vjek said:Here's a quick example:
It is technically possible to optionally and dynamically adjust all encounters to the level of a group. If a group of players wanted to stay in an area, to say, oh I don't know, collect colored mana widgets for Environmental Attunement? The group leader could optionally click a checkbox that says "Dynamic Challenge" which means as soon as you engage an encounter, no matter what your level, either you or the encounter are adjusted down or up to ensure you are challenged and gain experience. Via such a mechanic, players could adventure anywhere at their level or lower and still obtain a reward for their risk, as per the tenets.
All the responses from the entrenched close-minded community will be negative to such an idea, because in their minds, such a thing can't possibly be good for two reasons. 1) they've never seen it before, so it must be bad and/or 2) it's "just like" some other terribly implemented system that is the only thing they can think that's close, so it must be bad. The consideration that there is potential for innovative, fun, and challenging game play with such an idea is never considered.
I've seen this tried before. It's not a bad idea at all but the problem with it is the scaling technology. It rarely ever truely lines up. It generally scales level and sometimes even gear but it doesn't do it completely correct. Which generally ends up turning out to be fights are much easier when scaled down rather than level appropriate. If they can find a way to get the scaling right then I'd be all for it. What I am not for is being able to scale down and kill lvl 25 mobs at 40 just because it's equal to relevant xp as a much easier fight. If that becomes the case, people will abuse it.
vjek said:Stephen said:... I don't really understand how they will stop the "incentive" of players from wanting to get max level fast and firing through the epic quest or raids available.
It's a challenging topic because any attempt to discuss innovative mechanics in this area is soundly defeated by the community defending denizens. It's already started with PRF, as it did/has with PFO and SOTA as well as others that have launched back to 1996. Once people get a preconceived notion in their head about how the game should be, any other ideas are dismissed or contradicted and logical deconstruction isn't even considered.
My point? Whatever incentives are offered by non-denizens won't be seriously considered at this point. The videos and dev posts to date have already culled out all that innovative thinking. Public perception is: reach max level, raid for no-trade. No matter what the web site says, no matter what the actual design goals are, that's public perception, wrong or right.
My experience recently with EQ1 TLP, as a monk: Leveling in a group was extremely fast. To the point where I was outleveling all my skills. I couldn't use my skills often enough to get enough skill checks for them to be capped out. Now, obviously, if the skill-up check curve had been adjusted this wouldn't be an issue, but evidently it hasn't been. Hence, you can get caught well behind the skill cap. But if you never solo (which you really shouldn't, given the XP bonus for grouping) then does it matter? I'm sure opinions will vary.
Here's a quick example:
It is technically possible to optionally and dynamically adjust all encounters to the level of a group. If a group of players wanted to stay in an area, to say, oh I don't know, collect colored mana widgets for Environmental Attunement? The group leader could optionally click a checkbox that says "Dynamic Challenge" which means as soon as you engage an encounter, no matter what your level, either you or the encounter are adjusted down or up to ensure you are challenged and gain experience. Via such a mechanic, players could adventure anywhere at their level or lower and still obtain a reward for their risk, as per the tenets.
All the responses from the entrenched close-minded community will be negative to such an idea, because in their minds, such a thing can't possibly be good for two reasons. 1) they've never seen it before, so it must be bad and/or 2) it's "just like" some other terribly implemented system that is the only thing they can think that's close, so it must be bad. The consideration that there is potential for innovative, fun, and challenging game play with such an idea is never considered.
There are a wide variety of techniques, mechanics, and systems that can encourage players to stay at a given level. A very simple one is the ability to turn off XP gain. What, you say? Why would such a feature ever be in a game? Well, for exactly this reason.. you can choose to NOT "blast to max level" and stay at whatever level you want. There's no indication Pantheon will have such an option, but it is a solution some players would use. Cue the denizens that will say "that's a bad idea because..."
Personally, I hope class-specific, unique and valuable skills & spells require Environmental Attunement to certain environments like Scorching, Pressure, and Freezing and more to reach perception points. However, if that's what it takes, then leveling simply becomes "do this quest here" which drives everyone into a bottleneck for one encounter. Hopefully VR has considered this, and for any Environmental Attunement objective, there will be at least three places in the world, for a given tier (10 level range) where that objective can be reached. Otherwise, it's going to be the Najena Jboots all over again.
