Nanoushka said: I wouldn't want others slowed down by punishments for their speed. I don't care that others reach max level faster, raid more, get better items etc than me, I play the way I enjoy and that's all that matters to me. I do agree with Dullahan tho, that the pace of the game will determine partly the longevity of the game. It isn't about hampering others, but about creating an experience where people will feel tempted to invest for a long time. An experience where you immerse yourself, feel connected, make friends... If it's too easy, I doubt people will get to that point. I hope it'll take quite a bit of time and effort to level up (I'm with you Evoras on 'years please!' :P), and that it'll be slowed down by natural bumps in the road like Dullahan described. It would only increase the attachment to the game I'd think, achieving something really counts if it doesn't come easily. Otherwise it's a rather shallow and shortlived experience. I'm hoping Pantheon will be my game for the next many years to come. I'm in no rush to be done with it, quite the opposite. From what I've read I'm hardly alone in that sentiment. I hope they'll dare frustrate us and make us work for what we want :).
I think I play pretty much like you Nanoushka, I would much rather go at a slower pace, I am hoping that Pantheon ends up being many tiered, and that like an onion, you have to make the effort to find all the layers. Instead of peeling off the first and last layers. Kind of like reading a book. I never read the last page til I get there. :P I don't like spoilers, never have. In a way I am a completionist too I think. :) So all you "beat the game" folks...I'll see you when I get there. :) And most of all have fun.
NEXTLEVL said: Enitzu, Zewtastic was not referring to player skill. He/she was referring to character skills, such as slashing, crushing, archery, defense, etc.. In older MMO's you had to raise your skills independently from your level.
I'm not so sure that's what Zew was referring to. I played Vanguard and I don't ever remember going out of my way to level any skills once I got to max level. This is usually done as you level. The only time I ever had to spend a significant amount of time to level up a skill in an older MMO was when I had to repeatedly jump off cliffs to get better at safe fall. I do remember needing to level up pierce/crush/archery a little bit because swords were much more common than hammers/spears, but that was done in a relatively quick amount of time and wouldn't be the appropriate context for "all bets are off."
oneADseven said:I disagree. There is a unique sense of satisfaction when it comes to being the first player to "discover" something. That's why there are famous explorers/inventors/scientists/doctors in our history whose names will never be forgotten. There is nothing wrong with "restricting" titles by tying them into one-time accomplishments. Imagine telling Neil Armstrong that although he was the first person to walk on the moon, he could never refer to himself as such or wear any type of badge that highlighted the accomplishment.
For the record, I'm not advocating for titles to the first of each class to level cap. That was always an unofficial accomplishment. I am, however, advocating for "events" that can be saved in guild history. When raid bosses or named NPC's are killed for the first time, it would be cool to see an event in the guild log that can show the achievement. When an item is "discovered" or looted for the first time, I'd like to see a denotation in the guild log that can help commemorate that achievement.
I understand why some players can feel sensitive about "titles" only being awarded to the first person to accomplish something and I'm fine with those not being added to the game. I think an "event" log shown in guild history would be sufficient as a means to preserve those type of accomplishments.
I never disputed there was a sense of accomplishment related to being the first to achieve something, in fact I specifically acknowledged it. There is everything wrong with having titles based on first come first serve in a MMO game. Unlike real life, an MMO needs to take measures to prolong its life span, and Having speed based accomplishments as an officially acknowledged title or server message only serves to create an environment promoting a power gamer mentality, that shortens the life span.
Some people are going to do it regardless, but it should not be something that is promoted.
I’d like to point out though that a Personal log or Guild log as you suggested is not the same as what I'm talking about, Keeping track of your personal or your guilds achievements and when you/they first did something is not the same as promoting being the first to do it. Personal or Guild logs are perfectly fine in my opinion since they only keep track of events and when they happened, nothing more.
I think server firsts are an accomplishment, regardless if it shortens the lifespan for some MMO players who may experience burnout as a result or not; however, I do not like having a developer sponsored website advertising the server firsts.
