Regarding blasting through levels.. and I haven't thought it through much but would it be too detrimental to the enjoyment of the game (being one where camping particular areas is part of it to an extent)... if you are spending a long time on a particular set of mobs (camping them) that the experience you get diminishes the more you kill them (over a decent amount of time of course) to a base cap that is likely less desirable for someone trying to power through levels without moving around, exploring and finding new areas/mobs to kill.. this could possibly help with a few factors we have spoken about in various threads about people trying to own areas and lock them down to power level etc but also in this thread by making it harder to just smash a few levels on very xp heavy area and then moving on to the next and so on and so on. I would envisage you would be able to come back to the original camping spot / mobs after xyz amount of time and the xp gains are reset.
I guess one problem is the social side being one person is getting less than another in the group and might wanna bail because of it and maybe splitting up a few mates who would otherwise be fighting together etc, unless the whole group is effected based on average duration, this could still be manipulated i guess.
might be too complicated to do or just wouldnt work.. i dunno
Sorry if this or similar has been mentioned i didnt fine comb through the thread before posting
I don’t see any reason to force someone to another location, this sorta thing would hurt casuals more anyhow since a power-gamer will just set up a rotation of locations. I personally like finding a good hunting spot and working it for a few hours gaining both XP and any harvesting or crafting stuff in the area, But if I had to move around a lot just for the sake of it, then the game would feel as mechanical as doing a quest, and I hate doing quests.
HemlockReaper said:I really Hope VR Decides not to Show the information on who’s first at anything, That kinda thing while I’m sure is a nice warm fuzzy feeling to those who manage to achieve it, only serves to encourage Players to blow past content at record speeds all in the hopes to get a label, that in the end has nothing to do with the playing a group centric MMO and everything to do with narcissistic trophy hunting.
With that mentality, they should just do away with all titles in general. I don't see how a "title" will encourage anybody to blow through content. If someone is going to race to 50, they're doing it for reasons other than a title. If I saw someone with the title "Master Forger" I wouldn't drop what I was doing to head to the crafting stations and max out a tradeskill. And it's not like the first to level cap ever got an official title anyways. It's generally an unofficial accomplishment and as far as it not having anything to do with the group centric theme of the game, how is that true? Since grouping will be the most efficient form of XP, it only reinforces the need to group. I don't understand why someone racing to 50 is labeled a "narcissistic trophy hunter" ... if you aren't going to the party, must you insist on pooping on mine? If a ranger makes it a goal to be the first to finish a ranger solo quest line that awards a title, are all other rangers going to be envious and view him as a "narcissistic trophy hunter" too? These are my cheerios ... seriously, stop aiming that thing near my bowl of cheerios.
Are we forgetting that if you camp an area for a long period of time, eventually the exp gains will be less and less any way as you level? Yellow mob (couple levels above your current level) white mob same level, blue mob one level lower, green mob ..last level you gain exps from (and less according to how many levels below your level) grey mob no exps, and whatever it might drop at that particular level. That's the way it worked in EQ, I don't know if this system will reappear in Pantheon, but it could I suppose. In the end, unless you're just camping for drops, you will need to move on to something that gives exps again. And vacate the area for someone who might possibly need that camp for quests or whatever. Personally I am not for putting in rigorous systems to combat levelling quickly to 50. People have always done this...its all about playstyle ..to each their own. Again the only thing I have an objection to is blocking content for others. And powerlevelling companies which most times tie into RMT.
Jimmayus said:
Pyratt thank you for agreeing with me. To play devil's advocate, the the problem most people will highlight is the problem with "zerging" smaller targets to trivialize their difficulty. This is a valid concern. To that end I it's important to examine the benefits of modern solutions (such as raid caps and tagging monsters to the party/raid who spawned it, etc.) to avoid repeating mistakes.
People have brought up excellent ideas in this thread about epic questlines and dungeons, etc. I know FFXI players loved that in the Chains of Promathia expansion you had something like 15 group level story mode fights to unlock a variety of content zones. People formed statics specifically for the purpose of clearing these fights, and often it took groups a month or so to finish them all. I believe this is the proper type of way to deal with story (not raids), as it forms a core non-raid part of the game.
Likewise, you can avoid scalability issues vis-a-vis no enforced minimum raid sizes by similarly making sure that the boss is not the only point of the raid. I believe this is a problem that modern mmos introduced by over-emphasizing the importance of large-scale fights.
Really, at the end of the day, I'd just prefer not to be totally screwed if somebody can't come to raid that night. Instead of the incredibly bad feeling of "we have 24 people instead of 26 people, guess raid is cancelled for tonight sorry boys", you can instead turn to your team and say "alright we got 21 tonight, let's clear out Geraldo's force pops for [~12 avg people world boss], see if [3 18~24 person min raid bosses] are up in [traditional boss rush raid zone] and then after that maybe go to [Jimmayus' SUPER GREAT DYNAMIS IDEA ZONE #3] and hit up a few farming areas. We got like 4 people who need that one Mystical Ranger's Codpiece, so let's try to hit up [3~12 man mini-events that pop mini-bosses] and otherwise just hang out in this area for a few hours till we run out of cheetos and mountain dew. Maybe once we only have a few we'll help Brunhilda and Lester get [6-person instanced story boss fight of medium difficulty that flags them for boss rush raid zone] done."
