Personally, as long as the leveling takes at LEAST as long as classic EQ then I will be happy. A little longer is fine too so long as the leveling content and community are top notch, I know there were a few dungeons in EQ that I was sad to outlevel but always happy to return to with alts.
On top of that, I think if the prodigy system is done well enough then your first 50 isn't really the end. But I am having a very hard time thinking of ways to make it enticing enough if it doesn't give any bonus power to a character.
EDIT:
I just don't see how people can say that EQ was the epitome of a leveling experience and then advocate for time based XP caps.
Regardless of what the leveling pace is tuned for for the average player, it's going to take a much shorter time for a small portion of the playerbase. Should there or should there not be hard restrictions on that? That's the crux of the argument, and my personal opinion is no.
Putting mechanics into the game to artificially reduce the discrepancy of pace between average players and hardcore players isn't really acceptable in my opinion. On that same train of thought, trying to enforce the experience you want as an individual on other players is not only kind of unacceptable.
The genre of MMOs is roughly 20 years old. If we can't agree that certain experiences can't really be reproduced due to that much experience, then I don't know what to say. I personally don't want to hit the level cap in less than a month. However, that means that average players will probably not be hitting the level cap for much, much, much longer.
Where is the middle ground that gives everyone a good experience? Are there really thousands of people ready to throw money at VR so they can spend a year hitting the level cap? I just don't see it. I think it's very far removed from reality.
I have removed several posts for breaching forum guidelines, including personal attacks, back seat moderating, quoted posts that were removed and opinion based arguments, I have issued several friendly warnings and they continue to be ignored, there will be no more, this thread needs to remain in topic otherwise it will be closed.
If you have an issue with someone or the content of their post, take it to PMs and discuss it in a mature manner, do not publicly call people out or argue over opinions as it is not only disrespectful to the thread creator but it is also against the forum guidelines of these development forums.
Failing that, use the report function and report the post in question with a valid reason for doing so and move on, I check reports every day and deal with them as necessary.
Liav said:I just don't see how people can say that EQ was the epitome of a leveling experience and then advocate for time based XP caps.
Oh well. I'll trust Kilsin on this one and hope that a decent middle ground is delivered.
I preferred the leveling system in FFXI more than any other game. No other game came close. It was mostly because of the challenge and seeing people with sub-classes while I was still a newb. When you had a bard in your group at level 15 whose main was a 75 white mage, it was pretty awesome and occurences (with tons of combinations) like this happened all the time. These players were distinctly more powerful than anybody else in your group and would generally be willing to lead your group and help facilitate some XP grinding or quest completion. I understand that Pantheon will not have subclasses, but it'd be rewarding for the community (especially new players that don't start at launch) if there was some sort of incentive to have higher level characters mentor down. With most games now a player might offer to mentor down to help kill a named (for their own potential gain) because it otherwise wouldn't drop loot for them, and then bail on the group once it's dead. There is no incentive for them to stay with the group and show them the ropes unless it's a personal friend.
I do see how the Progeny system could recreate those type of experiences, though. By the time someone is ready to reroll via progeny, they'll likely have enough resources to invest into some pretty good twink gear ... they won't be your average level 10 or 20, they'll be extra "dynamic" and highly desirable for any group. They will likely have a pretty good understanding of the game by that point and be able to lead a group of new players through beginning content much more efficiently than what would have been possible for that group on their own. This is one of the main reasons I am so intrigued by the progeny system. It creates an influx of knowledgeable players to populate the lower tiered zones and having that type of experienced player in a group of newbs (forgive the term but we're all newbs when we start a game fresh) can be very impactful. It could be the difference between someone having a night perceived as fun and successful, or a night perceived as boring and dreadful.
I imagine that when a 2'nd generation player is running around a beginner zone, they should be pretty easily identified as "seasoned". This could be from a combination of gear(unlike fresh lowbies they can afford sets of gear from the AH), title, or some other visual indicator and that could provide for a pretty cool experience. It'd be cool for the 2'nd generation character because they get to feel all extra uber and stuff compared to how their first run went, and even cooler for the lowbie group because of how lucky they feel to have such an experienced player in their group. These "seasoned" players are generally going to pull more than their fair share of the weight of the group regardless of what class they play.