I think the issue is we already have games like that and it detracts from the experience for some people. I remember playing the elder scrolls oblivion and hating it because everything leveled with you. It erased the fact that you were becoming more powerful. There was no opportunity to travel back to a lower level dungeon and feel like you were really stronger. It also removed the uniqeness of certain areas. It can be used well in instanced areas, but this will be a non instanced game I believe. I believe they already said you can use the mentor system which will bring you down to around the level of the people you are grouping with if you want to do a lower level dungeon.
Evoras said:I don't think EXP for killing a mob should ever be zero (while non-trivial = grey),
but simply link these reductions to 'achievements'.Achievement
Met an Orc (kill 1 Orc) = get 200% exp for first 5 kills each
Chaser of Orcs (kill 5) = after 5 reduce exp to 100%
Basher of Orcs (kill 50) = after 50 reduce exp to 90%
Orc Culler (kill 100) = after 100 reduce exp to 80%
Orc Killer (kill 500) = after 500 reduce exp to 70%
Orc Battler (kill 1000) = after 1000 reduce exp to 60%
Orc Slayer (Kill 5000) = after 5000 reduce exp to 50%
Orc Nemesis (get 'Slayer' for 5 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 25%
Orc Bane (get 'Slayer' for all 10 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 10%So killing more and more of the same type of mob leads to diminishing returns.
It does give shiny achievement badges though!, perhaps?
Actually thinking about it, this isn't an idea I would like lol.
Evoras said:I don't think EXP for killing a mob should ever be zero (while non-trivial = grey),
but simply link these reductions to 'achievements'.Achievement
Met an Orc (kill 1 Orc) = get 200% exp for first 5 kills each
Chaser of Orcs (kill 5) = after 5 reduce exp to 100%
Basher of Orcs (kill 50) = after 50 reduce exp to 90%
Orc Culler (kill 100) = after 100 reduce exp to 80%
Orc Killer (kill 500) = after 500 reduce exp to 70%
Orc Battler (kill 1000) = after 1000 reduce exp to 60%
Orc Slayer (Kill 5000) = after 5000 reduce exp to 50%
Orc Nemesis (get 'Slayer' for 5 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 25%
Orc Bane (get 'Slayer' for all 10 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 10%So killing more and more of the same type of mob leads to diminishing returns.
It does give shiny achievement badges though!, perhaps?
I am hesitant to have achievements such as kill X number of orcs. Achievements with rewards, are basically another version of quests. To get all of the achievements in the game, you have to repeatedly kill X number of every single mob in the game? Worst quest ever.
I think the incentive for players to not grind the same mob over and over is the loot. If you want to get different pieces of gear and kinds of dropped items, you need to travel. Sitting in cave X all day grinding bats may be the fastest way to level from 35 to 36, but at level 37 when you must go to the next area you may be too undergeared to survive in a different climate.
So at 37, you have to pop around to kill a few bosses and complete some quests for armor, then you can go grind in the level 37 frozen spider cave. How is that method for leveling any inferior to someone who moves from camp to camp killing bosses while earning exp? I don't think either style of gameplay should be punished.
Also, typically any one camp is only great exp for a few levels at most. Once you gaine one or two levels, the exp starts to suck and it behooves you to find a new camp. By the time you kill 500 orcs, you've probaby already out leveled the camp anyways. The problem of staying at the same spot takes care of itself.
EDIT: Also, I think what you describe could instead be covered by the faction system. Like in lower guk, if you killed too many frogluks it was a major pain later to fix your faction. So that was sort of a penalty for grinding too many of the same mob type, without preventing you from being able to do it if you wanted to.
I always find it interesting that so many people feel that everyone should be forced to play their way. One group likes it slow, so everyone should be forced to go slow. The other groups wants fast and thinks everyone else is just wrong.
How another person plays does not change your achievement or enjoyment.
I plan to have the best of both worlds. I will spend the first two weeks (vacation from work) playing 20 hours a day, most likely working one one character. Except when I play with my wife. I will use a second character, go slower and enjoy the sights.
I am in the game for the long run. I donated at the VIP level to play for years. I can get the high level action AND all the other content simultaneously over time.
Dhampir said:Sorry that I want the game to actually have meaning and feel realistic in terms of progress. If I blow through the entire game in a month - as I have every single MMO since Everquest - I'm going to lose interest extremely quickly. I'm not basing this off OTHER people hitting max level fast. I'm the type to focus on one game and play it exclusively. I'm usually among the first on a server to hit cap, and I lose interest fairly quickly after since modern MMOs aren't designed with staying power.
