oneADseven said:The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
In VG, the last raid dungeon put out about 8 months before sunset was so bad that a pug raid had server 1sts within an hour or 2 of it going live.
Gragorie said:oneADseven said:The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
In VG, the last raid dungeon put out about 8 months before sunset was so bad that a pug raid had server 1sts within an hour or 2 of it going live.
I wouldn't count the "sunset era" of any game when it comes to determining meaningful server or world first accomplishments. I rerolled on an EQ2 timelocked server about a year ago and it was absolutely horrible. The game was literally NOTHING like it was in it's original form. Either everything was 10x easier, or it was impossibly hard. The people in charge of that server had no idea what they were doing, it was such an obvious cash grab it made me sick. When our server finally progressed to KoS (T7 Expansion) the game was so broken that it was literally impossible to progress. There were raid encounters (Hurricanus) that required a raid to mezz an add (was heroic in original EQ2) but on the timelocked server there were no heroic adds, they were all epic, and immune to mez. That encounter was impossible. Then we get to the 3 Princes and Mutagenic Outcast who both spawned tons of heroic adds ... now they're epic too. I tried explaining to the people running the server that the encounters were broken and just got the response that the game had evolved way too much for them to implement the encounters in their original form. All characters were just magically 3x as strong as they were in original EQ2 so the dev's response was to make all heroic adds epic. Again, completely broken.
Also, if a PUG raid was able to complete that zone within an hour or two of it going live, it was way too easy, and I'm going to doubt that there were any serious hardcore guilds still actively playing the game, as it's likely they would have beaten it within half an hour. Maybe not though right? I just find it far-fetched that a PUG raid would beat a serious raiding guild out when it comes to downing content, especially if it was that easy. Either there were no serious guilds actively playing, or there were some serious work/timezone conflictions going on. Either way I never played an MMO into their sunsetting phase. All of my memories of raiding were during a time where the game was at or near it's peak subscription population and playerbase.
Gragorie said:oneADseven said:The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
In VG, the last raid dungeon put out about 8 months before sunset was so bad that a pug raid had server 1sts within an hour or 2 of it going live.
That was more to do with the itemization being completely ruined, buff stacking, Aug exploiting and a range of other exploits and character cheats to make players way more powerful than the devs intended, not the dungeons itself's fault, but yeah, it was disappointingly easy, and I think a lot of people had given up on VG at that stage, including the last few team members supporting it. :(
Iksar said:Canno said:One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Nothing so good as working your way through a dungeon over a handful of levels only to finally reach the end/final camp of it. Much better than running instance dungeon 3 to completion over 30 minutes, 7 times before moving on to the next.
Absolutely. Leveling in a dungeon because you knew there was tougher stuff farther in. Testing yourself against the tougher stuff...
...asking someone to retrieve your corpses because you weren't ready for the tougher stuff... :D
Gnog said: Nothing will stop people without real life commitments from pouring their waking hours into maximizing their characters in PRF. The question is how large a gap to allow to emerge between players in that segment and more casual players. My preference would be for the gap to be small (meaning diminishing returns to hours invested beyond a certain point) so that the server will be populated by a mix of hardcore and less hardcore players.
Can't agree with this. If someone spends 10x as much time playing the game and focusing on advancing their character compared to someone else, they shouldn't be penalized by having their growth potential thwarted with diminishing returns. That's basically a force-placed handicap on all of the hardcore players. In doing such, how does that help with the population of less hardcore players? Are they going to feel better about the game, knowing that their 10% playtime translates to 85% progression whereas a hardcore player's 100% playtime translates to 100% progression? Are they going to recruit other less hardcore players into the game on that basis?
