That would certainly throw any argument based on realism out of the window if nothing else. I'm not sure what the relative density of copper to gold is but I have a strong suspicion it's not 10:1. I'm mostly being facetious here. It seems like we're going awfully far to mitigate the effect of coin weight on gameplay, assuming it was included to begin with.
Trasak said:I will second the consept on not liking all mobs having pocket change. Some mobs like bandits and other humanoids with pockets or the occasional ooze that ate an adventurer it makes perfect sense but I would rather see mobs having rare drop "harvest" items that can be traded with NPCs for cash or traded to crafters for goods or cash. This would require a pretty robust crafting system. Something like a leather vest made from wolfhide has one set of stats, from rhinos another and drake a third. Don't get me started on the crafting system as I go nuts over them.
Trasak
P.S. 187 totally ninja posted me almost point for point
From what I have gaathered thus far, they plan on having a pretty robust crafting system. Unfortunately, none of us knows what that looks like yet.
This isn’t a deal breaker for me either way. But, I’m for coin having weight because it’s more real to me. Thats all. That’s the same reason I want travel time to be long. It’s more real to me. Sure long travel time is going to deter some players, and to me that’s ok. We know that some mechanics that will make it into Pantheon will deter some players. We accept that and most of us prefer it. I want a colddark steel helmet to weigh more than a leather helm. That’s real to me. We want food in the game. Why? It adds realism. That’s all it does. If everybody can buy and afford food and drink, why include it in game. It takes up bag space and adds weight. What for? I could put a dropped chest plate in the same slot I have 10 sandwiches. If we’re going to take out the small frustrations in order to make the game easier to play, then why don’t we make it easier to play and take out food, and equipment weight altogether. We know we’ll All be able to carry stuff. Why not start out with four bags of holding to reduce weight, then we can eliminate trips home. That eliminates a needless part of game play. It makes Pantheon easier and there will be more subs. I can spend more time in dungeons, if I start with some bags of holding. I’m all for making the monthly sub $25 - $50/month. I can afford it. Why not do it. Sure it’ll drop the sub base some but what the hell, some people will be turned off and not sub up. Arguing that a certain feature will add or reduce subs can be argued either way. I want everything in game that’s real except pooping. I want pubs where I can play cards and win/lose coin. It’s more real to me. I want most content to need groups, it’s more real. The idea that I could solo most mobs is easier, but most don’t want that either.
It doesen't need to be 100% black or white Questaar. The goal is to pick and choose which old nuisances are required to make a fun, social, cooperative and challenging game. If you feel that coin weight adds to that, please feel free to share how you think it does. I understand your preference on things being realistic but I could come up with 100+ topics by the end of the night that are realistic but have no business in an MMO. I am not faulting your opinion at all ... I just think it makes sense to look at things from a broad perspective. If 10 players feel the added realism is beneficial but 20 players dislike it, is it really worth implementing? Adding and retaining subscriptions should always be a strong consideration ... I don't expect VR to just cave in and make everything easy mode, but rather pick and choose battles for the overall health and growth potential of the game. Let's usher in a new era of gamers that can appreciate a hardcore MMO without scaring people off with unneccessary tedium.
Some examples of realism that I would never want to see:
Female cycles that attract wolves.
Eating/Drinking taking actual time to consume. Utensils should be required and also have a weight factor.
Characters become fatigued after running for more than a few minutes and progressively slowing down until they rest.
Random illnesses such as migraines or tummy problems that hinder your functionality.
Dying of natural causes.
Getting sued because you hurt someone's feelings.
Getting sued because of medical malpractice (healers)
Needing 6-8 hours of sleep, in a bed, every night.
Lack of fantasy creatures/races/architecture/spells/lore.
Paying multiple forms of taxes or being imprisoned.
Having to read an entire quest dialogue at a slow pace (like Vanilla WoW)
This list could go on forever. You can add any variety of these to original EQ and I guarantee there would be people on here saying they would want to see it return because of the realism factor or because they have an associated memory. There would also be plenty of people who want nothing to do with any of it that are banking on a modern MMO that focuses on a balance of fun, challenge, cooperation and social engagement.
One of the things that I think is hilarious is all of the people going "Oh my God!! No!! Encumbrance!! I will have to destroy cp, sp, anf gp like it's going out of style!!" Well, no. That will be several months to over a year into the game before you have so much money that you're not scraping and saving every cp just to get food, drink, spells, gear, etc. By the time that we get to the levels where cp, sp, and gp are "throw away", we will have better means to overcome encumbrance. This game isn't going to be like WoW where you're going to rush through levels and have top tier gear in a week.