I think there should be some lore library etc. that would record all the information versus having an external website. Someone most likely would create a 3rd party one anyway, but, many wouldn't take the time to go read the books or journals in game etc. Anyway, give reasons for players to go back to starting cities outside of selling items/banking to interact with newbies etc. and progress will organically slow down, but, as I stated previously, there's no way to completely stop a power leveler, nor would I want artificial systems created to do so.
HemlockReaper said:...Having speed based accomplishments as an officially acknowledged title or server message only serves to create an environment promoting a power gamer mentality, that shortens the life span.
Some people are going to do it regardless, but it should not be something that is promoted...
I like this stance on the argument. Developers should not do anything to actively incentivize a playstyle that's not healthy for the game's longevity (and their bottom line). As with the rest of you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hunting for server firsts, as it is something that I've done in the past and can be a lot of fun. However, in every game where I've sought out server firsts, it wasn't a healthy playstyle for me as a person or for my enjoyment of the game long term.
NEXTLEVL said: Enitzu, Zewtastic was not referring to player skill. He/she was referring to character skills, such as slashing, crushing, archery, defense, etc.. In older MMO's you had to raise your skills independently from your level.
Regarding either will not take months of time. Leveling skills even in early EQ was a days work. The whole sentiment that it will take months to get a character up to speed is farfetched. People are trying to look at things as they remember them rather than how they really were. It's not 1999-2005 anymore. Technology has come a long way as has player skill and determination. Hell just the amount of information available makes things 100 times easier than they were back then.
Ainadak said:HemlockReaper said:...Having speed based accomplishments as an officially acknowledged title or server message only serves to create an environment promoting a power gamer mentality, that shortens the life span.
Some people are going to do it regardless, but it should not be something that is promoted...
I like this stance on the argument. Developers should not do anything to actively incentivize a playstyle that's not healthy for the game's longevity (and their bottom line). As with the rest of you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hunting for server firsts, as it is something that I've done in the past and can be a lot of fun. However, in every game where I've sought out server firsts, it wasn't a healthy playstyle for me as a person or for my enjoyment of the game long term.
Of course, that's operating under the assumption that it is a "playstyle that's not health for the game's longevity (and their bottom line)". You so much as mentioned in the last sentence that this your experience.
It varies, but it's not entirely the style of play itself responsible for a lack of longevity, and more a design issue. If the game lacks content or is designed to allow players to circumvent that content and go straight to the end, that is what will lead to poor longevity. It's essential that the game encourage players to look beyond vertical or level progression to advance, and that those forms take time. People can talk about "too grindy" all they want, but on the other side of the spectrum, MMOs are suffering en masse for being too short-lived to establish a player attachment to the world, as well as a sense of community.
That said, forcing people to do what's referred to as "bad grind" to get ahead can lead to a negative perception of the game, and lead to people leaving as well. The goal should be to find the sweet spot where content is varied enough to feel fresh, while also requiring enough time to allow players to become engaged and committed.
I don't believe it's a matter of circumventing the content. Most theme parks these days require you to go through all the content (and there's lots of it), but they still are a lot faster to get to max level than older MMOs. It really is a matter of making the leveling slow and having severe dealth penalties. Those who group and play a lot will get to max level fairly quickly. I don't think that is a fun way to play, but to each their own. I don't have a group of friends who want to take turns playing one character, but even if I did I doubt I would. My plan is to allow those who want to spend all day every day playing and getting to certain points first their fun in doing so. I'll just take my time and try to enjoy myself. There may be days where I play a lot of hours, but it's unlikely to be in an intense and competitive fashion unless someone is trying to kill steal from me or something of that nature.
UnknownQuantity said:I don't believe it's a matter of circumventing the content. Most theme parks these days require you to go through all the content (and there's lots of it), but they still are a lot faster to get to max level than older MMOs. It really is a matter of making the leveling slow and having severe dealth penalties. Those who group and play a lot will get to max level fairly quickly. I don't think that is a fun way to play, but to each their own. I don't have a group of friends who want to take turns playing one character, but even if I did I doubt I would. My plan is to allow those who want to spend all day every day playing and getting to certain points first their fun in doing so. I'll just take my time and try to enjoy myself. There may be days where I play a lot of hours, but it's unlikely to be in an intense and competitive fashion unless someone is trying to kill steal from me or something of that nature.