That's a super long example, but the point is that the group is no longer screwed out of doing anything by the arbitrariness of rigid enforced minimums. Add in crafting, some even smaller named spawns that drop materials for climate augments (fur lining for cold weather, etc.) and other long-form quests and suddenly "raiding" is a flexible, dynamic thing instead of all the rigidity of modern games.
edit: Thank you oneADSeven for the kind words. I like your structure and I wanted to ask you: what do you think of suggesting to the general group here the concept of BCNM/KSNM/ENMs? Personally I think they're a fantastic (especially once Faf/KB/Aspid forcepop items dropped from KSNM99s) addition, but they involve some minor battlefield instancing so I'm loathe to advocate for it.
I would be in favor of all of that. I never got to experience KSNM or ENM but if they're anything like the BCNM's that I do remember, they would be awesome. My understanding is that Pantheon will stray away from instancing as much as possible, but will still utilize it as needed. I would argue that having difficult group content like BCNM's should be a core feature of the game. As I have admitted several times, I have the hardcore raider mentality burned into my soul. It's unfortunate that for me, "raid" and "challenge" go hand in hand, whereas "group" falls more in line with "boring" or "monotonous." The biggest issue I see is that tons of group content was made irrelevant due to the maximum reward potential of each zone. When entry level raid gear is better than anything you can acquire from grouping in even the most difficult of dungeons, there is no real progression opportunity when doing group level content. It's usually more of a "I have to beat these 4 dungeons in this specific order to advance such and such quest." The dungeon experience itself is nothing more than a means to an end. You aren't having fun while doing it, you just want to get it over with. Raiding on the other hand would always provide that extra layer of excitement (even if the zone itself was boring) because generally, several people in your raid would be receiving some sort of upgrade every time you beat a raid zone.
I think it's important to put a clear perspective on this. A lot of people will make the argument of "If you play end-game content just for loot then you're playing for the wrong reasons and not actually having fun." While this can be true to a certain extent, it's important to note why most players care so much about loot in the first place. It's not the item itself that is important to us. We know that no matter how cool an item is, we'll end up upgrading it eventually. The real emotional attachment to loot isn't the fancy graphic that we see (ok sometimes it is) but rather the upgrade in power (progression) that it represents for our character. This is why the leveling process can be so much fun when a game first comes out; it's the most rapid "succession of progression" that you'll probably ever see in the game. It's basically a 50 level grind where the player experiences consistent bursts of permanent power every few levels or so as they learn new abilities.
If I was offered the choice at level 25 to choose between a full set of "Enchanted Plate Armor" or adding a fairly weak AoE attack as a new ability, I would choose the AoE ability every single time. Seems like a pretty obvious choice right? The AoE ability would benefit me in the long run, so it makes sense to take the permanent upgrade. Now let's say that the set of "Enchanted Plate Armor" provides a 25% XP boost while you have it equipped. Would you rather take the weak AoE attack that will forever be in your arsenel, or get to max level 25% faster (let's even say the armor scales to 50)? This choice becomes a little more difficult because I would essentially be trading a fairly weak ability for an express ticket on the train of "Rapid Succession of Progression." Personally, I would still take the fairly weak AoE ability simply because I'm a min/maxer and I'd have a conspiracy theory in my head telling me that this ability has the potential to make the .1% difference on an end-game boss fight. As someone who has always strived to be one of the first to level cap, I will tell you now that I will gladly take a slower XP route if it's going to provide a more optimal long-term benefit for my character.
Upon reaching max level, the train of rapid "Succession of Progression" has finally come to a stop. Once you stop learning new spells, your ability to increase in power drops dramatically. If there isn't some sort of AA System or Spell Mastery System, your only real option to progress now is through gear. This moment right here is what I think the development team needs to focus on the most as it creates a serious conundrum. If upgrading gear becomes the only way to increase in power, all gear prior to this point is now irrelevant. We trade rapid "Succession of Progression" for "Best Gear? Go Here!" and want to formulate a plan to obtain BiS gear the easiest/fastest way possible. If that means bypassing an entire dungeon or quest line, some people will do just that. I personally find it very difficult to justify playing through Dungeon B if Dungeon F has a more optimal growth in power incentive that would otherwise nullify anything I can acquire from Dungeon B.
I think creating content and acclimation thresholds for all resists in the game can help with this. There is no clear BiS path to take. The longer relevance can be maintained for any specific area, the better. Creating meaningful progression opportunities through a variety of formats will slow down the idea of certain content becoming irrelevant. As Jimmayus recommended, this can be accomplished all while providing a more enjoyable playing experience for the players. I 100% support the idea of end-game content being a balanced mixture of grouping, questing, raiding, and even some solo/crafting aspects. Destroy the idea of "Pure BiS" gear and suddenly, people will make it their mission to have "BiS Fire, BiS Ice, BiS Poison" etc sets of gear. I'll provide a great example on how this can be accomplished.