This game needs to be slower. It needs to put on the brakes and make you think about things before you do them. It needs to make people feel like they are part of the world. If the game is too fast, then players will feel like they have to be fast as well. Which causes the 'OMG RUSH RUSH RUSH' mentality most MMO gamers have in this day and age.
I guess what I'm saying is I need this game to be slow so I can feel like I don't have to rush. If the exp is slow enough where I can look at my friends list and think, "Hey. I can take today off from grinding and focus on selling or camping a mob for a drop I want and I won't fall behind at all." THAT is why I loved Everquest. I could make a decision like that and not have my friends blow through 2-3 levels and leave me in the dust.
All I'm saying is - it needs to be slow enough where the average player will not cap out in a single month. Hardcore players who have no job/play almost 20 hours a day - I'd say hitting cap after a couple months would be fine with me.
While there may not be any way to absolutely prevent people from achieving max level in a matter of weeks, there are ways to seriously slow them down. It's actually not that hard. You do it by gear checks. That is done with formulas involving skill levels and statistics.
To make explaining it simple, let's just call this Focus for casters, and Attack for melee. If relative to level, it takes a higher level of Focus to effectively heal your allies, as well as the focus/attack necessary to effectively and reliably damage mobs, it will eventually become mandatory for players to gear out their character to continue gaining experience. Thus, the player who spent time playing the game and gearing accordingly will be able to gain experience much faster than an undergeared character doing nothing but grinding the best experience spot.
It's really that simple. When player power is more rigidly determined by equipment and stats versus purely by levels, it changes the path of progression to one that cannot as easily be rushed. A player still wearing starter rags at level 10 will notice it getting really hard to grind experience, despite the fact that he or she is fighting mobs at or even below their own level. They'll have to spend their money finding some better armor, tracking down some rare spawns, or delving into dungeons if they want to get back to grinding experience. Same with a level 30 player wearing old armor from their teens. To put it succinctly, the fastest way to level is no longer focusing on gaining experience, but on the broader player progression, with all of it's pitfalls, time sinks and cooperative requirements.
That of course doesn't stop twinks, but that's a whole different topic.
I'll be taking my time, working on my factions, my spell skills, getting to know people..maybe even joining a guild..once I find one that I would feel comfortable with. I'll be crafting, harvesting, exploring my environment, and anything that will bring my character up to my standards. If that takes a year, so be it. Here to experience the journey..not the race to the end.
Nephretiti said:UnknownQuantity said:I'm not sure diminishing returns would work. For instance if the group that formed to powerlevel learned they couldn't get to max level fastest by camping the same spot then they would just move around constantly while killing mobs. The only thing that would encourage is to move around.
You were mixing the two forms I listed. I would like to see both forms added to tell the truth but I am probably far outvoted in this regard. There should be a limit on a specif mob type. There should also be a limit to the amount of Xp gain/time in total. So you could get diminishing returns for kill kobalds to the point where you no longer gain XP for killing them , but you can still get loot etc. At the same time the amount of XP gain from killing mobs is tracked over any specific amount of time. This would recall ALL xp gain from killing mobs. And once a specific throeshold is reached, you will no longer receive XP gains for killing ANY mobs until the xp gain/time reduces itself for the next time interval tracked. Naturally there should be some exceptions. First time kills (or perhaps the first X number of kills) for specific mobs etc. There really enough variables in a system like this that you could build almost anything. Variables like "how much time per tracked interval"? 10 minutes? An hour? A day? All of those but at different reductions per level of interval? This is more to get us thinking at the possibility of what can be restricted than an actuall numbers type of things.
In another time I actually tracked analytics for an MMO. I had reports generated to me to track XP gain/time for the top gainers in a 24 hour period. I would then track everything done by those players over the past 24 hours to determine HOW they made these gains. Sometimes it was someone just grinding away on specific mobs. I would then examine those mobs to determine if there was an error in the amount of XP awarded for those mobs. It was almost always correct. But sometimes it wasn't. Someone would find a mob that was accidently awarding 10x the amount it was supposed to award. I would then notify the DevTeam and a fix would be done.
I also did this for a number of other mechanics in-game. Coin game/time etc. Depending on how robust the database is, you would be suprised to at what can be tracked etc.
Seriously, it was mostly math. I enjoyed it alot.
I honestly wouldnt mind this if the diminishing return start was at 16 hours or something that would not effect 99% of player. It would be great for the botters to be locked from getting exp for a while every 16 hours.