That part was more relevant to a non-linear themepark like EQ. You're right though, games these days just don't take long enough. You don't really avoid content, you just fly through it on rails with minimal time commitment.
Ainadak said:HemlockReaper said:...Having speed based accomplishments as an officially acknowledged title or server message only serves to create an environment promoting a power gamer mentality, that shortens the life span.
Some people are going to do it regardless, but it should not be something that is promoted...
I like this stance on the argument. Developers should not do anything to actively incentivize a playstyle that's not healthy for the game's longevity (and their bottom line). As with the rest of you, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hunting for server firsts, as it is something that I've done in the past and can be a lot of fun. However, in every game where I've sought out server firsts, it wasn't a healthy playstyle for me as a person or for my enjoyment of the game long term.
Agreed. Firsts will get reported, blogged, talked about both in-game and via forums as it is. Fostering gameplay that focuses on the tenets and the specific intention of gameplay designed for Pantheon should be enculturated and embraced.
Back to the OP; I still believe that gameplay from level 1 to max level should be dense, slow, dynamic and engaging. I really don't want to have several maxed level characters in the first year, let alone the first 6 months as I did in GW2. Beautiful game that only got 1.5 yrs out of me. No thanks.
Aradune said:Great discussion. There are actually several entries in the new FAQ (coming late next week) that address this issue as well.
Are you sure the updated FAQ hasn't already been posted? It seems to me like it's quite a bit more robust now compared to the last time I checked it. I would be very happy if there is more yet to come.
oneADseven said:Aradune said:Great discussion. There are actually several entries in the new FAQ (coming late next week) that address this issue as well.
Are you sure the updated FAQ hasn't already been posted? It seems to me like it's quite a bit more robust now compared to the last time I checked it. I would be very happy if there is more yet to come.
This is true -- we did a quick update and added questions and answers from the AMA. But we have an even larger update hopefully mid-next week and so didn't make a big deal out of the first update (thanks for noticing though :) )
Aradune said:oneADseven said:Aradune said:Great discussion. There are actually several entries in the new FAQ (coming late next week) that address this issue as well.
Are you sure the updated FAQ hasn't already been posted? It seems to me like it's quite a bit more robust now compared to the last time I checked it. I would be very happy if there is more yet to come.
This is true -- we did a quick update and added questions and answers from the AMA. But we have an even larger update hopefully mid-next week and so didn't make a big deal out of the first update (thanks for noticing though :) )
MORE content to digest? Yaaaaay! There has been so much speculation going on the past couple weeks ... some clarity on those topics would be great. Looking forward to the update either way. Thank you. =D
oneADseven said:Aradune said:oneADseven said:Aradune said:Great discussion. There are actually several entries in the new FAQ (coming late next week) that address this issue as well.
Are you sure the updated FAQ hasn't already been posted? It seems to me like it's quite a bit more robust now compared to the last time I checked it. I would be very happy if there is more yet to come.
This is true -- we did a quick update and added questions and answers from the AMA. But we have an even larger update hopefully mid-next week and so didn't make a big deal out of the first update (thanks for noticing though :) )
MORE content to digest? Yaaaaay! There has been so much speculation going on the past couple weeks ... some clarity on those topics would be great. Looking forward to the update either way. Thank you. =D
This update is pretty beefy, so I hope you guys enjoy :)
Nice to hear that the devs seem to have the heart set on the same vision that I share: challenge, lateral progression, and a slow pace! There's a million other games that do it the other way. It's nice to have a game where the devs don't succumb to pressure from the ezmode guys.