Siliskor was a raid encounter in EQOA where having the right combination of gear/buffs made all the difference in the world for those trying to beat it. It lowered your max HP to about 700, hit with physical damage, and had several poison attacks/AE's. I remember tanking it at level 44 and BEATING it while other tanks at level 50 were getting slaughtered. This is because I had a rare level 44 breastplate that had the highest AC of any BP in the game. No other stats. So while that BP didn't have a lot of utility in other areas of the game, it was considered BiS for this particular fight. Combine that with full sets of crafted poison jewelry(No other tank would be caught dead wearing this jewelry), other plate armor that had high AC and agility (AGI helped with dodging) and a group composition that focused on wards, AC, agility, and poison resist ... and there you have it. A level 44 halfling warrior tanking an end-game raid boss because of the "perfect" set-up for that specific fight. The level 50 tanks that kept dying over and over were wearing the standard "BiS" gear that had high base HP, STR/STA, etc. Beating that raid boss like that ... as a level 44, that felt like an EPIC accomplishment, and I didn't need to rush to level 50 to get it done. As a matter of fact, my guild told me that it was up and asked how cool it would be if I could tank it at level 44. Having already known the encounter mechanics (tanked it and killed it on my prior level 50 warrior) I knew that I had a decent chance to tank it because of the unique set of armor in my possession that was particularly powerful for that specific encounter. So me and the pit crew (3 necros powerleveling) took a break from the XP grind and set out to go and slay a Dragon.
Again ... please, destroy the standard "BiS" gear idea. I'd like to have various sets of gear that each have their own special purpose. By doing this, you can populate more areas of the game with more meaningful opportunities of progression. It also removes the notion of everybody wearing the same gear which seriously gets old. The thing I loved about EQOA was that people couldn't inspect you to see what you were wearing. You can only imagine how those level 50 tanks felt when they saw me tanking it at 44. They had no idea what I was wearing.
oneADseven said:Canno said:oneADseven said:Canno said:Didn't read all 7 pages but: Nothing will keep people from blasting to max level. Even in the tougher eras of EQ people went for max level asap, maxed out crafting asap - sometimes even sharing accounts to do so (being online 24h a day and active kinda tips that off ;) ).
In terms of what VR can do? Nothing. Anything they put it would hinder regular players unfairly at some point. Only suggestion I could give is not rewarding server firsts related to levelling (levels, crafting levels, etc). Let's face it, no one really remembers server firsts, more so level related in any other games - it fades from memory as unimportant. Now, server firsts for content is a different matter (EQ's Sleeper for instance) - reward for content based achievements.
MMO trends lately has been to make levelling easy and develop for end game content, it's way easier (and cost effective) to develop for one group of people and not several. IE: Make content for level 45-50, not 1-10,10-20, 20-30,30-40,40-50.
One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Seems a bit over-zealous when you make a comment that includes "everyone" or "no one" ...
I had the 2'nd level 70 worldwide in EQ2 and I'll never forget the ranger in NPU another server that got there first ... this was over 10 years ago. I'll also never forget the cleric "Redduce" on Diren's Hold Server EQOA. They were the first level 50 on the server, and I remember this from about 15 years ago. I'll also never forget the enchanter Ninikbik, who I barely beat out to become the first level 50 enchanter on server. You may not have remembered details like these because they weren't important to you. As someone who has always been one of the first to max level on a server wide level or worldwide level, I'll tell you that I do remember these things. And I know for a fact that plenty of the people I was guilded with remember it as well. Our guild had the majority of server first classes to level cap in every expansion, and there is no coincidence that we also discovered 90% of the raid loot(if you were first to loot something on a server in EQ2, it would show as a guild event that could be saved.) Our guild history showed every single epic weapon discovery, first boss kill, etc and we saved that progress for YEARS as a reminder of the reign of dominance our guild maintained on our server.
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Ah there's always one... "no one" and "everyone" is a generalization and not a literal. It's a language nuance. Like saying "hey guys" to a mixed gender crowd - it's not literally saying hello to just the guys.
But congrats on the record keeping.
Are your multiple references of the word "nothing" or "anything" also supposed to be interpreted as generalizations, or am I missing the pattern with this language nuance you speak of? The problem with generalizing with a word like "no one" in the same sentence that you cite their accomplishments as unimportant is that you're downplaying the thoughts and opinions of said "no one's" when you make a comment like that.
Is "Ah there's always one" also a generalization, or do you realize that there are actually a ton of people just like me, which reinforces your first point that "nothing" can be done to stop people from blowing through content? For the sake of things not being taken out of context maybe it would be better if you used more selective wording. When you over generalize your statements there is a good chance that something you say can be misconstrued.
*sigh*
A ton of people like you. Gee, that's a generalization - how are you measuring that? By actual weight because it would be a relatively small number to reach a ton. At an average of, say, 200lbs it would be 10 people - hardly a large amount considering the population that plays MMOs.