You will need food. You will need water. You will need multiple sets of armor (situational). You will need multiple sets of weapons (situational). All of this stuff is going to cost money. Sure, some will drop, but some is also going to be purchased. I am sure that spells are going to cost money. I seriously doubt, at low level, we're going to be running around with so much cash in our "pockets" that encumbrance is going to be much of an issue.
Which makes it even worse because rather than being able to save time and unload meaningless copper, people have to run to a vendor every 20 minutes to get into the silver/gold tax break. Most players won't because it's super inefficient, so they'll watch loot or currency rot while they are at the poorest point of their character life. It's like being smacked with a cold dose or reality while you're playing a video game ... just because.
@Kalok
I don't buy that at all. Castle Mistmoore is a level 20-30ish zone where mobs drop Fine Steel weapons that sell for as much as 8p a piece. People will likely have hundreds if not thousands of the highest currency denomination within the first month. There's a huge difference between "this game will be like WoW" and claiming it will take a literal year for people to have a non-trivial amount of money. This is very far removed from reality imo.
Instead of referring to extremes on either side we should probably look where observable reality is. If P99 were wiped clean today and a new server popped up, people would be max level within a week or two with hundreds or thousands of plat at their disposal within a month.
The game you're talking about would have to be on the order of 5-10x as difficult as the EQ leveling experience, and that just isn't happening.
oneADseven said:It doesen't need to be 100% black or white Questaar. The goal is to pick and choose which old nuisances are required to make a fun, social, cooperative and challenging game. If you feel that coin weight adds to that, please feel free to share how you think it does. I understand your preference on things being realistic but I could come up with 100+ topics by the end of the night that are realistic but have no business in an MMO. I am not faulting your opinion at all ... I just think it makes sense to look at things from a broad perspective. If 10 players feel the added realism is beneficial but 20 players dislike it, is it really worth implementing? Adding and retaining subscriptions should always be a strong consideration ... I don't expect VR to just cave in and make everything easy mode, but rather pick and choose battles for the overall health and growth potential of the game. Let's usher in a new era of gamers that can appreciate a hardcore MMO without scaring people off with unneccessary tedium.
This in theory sound good. And likely in this paid forum it could hold true. But one day the four will go public and it will be flooded with players screaming for FTP and a Cash Shop.
What is relevant is the Devs vision for Pantheon, not our votes. When fast travel, group finders, etc were implemented I'm pretty confident the majority was in favor of all of those choices.
We simply offer alternate points of view to feed the developer's thoughts.
Wandidar said:You know, an interesting thing here is that in a very real sense, coin weight is a different version of things that this communtiy adamantly argues in favor of. For example, travel. By and large, I think it's fair to say that the majority of this community wants meaningful travel. But what is meaningful travel? It's a time sink that may or may not offer challenges. A time sink that makes you interact with the world AND perhaps the community of players in the world. You gain NO advancement from the game because you ran for an hour to get from point A to point B. In fact, from a pure game perspective, you probably lost out... becuase instead of doing something to advance your character, you were running.
What is coin weight? In the end, like travel, it's a time sink. It's something in the world you have to deal with (the weight of the coins is making you move slow, etc...). To deal with it, you have to go somewhere (a bank), or interact with someone in your community (trade with someone)... or buy something from a vendonr... or abandon it entirely by dropping it on the ground. Dealing with coin weight gains you no advancement from the game. In fact, you probably lost out... because time you could have spent advancing your character, was instead spent dealing with the coin.
Which sort of raises an interesting question. Why do we absolutly WANT some time sinks that provide no measurable in game gain of any sort, and absolutely NOT want others? Interesing for (I think) a very important reason... that being that I think the the proper choice of such time sinks by the developers may really elevate the game, while improper choices may harm i
Well think of it this way you have a good group going, things are going great and than your tank gets overburdened with coin, and he decides to go to the bank, and it took him 20 minutes to get tot he bank, and 20 minutes back, more than likely everyone will try to replace him or he will just leave the group knowing its going to take quite a bit or time before he gets back, this is unfair to both the player that it is happening to and also unfair to the group simply becuase he became overburdened with coin, some thing like traveling is completely unavoidable, but something like money weighing something is just the biggest troll move a game can offer.
Liav said:@Kalok
I don't buy that at all. Castle Mistmoore is a level 20-30ish zone where mobs drop Fine Steel weapons that sell for as much as 8p a piece. People will likely have hundreds if not thousands of the highest currency denomination within the first month. There's a huge difference between "this game will be like WoW" and claiming it will take a literal year for people to have a non-trivial amount of money. This is very far removed from reality imo.