Dullahan said:While there may not be any way to absolutely prevent people from achieving max level in a matter of weeks, there are ways to seriously slow them down. It's actually not that hard. You do it by gear checks. That is done with formulas involving skill levels and statistics.
To make explaining it simple, let's just call this Focus for casters, and Attack for melee. If relative to level, it takes a higher level of Focus to effectively heal your allies, as well as the focus/attack necessary to effectively and reliably damage mobs, it will eventually become mandatory for players to gear out their character to continue gaining experience. Thus, the player who spent time playing the game and gearing accordingly will be able to gain experience much faster than an undergeared character doing nothing but grinding the best experience spot.
It's really that simple. When player power is more rigidly determined by equipment and stats versus purely by levels, it changes the path of progression to one that cannot as easily be rushed. A player still wearing starter rags at level 10 will notice it getting really hard to grind experience, despite the fact that he or she is fighting mobs at or even below their own level. They'll have to spend their money finding some better armor, tracking down some rare spawns, or delving into dungeons if they want to get back to grinding experience. Same with a level 30 player wearing old armor from their teens. To put it succinctly, the fastest way to level is no longer focusing on gaining experience, but on the broader player progression, with all of it's pitfalls, time sinks and cooperative requirements.
That of course doesn't stop twinks, but that's a whole different topic.
This blew my mind in so many ways. I haven't seen anyone else suggest anything like this yet. I can't believe I never even thought about something as simple as this concept, it's actually genius and would work really well in my eyes and most players would not complain I would imagine since it keeps you working on stuff rather than mindlessly grinding in the best spots one after the other. @Aradune Can you confirm if this would be something you guys would consider atleast testing in alpha maybe?
Dullahan said:While there may not be any way to absolutely prevent people from achieving max level in a matter of weeks, there are ways to seriously slow them down. It's actually not that hard. You do it by gear checks. That is done with formulas involving skill levels and statistics.
To make explaining it simple, let's just call this Focus for casters, and Attack for melee. If relative to level, it takes a higher level of Focus to effectively heal your allies, as well as the focus/attack necessary to effectively and reliably damage mobs, it will eventually become mandatory for players to gear out their character to continue gaining experience. Thus, the player who spent time playing the game and gearing accordingly will be able to gain experience much faster than an undergeared character doing nothing but grinding the best experience spot.
It's really that simple. When player power is more rigidly determined by equipment and stats versus purely by levels, it changes the path of progression to one that cannot as easily be rushed. A player still wearing starter rags at level 10 will notice it getting really hard to grind experience, despite the fact that he or she is fighting mobs at or even below their own level. They'll have to spend their money finding some better armor, tracking down some rare spawns, or delving into dungeons if they want to get back to grinding experience. Same with a level 30 player wearing old armor from their teens. To put it succinctly, the fastest way to level is no longer focusing on gaining experience, but on the broader player progression, with all of it's pitfalls, time sinks and cooperative requirements.
That of course doesn't stop twinks, but that's a whole different topic.
I would be in favor of something like this. Using a spell quality system like EQ2 could help with progression. When you level up you get the apprentice version of your spell ... adept 1 is a random drop, and adept 3 is a rare crafted version. Master spells are really rare and some of the better ones can fetch huge amounts of currency. Another idea is to have an "AA" system in place from the beginning, which can't be "grinded" out. You can only advance the AA trees from completing quests, or get small bonuses when you visit a location for the first time or kill a named the first time. Even if there are only 25 or so AA points ... I am always in favor of more ways to advance my character and a break from the grind would be nice. But I'm only going to stop grinding if it's actually worth doing something else with my time. Oh you hit level 10 as a warrior but you don't have taunt? Or maybe you do have taunt, but it's only single target, and because it's apprentice quality the mobs have a % chance to resist it. By advancing through AA's your taunt can be group taunt. Upgrading spell quality lowers resist %.
Stephen said:Dullahan said:While there may not be any way to absolutely prevent people from achieving max level in a matter of weeks, there are ways to seriously slow them down. It's actually not that hard. You do it by gear checks. That is done with formulas involving skill levels and statistics.
To make explaining it simple, let's just call this Focus for casters, and Attack for melee. If relative to level, it takes a higher level of Focus to effectively heal your allies, as well as the focus/attack necessary to effectively and reliably damage mobs, it will eventually become mandatory for players to gear out their character to continue gaining experience. Thus, the player who spent time playing the game and gearing accordingly will be able to gain experience much faster than an undergeared character doing nothing but grinding the best experience spot.