I feel no need to use more specific language. 88.7% of people understand generalization are not 100%. This happens all the time. An article comes out stating something has an issue and there's comments saying they've never had that issue - anecdotal.
My point still stands, people in general do not remember server firsts - it's why we're debating language and not merit.
People will blow through content, it's just the nature of the beast. It's another form of challange. Whatever is put in people will find a way and it's best not to cater to them. Game history is littered with examples of "players will take X amount of time to accomplish this!" followed shortly by players accomplishing it in a much, much shorter time. It's a numbers game. Dev teams are a small size in comparison to the number of players that will be looking for every single edge and advantage they can get - no amount (generalization warning) of dev knowledge and planning can prepare for that and it's unreasonable to think they can. If they're fast they can close some of the loopholes they didn't think of, but players will adapt.
"it's why we're debating language and not merit."
Nah, you're the one that turned this into a language debate when I called you out for what you said. "Let's face it, no one really remembers server firsts, more so level related in any other games - it fades from memory as unimportant."
You belittled the achievements of players that DO care and then tried to mask the intent behind a facade of language nuance and over generalization. Regardless, I have no desire to further debate language or merit with you. I just made a meaningful post less than 10 minutes ago that is 100% on point with why this thread was started. Let's not derail the discussion with further talk of language nuances or the definition of generalizing.
oneADseven said: ...Again ... please, destroy the standard "BiS" gear idea. I'd like to have various sets of gear that each have their own special purpose. By doing this, you can populate more areas of the game with more meaningful opportunities of progression. It also removes the notion of everybody wearing the same gear which seriously gets old. The thing I loved about EQOA was that people couldn't inspect you to see what you were wearing. You can only imagine how those level 50 tanks felt when they saw me tanking it at 44. They had no idea what I was wearing.
I have seen no options on the topic of changing loot/gear systems presented on these forums that are generally supported by the community. It would seem the majority wants BiS, static drops, static loot tables, and every other terrible thing directly translated/copied from EQ1.
To suggest otherwise will immediately draw the defending denizens to the ramparts to shout down any such fun, challenging or innovative ideas into obscurity.
Sadly, it also appears to be the current design goals of the development team to have exactly these same features as well. And before Kilsin jumps in here, I'll rephrase that to say: There is no public statement in any video or post, from VR to date, that says they will move away from those features/mechanics (BiS, static drops, static loot tables). The only glimmer of a mention is that it may be possible to customize gear to get one extra stat point, if you want to make the gear no-trade after that. But that is a minor speed bump on the road compared to the massive design decisions like personal loot in addition to static loot, permanent buffs, customizable skill/spell effects from gear, and more.
You're completely correct, though, oneADseven, that daily tangible personal power progression is what keeps many MMO players playing ~forever. No-Trade Raiding is what keeps some/many people playing EQ1 TLP and P99. For others, it's the constant striving for AA's through grouping. Pantheon has not revealed any details beyond the existence of the progeny system, to address the issue of "now what?" when you reach max level.
Gearing up, doubtless, will play a part, but for the moment, that means perma camping a static spawn for BiS items. Until VR dispells these myths in the FAQ, they will persist, or turn out to be true. Up to this point, I've found VR's statements on the topic of "now what?" at max level to be vague and naive. But maybe they have a secret silver bullet or will eventually roll out AA's, who knows?
Personally, I'm in favor of an LDON 2.0 style gear system at launch, tied in with acclimation, colored mana and NPC guilds. But that's not a popular idea, nor is anything remotely similar. :)
How about a lot of extremely long and cryptic quests resulting in traveling the world multiple times over or having high level mobs invading zones of all levels at times randomly. This would be another thing that brings high level players back to low level areas.
UnknownQuantity said:How about a lot of extremely long and cryptic quests resulting in traveling the world multiple times over or having high level mobs invading zones of all levels at times randomly. This would be another thing that brings high level players back to low level areas.
Like the agro griffons in the Commonlands.
CanadinaXegony said:UnknownQuantity said:How about a lot of extremely long and cryptic quests resulting in traveling the world multiple times over or having high level mobs invading zones of all levels at times randomly. This would be another thing that brings high level players back to low level areas.
Like the agro griffons in the Commonlands.
Yes, but even better. Say you had a dragon with a home in permafrost, but it decided to occasionally go out and have some fun killing people in the commonlands. You could have a raid with people of all different levels contributing. High level people rush to the zone to assist. I suppose it might get boring after a while even if it's random, but everything gets boring after a while.
I feel the same way about having long quests where you travel the world and possible have to get hard to find items from hard to find mobs. The mobs may be in one place, but decide to move somewhere else for some reason like they had a fight with their clan.
I appologize for posting this in the wrong thread. I had throught it was the one about raiding and alternatives to raiding.
WHY BLASTING TO MAX LEVEL MEANS LITTLE - in a Brad game.
VanguardSoH, Brad's last MMO, gives us a decent example of what might be in wait for those blasting to max level.
In Vanguards beginning and early years, after true raid content was included, the best gear came from raid boss drops.