With all of that being said, I don't think any extra effort should go into the concept of forcibly slowing down a player's XP. There is nothing wrong with people getting to level cap! The more people that get to level cap, the more 2'nd or 3'rd or 4'th generation players the community will get to see running around. I see this as a good thing. If you go out of your way to slow down XP, you're going out of your way to slow down anything related to the Progeny system. That would be counter intuitive to an area of the game that is being innovated upon. All that we know now is that there will be a small bonus for advancing through the Progeny system, and that's pretty broad. Should the developers go out of their way to forcibly slow down XP while simultaneously introducing an innovative feature to the game that's based on leveling a character multiple times for "small bonuses?" I guess something like that just doesen't make sense to me.
@oneADseven
Good point. I don't even want to think about it really given the complaints wrt Progeny I've already posted in the thread most relevant to that topic.
There's several layers to take into consideration when it comes to the desired leveling experience in Pantheon and it's disappointing to see that there's next to no consensus, although it's expected. This thread is a little off the rails, anyway.
oneADseven said:OakKnower said:Dullahan said:OakKnower said:The thing I don't understand about arguing against speed levelers is, why does someone elses experience affect anothers to such a degree that something must be done about it when that experience is only realized by the individual going through it? Being one of the few 'peacocks' is not a shared or mutual experience IMO.
That's the wrong question. It's not people speeding through content that is the issue, but the game allowing it. If people are able to just speed through, that impacts everyone because it means the game I'm hoping to play long term, with all of it's mysteries and challenges, really isn't going to be that mysterious, that challenging, or that long-term.
It's a valid concern.
I hear what you are saying Dullahan. And I don't disagree with you in the least. I am assuming that the conent that exists is rich, dense, and engaging. My point is that despite those qualities there will be people who will forgo that material (as much as is neccessary) to be the first (or one of the first) to claim an otherwise unofficial and generally regardless assertion of being the first to max level.
I do hope that the conent will be worth many days well spent for most of us. For me personally, it will be the measuring stick by which I decide the game is worthy of years or months of time spent playing.
I'm just not sure how to prohibit someone from leveling as fast a they possibly can and not create conflict from that end (key word is prohibit in an active sense). Creating material such that it is not punitive but rather convincing it's player base to stay engaged appropriately in that content that the idea of getting to max level as quickly as possible no longer a challenge is the true challenge.
Did that make sense?
I really liked EVE online in that sense. There was no max level to drive a person to feel they needed to be the first.
I'm fairly positive that there will be people rushing to level cap on every single server. I don't see anyway round this. The thrill of competition is always going to be a factor when you get a massive amount of people playing a video game together. While some people prefer the social aspect of MMO's, many others prefer the challenge, and most people will assume that end-game content is going to be the most challenging. I think there should be a lot of emphasis on making the entire game challenging. I want there to be mini epic quests around level 35 that are a real PITA to get done. Combine things like this with tons of optional advancement opportunities that can make a character more "dynamic" and people will realize that getting to level 50 isn't quite the same accomplishment as being a well-versed dynamic level 50.
I have mentioned in various other posts that I think an AA system at launch would be a great way to keep players engaged with current tier content much much longer. You can't grind the AA's out, rather, you can only earn XP toward AA points by visiting new locations, completing quests, or for the first time you kill a unique named mob. This ensures the idea that players have no choice but to experience as much content as possible in order to unlock the true potential of their characters. The interesting dynamic here is that when it comes to the final leg of the AA tree, players might actively seek out other classes to help THEM with THEIR unique quests. I can see it now ... a dire lord asking in community chat if there are any enchanters working on an enchanter specific timeline. The direlord is actively seeking out enchanters to help THEM on THEIR quest because they are a means to an end for him being able to kill the unique named from those quests or be able to travel to a unique location. The enchanter wins because he's getting help without having to beg, and the direlord wins because he's experiencing content that he otherwise would not have been able to. It's a double whammy and both parties win.
I really like the idea of a dynamic character system. I hope something like it is expressed in Pantheon.
Your AA concept has merit as well. I'm not sure I've seen anything like it before, at least from the begining of gameplay. Regarding that, my only hope would be that it was done very discreetly and not presented as a Disneyland feature. This could spur rivalry between players as well in a different way that might satisfy the competative nature of some.