It's really that simple. When player power is more rigidly determined by equipment and stats versus purely by levels, it changes the path of progression to one that cannot as easily be rushed. A player still wearing starter rags at level 10 will notice it getting really hard to grind experience, despite the fact that he or she is fighting mobs at or even below their own level. They'll have to spend their money finding some better armor, tracking down some rare spawns, or delving into dungeons if they want to get back to grinding experience. Same with a level 30 player wearing old armor from their teens. To put it succinctly, the fastest way to level is no longer focusing on gaining experience, but on the broader player progression, with all of it's pitfalls, time sinks and cooperative requirements.
That of course doesn't stop twinks, but that's a whole different topic.
This blew my mind in so many ways. I haven't seen anyone else suggest anything like this yet. I can't believe I never even thought about something as simple as this concept, it's actually genius and would work really well in my eyes and most players would not complain I would imagine since it keeps you working on stuff rather than mindlessly grinding in the best spots one after the other. @Aradune Can you confirm if this would be something you guys would consider atleast testing in alpha maybe?
It really isn't as genius as you'd think. It's been done in a few games. The simple work around to this is to grind gearing areas. The high end players that do burn through the leveling content do so by learning the most effective routes, which will be known well before the end of beta. So adding this in simply changes where they level. In fact this would more hurt the more casual players than it would the more hardcore players. The hardcore crowd will have set groups to power grind the minute of launch. Those groups will hit every camp they need to in order to keep themselves progressing forward. They may not be optimal the entire way but they wouldn't have to back track at any point. If they were to put in larger requirements for gear then the group comps would simply change to favor either more melee or more casters rather than a mix. This cuts down on the number of camps needed by having multiple people get things fromt he same camps.
So while it is effective at slowing things down a little, it is by no means a 'fix'. If anything this would forcably tunnel large groups of people into the same areas to farm gear instead of allowing them to spread out over open world areas just to get xp.
Enitzu said:Stephen said:Dullahan said:While there may not be any way to absolutely prevent people from achieving max level in a matter of weeks, there are ways to seriously slow them down. It's actually not that hard. You do it by gear checks. That is done with formulas involving skill levels and statistics.
To make explaining it simple, let's just call this Focus for casters, and Attack for melee. If relative to level, it takes a higher level of Focus to effectively heal your allies, as well as the focus/attack necessary to effectively and reliably damage mobs, it will eventually become mandatory for players to gear out their character to continue gaining experience. Thus, the player who spent time playing the game and gearing accordingly will be able to gain experience much faster than an undergeared character doing nothing but grinding the best experience spot.
It's really that simple. When player power is more rigidly determined by equipment and stats versus purely by levels, it changes the path of progression to one that cannot as easily be rushed. A player still wearing starter rags at level 10 will notice it getting really hard to grind experience, despite the fact that he or she is fighting mobs at or even below their own level. They'll have to spend their money finding some better armor, tracking down some rare spawns, or delving into dungeons if they want to get back to grinding experience. Same with a level 30 player wearing old armor from their teens. To put it succinctly, the fastest way to level is no longer focusing on gaining experience, but on the broader player progression, with all of it's pitfalls, time sinks and cooperative requirements.
That of course doesn't stop twinks, but that's a whole different topic.
This blew my mind in so many ways. I haven't seen anyone else suggest anything like this yet. I can't believe I never even thought about something as simple as this concept, it's actually genius and would work really well in my eyes and most players would not complain I would imagine since it keeps you working on stuff rather than mindlessly grinding in the best spots one after the other. @Aradune Can you confirm if this would be something you guys would consider atleast testing in alpha maybe?
It really isn't as genius as you'd think. It's been done in a few games. The simple work around to this is to grind gearing areas. The high end players that do burn through the leveling content do so by learning the most effective routes, which will be known well before the end of beta. So adding this in simply changes where they level. In fact this would more hurt the more casual players than it would the more hardcore players. The hardcore crowd will have set groups to power grind the minute of launch. Those groups will hit every camp they need to in order to keep themselves progressing forward. They may not be optimal the entire way but they wouldn't have to back track at any point. If they were to put in larger requirements for gear then the group comps would simply change to favor either more melee or more casters rather than a mix. This cuts down on the number of camps needed by having multiple people get things fromt he same camps.