Instead of referring to extremes on either side we should probably look where observable reality is. If P99 were wiped clean today and a new server popped up, people would be max level within a week or two with hundreds or thousands of plat at their disposal within a month.
The game you're talking about would have to be on the order of 5-10x as difficult as the EQ leveling experience, and that just isn't happening.
When did you start playing EQ? Because that absolutely was not the case in EQ circa 1999ish unless you had someone power-leveling you. If you didn't have someone power-leveling you, you were probably getting one to two levels a week, tops.
In EQ cira 1999ish, MMOs were essentially a brand new concept. I can't reasonably expect that the circumstances of the times are going to apply now.
This is why I used P99 in my example. It's the most accurate recreation of the original EQ experience, yet many things that applied in 1999 do not apply now. What explanation is there for that other than we now have two decades of experience with games of this type to draw on?
Liav said:In EQ cira 1999ish, MMOs were essentially a brand new concept. I can't reasonably expect that the circumstances of the times are going to apply now.
This is why I used P99 in my example. It's the most accurate recreation of the original EQ experience, yet many things that applied in 1999 do not apply now. What explanation is there for that other than we now have two decades of experience with games of this type to draw on?
Actually, it can reaspnably be applied given that Brad and Co have already stated that that is EXACTLY the sort of experience that they are looking to re-create in multiple threads and Twitch streams. The old "you have to bust your ass to get there" experience of the original EQ. Not some power-leveling game like WoW and the modern ilk.
OneADseven,
Once again, you are logical, and you are right, in that there are solid reasons not to have coin weight, and other things (loving suing for wrongful death btw,) many of which you have listed.That’s why it is absolutely not a deal breaker for me, as I stated first thing. I think needing to go to a city banker increases interaction with other players and npcs. Makes cities useful. I think that’s a good thing. You and I have different play styles. Neither, in my mind is inferior to the other. I still want Pantheon to be as real as a high fantasy game can be. Something I would have but will NOT be in game is item degradation. To me that’s real and I want to play a blacksmith crafter. It’s real that stuff will need fixing. Not gonna happen. People have different play styles. To me you are a tier one high end player and I am a tier two more casual player, even though I want 90% the same game as you. I want a mount someday, because there are horses, in real life, but I don’t want to have a Pegasus because it helps skip content. It seems to me, You will raid far more often and outpace me in levels quickly. Example...in EQ I got to the Planes of Time with my guild well over a year (two?) after it was conquered by tier one guilds and they had moved on. There were times in EQ when my guild let lower level players tag along, ungrouped, sometimes invized, just to get high end vendor trash or no drop drops we already had, just to help someone gear up. And that persisted throughout EQ. What if some low level guy tagged along under your groups protection and got some of the extra silver. Sort of like a valet. It’s a little like real world semi-twinking. I can only appeal to what seems real to me. I have no other argument, which might not be good enough. I will undoubtably play Pantheon for a long time also. I want food and drink in game and not plates and utensils. I do want there to be pubs, in game, where I can be great meals, that last longer than sandwiches. I want player made food that’s better than pub food. I think a player without food should get hungry and have their strength diminished, just cuz it’s real to me. Makes it important to plan ahead. I want corpse runs, and I do think that a year after launch there will be people who will want Pantheon to go free to play, and have insta travel. I will never be among them. I really like reading the different comments and viewpoints people have on Pantheon. The passion for the game will keep it great.
Kalok said:Actually, it can reaspnably be applied given that Brad and Co have already stated that that is EXACTLY the sort of experience that they are looking to re-create in multiple threads and Twitch streams. The old "you have to bust your ass to get there" experience of the original EQ. Not some power-leveling game like WoW and the modern ilk.
You're missing the point, I think. I don't know how much more precisely I can state things. You can not erase 20 years of MMO experience from people's minds. If you teleported us back in time to 1999 it would not be the same experience.
Zorkon said:oneADseven said:It doesen't need to be 100% black or white Questaar. The goal is to pick and choose which old nuisances are required to make a fun, social, cooperative and challenging game. If you feel that coin weight adds to that, please feel free to share how you think it does. I understand your preference on things being realistic but I could come up with 100+ topics by the end of the night that are realistic but have no business in an MMO. I am not faulting your opinion at all ... I just think it makes sense to look at things from a broad perspective. If 10 players feel the added realism is beneficial but 20 players dislike it, is it really worth implementing? Adding and retaining subscriptions should always be a strong consideration ... I don't expect VR to just cave in and make everything easy mode, but rather pick and choose battles for the overall health and growth potential of the game. Let's usher in a new era of gamers that can appreciate a hardcore MMO without scaring people off with unneccessary tedium.