The raid Boss fights were very complex and difficult. And there was no instancing, no lock-out timers. the strategies to defeat them was carefully kept secret.
Loot was rare, and Bind on Pickup. Bosses generally had loot tables with 6-20 items and would only drop 2-5 items generally.
Highly organized and skilled guilds could monopolize raid bosses and thus all the elite gear. And that gear was necessary to move onto the next level of raid bosses.
Being Max level in Vanguard really meant nothing, other than you were max level. If you were not raiding at the highest level you did not have the best gear.
LIFE IN THE ELITE RAIDING GUILD
The odd thing about being in an elite guild in VG, raiding hard-core was all you did - period. The rest of the game dropped away and your time was consummed by raiding and dominating raid targets.
Nothing that dropped from any other dungeon, or quest line was better than raid gear. Money meant very little as nothing you could purchase was better than what you got from raiding. I remember having hundreds of plat in the bank, that I made selling 1000's of housing bricks before I joined BotS. And I was a bit miffed there was simply nothing to actually spend it on.
BotS locked down all raid targets, all bosses. The guild was highly regimented and would raid like clockwork 4-5 hours a night, 5-6 days a week. You had to be highly skilled to make the cut. This was a serious shock to me when I joined. I thought I knew how to play my class. I did not.
In my first raids, after I had acquired some decent gear and weapons (by going negative DKP I will mention), my damage output as a Ranger was typically lowest in the raid, lower than the Clerics that mostly healed. I won't bore you with the gory details but I did manage to fairly quickly pull a Rocky moment and turned my performance around to become one of the top DPS contributors.
The point I am trying to making is that BotS at that time was no joke, and killing raid bosses in VG was not easy. Everyone had to be skilled and know their jobs. Many boss fights would come down to the bitter end. This was no zerg-fest. Simply being max level with Best-in-class gear did not cut it.
BotS was essentially the only guild to have flying mounts when they were first released. And that went on for a long time. With no raid lock-out timers we could 100% control the spawns. And BotS was the only guild that could take down Kotasoth, the key to acquiring a flying mount in VG early days.
I realized after a bit that I essentially never saw my old friends, rarely ever did pug's anymore, rarely had to use the bank, never crafted anymore, never did anything else but login, raid, logout. The rest of the VG game had largely faded away.
But, I would actually play more than most of the rest of BotS during off-hours, so I would be online during the day, mornings. Oddly though, typically there would be zero guild members on. I would get tells from people wondering if BotS had disbanded. I would tell them check back at 4pm EST. Sure enough most every day, 5-10 minutes before 4pm, 40-50 BotS would log in immediately - either heading to the first target, or already be there.
THEN CAME GRIND2WIN - OOPS PARTY OVER
But all of this domination and end-game life changed when complaints of raid guild monopolizing content were answered by lock-out timers, and then, eventually a dumbing down of VG with the Grind2Win content with the addition of KDQ.
With KDQ VG switched from a skill based MMO to a Grind based MMO. It was a sad day for MMOs to be sure, but it did open elite gear for everyone now that simply had the perseverence(or time) to put in endless hours grinding.
KDQ had some nice options, such as adding some spice back into crafting. But what it unfortunately also did was destroy the economy but introducing ultra rare drops that were not BoP and sold for crazy amounts of money, driving massive inflation.
SO
If Pantheon turns out to be a simple Grind2Win type game (such as AA, BDO, etc), then yes, blasting to max level will be very beneficial. But if Pantheon turns out to be more like early Vanguard, all bets are off. Blast to max all you want becasue without any skills you will not get anywhere.
oneADseven said:HemlockReaper said:I really Hope VR Decides not to Show the information on who’s first at anything, That kinda thing while I’m sure is a nice warm fuzzy feeling to those who manage to achieve it, only serves to encourage Players to blow past content at record speeds all in the hopes to get a label, that in the end has nothing to do with the playing a group centric MMO and everything to do with narcissistic trophy hunting.
With that mentality, they should just do away with all titles in general. I don't see how a "title" will encourage anybody to blow through content. If someone is going to race to 50, they're doing it for reasons other than a title. If I saw someone with the title "Master Forger" I wouldn't drop what I was doing to head to the crafting stations and max out a tradeskill. And it's not like the first to level cap ever got an official title anyways. It's generally an unofficial accomplishment and as far as it not having anything to do with the group centric theme of the game, how is that true? Since grouping will be the most efficient form of XP, it only reinforces the need to group. I don't understand why someone racing to 50 is labeled a "narcissistic trophy hunter" ... if you aren't going to the party, must you insist on pooping on mine? If a ranger makes it a goal to be the first to finish a ranger solo quest line that awards a title, are all other rangers going to be envious and view him as a "narcissistic trophy hunter" too? These are my cheerios ... seriously, stop aiming that thing near my bowl of cheerios.
Giving out titles, or in this case Notifications does encourage some players to try to obtain it. The difference between a “master Forger” Title and being “first” is that everyone can become a Master Forger if they choose, and at what ever pace they desire. Becoming first to do something is a one time Title for that event, no one else can be the first to kill The dragon of unholy flatulence if you or your group manage to do it, This by its nature makes it a Title or claim that is speed sensitive, and restricted from others once its been done.