The gap should be large just like it is in any competitive (I understand some people play for social non-competitive reasons, others play competitively, and there is a huge variety of people somewhere in the middle) skill based game. The more effort and commitment you put into your character, the further you should be able to separate yourself from someone that does not. Enforcing a narrow gap between casual and hardcore is like setting up a 200 lap race with no driver or car type restrictions. Casual soccer moms can race their Toyota minivan against Nascar Pro Racers in their supercharged Shelby Cobra ... but here's the catch. All cars must have a speed limiter installed in their car which limits their max speed to 50 MPH.
The Nascar drivers and supercars would obviously still have an advantage because they would be able to accelerate to 50 faster coming out the gate, and even be able to maneuver the turns better. But other than that, the gap between cars and drivers throughout the entire span of the race is going be small. I can see how something like that would be pretty awesome for the soccer moms, their families, and spectators that showed up for the sake of seeing a circus on wheels. But for the poor Nascar Drivers ... and the die hard fans of the sport ... /wrists
And please note, that while I am using a race as my example, don't take it out of context. I am not saying that the game is designed to be a race. It's designed for players to have fun, whether they are casual or hardcore. But let's not alienate the hardcore players by creating a universal progression wall for people that get to play in the sandbox more than others.
And before someone says that the game isn't designed to be competitive ... let me stop you right there. Everything can be competitive. Some people want to compete to see how many clothespins they can attach to their body. Some people want to see how many tattoos they can get on their eyeballs. Some people want to see how many individual pieces of sand they can count in 24 hours. The thrill of competition is just a part of some people's DNA ... if someone decides they want to compete in a video game, why should anybody go out of their way to take that away from them? This always seems to be a one way street. You never see threads popping up where someone suggests that players should get "punished" for being casual. How would it go if I suggested that instead of diminishing returns for XP, they should instead implement increasing returns?
Finally I'm going to cite one of the tenets of this game ...
oneADseven said:Canno said:Didn't read all 7 pages but: Nothing will keep people from blasting to max level. Even in the tougher eras of EQ people went for max level asap, maxed out crafting asap - sometimes even sharing accounts to do so (being online 24h a day and active kinda tips that off ;) ).
In terms of what VR can do? Nothing. Anything they put it would hinder regular players unfairly at some point. Only suggestion I could give is not rewarding server firsts related to levelling (levels, crafting levels, etc). Let's face it, no one really remembers server firsts, more so level related in any other games - it fades from memory as unimportant. Now, server firsts for content is a different matter (EQ's Sleeper for instance) - reward for content based achievements.
MMO trends lately has been to make levelling easy and develop for end game content, it's way easier (and cost effective) to develop for one group of people and not several. IE: Make content for level 45-50, not 1-10,10-20, 20-30,30-40,40-50.
One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Seems a bit over-zealous when you make a comment that includes "everyone" or "no one" ...
I had the 2'nd level 70 worldwide in EQ2 and I'll never forget the ranger in NPU another server that got there first ... this was over 10 years ago. I'll also never forget the cleric "Redduce" on Diren's Hold Server EQOA. They were the first level 50 on the server, and I remember this from about 15 years ago. I'll also never forget the enchanter Ninikbik, who I barely beat out to become the first level 50 enchanter on server. You may not have remembered details like these because they weren't important to you. As someone who has always been one of the first to max level on a server wide level or worldwide level, I'll tell you that I do remember these things. And I know for a fact that plenty of the people I was guilded with remember it as well. Our guild had the majority of server first classes to level cap in every expansion, and there is no coincidence that we also discovered 90% of the raid loot(if you were first to loot something on a server in EQ2, it would show as a guild event that could be saved.) Our guild history showed every single epic weapon discovery, first boss kill, etc and we saved that progress for YEARS as a reminder of the reign of dominance our guild maintained on our server.
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Ah there's always one... "no one" and "everyone" is a generalization and not a literal. It's a language nuance. Like saying "hey guys" to a mixed gender crowd - it's not literally saying hello to just the guys.
But congrats on the record keeping.
