is killing it fine but I have seen instances in EQ where the guild didn't just sit and wait they actively pulled mobs into the fight to try and force a wipe which I guarantee is not fun at all if it was WoW and everyone could jut run back buff and attack in 2-3 min not so bad. And any who say it doesn't happen never played EQ I remember quit a few guilds mad at each other causing all sorts of grief. so I an not to fond of open world raid content. Also you are correct to mention that it sorted it self out after a while but it also took a massive decline in server population for this to happen when players realized make the game a pain for others didn't make it better for them selves. Nothing like waiting all week to do a raid then having others come along and ruin it for you. Player competition can be enjoyable but it will always be taken to far. So I favor both systems at once this way those that want to raid open world go for it those that want a closed system can enjoy that as well. Another thing this would eliminate is the massive lag spikes that happen when you have large numbers of players is the same area.
What I don't want to see is instanced content such as we find in WoW. Competition for raid bosses can be fun, and I would like to see enough of that raid content to keep that competition fresh. Ideally however, I think phasing could solve a lot of problems. I know this is a rather unpopular opinion around here. The majority, or at least the most vocal, tend to want things as much like Vanilla EQ as possible, but I think a healthy mix of contested content, phased boss battles (or Vanguard style lockouts), and other types of raid content is the best solution. I am WAY past the point in my life when I could devote 40 hours a week into a game, all to support raiding. Please, don't misunderstand me. I had a blast doing it, and wouldn't trade those good times for anything, and for those that continue to enjoy it, I sincerely hope Pantheon offers you the quality of entertainment you're looking for. As for me though, I would appreciate a choice of raid content in which to participate. I'm OK with 100% contested stuff offering the best rewards (as it should), but options are usually a good thing.
Also, I've seen some rather poor analogies tossed about regarding this issue as well. No we don't deserve to drive a Lamborghini to work everyday, but we do deserve to drive. Just because you've worked hard to buy that $1M dollar car doesn't mean I have to take the bus.
Dullahan said:Thunndar said: You aren't entitled to the 6 pack at the gym but you are allowed to use the equipment.That is a pretty loose application of that analogy. There are a lot of things the average person can't do in a gym. Sure, they can use most of the equipment, but not the way other people use it. Just because you lay on the bench doesn't mean you can lift the weight.
The equipment is logging in and playing the game. If you want to accomplish something once logged in, you have to put forth the time and effort.
In EQ, everyone could raid. There were always some raid that anyone could take part in. On the server I played on originally (Tarew Marr), there were pick up raids in the plane of fear and hate. I got almost my entire set of planar "raid" armor by doing this. That didn't mean I was entitled to kill CT or Inny. That was something you had to work harder for. As soon as everyone is entitled to kill every raid target, that changes everything. What you will end up with is a game where players have to raid, because there is no excuse not to have the best gear... everyone else will.
Everyone who pays to play the game IS entitled to try. Success though, is something else entirely. Nobody is asking for an I win button.
I've been playing MMO since 99. Since EQ beta. I've been in big guilds and small guilds and raid only guilds and server alliances of all kinds.
I can't stand it when the elite try and say who can play this content and who can't.
Thunndar said:Dullahan said:Thunndar said: You aren't entitled to the 6 pack at the gym but you are allowed to use the equipment.That is a pretty loose application of that analogy. There are a lot of things the average person can't do in a gym. Sure, they can use most of the equipment, but not the way other people use it. Just because you lay on the bench doesn't mean you can lift the weight.
The equipment is logging in and playing the game. If you want to accomplish something once logged in, you have to put forth the time and effort.
In EQ, everyone could raid. There were always some raid that anyone could take part in. On the server I played on originally (Tarew Marr), there were pick up raids in the plane of fear and hate. I got almost my entire set of planar "raid" armor by doing this. That didn't mean I was entitled to kill CT or Inny. That was something you had to work harder for. As soon as everyone is entitled to kill every raid target, that changes everything. What you will end up with is a game where players have to raid, because there is no excuse not to have the best gear... everyone else will.