Now I don't care if you or anyone is the first to do anything, I’m only suggestion VR should not encourage it by Notifications, such as the System message on the posted Screenshot above.
zewtastic said:...snip...
Being Max level in Vanguard really meant nothing, other than you were max level. If you were not raiding at the highest level you did not have the best gear.
...snip...
If Pantheon turns out to be a simple Grind2Win type game (such as AA, BDO, etc), then yes, blasting to max level will be very beneficial. But if Pantheon turns out to be more like early Vanguard, all bets are off. Blast to max all you want becasue without any skills you will not get anywhere.
Vanguard launched in Jan. 2007 and the first raid dungeon (APW) wasn't added to the test server until Dec. 2007. By that time, all of the hardcore players had long quit playing the game b/c there was nothing to do. So I'm not sure why you're using "early Vanguard" as an example of what should be done in Pantheon. In "early Vanguard", those that blasted to max level soon realized there were no quests past level 40 and quit playing.
In regards to your point about max level in VG meaning nothing and raiding being so important... You had to be max level in order to raid in Vanguard.
EDIT: Fixed wrong year, thanks Zewtastic & CanadinaXegony :)
Wellspring said:zewtastic said:...snip...
Being Max level in Vanguard really meant nothing, other than you were max level. If you were not raiding at the highest level you did not have the best gear.
...snip...
If Pantheon turns out to be a simple Grind2Win type game (such as AA, BDO, etc), then yes, blasting to max level will be very beneficial. But if Pantheon turns out to be more like early Vanguard, all bets are off. Blast to max all you want becasue without any skills you will not get anywhere.
Vanguard launched in Jan. 2017, and the first raid dungeon (APW) wasn't added to the test server until Dec. 2017. By that time, all of the hardcore players had long quit playing the game b/c there was nothing to do. So I'm not sure why you're using "early Vanguard" as an example of what should be done in Pantheon. In "early Vanguard", those that blasted to max level soon realized there were no quests past level 40 and quit playing.
In regards to your point about max level in VG meaning nothing and raiding being so important... You had to be max level in order to raid in Vanguard.
I'll ignore the dates, those are simple typo's. It is true VG had a very rocky launch, no raid content until many months after initial launch, major economy issues with a bad dupe hack. I left for a period of 6 months myself.
But VG soldiered on and yes many months after initial launch a huge raid dungeon of epic scale was released which ushered in a new age for VG.
Many players did leave VG early on to not return, but many did return along with many new players and VG continued on for many years.
After APW (the first major raid dungeon) was live, many more raid targets were introduced and VG enjoyed it's golden period with much of the early problems a distant memory.
This kind of process is the case for many MMOs as they evolve over the years, few MMO years later are what they were at launch.
There are a few things that keep a player from blasting to max level in my opinion:
I know for me, being captivated by the world and feeling compelled to explore is a major component, and especially feeling like I'm rewarded for exploring. Leveling has to be slow-paced, and furthermore, the most dismaying and demoralizing thing for me in a game is out-leveling content. I'm a completionist, and I actually don't want to feel the need to blast to max; when I outlevel content, I feel like I've already "lost" in some senses, and I might as well just blast to max and return. As such, personally, I would love to see a level-lock feature like in EQ2 where I could right click my experience bar and turn off experience gains.
But yeah, I can't recall how many times I was super excited to do a challenging lower level dungeon only to find that I out-leveled it, killing all interest and just pushing me to blast to the top where I didn't have to worry anymore about out-leveling.
In short: give me reasons to stay lower level, and make it easy to do so, that way I can experience the low-level content I want to.
oneADseven said:I think creating content and acclimation thresholds for all resists in the game can help with this. There is no clear BiS path to take. The longer relevance can be maintained for any specific area, the better. Creating meaningful progression opportunities through a variety of formats will slow down the idea of certain content becoming irrelevant. As Jimmayus recommended, this can be accomplished all while providing a more enjoyable playing experience for the players. I 100% support the idea of end-game content being a balanced mixture of grouping, questing, raiding, and even some solo/crafting aspects. Destroy the idea of "Pure BiS" gear and suddenly, people will make it their mission to have "BiS Fire, BiS Ice, BiS Poison" etc sets of gear. I'll provide a great example on how this can be accomplished.