Canno said:oneADseven said:Canno said:Didn't read all 7 pages but: Nothing will keep people from blasting to max level. Even in the tougher eras of EQ people went for max level asap, maxed out crafting asap - sometimes even sharing accounts to do so (being online 24h a day and active kinda tips that off ;) ).
In terms of what VR can do? Nothing. Anything they put it would hinder regular players unfairly at some point. Only suggestion I could give is not rewarding server firsts related to levelling (levels, crafting levels, etc). Let's face it, no one really remembers server firsts, more so level related in any other games - it fades from memory as unimportant. Now, server firsts for content is a different matter (EQ's Sleeper for instance) - reward for content based achievements.
MMO trends lately has been to make levelling easy and develop for end game content, it's way easier (and cost effective) to develop for one group of people and not several. IE: Make content for level 45-50, not 1-10,10-20, 20-30,30-40,40-50.
One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Seems a bit over-zealous when you make a comment that includes "everyone" or "no one" ...
I had the 2'nd level 70 worldwide in EQ2 and I'll never forget the ranger in NPU another server that got there first ... this was over 10 years ago. I'll also never forget the cleric "Redduce" on Diren's Hold Server EQOA. They were the first level 50 on the server, and I remember this from about 15 years ago. I'll also never forget the enchanter Ninikbik, who I barely beat out to become the first level 50 enchanter on server. You may not have remembered details like these because they weren't important to you. As someone who has always been one of the first to max level on a server wide level or worldwide level, I'll tell you that I do remember these things. And I know for a fact that plenty of the people I was guilded with remember it as well. Our guild had the majority of server first classes to level cap in every expansion, and there is no coincidence that we also discovered 90% of the raid loot(if you were first to loot something on a server in EQ2, it would show as a guild event that could be saved.) Our guild history showed every single epic weapon discovery, first boss kill, etc and we saved that progress for YEARS as a reminder of the reign of dominance our guild maintained on our server.
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Ah there's always one... "no one" and "everyone" is a generalization and not a literal. It's a language nuance. Like saying "hey guys" to a mixed gender crowd - it's not literally saying hello to just the guys.
But congrats on the record keeping.
Are your multiple references of the word "nothing" or "anything" also supposed to be interpreted as generalizations, or am I missing the pattern with this language nuance you speak of? The problem with generalizing with a word like "no one" in the same sentence that you cite their accomplishments as unimportant is that you're downplaying the thoughts and opinions of said "no one's" when you make a comment like that.
Is "Ah there's always one" also a generalization, or do you realize that there are actually a ton of people just like me, which reinforces your first point that "nothing" can be done to stop people from blowing through content? For the sake of things not being taken out of context maybe it would be better if you used more selective wording. When you over generalize your statements there is a good chance that something you say can be misconstrued.
At the end of the day all subscriptions pay the same subscription regardless of the time any individual subscription puts into experiencing content. At the end of the day all subscriptions are treated the same for ongoing maintenance and development. So a balance is absolutely required to be able to accomodate lesser played subscriptions as well as greater played subscriptions. I don't believe it is an easy thing to do if the subscriber base becomes too dichotomous. When that happens I think one part of the subscriber base will be disenfranchised. And once disenfranchisement sets in I believe the demise of the game begins.
So how does one develop a game that does not cause a subscriber base to become dichotomous? I have no idea. I even wonder if those that would be in the other subscriber base as myself have an idea (since playing experiences are significantly different). It really will be on the experience of those developing the game to see if their vision for a non-dichotomous subscriber base is accheivable. Whatever that means.
Interesting, to say the least.
Why are we all still arguing about this. Nothing here will maie the devs stray from their plans. They have made that clear. We are just arguing about what we prefer and expecting everyone else to agree.
The time to argue about this is in alpha/beta, when we see how the leveling is and make suggestions +/- then.
Gragorie said:oneADseven said:The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
In VG, the last raid dungeon put out about 8 months before sunset was so bad that a pug raid had server 1sts within an hour or 2 of it going live.