Everyone who pays to play the game IS entitled to try. Success though, is something else entirely. Nobody is asking for an I win button.
I've been playing MMO since 99. Since EQ beta. I've been in big guilds and small guilds and raid only guilds and server alliances of all kinds.
I can't stand it when the elite try and say who can play this content and who can't.
Nobody is saying we should restrict players from raiding, like segregation or something... all I see people saying.. and I agree with them, is that raid content should not be designed around the lowest common denominator like it has been since EQ. Lowest common denominator meaning the thing that all players share.. which is that they can play the game for more than 1 hour a day.
It is my opinion that if exclusivity of raiding is removed for Pantheon, and the majority of raid content is "lockout" based, that this game will not be nearly as successful as it could have been. It should be like a real world as much as possible, and in the real world, resources are consumed, not replicated for every single human being's desire.
We have to be careful in what we wish to be hardcore, and time consuming to us. The majority of us have jobs, families, grandkids now. We started playing EQ when it was first started. It took days on end to find a part. Later on, that wasnt an issue. You still can spend up to 8 hrs a day in any game session, or raid, if failed. Remember we all got so effecient with raiding that we would announce, jump and get moving because we wanted to spend as little time possilble prepping.
We dont have the time we once had, we also have to rely on the younger generation moving us forward to keep us busy.
Our experience in mmo's is unfounded, and not gone unnoticed but we might not be able to handle 8 hour raids or 24 hour camp nights anymore.
I am all in favor of having something so hardcore time sync, it takes weeks to finish a quest of worth. I am not sure, we should have to sit there waiting until a PH spawns in order to get a raid started. Not one of us in our 40's+ with the above mentioned lives will be able to "Camp watch" anymore to get key parts, or see if a PH is up to spawn the event.
Like i said we would need the younger generation to be able to handle that for us.
We are the lorekeepers now, and must let the reins fall down a few decades in order to move past the hardcore events.
Crazzie said:...
I am all in favor of having something so hardcore time sync, it takes weeks to finish a quest of worth. I am not sure, we should have to sit there waiting until a PH spawns in order to get a raid started. Not one of us in our 40's+ with the above mentioned lives will be able to "Camp watch" anymore to get key parts, or see if a PH is up to spawn the event.
Like i said we would need the younger generation to be able to handle that for us.
We are the lorekeepers now, and must let the reins fall down a few decades in order to move past the hardcore events.
This may show my inexperience, but what does the prefix/abreviation "PH" mean (not sure where it goes so)? :P if its an EQ thing as I mentioned a few times in the forums I missed that game ( D: ) but it will make your comment make a lot more sense to me, I'm sure. (I assume its a variation if named mob/rare spawn? :P )
Rachael said:Crazzie said:...
I am all in favor of having something so hardcore time sync, it takes weeks to finish a quest of worth. I am not sure, we should have to sit there waiting until a PH spawns in order to get a raid started. Not one of us in our 40's+ with the above mentioned lives will be able to "Camp watch" anymore to get key parts, or see if a PH is up to spawn the event.
Like i said we would need the younger generation to be able to handle that for us.
We are the lorekeepers now, and must let the reins fall down a few decades in order to move past the hardcore events.
This may show my inexperience, but what does the prefix/abreviation "PH" mean (not sure where it goes so)? :P if its an EQ thing as I mentioned a few times in the forums I missed that game ( D: ) but it will make your comment make a lot more sense to me, I'm sure. (I assume its a variation if named mob/rare spawn? :P )
PH = Place Holder
A mob that spawns in the place of a named and needs to be killed for a chance to see the named spawn in that general location.
Usually you see something like an 80% chance to spawn a PH and a 20% chance to spawn the named or 90%/10% or 95%/5% if the Devs are feeling evil :)
Kilsin said:PH = Place Holder
A mob that spawns in the place of a named and needs to be killed for a chance to see the named spawn in that general location.