This in theory sound good. And likely in this paid forum it could hold true. But one day the four will go public and it will be flooded with players screaming for FTP and a Cash Shop.
What is relevant is the Devs vision for Pantheon, not our votes. When fast travel, group finders, etc were implemented I'm pretty confident the majority was in favor of all of those choices.
We simply offer alternate points of view to feed the developer's thoughts.
Totally understand that and I don't fault anybody for sharing their point of view. When it comes to discussing a specific mechanic/feature of yesteryear, though, we should ask the question that is alluded to at the end of Q2 in the FAQ. Is it needed to make a fun, social, cooperative and challenging game? It's specifically mentioned that certain mechanics teetered more towards being boring or repetitive, and that the goal is to see what is or is not needed. If we look at conversations like this through that lense it should be much easier to have a healthy debate. Wanting something because it's realistic or because someone has a memory of it from EQ doesen't substantiate any of the positive elements they are specifically looking for.
I'm not saying that there is any sort of consensus that has popped up on this thread. It seems to be somewhat split, so it's probably worthy of another look. At the same time, though, we need to consider that the majority of people on this forum are the oldschool gamers that are already sold on Pantheon. We need to consider the new era of gamers ... will they buy into it? I have seen a ton of people make comments on here that Pantheon is being made for a very niche market but that isn't true. It's been stated many times that VR is looking to provide a home for oldschool players while also ushering in a new era of gamers that can appreciate this style of gameplay. As with most things, there needs to be a balance, and we need to pick our battles.
Kalok said:Liav said:In EQ cira 1999ish, MMOs were essentially a brand new concept. I can't reasonably expect that the circumstances of the times are going to apply now.
This is why I used P99 in my example. It's the most accurate recreation of the original EQ experience, yet many things that applied in 1999 do not apply now. What explanation is there for that other than we now have two decades of experience with games of this type to draw on?
Actually, it can reaspnably be applied given that Brad and Co have already stated that that is EXACTLY the sort of experience that they are looking to re-create in multiple threads and Twitch streams. The old "you have to bust your ass to get there" experience of the original EQ. Not some power-leveling game like WoW and the modern ilk.
To give the EXACT same experience is basically impossible to achieve, for one EQ was a new experience for basically everyone playing it, or the whole looking for loot, making money, adventuring to zones, basically everything was so foreign to us that it took time to adjust. its 2017 all of us know pretty much exactly what to do to advance, we are going to be more agressive in our adventures, finding dungeons, camping namers, and finding spots that might give decent money. so all in all becuase we are "better" players than 1999 players a lot of this cant be related to what we will be doing in 2017
Liav said:Kalok said:Actually, it can reaspnably be applied given that Brad and Co have already stated that that is EXACTLY the sort of experience that they are looking to re-create in multiple threads and Twitch streams. The old "you have to bust your ass to get there" experience of the original EQ. Not some power-leveling game like WoW and the modern ilk.
You're missing the point, I think. I don't know how much more precisely I can state things. You can not erase 20 years of MMO experience from people's minds. If you teleported us back in time to 1999 it would not be the same experience.
Your missing the point. 20 years of MMO advancement are NOT going to help you level faster if the game mechanics don't support it.
Riahuf22 said:Kalok said:Liav said:In EQ cira 1999ish, MMOs were essentially a brand new concept. I can't reasonably expect that the circumstances of the times are going to apply now.
This is why I used P99 in my example. It's the most accurate recreation of the original EQ experience, yet many things that applied in 1999 do not apply now. What explanation is there for that other than we now have two decades of experience with games of this type to draw on?
Actually, it can reaspnably be applied given that Brad and Co have already stated that that is EXACTLY the sort of experience that they are looking to re-create in multiple threads and Twitch streams. The old "you have to bust your ass to get there" experience of the original EQ. Not some power-leveling game like WoW and the modern ilk.
To give the EXACT same experience is basically impossible to achieve, for one EQ was a new experience for basically everyone playing it, or the whole looking for loot, making money, adventuring to zones, basically everything was so foreign to us that it took time to adjust. its 2017 all of us know pretty much exactly what to do to advance, we are going to be more agressive in our adventures, finding dungeons, camping namers, and finding spots that might give decent money. so all in all becuase we are "better" players than 1999 players a lot of this cant be related to what we will be doing in 2017
And yet iif the game mechanics are similar to the original EQ of the Kunark days, no matter how "experienced" you are, you are only going to level as fast as the game mechanics allow for.