When SoE devs made the fateful change of VG from a skill based game to a grind based game, all bets were off and the slowly accelerating descent into mediocrity began.
oneADseven said:...
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Well you may not have recalled, or ever experienced a server first. But I am sure others have and did.
Sorry, only screenshot I could find on short notice.
Canno said:Iksar said:Canno said:One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Nothing so good as working your way through a dungeon over a handful of levels only to finally reach the end/final camp of it. Much better than running instance dungeon 3 to completion over 30 minutes, 7 times before moving on to the next.
Absolutely. Leveling in a dungeon because you knew there was tougher stuff farther in. Testing yourself against the tougher stuff...
...asking someone to retrieve your corpses because you weren't ready for the tougher stuff... :D
Or even better yet, knowing that you can spend time in multiple dungeons, getting xp, exploring, doing quests, and know that you're not "missing out" on the content in every other dungeon of a level range because a night or two in one dungeon leveled you past all the others.
There's nothing that stops players from blasting to max level at launch, and I don't think there should be.
However, what always got me exploring the world in EQ more than any other MMORPG was the importance of gear (especially as a warrior). I definitely raced to 50 at launch, but afterward, I always tried to level based off the gear slots I needed to upgrade the most - so, not exactly like Dullahan had suggested, but, it gave me a reason to go to different obscure places to explore to get better gear like the Temple of Droga for an Idol of the Thorned that most importantly remained relevant for many levels and wasn't trivialized by the next ! Quest.
So, give me a reason to explore new places, and it doesn't always have to be the fastest leveling spots, and I'll go. Pantheon has many unique ideas that could expand on best in slot gear across obscure zones like multi-colored mana, discussion on potentially obtaining "mob skills", or dropped skills, dropped spells, climate acclimization etc. You won't stop all power gamers, but if people feel like they're missing out on something advantangeous by not exploring (I don't want forced locked progression), you'll slow down many.
I know for me if there were many ways to horizonatally progress my character, my leveling would slow down organically, and, I couldn't care less if the person playing 10+ hours a day achieves max level months before me. But, similar to me at EQ launch, you're not going to stop a person from racing to max level if that's the way they want to play, iregardless of whatever artificial restriction/gating mechanism that is implemented. If they aren't burned out at the point, more than likely they'll have moved on past the content that I want at that point (outside of potentially raid content).
For me, the best is to race and explore together. I will have one toon that I will try to max gear/level on quickly so that I can experience that content early and help others in the guild achieve the same. But, I will also have at least another toon, if not more, to explore and experience everything I can.
There is no reason we cannot do both over time.
zewtastic said:oneADseven said:...
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Well you may not have recalled, or ever experienced a server first. But I am sure others have and did.
Sorry, only screenshot I could find on short notice.
Did you even read my post before feeling the need to quote it and respond? I've experienced tons of server firsts and plenty of world firsts as well. My point was that in all my 15+ years of gaming online, I've never seen a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore guild EVER get a server first kill on anything significant. BotS was a hardcore guild in Vanguard so a screenshot of them server firsting something only reinforces my point.
oneADseven said:zewtastic said:oneADseven said:...
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Well you may not have recalled, or ever experienced a server first. But I am sure others have and did.
Sorry, only screenshot I could find on short notice.
Did you even read my post before feeling the need to quote it and respond? I've experienced tons of server firsts and plenty of world firsts as well. My point was that in all my 15+ years of gaming online, I've never seen a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore guild EVER get a server first kill on anything significant. BotS was a hardcore guild in Vanguard so a screenshot of them server firsting something only reinforces my point.
Well when server firsts are recorded and documented(they had a website where you could see all your firsts), as they were in VG originally, the highly competitive guilds of course rushed to achieve them. So it logically stands to reason less competitive guilds would not get firsts on major raid targets.