From what I have seen almost everyone agrees that an algorythm should be created (though they may not realize they agreed with it), but the variables associated with it needs to be adjusted based on specific desires. I'm fine with that. I support the creation of the algorythm for the sole fact that it would create a handy tool for teh DevTeam to make adjustments on the fly - for whatever reasons my pop up. Said tool could be used to boost XP for certain reasons (hoilday reward etc.) or special events (thinking along the lines of the return of Bertie in EQ2 with the disease - would be cool if it came with a 20% reduction making you to WANT to get cured ASAP). There are a lot of reasons that could be there...
In every MMO I have tested, I played the first month at least. In every case where I was able to max out before the first free month of play was used - I left. The problem with games that allow you to level up so fast is that the player base never fully developes a relationship with the game itself. Ultima Online was a game that was created that took a significant amount of time to play. You could build housing etc. You developed a real desire to see your game continue to grow - regardless of better products out there. Folks developed such a strong relationship with this game that years past it's prime it continued because people did not want their own little slice of this world to go away. They happily paid their $14.99 a month to keep their stuff. You had folks that didn't log in for years at a time but they happily paid for their account. Folks who are able to "finish" or max out quickly never develope this relationship.
One of the ways to keep folks from blasting thru the content is to keep the RPG part of this game's genre in mind. I believe the developers are doing this which is why I put up my money. So many games now forget the RPG part of the MMORPG that it almost seems like an intentional design choice. Give players things to do outside of combat/speed leveling that have meaning and value.
Crafting like in EQ or EQ2 adds depth to the game. Crafting like in WoW or Rift does not. In the former, you feel like you had to work for that new sword you just made. In the latter, you made 10 to get your skill up to the next tier.
Diplomacy from Vanguard seemed like a good idea. Unfortunately I didn't get to do much with it, but it was nice to see quests and game experiences not tied to getting to a higher level or just better equipment.
Faction see-saws are a great way to keep that RPG going. Make killing an NPC or turning in quests for faction gain have a negative hit as well. I feel games today don't have this and it trivializes the faction "game."
As for actual combat leveling, you can't artificially slow down the leveling process for the speed guys. Anything you impose on them, will come back progressively harder on the steady, slow, or snail paced levelers. That being said, If it takes 180-200 hrs for the fastest guys to get to max level, that isn't a bad thing. As Kilsin said previously, if they get too far ahead, that's on them.
I think something that doesn't get brought up often is that the way the game works (especially for new players) is just fundamentally different vis-a-vis obtaining level-appropriate spells and equipment. It does no good to gain like 30+ levels and only that because most of the stuff you'd be exp'ing on especially by the end would be super soft targets because your spells aren't handed to you and neither is gear. At least, that is basically how it worked in FFXI. Obtaining gear, spells, and general spending money was a much larger part of the game, something that basically doesn't exist nowadays and is a monumental stumbling block to powerlevelling. It doesn't matter if you gain a level every 2-3 hours if you need to spend at least half that making sure you're not gimp AF.
Obviously that's not an issue for twinks/progeny, but trying to limit their experience is more trouble than its worth.
Didn't read all 7 pages but: Nothing will keep people from blasting to max level. Even in the tougher eras of EQ people went for max level asap, maxed out crafting asap - sometimes even sharing accounts to do so (being online 24h a day and active kinda tips that off ;) ).
In terms of what VR can do? Nothing. Anything they put it would hinder regular players unfairly at some point. Only suggestion I could give is not rewarding server firsts related to levelling (levels, crafting levels, etc). Let's face it, no one really remembers server firsts, more so level related in any other games - it fades from memory as unimportant. Now, server firsts for content is a different matter (EQ's Sleeper for instance) - reward for content based achievements.
MMO trends lately has been to make levelling easy and develop for end game content, it's way easier (and cost effective) to develop for one group of people and not several. IE: Make content for level 45-50, not 1-10,10-20, 20-30,30-40,40-50.
One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Canno said:One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Nothing so good as working your way through a dungeon over a handful of levels only to finally reach the end/final camp of it. Much better than running instance dungeon 3 to completion over 30 minutes, 7 times before moving on to the next.
Stephen said:First of all i would like to say I LOVE the way this game is being designed....I am one of those players that always rush to max level and compete for world firsts/server firsts
Those statements directly contradict each other. This game is designed for those players who have are the opposite of the hose interested in rushing to "firsts".