They have already said that they are lookign to re-create that experience as much as possible. Needing to eat and drink to remain "healthy", which in this case means unencumbered. Death having a penalty. Time consuming travel. The whole nine yards.
If that weren't the case, you wouldn't see as many "old school" EQers commenting on these threads and as active as there are. In this case, by "old school EQer", I mean the guys that were playing back in the Kunark and Scars of Velious days. Pre-PoP... Pre EQOA....
This is the experience that VR has said that they want to re-create.
Kalok said:Your missing the point. 20 years of MMO advancement are NOT going to help you level faster if the game mechanics don't support it.
I don't believe this at all. For this to be true, you'd have to be suggesting that everyone will somehow end up at a baseline of playing ability going into Pantheon. I assure you that is not the case.
There are a ton of skills that translate equally between MMOs and players tend to play the game at the same level regardless of what game they are playing. Someone with a very high level of play in WoW isn't going to play a new MMO and be terrible at it. 90% of the skillset is already there. High level players from other games are already forming guilds and creating strategies for their success in Pantheon. I guarantee you that the highest level players from other games who approach this game will be just as high level if not higher level players when they play Pantheon.
Kalok said:Riahuf22 said:Kalok said:Liav said:In EQ cira 1999ish, MMOs were essentially a brand new concept. I can't reasonably expect that the circumstances of the times are going to apply now.
This is why I used P99 in my example. It's the most accurate recreation of the original EQ experience, yet many things that applied in 1999 do not apply now. What explanation is there for that other than we now have two decades of experience with games of this type to draw on?
Actually, it can reaspnably be applied given that Brad and Co have already stated that that is EXACTLY the sort of experience that they are looking to re-create in multiple threads and Twitch streams. The old "you have to bust your ass to get there" experience of the original EQ. Not some power-leveling game like WoW and the modern ilk.
To give the EXACT same experience is basically impossible to achieve, for one EQ was a new experience for basically everyone playing it, or the whole looking for loot, making money, adventuring to zones, basically everything was so foreign to us that it took time to adjust. its 2017 all of us know pretty much exactly what to do to advance, we are going to be more agressive in our adventures, finding dungeons, camping namers, and finding spots that might give decent money. so all in all becuase we are "better" players than 1999 players a lot of this cant be related to what we will be doing in 2017
And yet iif the game mechanics are similar to the original EQ of the Kunark days, no matter how "experienced" you are, you are only going to level as fast as the game mechanics allow for.
They have already said that they are lookign to re-create that experience as much as possible. Needing to eat and drink to remain "healthy", which in this case means unencumbered. Death having a penalty. Time consuming travel. The whole nine yards.
If that weren't the case, you wouldn't see as many "old school" EQers commenting on these threads and as active as there are. In this case, by "old school EQer", I mean the guys that were playing back in the Kunark and Scars of Velious days. Pre-PoP... Pre EQOA....
This is the experience that VR has said that they want to re-create.
Which is fine, and you can keep all of that "experience " while having coin not weighing anything, in fact you would experience it more becuase you didnt have to go back to the bank to deposit coin, or delete it, or drop it, you gain absolutely nothing from this, but lose a lot.
Liav said:Kalok said:Your missing the point. 20 years of MMO advancement are NOT going to help you level faster if the game mechanics don't support it.
I don't believe this at all. For this to be true, you'd have to be suggesting that everyone will somehow end up at a baseline of playing ability going into Pantheon. I assure you that is not the case.
There are a ton of skills that translate equally between MMOs and players tend to play the game at the same level regardless of what game they are playing. Someone with a very high level of play in WoW isn't going to play a new MMO and be terrible at it. 90% of the skillset is already there. High level players from other games are already forming guilds and creating strategies for their success in Pantheon. I guarantee you that the highest level players from other games who approach this game will be just as high level if not higher level players when they play Pantheon.
Are you being intentionally obtuse, or am I not explaining myself that well??
You can be the most bitchen uber whatever class you choose to play, and you're only going to level up as fast as the game allows you to. That game mechanic will outweight your "20 years of MMO advancement" every time. They have already stated that this is going to be like "old school" EQ. Not like EQ2. Not like Vanguard. Not like P99 (whatever that is). Not like WoW. Like EQ. Like old EQ pre-PoP.
You and I are beating this to death. Neither of us know how it is going to be when it actually rolls out. I am taking my information from VR's own words and your taking yours from the context of other games. We will *BOTH* see what the reality is when it gets to that point.