Siliskor was a raid encounter in EQOA where having the right combination of gear/buffs made all the difference in the world for those trying to beat it. It lowered your max HP to about 700, hit with physical damage, and had several poison attacks/AE's. I remember tanking it at level 44 and BEATING it while other tanks at level 50 were getting slaughtered. This is because I had a rare level 44 breastplate that had the highest AC of any BP in the game. No other stats. So while that BP didn't have a lot of utility in other areas of the game, it was considered BiS for this particular fight. Combine that with full sets of crafted poison jewelry(No other tank would be caught dead wearing this jewelry), other plate armor that had high AC and agility (AGI helped with dodging) and a group composition that focused on wards, AC, agility, and poison resist ... and there you have it. A level 44 halfling warrior tanking an end-game raid boss because of the "perfect" set-up for that specific fight. The level 50 tanks that kept dying over and over were wearing the standard "BiS" gear that had high base HP, STR/STA, etc. Beating that raid boss like that ... as a level 44, that felt like an EPIC accomplishment, and I didn't need to rush to level 50 to get it done. As a matter of fact, my guild told me that it was up and asked how cool it would be if I could tank it at level 44. Having already known the encounter mechanics (tanked it and killed it on my prior level 50 warrior) I knew that I had a decent chance to tank it because of the unique set of armor in my possession that was particularly powerful for that specific encounter. So me and the pit crew (3 necros powerleveling) took a break from the XP grind and set out to go and slay a Dragon.
Again ... please, destroy the standard "BiS" gear idea. I'd like to have various sets of gear that each have their own special purpose. By doing this, you can populate more areas of the game with more meaningful opportunities of progression. It also removes the notion of everybody wearing the same gear which seriously gets old. The thing I loved about EQOA was that people couldn't inspect you to see what you were wearing. You can only imagine how those level 50 tanks felt when they saw me tanking it at 44. They had no idea what I was wearing.
Completely agree with this... and loved the example. In a way, it creates its own "quest" without actually having a quest; i.e. finding the right setup to deal with the encounter. I highlighted the part I really want to see happen. Of course, the only way this happens is if that content is difficult/challenging as well. You're right people will find the path of least resistance (myself included most times) and the posts concerning "raid" gear from non-raid sources are apprehensive because of this fact. We have yet to see a system that doesn't funnel everything toward raiding, hopefully Pantheon can break this mold. In my opinion, here are ways I think that can work:
1. Never add conveniences to crafting/trading/classes that you wouldn't add to raiding. This is a key idea that would help everyone who's hooked on the current raid-first ideology of the past two decades. For instance, the bazaar/auction house doesn't help the person who enjoys trading, it helps the people who don't and adds convenience for them. Same with crafting. Most crafting systems focus on doing large amounts of easy combines for levelling because it's meant for convenience, not for the person who puts crafting first. Taking unique class skills/spells and spreading them out to other classes/npcs. Plenty more examples that carry this idea out.
2. Make raiding less vertical... a broader set of raids, with fewer tiers. Will help alleviate the need for instancing/locking and give more varied content.
3. Dungeon and overland zones with appeal for all different size groups... several posts/discussions about how to do this. Love the one about the overland zone with a mix of 3/6/12/24-man content. Could apply tis same principle to dungeons. It's perfectly reasonable to have some of the best loot come from these avenues, just need the difficulty/challenge level to match the reward. Ironically, they could take a page from Destiny (even though it's a FPS) on this... they have some great 3/6-man content.
How you go about implementing this stuff, I'm not sure. Would take a lot more brainpower than my 5-min post to address that. The devs certainly have their work cut-out for them. I like some of the new approaches they've taking so far and they have plenty of experience at this point to be encouraged.
I've always been a casual raider, in the sense of never pushing hard or raiding more than a couple nights a week for a few hours. If the raiding were to be open world as EQ and as described above in VG then raids without lockout timers/really fast respawn would be a complete nightmare/unobtainable to me even if I wanted to do them. You can't schedule a raid night with friends because the spawns are typically random or they are on known timers. In either case, as described above, most servers would likely end up with one or two hardcore guilds dominating the raids jumping timer to timer. I'm all for raids being hard and taking skill, but if they are to also have some of the best loot then I think more than 1-5% of the server should have access to them.
HemlockReaper said:oneADseven said:HemlockReaper said:I really Hope VR Decides not to Show the information on who’s first at anything, That kinda thing while I’m sure is a nice warm fuzzy feeling to those who manage to achieve it, only serves to encourage Players to blow past content at record speeds all in the hopes to get a label, that in the end has nothing to do with the playing a group centric MMO and everything to do with narcissistic trophy hunting.
With that mentality, they should just do away with all titles in general. I don't see how a "title" will encourage anybody to blow through content. If someone is going to race to 50, they're doing it for reasons other than a title. If I saw someone with the title "Master Forger" I wouldn't drop what I was doing to head to the crafting stations and max out a tradeskill. And it's not like the first to level cap ever got an official title anyways. It's generally an unofficial accomplishment and as far as it not having anything to do with the group centric theme of the game, how is that true? Since grouping will be the most efficient form of XP, it only reinforces the need to group. I don't understand why someone racing to 50 is labeled a "narcissistic trophy hunter" ... if you aren't going to the party, must you insist on pooping on mine? If a ranger makes it a goal to be the first to finish a ranger solo quest line that awards a title, are all other rangers going to be envious and view him as a "narcissistic trophy hunter" too? These are my cheerios ... seriously, stop aiming that thing near my bowl of cheerios.