The way I see it, the EQ player population started out by wanted to live in a persistent, virtual reality world. Over time, the MMORPG player-base degraded into players who wanted to race to to the top and were not in the game for the virtual RP but for the uber-phat-lewtz-lolol.
The whole MMORPG genre suffered from that and the gaming landscape started disintigrating.
Brad has said this game isn't for everyone. In fact it's aimed at a very specific target demographic - those players who want a difficult, collaborative social game. Exactly the opposite of what you've described.
Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
fazool said:Those statements directly contradict each other. This game is designed for those players who have are the opposite of the hose interested in rushing to "firsts".
The way I see it, the EQ player population started out by wanted to live in a persistent, virtual reality world. Over time, the MMORPG player-base degraded into players who wanted to race to to the top and were not in the game for the virtual RP but for the uber-phat-lewtz-lolol.
The whole MMORPG genre suffered from that and the gaming landscape started disintigrating.
Brad has said this game isn't for everyone. In fact it's aimed at a very specific target demographic - those players who want a difficult, collaborative social game. Exactly the opposite of what you've described.
Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Even if it were somehow designed against those who wanted firsts it wouldn't stop those whose playstyle/mentality is pursuing rushing/firsts. On top of which that doesn't mean those who push for first don't also enjoy difficult, social, collaborative experiences.
A year for who and what do you mean by max out?
fazool said:Stephen said:First of all i would like to say I LOVE the way this game is being designed....I am one of those players that always rush to max level and compete for world firsts/server firsts
Those statements directly contradict each other. This game is designed for those players who have are the opposite of the hose interested in rushing to "firsts".
The way I see it, the EQ player population started out by wanted to live in a persistent, virtual reality world. Over time, the MMORPG player-base degraded into players who wanted to race to to the top and were not in the game for the virtual RP but for the uber-phat-lewtz-lolol.
The whole MMORPG genre suffered from that and the gaming landscape started disintigrating.
Brad has said this game isn't for everyone. In fact it's aimed at a very specific target demographic - those players who want a difficult, collaborative social game. Exactly the opposite of what you've described.
Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
Sorry I didn't know you were best buddies with the dev team and know exactly what they are trying to achieve before alpha is even out.
On a more serious note...
There will be raids......check.
There will be a level cap......check.
There will be epic quests.....check.
As long as there is things like that then there will be content for people who enjoy racing and competing for server firsts. Leave us to have fun the way we want to and you can do your thing. Stop telling people that the game isn't for them just because they don't want to stay in a level 25 dungeon for 2 weeks chilling and roleplaying.
fazool said:Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
Yea that isn't gonna happen lol. You'll be lucky if there isn't a level 50 by the end of 2 weeks. Now the super casual players that only play < 5hours a week, sure maybe it'll take them a year
Enitzu said:fazool said:Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
Yea that isn't gonna happen lol. You'll be lucky if there isn't a level 50 by the end of 2 weeks. Now the super casual players that only play < 5hours a week, sure maybe it'll take them a year
Yeah the reason I would bet everything I own on it aswell is because I watched a 2014 interview with Brad promoting Pantheon and he was asked what he thought of Lineage and said it was too grindy leveling for his taste. Lineage was around a year for the hardcore if I remember right. So yeah...taking 1 year minimum for most people to level is not gonna be a thing in this game lol.
Even back in early EQ, you had those rushing thru the levels to get to the max. But it still took them a lot of hours to get there. Those are what you call the hard core. They are what push the devs to up their game on the next expansion's end game content. In a game's early stages, they are extremely important. Thier achievements help push the next set of players on towards that carrot. People keep playing, then eventually if the content wears down, they've got year/years invested in their character that makes them less likely to leave.
Players rushing to cap in this game is not bad. Players able to do so in a week or so in this game IS bad.
Stephen said:Sorry I didn't know you were best buddies with the dev team and know exactly what they are trying to achieve before alpha is even out.
That was an uncalled for snarky personal attack
To answer your question: I've been an active supporter here since day-one so around a lot. I've had the opportunity to read/hear this said several times (not the one year comment - just the comment that this game isn't for everyone. Its for the old school players).
fazool said:Stephen said:Sorry I didn't know you were best buddies with the dev team and know exactly what they are trying to achieve before alpha is even out.