The "sweet spot" of content relvolves around three principles: challenge, progression, and speed of consumption. For most games, levelling is the main focus of progression. The speed at which you progress and the challenge of the content determines how quickly you consume the content. If the content is too easy, but the levelling is slow... you get grind. If the content is challenging, but the levelling is too fast... you get nothing to do. Either of those causes players to move on to other games.
The mistake a lot of games make is considering their "end-game" content as the focus of progression, especially so for expansions. This may hold true to some extent for raiders, but not for the majority of players. Additionally, they make the mistake of considering replayable content at higher difficulty as an acceptable form of both challenge and speed of consumption.
Looking at past games, it's easy to see why most of us prefer the EQ model. Guild Wars 2 had decent challenge, but horrid progression. You often reached the "peak" of your progression by 30-40th level (max level 80) and reaching 30th level was a matter of days (possibly weeks if your first character). So outside of trying new characters to start the progression over, you would consume the main focus of the content within a few weeks of starting the game. World of Warcraft handled this quite a bit better. It had decent challenge and decent progression. Same with EQ2. They still had the problem of hitting "peak" progression early on in the levelling cycle, but it took a couple months instead of weeks.
Rift was the first game I realized I didn't have to play these newer games like the original EQ. When I hit 30th level in Rift (about 2-3 weeks in), I stopped buying new equipment, stopped crafting and just pushed as hard as I could for max. Within another week I had hit max and blown past 80% of the content in the game. You can argue this is my fault, and in a way it was; but the game offered too little challenge for achieving the main focus of progression. Every game/expansion since, blowing through levels was easy and pretty much a grind.
Contrast that to EQ. When I first started EQ, it took a month to get out of Nektulos forest. That was ~10th level and one zone. In most other games, you hit 20-30th level, hit your stride and just blow through to max. Hitting 20 in EQ was an accomplishment... and it only got better from there. Maybe that's rose-colored nostalgia, but there are so many instances/situations I remember from EQ that are a blur in every other game.
Archaen said:Contrast that to EQ. When I first started EQ, it took a month to get out of Nektulos forest. That was ~10th level and one zone. In most other games, you hit 20-30th level, hit your stride and just blow through to max. Hitting 20 in EQ was an accomplishment... and it only got better from there. Maybe that's rose-colored nostalgia, but there are so many instances/situations I remember from EQ that are a blur in every other game.
I think that is why many of us are here right now. Some of my fondest memories from EQ were the leveling moments. Leveling and slowly progressing through dungeons to higher camps in Blackburrow, Crushbone, Unrest, Mistmoore, Guk, et cetera. Leveling was fun as hell and you had tons of options even then as to where/how you wanted to go about it.
There should be so many different things to do in Terminus, that leveling your class is only a minor reflection of a characters projected power. A few thoughts on various systems that could be in game:
1) Deities and Religion -- A system to advance your favor with your chosen deity.
2) Gathering -- A system to obtain raw materials from different environments that does not directly rely upon combat.
3) Hunting -- A system to obtain raw materials from locating and slaying various npcs/creatures.
4) Camping -- A system for obtaining desirable items by investing time and effort into locating and defeating identified npcs/creatures.
5) Faction -- A system for adjusting your reputation with hundreds of different sects within the world.
6) Crafting -- A system for creating items from raw materials.
7) Farming -- A system for increasing your wealth.
8) Leveling -- A system for increasing your inate class power.
9) Questing -- A system for interacting and learning more about the lore of the world, while at the same time obtaining something of value upon completion.
10) Unlocking -- A system for opening up new parts of Terminus which are initially not accessible.
11) Trading -- A system for generating wealth by selling items, buffs, or assisting with travel.
12) Achievments -- A system that provides recognition or status upon successful completion.
13) Raiding -- A system that encourages a large contingent of players to work together to defeat challenging content.
These are just some examples of systems that could and hopefully will be incorporated into Pantheon. The point is, if you decide your going to spend all of your time solely fixated on leveling up to max level, then there will be consquences and tradeoffs to your characters ability to project power and status within the gaming world. Well designed games foster environments whereby leveling is a natural by-product of participating in all of the above systems.