Giving out titles, or in this case Notifications does encourage some players to try to obtain it. The difference between a “master Forger” Title and being “first” is that everyone can become a Master Forger if they choose, and at what ever pace they desire. Becoming first to do something is a one time Title for that event, no one else can be the first to kill The dragon of unholy flatulence if you or your group manage to do it, This by its nature makes it a Title or claim that is speed sensitive, and restricted from others once its been done.
Now I don't care if you or anyone is the first to do anything, I’m only suggestion VR should not encourage it by Notifications, such as the System message on the posted Screenshot above.
I disagree. There is a unique sense of satisfaction when it comes to being the first player to "discover" something. That's why there are famous explorers/inventors/scientists/doctors in our history whose names will never be forgotten. There is nothing wrong with "restricting" titles by tying them into one-time accomplishments. Imagine telling Neil Armstrong that although he was the first person to walk on the moon, he could never refer to himself as such or wear any type of badge that highlighted the accomplishment.
For the record, I'm not advocating for titles to the first of each class to level cap. That was always an unofficial accomplishment. I am, however, advocating for "events" that can be saved in guild history. When raid bosses or named NPC's are killed for the first time, it would be cool to see an event in the guild log that can show the achievement. When an item is "discovered" or looted for the first time, I'd like to see a denotation in the guild log that can help commemorate that achievement.
I understand why some players can feel sensitive about "titles" only being awarded to the first person to accomplish something and I'm fine with those not being added to the game. I think an "event" log shown in guild history would be sufficient as a means to preserve those type of accomplishments.
Iksar said:I've always been a casual raider, in the sense of never pushing hard or raiding more than a couple nights a week for a few hours. If the raiding were to be open world as EQ and as described above in VG then raids without lockout timers/really fast respawn would be a complete nightmare/unobtainable to me even if I wanted to do them. You can't schedule a raid night with friends because the spawns are typically random or they are on known timers. In either case, as described above, most servers would likely end up with one or two hardcore guilds dominating the raids jumping timer to timer. I'm all for raids being hard and taking skill, but if they are to also have some of the best loot then I think more than 1-5% of the server should have access to them.
Raiding in EQ was the same as VG, meaning there were premium raid targets that top guilds raced to, and dominated. Since most raid spawns were random, guilds had alts/spys camped at key locations to monitor for the spawns, and when the word went out about a named spawn, the race was on.
The reason EQ moved past the point where uber guilds were dominating bosses was simply the slow buildup of many, many raid targets and a hierarchy of targets. As new raid bosses were added with better drops, those secondary raid targets became available for "casual" guilds to attempt.
I still appreciate a game based on skill rather than simply grind and p2w. If that is what you also like then you have to accept this model of competition. Those willing to work hard, spend the hours, follow rigorous rules will generally come to better loot. But that said, high-end raiding quickly became a job. It was a lot of work, and you did not always get rewarded.
The math on getting items from doing raids is very poor. If bosses only drop a couple items, and your raids are 20-40 players you could wait weeks before you might see any gear reward for your class/race.
I recall when Fengrot Foulbreath was first introduced to VG, BotS spent literaly weeks working out the strategy to kill it. That means 24 players 4-5 hours a night, 4-5 days a week. No kills, no loot. It was mind numbing.
And even after successfully working out a strategy, it was still an extremely hard boss at level 50, and if players made even a minor slipup, it would blow the fight. Much of this changed when VG raised max level to 55 and added KDQ. All of a sudden all the existing bosses became vastly easier for many player.
But I will note, in BotS defense, when any other guild wanted to try an attempt on a raid boss we were at, they were always given that opportunity. So a lot of the negative gossip I had heard about BotS before I joined turned out to be wrong, but such is the nature of people I guess.
Vandraad said:What will be available is the best item for this particular slot for this particular level. It will be up to you to not only find it but determine if it is the best item for you for that level for the content you are confronting. Remember the developers have said time and time again that gear will be situational. What is best for one area or one type of content will not be the best somewhere else. Your spear may be great against an armored orc but will be useless against that skeleton. That cold resist gear will not protect you in the depths of a volcano dungeon.
But what will stop players blasting to max level? Nothing. Some, like me, will do it regardless. It is what I enjoy doing. It is how I enjoy playing.
Same here, i love the race to max level on the server. its why i buy most MMOs just to get to max level fast because the leveling race is alot of fun for me! i think this time you will have to sleep once or twice before you reach max level but im going to go hard!
After that i will go back and farm some stuff i might have missed and start working on proffesions and so on.. I just like getting max level before i start doing that stuff even tho i could do proffessions and maybe get that cold resist gear on my way to max level..
zewtastic said: But if Pantheon turns out to be more like early Vanguard, all bets are off. Blast to max all you want becasue without any skills you will not get anywhere.
I agree with just about everything you said. Except this. Any truely good player can pick up any class in any game and learn to play it well in no time. Hell I powerleveled a rogue tank in Rift in under 3 days and the day after was MTing HK when it launched with pretty crap gear. Yet still managed to down bosses. So saying that you need to take your time in order to learn how to play the class maybe true for some but it is not for everyone. Most of the people who will blast to cap are the ones who have spent many many years doing so and pushing themselves to be the best. Those people won't need months of time to learn.