Server firsts were a fun curiousity of VG, which would in the early days before SSDs :), would crash entire raids, which was of course bad in regards to looting and etc.
And, of course after major code modifications, those firsts were reset at least once or twice in VGs lifetime. Which was very annoying for crafters as server firsts came with anything that was crafted first - again.
zewtastic said:oneADseven said:zewtastic said:oneADseven said:...
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Well you may not have recalled, or ever experienced a server first. But I am sure others have and did.
Sorry, only screenshot I could find on short notice.
Did you even read my post before feeling the need to quote it and respond? I've experienced tons of server firsts and plenty of world firsts as well. My point was that in all my 15+ years of gaming online, I've never seen a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore guild EVER get a server first kill on anything significant. BotS was a hardcore guild in Vanguard so a screenshot of them server firsting something only reinforces my point.
Well when server firsts are recorded and documented(they had a website where you could see all your firsts), as they were in VG originally, the highly competitive guilds of course rushed to achieve them. So it logically stands to reason less competitive guilds would not get firsts on major raid targets.
Server firsts were a fun curiousity of VG, which would in the early days before SSDs :), would crash entire raids, which was of course bad in regards to looting and etc.
And, of course after major code modifications, those firsts were reset at least once or twice in VGs lifetime. Which was very annoying for crafters as server firsts came with anything that was crafted first - again.
EQ2 used a similar system where you could record all server firsts in the guild tab. I loved that feature. Our guild history showed that we had discovered every epic weapon, mythic weapon, NPC kill, etc, and this information was preserved for years. We could only keep 500 events in our log at a given time and I remember having to decide which discoveries we wanted to keep. Was a good problem to have.
Based upon my experience with Rift, I hope that we do not see quickest dungeon crawls as a guild or player achievement. It was always a bit disappointing to get into one of these speed groups were they would skip a lot of the content to get to the end of the dungeon, thus not allowing newer plyers to get quest updates from a side tunnel or moving on before the player can read through the quest update.
When I first learned about uber guilds and DKPs, I thought they were completely unfair. I figured since not everyone had the time to invest in playing as much as others, then it wasn't fair to the people who couldn't make it because real life came first. Then, as time went on, I started to see the folly in my own arguement. As a longtime softball player, it was always the case that if you didn't go to practice, you didn't get to play in the games. It's not a 1:1 ratio with the original concept, but it's certainly more fair that the people who put the time in got the reward -- even if the reason for missing time was 100 percent acceptable. Then I started seeing people earning the top drop on a random loot roll when they never raided before and never came back to support other people after.
Then I realized that the problem wasn't uber guilds, DKPs, or leetuberhax players. The probem was that I was jealous, and that's not a very nice thing to be. I let my own jealousy cloud my judgement of what was actually fair in this situation. I enjoyed being in casual guilds with my friends, because to me, that was half the fun of MMOs. But I realized that other people gained their fun out of the game by being competative and playing to the best of their abilities. Those people also enjoy the game and make lasting friendships too, because they're hanging out with like-minded individuals.
I think the discussions we're having here can be put in the same category. I've joined a large guild for the start of Pantheon, but they don't seem the uber guild type. If we're not making server firsts for dungeons, world bosses, or whaterver, it's not going to impede my enjoyment of the game. In fact, I'll be cheering on the people who want to be server-firsts for playing the game how they enjoy.
I also appreciate the fear that if people race to level cap that people will get bored and start complaining to VR to make more content for them. We've seen that done before, and it hasn't worked well. However, I'll give some advice that my dad gave me long, long ago: "Don't panic early." The VR staff have been firm that they will stick to their guns and stick to their schedule. They want to make their game on their timeline, and they're not going to kowtow to a vocal minority. I have to at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they're going to keep that promise. (If they don't ... then you can panic. Thanks Dad! <3 Miss you!)