Usually you see something like an 80% chance to spawn a PH and a 20% chance to spawn the named or 90%/10% or 95%/5% if the Devs are feeling evil :)
Ah that makes a lot of sense, TYVM Kilsin for the clarification :D, I would never have thought of that no matter how obvious it seems now :S
edit: ty too Crazzie, :)
Rachael said:Kilsin said:PH = Place Holder
A mob that spawns in the place of a named and needs to be killed for a chance to see the named spawn in that general location.
Usually you see something like an 80% chance to spawn a PH and a 20% chance to spawn the named or 90%/10% or 95%/5% if the Devs are feeling evil :)Ah that makes a lot of sense, TYVM Kilsin for the clarification :D, I would never have thought of that no matter how obvious it seems now :S
edit: ty too Crazzie, :)
You're welcome :)
Rachael said:Kilsin said:PH = Place Holder
A mob that spawns in the place of a named and needs to be killed for a chance to see the named spawn in that general location.
Usually you see something like an 80% chance to spawn a PH and a 20% chance to spawn the named or 90%/10% or 95%/5% if the Devs are feeling evil :)Ah that makes a lot of sense, TYVM Kilsin for the clarification :D, I would never have thought of that no matter how obvious it seems now :S
edit: ty too Crazzie, :)
NP, Placeholders where a time sync slow down that did the first major game some good. If we didnt have PH we would have blown by the major raid, or quest content out there. By the time Kunark came around PH where already apart of the game. Randomly placed zone spawns where much harder to track like quillmane, but PH like VP key parts were a sit and wait. It used to upset people all the time, when you sat there for days trying to get the part. It took 3 days, where i took 1 minute to get the monk epic piece in Sol. Later on, PH in EQ became the only way they would use for Named Spawns. Such as the edition in COTF (call of the forsaken). Every small block of mobs had a named spawn. A PH was used so you could get chances for gear drops etc.. Nothing felt normal about this, and either did the quests which now became game achievements.
I am not saying achievements are not a bad thing, but dont cut it down so badly that the vision tm disappears from the game totally. Make it so we still are having some challenges so we dont have to go through what 17 years of EQ did.
Your raid vision tm disappears from the game completely. Some things are welcomed additions to the game like portal placements for large guild events. Eventually you seem to hit that xroad and EQ did that once, and failed to follow the orginal vision tm.
I have not play eq or wow but i have a lot of friends who have play both games and they all complain about the raid mobs being camp by a few uber raid guilds. In my opinion this should not happen here it would kill the game. Not sure about you all but i have a job and a real life and do not have the time or the effort to go and kill a raid mob at 3am in the morning. But what i do know is in VG the raid mobs were all on a 7 day lockout timer if you were in the raid that kill the mob, and the boss mob would respawn in 10-30 min so others raid guilds could have a go at it and it work wonders for the raiding community. I ran one of the top raiding guilds in VG and we work with all guilds on raid times for mobs. So yes i would love to see the same thing here as we had in VG it would work well for all
Kilsin said:You're welcome and there will be a mixed bag of locked, open, named, respawn timers, camps etc. so I wouldn't worry too much, there will be something for almost everyone :)
As a newbie to the forum I've been reading through old posts and I'm glad to hear there will be a variety of 'solutions' applied.
The 'conclusion' I was coming to was, in a modern game, why not apply a variety of solutions, even to a single raid?
If the contested Golden Dragon has a 7-day lock out, why not allow a guild having just killed it to do it again, but in an instance? Maybe have the instance version drop worse loot, coz they aren't finding challenging, being able to do it repeatedly?
A weird example, perhaps, but do you see what I mean? Maybe there's a wandering PH for a particular item - maybe there's a static but random-timed spawn as well?
I like the idea of a lock out timer for guilds ( although I would think that it ends up locking out the toon, not the guild tag to prevent abuse ) as a way to solve top tier guilds from keeping lower tier guilds from advancing. But I would also like to see raid content such as PoFear / PoHate as a means of clearing trash mobs in the raid zone in order to gear out your raid force, not on every expansion, but at least for classic Pantheon and maybe the 3rd+ expansions in years to come.