So while it is effective at slowing things down a little, it is by no means a 'fix'. If anything this would forcably tunnel large groups of people into the same areas to farm gear instead of allowing them to spread out over open world areas just to get xp.
Even if you have the gear grinds plotted out, developers can still control the pace and the form that it takes. If developers are smart, there is no "simple work around", because they can tweak variables like spawn rates, drop rates, and level of challenge. And this is only talking soft gating. They could also hard gate content in atmospheres, require different abilities and sets of gear which players would have to collect starting at level 1. They could tie that gear progression directly to level progression for "maximum efficiency", which creates a more natural time sink. There are options for days.
I think most people would rather group up and have to play the game the way it was meant to be played, than feel the need to focus on exp grinding to rush to max. The idea is to discourage ways of playing the game that are monotonous by making them inefficient. That goes for soloing and powerleveling as much as exp grinding.
There are solutions to every problem.
To the OP, I guess it could be to try and change the mentality that "the game really starts at max level" which i hear so much when people talk about other games. This would be solved by making the content difficult all the way through instead of a breeze until you get to the end and then raiding starts. I think VR will try to make content suited for each level of Pantheon difficult and therefor you feel like you are doing good content instead of trivial content that is just fluff to amuse you while you get to max level.
I still fail to see the need to try to slow down progress artificially.
You're also just punishing the slower players more, it's all relative. If you add a million hoops to jump through, the faster/more skilled/higher playtime players will blow through those million hoops at a proportionally faster rate.
Similar to the overleveled farmers thread, it just doesn't seem like a problem worth solving to begin with.
Dullahan said:Even if you have the gear grinds plotted out, developers can still control the pace and the form that it takes. If developers are smart, there is no "simple work around", because they can tweak variables like spawn rates, drop rates, and level of challenge. And this is only talking soft gating. They could also hard gate content in atmospheres, require different abilities and sets of gear which players would have to collect starting at level 1. They could tie that gear progression directly to level progression for "maximum efficiency", which creates a more natural time sink. There are options for days.
I think most people would rather group up and have to play the game the way it was meant to be played, than feel the need to focus on exp grinding to rush to max. The idea is to discourage ways of playing the game that are monotonous by making them inefficient. That goes for soloing and powerleveling as much as exp grinding.
There are solutions to every problem.
You're absolutely right. There is a solution for everything that people can come up. And as it has happened in every other game, the devs will not be able to cover every single base and they shouldn't have to. Who cares if some group levels to cap in a week and it takes another group a month? Isn't freedom what the game is all about? If 1 person wants to push through and another doesn't, who then is the right one? The majority of things that are being said are personal preference and you guys need to remember that the people on these forums are the "hardcore". These are the people that are going to play no matter what they put in.
The people that we need to look for are the ones that we can bring into the game. The ones on the fence. The game isn't even fully funded yet and we have a long way to go to make that happen. Then after that we need to look at long term financial success which means subs. Without them we don't get regular content updates. We don't expansions. We get nothing. Being (for lack of a better term) pigheaded and unwilling to bend won't help us or the game. The rose colored glasses people are still to this day wearing after god knows how many attempts to recreate 1999 is seriously unbelievable. Nothing will ever give you that feeling again. Nothing. It is completely impossible with the amount of technology today to get the same things that made EQ what it was then.
Back on topic -
"I think most people would rather group up and have to play the game the way it was meant to be played, than feel the need to focus on exp grinding to rush to max."
So people who group up and grind xp are not playing the game then? This logic is flawed. Whether a person plays to level up as their primary goal changes nothing for you or anyone else. Your way is not the only way or the right way. That's why they call it a sandbox.
"The idea is to discourage ways of playing the game that are monotonous by making them inefficient."
Why? Why would you want to discourage anyone from playing how they want to? Because you don't think it's right? That is your opinion and you don't speak for everyone sir. Some people like to grind. Others prefer to chain dungeon run. Hell a lot perfer instancing, does that make them right and you wrong?
Regardless of what steps VRI puts into place I can assure you people will have ways around them. It is a fact that happens every time. And when they put something in place to stop them once they realize what is going on they will find another one. Welcome to the modern MMO gaming world. People will take advantage of anything they can to get ahead. Not saying it's right or wrong but it's the truth. Wasting time to build arbitrary walls for them to go around is exactly that, a waste of time.