That was an uncalled for snarky personal attack
To answer your question: I've been an active supporter here since day-one so around a lot. I've had the opportunity to read/hear this said several times (not the one year comment - just the comment that this game isn't for everyone. Its for the old school players).
Sorry if you took it as an attack. Where I come from sarcasm is a common theme and used a lot.
What makes you think I am not an old school player anyways though? I've been playing mmo's for close to 18 years. Are you saying that there was no old school players that enjoyed racing for world firsts back in the days? Because I beg to differ friend.
Stephen said:Enitzu said:fazool said:Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
Yea that isn't gonna happen lol. You'll be lucky if there isn't a level 50 by the end of 2 weeks. Now the super casual players that only play < 5hours a week, sure maybe it'll take them a year
Yeah the reason I would bet everything I own on it aswell is because I watched a 2014 interview with Brad promoting Pantheon and he was asked what he thought of Lineage and said it was too grindy leveling for his taste. Lineage was around a year for the hardcore if I remember right. So yeah...taking 1 year minimum for most people to level is not gonna be a thing in this game lol.
To be fair, Fazool didn't say "max level" in a year. He said "max out", which could mean something completely different (e.g. maxing out the progeny system).
Canno said:Didn't read all 7 pages but: Nothing will keep people from blasting to max level. Even in the tougher eras of EQ people went for max level asap, maxed out crafting asap - sometimes even sharing accounts to do so (being online 24h a day and active kinda tips that off ;) ).
In terms of what VR can do? Nothing. Anything they put it would hinder regular players unfairly at some point. Only suggestion I could give is not rewarding server firsts related to levelling (levels, crafting levels, etc). Let's face it, no one really remembers server firsts, more so level related in any other games - it fades from memory as unimportant. Now, server firsts for content is a different matter (EQ's Sleeper for instance) - reward for content based achievements.
MMO trends lately has been to make levelling easy and develop for end game content, it's way easier (and cost effective) to develop for one group of people and not several. IE: Make content for level 45-50, not 1-10,10-20, 20-30,30-40,40-50.
One of the beauties of (early) EQ - plenty of things to do at all levels. Levelling wasn't a means to get at more content - the encouragement to explore and see what's out there was, for the most part, better than levelling.
Seems a bit over-zealous when you make a comment that includes "everyone" or "no one" ...
I had the 2'nd level 70 worldwide in EQ2 and I'll never forget the ranger in NPU another server that got there first ... this was over 10 years ago. I'll also never forget the cleric "Redduce" on Diren's Hold Server EQOA. They were the first level 50 on the server, and I remember this from about 15 years ago. I'll also never forget the enchanter Ninikbik, who I barely beat out to become the first level 50 enchanter on server. You may not have remembered details like these because they weren't important to you. As someone who has always been one of the first to max level on a server wide level or worldwide level, I'll tell you that I do remember these things. And I know for a fact that plenty of the people I was guilded with remember it as well. Our guild had the majority of server first classes to level cap in every expansion, and there is no coincidence that we also discovered 90% of the raid loot(if you were first to loot something on a server in EQ2, it would show as a guild event that could be saved.) Our guild history showed every single epic weapon discovery, first boss kill, etc and we saved that progress for YEARS as a reminder of the reign of dominance our guild maintained on our server.
The other thing is this ... being the first to level cap and being the first to beat raid content go hand in hand more often than not. This is because the most HARDCORE players are generally going to level the fastest and also start clearing content before any other guild. In the history of every MMO I have ever played, NOT ONCE do I ever recall a casual, semi-casual, or semi-hardcore raid guild EVER getting a server first, let alone a world first. This is because they were always behind on the progression curve.
Enitzu said:fazool said:Hopefully no one can max out in this game within the first YEAR, minimum.
Yea that isn't gonna happen lol. You'll be lucky if there isn't a level 50 by the end of 2 weeks. Now the super casual players that only play < 5hours a week, sure maybe it'll take them a year
Correct. Financial wisdom says you design for the largest part of your paying target demographic. That's not the 1% that plays 12-14 hours a day. It's the 75%+ that plays 1-2 hours a day.
And any attempts at temporal XP caps or diminishing returns on loot/xp? That will just drive everyone away.