I would also like to see if the community could devise a system that allows guilds on the same "tier" of raiding be able to compete for the same raid targets. Im well aware that such a vague system could be easily abused, so lets pitch some ideas on how we could collectivly design a system and gift wrap it for the Devs for Xmas.
Dullahan said:Xanier said:I love the idea of no instancing HOWEVER my 5 year history in EQ, pre-Kunark till wow launched, it was painfully obvious in the endeavors of class weapons that the biggest guilds, on most the time controlled all major open world boss's and the little people or those with more of a life got the shaft.
it is my understanding that all raid content is going to be in the world and that concerns me because what I am PERASONALLY after is to schedule a consistent raid time with my friends/guildies. if, however, everything is openly contested the biggest guilds will manipulate those raid encounters. I know there is a fine line between competition+risk reward and mob dominance. I saw this a lot in EQ and it's one those things I really don't ever want to see again. I don't mind not seeing everything in the game if i can't work for it but thats a different scenario then not being to see everything in the game because it's being hoarded and domincated by 1 or 2 powerful guilds.
Xanier
I personally do not believe there is a need for mechanics like instancing or even lockout timers to exist if designed properly with the contraints necessary to prevent players from easily gaming the system. I've put forth a few suggestions on this in the past that I'll post again here.
The first of which would be server repops similar to those which existed in EQ following maintenance. Back then, servers usually came up during the day when a lot of players were still at work or school. Still, on Tarew Marr I remember raid targets remaining up, even in the evening. That probably was not the case on some servers with most hardcore guilds. Now, if these repops happened during prime time, all guilds would have a shot at a raid mob.
The second would be variance (see Ragefire in EQ circa 2000), but variance alone solves very little. Having followed and participated in the raid scene on P99 for years on both the blue and red servers, I think its also necessary to prevent players from easily determining whether a raid mob is up. Having the ability to track raid targets, or park a character in a raid target's lair means only the players that go to that extreme have a legitimate chance to compete. Then you have guilds that camp entire raids in a room when the mob comes into window. These things should be prevented. No tracking raid targets, no sneaking or training into a lair, no camping trackers or spotters in lairs, and definitely no camping guilds in a raid area.
If a guild wants to kill a raid mob, they should actually have to gather a raid force, and manually check whether a raid boss was up. While that guild was committed to checking one target, it would allow other guilds a chance to check others.
That said, contested open world content will mean competition. It will be unlikely that guilds will just casually waltz into a dungeon at a pre-planned hour and be guaranteed a chance at a raid boss. I can tell you the names of a dozen MMOs out there that offer ways of achieving that, but its my hope that Pantheon won't be one of them.
@Dullahan I am sorry, but this kind of thinking seems to reward having no life as opposed to skill. With this kind of thinking, the guild who has the most people online, or the most people who don't have a job, will get the best rewards. With this kind of thinking, guilds that have been downing some of the most mechanically challenging content in mmo's for years, will not stand a chance at progression against the mob of teenagers or no-lifers.
I am sorry. I get that you are passionate about things such as this from your post history. But, if you truly want this game to succeed, you may want to open your mind a bit. Because, if you really think that this game won't be a free-to-play game in about a year with just the people in these forums playing it, then I would prepare for that to happen. I know this is going to be a niche game, but money speaks louder than words in real life. I promise you that no matter what, the Devs will be trying to make money. And, with shallow design decisions, like recreating EQ with better graphics, it is not going to work in today's day and age.
So, my suggestion to the Devs is to balance content. Give progression raiders that epic raid. Give them an instance where they can coordinate with their guild. And, for those that think camping and scheduling raid times with 15 other guilds is fun, give them world bosses. Basically, and I will say it again, open-world content will most likely be lazy raid design. I find it hard to beleive that an open-world encounter can be mechanically challenging and be beaten. Furthermore, I have looked at videos from my own guild from the Vanguard days and from the EQ days and I have yet to see anything that looked liked a true mechanic. Basically, I saw littel to no movement, and not much stuff on the ground. All I saw was slow toons attacking slowly and standing still. And, this was supposed to be the highest content in the game.