Think that's called emergent gameplay, happened in EQ1 (and more than likely other games too) and from what I've read it came as a nice surprise to the Devs at the time. People will do what they do to get ahead. I'm not concerned. Looking forward to seeing what happens. :)
Personally the leveling phase has always been one of my favorite times in an MMO. Even though I rushed through it, I always enjoyed it. End-game raiding will always have it's place too but the journey to get to that point is even more special. This is where friendships begin, character progression takes shape, and the sense of adventure through exploration and questing unfolds. FFXI had the best leveling process of any game I have played. **** hit the fan at level 10. Death was very punishing and certain zones had higher level NPC's that would roam only at night. I remember farming the pugilists and getting blasted by some of their abilities for more than 50% of my HP as a tank.
I remember visiting different locations as I leveled up, and with each new location, the population started to slim down further and further. This was because less people were able to keep up with that extreme pace of leveling and these hotspots (Black Swan Inn? Level 35 hotstpot IIRC) were a great place for the hardcore players to find like-minded adventurers. This is how all guilds started back in the day ... it wasn't just pre-game recruitment and tons of friends swarming to new servers together. Everything was organic. That organic sense of exploration and group interaction combined with a pretty hard difficulty is key to having a rewarding leveling experience. You might group with someone at level 30 that just blows you away in how much DPS they do, or how great of a healer they are. You can tell because compared to any other players you've grouped with so far, there is just something "extra" about that player.
And XP camps are perfectly fine. When I started there was no such thing as voice comms while you grinded XP. Nowadays you can talk while you grind and this helps with more coordinated grouping endeavors while also allowing people to communicate during fights and just get some good old chitchatting and jokes in. Before if you were typing, you were slacking. I'm hoping by the time this game comes out in-game comm systems will have advanced (looking at you overwatch) and people can just jump right into a conversation with other people in their group if they have a mic hooked up.
Some ways to change people from leveling fast:
Artificial exp cap per calendar day that limits experience gained to a certain percent.
Leveling curve programmed into the game that limits levels according to time since the game has released, such as one month after game releases you can only be as high as level 20, no matter how much time you have.
Have "Hell" levels, but only apply them to people whose characters are ahead of where they "should" be according to game leveling curve.
Make quests unable to be completed unless you do them at the proper level.
I can come up with all sorts of ways to punish people for having more time to play than I, but none of them are really fair, and the main problem is that they limit the freedom of others to play the way they want to. I can make fun of them and say they have no life, but if I am honest with myself belittling them is just a sign of my own jealousy. The reality is that in mmos time=progression, and someone that has a lot of time to play isn't necessarily "missing out" on anything any more than a more casual player. The end result is that both will have spent generally the same amount of hours reaching max level.
It's OK if your play style is to rush to max level. Just don't complain that you dont have enough to do when you get there. It's OK if you only play a few hours a week. Don't expect to be as far along as those who have more time to play, enjoy your ride also.
Why do we need to cap or dimish exp to stop them getting to max level? let them.. they'll only get bored. Remember Brad's taking a more horiziontal approach.. so restriction isnt needed.
I for one am hoping for a Hardcore server with the hardest of rules. Like more EXP needed to level each level. More HPs on mobs. More stringent penalties for death. The item drops and rare spawns similar to EQ1s length or even more. This will force people farming an item to spend a lot of time working on it. Plus they did mention Factions in-game and I remember working giant/dragon faction taking forever. I believe there will be enough in this game that even if you do balls out to max level it will take months not days. Everquest one was frustrating at times but there was enough built into that game to keep you occupied for years. With all the different classes and the game mechanics with factions and languages and rare spawns and rare triggered and such.
Enitzu said:Dullahan said:Even if you have the gear grinds plotted out, developers can still control the pace and the form that it takes. If developers are smart, there is no "simple work around", because they can tweak variables like spawn rates, drop rates, and level of challenge. And this is only talking soft gating. They could also hard gate content in atmospheres, require different abilities and sets of gear which players would have to collect starting at level 1. They could tie that gear progression directly to level progression for "maximum efficiency", which creates a more natural time sink. There are options for days.
I think most people would rather group up and have to play the game the way it was meant to be played, than feel the need to focus on exp grinding to rush to max. The idea is to discourage ways of playing the game that are monotonous by making them inefficient. That goes for soloing and powerleveling as much as exp grinding.
There are solutions to every problem.
You're absolutely right. There is a solution for everything that people can come up. And as it has happened in every other game, the devs will not be able to cover every single base and they shouldn't have to. Who cares if some group levels to cap in a week and it takes another group a month? Isn't freedom what the game is all about? If 1 person wants to push through and another doesn't, who then is the right one? The majority of things that are being said are personal preference and you guys need to remember that the people on these forums are the "hardcore". These are the people that are going to play no matter what they put in.