Lghtngfan said:When I first learned about uber guilds and DKPs, I thought they were completely unfair. I figured since not everyone had the time to invest in playing as much as others, then it wasn't fair to the people who couldn't make it because real life came first. Then, as time went on, I started to see the folly in my own arguement. As a longtime softball player, it was always the case that if you didn't go to practice, you didn't get to play in the games. It's not a 1:1 ratio with the original concept, but it's certainly more fair that the people who put the time in got the reward -- even if the reason for missing time was 100 percent acceptable. Then I started seeing people earning the top drop on a random loot roll when they never raided before and never came back to support other people after.
Then I realized that the problem wasn't uber guilds, DKPs, or leetuberhax players. The probem was that I was jealous, and that's not a very nice thing to be. I let my own jealousy cloud my judgement of what was actually fair in this situation. I enjoyed being in casual guilds with my friends, because to me, that was half the fun of MMOs. But I realized that other people gained their fun out of the game by being competative and playing to the best of their abilities. Those people also enjoy the game and make lasting friendships too, because they're hanging out with like-minded individuals.
I think the discussions we're having here can be put in the same category. I've joined a large guild for the start of Pantheon, but they don't seem the uber guild type. If we're not making server firsts for dungeons, world bosses, or whaterver, it's not going to impede my enjoyment of the game. In fact, I'll be cheering on the people who want to be server-firsts for playing the game how they enjoy.
I also appreciate the fear that if people race to level cap that people will get bored and start complaining to VR to make more content for them. We've seen that done before, and it hasn't worked well. However, I'll give some advice that my dad gave me long, long ago: "Don't panic early." The VR staff have been firm that they will stick to their guns and stick to their schedule. They want to make their game on their timeline, and they're not going to kowtow to a vocal minority. I have to at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they're going to keep that promise. (If they don't ... then you can panic. Thanks Dad! <3 Miss you!)
Well said, well explained, good post. Agreed.
Gnog said: @oneADseven, Your various analogies (NASCAR etc.) are not really applicable. In fact, there are usually diminishing returns to time invested in all kinds of competitions in the real world. The 80/20 principle is based on that insight. Moreover, diminishing returns on time is a common element of MMOs. Even the original EQ had its own form of diminishing returns built into the AA system. In each expansion, getting 1/2 of the available AA was typically enough to make you almost (but not quite) as strong as a character with 100% of their AA. This kind of progression system and others can be designed to moderate the power gap between casual and hardcore players. Strictly linear growth is not natural, nor necessary, nor desirable.
I didn't say that I was against diminishing returns. I simply stated that they shouldn't be implemented for the sole purpose of enforcing a "small gap" between hardcore and casual players.
If someone wants to play a video game competitively (first to max level, first to beat boss, first to unlock epic weapon) why should anybody with a different playstyle be going out of their way to interfere with that? I'd like to fall back to this point ...
Let's not alienate the hardcore players by creating a universal progression wall for people that get to play in the sandbox more than others.
That's like a store limiting how much money you can spend on groceries because you have more money than the other guy in line. Or charging you more for the same groceries for the same reason. We all have different incomes/appetities (playstyle/playtime) so let our individuality shine and stop being jealous that other people have more money (playtime). That's really all it comes down to whether people admit it or not. Like I said ... instead of diminishing returns on XP, how about we talk about increasing returns?
Personally I don't mind things like Gnog's suggesting re: AAs. It allows them to make a much longer grind to max level (as something you can work on at max level in your own time and make progress with more informal grouping) without the issues of dramatic differences in power.
But yeah artificial limits like hard maximums on what you can accomplish in a day typically feel pretty bad.
I really Hope VR Decides not to Show the information on who’s first at anything, That kinda thing while I’m sure is a nice warm fuzzy feeling to those who manage to achieve it, only serves to encourage Players to blow past content at record speeds all in the hopes to get a label, that in the end has nothing to do with the playing a group centric MMO and everything to do with narcissistic trophy hunting.