I hope to god that the Devs read this. I would still love to see a response. But, while I truly do want this game to succeed, or else I wouldn't have donated money, I feel that they are doomed to repeat past mistakes. And, I also think that if they don't reconsider, we will hear the usual PR from them. It will be something along the lines of " We have decided to go F2P in order to get new people into the world." And, when the servers do shut down at some point, we will hear the same thing that was said about Vanguard. We will hear that there were all these great ideas that were not able to be in the game and that they learned from their mistakes. But, if they want to learn, please just reconsider your target audience. Make content for ALL people.
As I have said in other threads, and someone else said here...the bottom line is that if you play 40 hrs a week you are going to get more than someone who plays 2 hrs a week, and for me that is fine. Part of the problem nowadays is the idea that everyone should constantly be accomodated even if they just play 30 minutes a day. As long as there are meaningful fun and productive things to do in your 30 minutes, then the game has succeeded, but this idea that you should be able to be fully on par with people who play 10 hours a day is absurd. I don't have 10 hours a day to play and I don't want a game where my game time provides me the exact same opportunity as the guy who does. NOW, that being said, I do want a system that provides dedicated players who are not necessarily HARD CORE, but do invest a healthy amount of time, access and opportunities to raid content without it being totally controlled and monopolized by 2 mega guilds. Maybe lock out timers or such, where mob X respawns randomly between 3-5 days but the lockout is 7 days so that other people get a chance.
I do not support socialist raiding and/or easy top tier gear for everyone..
I am not and never have been a hardcore raiding type. I understand that high end raid competition in the days of old can create some toxic tension between guilds. Guess what though? That's a social stir! Servers get to know those famous/infamous players, it creates drama, it causes interaction and makes everything feel more real and relevant. If you want the best gear then you will put in the best effort that you can. Personally, I prefer dungeon crawling with smaller groups and getting nice drops from Named Mobs. I'm okay with that. I won't ever have Best-In-Slot gear. I don't need it. Just as in real life: People who work 70 hours a week tend to bring home more income versus those who work 20 (Granted the pay rate is similar). If you want to go out in to the open world of Pantheon to get these precious pixels, then you will get your hustle on. If you want instancing, lockouts, or other such mechanisms, then maybe this isn't the game for you after all. Again, this is coming from a "pleb" who still supports open world play.
You want to know the main reason I still support this? This is for all of you old EQ players (other older games as well). Remember being a noob killing spiders and you see that raid-gear-and-epic-weapon-player run by? ..or that person that had a super rare item with that certain texture that made the item easily identifiable (Think of a fungus tunic on a monk here.)? Items used to be reveled and desired. Most modern games make these type of items the par now and it's gross. It kills ambition and creates a lazy playerbase.
My $0.02 rant.
Kilaen said:I do not support socialist raiding and/or easy top tier gear for everyone..
I am not and never have been a hardcore raiding type. I understand that high end raid competition in the days of old can create some toxic tension between guilds. Guess what though? That's a social stir! Servers get to know those famous/infamous players, it creates drama, it causes interaction and makes everything feel more real and relevant. If you want the best gear then you will put in the best effort that you can. Personally, I prefer dungeon crawling with smaller groups and getting nice drops from Named Mobs. I'm okay with that. I won't ever have Best-In-Slot gear. I don't need it. Just as in real life: People who work 70 hours a week tend to bring home more income versus those who work 20 (Granted the pay rate is similar). If you want to go out in to the open world of Pantheon to get these precious pixels, then you will get your hustle on. If you want instancing, lockouts, or other such mechanisms, then maybe this isn't the game for you after all. Again, this is coming from a "pleb" who still supports open world play.
You want to know the main reason I still support this? This is for all of you old EQ players (other older games as well). Remember being a noob killing spiders and you see that raid-gear-and-epic-weapon-player run by? ..or that person that had a super rare item with that certain texture that made the item easily identifiable (Think of a fungus tunic on a monk here.)? Items used to be reveled and desired. Most modern games make these type of items the par now and it's gross. It kills ambition and creates a lazy playerbase.
My $0.02 rant.
Great post!