The people that we need to look for are the ones that we can bring into the game. The ones on the fence. The game isn't even fully funded yet and we have a long way to go to make that happen. Then after that we need to look at long term financial success which means subs. Without them we don't get regular content updates. We don't expansions. We get nothing. Being (for lack of a better term) pigheaded and unwilling to bend won't help us or the game. The rose colored glasses people are still to this day wearing after god knows how many attempts to recreate 1999 is seriously unbelievable. Nothing will ever give you that feeling again. Nothing. It is completely impossible with the amount of technology today to get the same things that made EQ what it was then.
Back on topic -
"I think most people would rather group up and have to play the game the way it was meant to be played, than feel the need to focus on exp grinding to rush to max."
So people who group up and grind xp are not playing the game then? This logic is flawed. Whether a person plays to level up as their primary goal changes nothing for you or anyone else. Your way is not the only way or the right way. That's why they call it a sandbox.
Actually, my logic here is pretty solid. The reason why you would want to discourage monotonous grinding, is because people tend to do it to get ahead and burn themselves out. They choose to go through the process, and then dub the game "too grindy" because they couldn't quickly achieve their goals while avoiding much of the content. I think it's actually in the developers and the company's best interest to encourage the kind of gameplay that leaves the player feeling like they're having fun.
Enitzu said:"The idea is to discourage ways of playing the game that are monotonous by making them inefficient."
Why? Why would you want to discourage anyone from playing how they want to? Because you don't think it's right? That is your opinion and you don't speak for everyone sir. Some people like to grind. Others prefer to chain dungeon run. Hell a lot perfer instancing, does that make them right and you wrong?
Same as above. It's about what's best for the game and people's perception of the game. No one said people who did it are wrong. You're misrepresenting what I said. What I think is right or wrong is irrelevant, it will be up to the people making it.
Furthermore, allowing or encouraging tedious gameplay is not conducive to making a good game. Players have a tendency of taking the shortest route, even if it's not the most fun. It's also a fallacy to suggest that you must provide ways for players to circumvent your content in order for your game to be sandbox. Every game has mechanics and rules that govern the world somewhere, and it's up to the players to find ways to overcome within the confines of those rules; as it has been in every single sandbox game, ever.
Enitzu said:Regardless of what steps VRI puts into place I can assure you people will have ways around them. It is a fact that happens every time. And when they put something in place to stop them once they realize what is going on they will find another one. Welcome to the modern MMO gaming world. People will take advantage of anything they can to get ahead. Not saying it's right or wrong but it's the truth. Wasting time to build arbitrary walls for them to go around is exactly that, a waste of time.
Of course there will always be a optimized path, but it doesn't mean it has to be easy. Sounds like you won't be happy if you can't hit max in under a week. It should feel like an accomplishment for players; both those who play a lot, and play casually. I'd argue that allowing people to reach cap too quickly will not only discourage both hardcore and casual, but it will put a strain on developers to create content. It's therefore important that they pace progression accordingly.
Im with a few of the people here and im really, really, really confused on why anyone would want to stop someone from rushing to max level? Why in the world do you care what others are doing?
My god, what has the world come to these days. They bought the game just like you did, can we please stop trying to impose playing styles on other people just because it differs from yours?
beautifully said:Im with a few of the people here and im really, really, really confused on why anyone would want to stop someone from rushing to max level? Why in the world do you care what others are doing?
My god, what has the world come to these days. They bought the game just like you did, can we please stop trying to impose playing styles on other people just because it differs from yours?
As I said in the previous post, it's not about stopping players, or even being concerned with what players are doing. It's about what is best for the game, it's reputation, and the players themselves. When you allow players to reach the "end" quickly, that has consequences.
It takes time to create content, and if players aren't utilizing it, that is a problem. If players can reach the end too quickly, it makes the process seem less of an accomplishment (perception). That's huge in a game that claims to be bringing back "a sense of accomplishment." Lastly, it's important because it puts a strain on developers to create new content and keep people playing. I know a lot of people don't remember EQ, but early on they did a great job of pacing development to stay ahead of 95% of the playerbase, which created a perception among players that there was always something new to discover and achieve.
These are all very important, so let's not reduce the argument to something as trivial as envy or people being busybodies.