Kalok said:Let me guess, you want to game to level you while you sleep too..... By your logic, neither cold, heat, nor hunger should encumer you either.... Except that they have said that they will. If you wwant a game that is trivial to play, there's always WoW. Inveentory management is part of the game. They've already said that you are going to need to have situational gear with you. Welcome to inventory management 101.
The POINT of coins having weight isn't to troll people. It was just a fun, anecdotal, thing to do. The POINT of coins having weight is to FORCE inventory management. You should not be able to carry unlimited everything on you at all times.
Absolutely. I want to be max level, have full best in slot gear, and have access to GM instakill commands the moment I create a new character. Clearly all of these things can be reasonably extrapolated from my distaste for coins having weight.
Coin weight is an example I would cite of needlessly injecting "difficulty". (I use quotes here because there is nothing difficult about it, it's just annoying and means you constantly have to bank things).
EQ is the only game I've played out of dozens of MMOs where coins had weight. Are you trying to tell me that every other MMO in existence is trivial because it is lacking this absolutely crucial mechanic?
Not a fan of coin weight at all. I'll be playing an ogre warrior with plenty of strength to spare but this just doesen't seem like a worthwhile mechanic. Glad I never had to deal with something like this in the other games I played. It doesen't sound fun, it sounds really annoying.
Liav said:Kalok said:Let me guess, you want to game to level you while you sleep too..... By your logic, neither cold, heat, nor hunger should encumer you either.... Except that they have said that they will. If you wwant a game that is trivial to play, there's always WoW. Inveentory management is part of the game. They've already said that you are going to need to have situational gear with you. Welcome to inventory management 101.
The POINT of coins having weight isn't to troll people. It was just a fun, anecdotal, thing to do. The POINT of coins having weight is to FORCE inventory management. You should not be able to carry unlimited everything on you at all times.
Absolutely. I want to be max level, have full best in slot gear, and have access to GM instakill commands the moment I create a new character. Clearly all of these things can be reasonably extrapolated from my distaste for coins having weight.
Coin weight is an example I would cite of needlessly injecting "difficulty". (I use quotes here because there is nothing difficult about it, it's just annoying and means you constantly have to bank things).
EQ is the only game I've played out of dozens of MMOs where coins had weight. Are you trying to tell me that every other MMO in existence is trivial because it is lacking this absolutely crucial mechanic?
that is absolutely what I am saying. There is no logocal reason to make them not have weight. The amount of weight that coins have is negligible unless you tend to carry boatload of them with you. You can, literally, carry enough money on you to buy pretty much anything in the game without encumberance, so yeah. The amount of coins you would need to carry would be stupid high. So there is absolutely no logical reason for coins to weigh nothing. By that same logic, weapons should weight nothing. Armor? Nah. Shouldn''t have weight. Food? Shouldn't weight a thing. Same for water.
Where do ypou draw the line? There is no legitimate reason to have them weightless except "I don't wanna".
See, this is where I'm confused.
Why would you start with "this mechanic exists, tell me why it shouldn't" instead of "this mechanic doesn't exist, tell me why it should".
It seems completely backwards to me to include things in the game by default then try to justify why they shouldn't be there. There's way more precedent in MMOs for weight to not be a thing than for it to be a thing. EQ is literally the only game I know of that has done it, and based on that alone you want to include it?
There's nothing "logical" about this. I don't know what definition of logic you're operating by, but you are severely misusing the term.
Edit: Actually, I think DAoC had weight for gear, but not coin. Still, two MMOs out of dozens is not a justification for it.
I like a certain amount of things you need to think about / contend with beyond combat, trades, etc... little things. Coin weight was always one of those little things for me. I liked it and was disappointed when I no longer had to deal with it.
To be clear - it's not "coin weight" specifically that is desirable for me, it is having to deal with a few things that make the game a little more "real", and having to think about them. For me, it's just personal preference... I'd love to see stuff like this, but wouldn't throw a hissy fit if it wasn't in the game.
Liav said:Having to stop playing the game periodically for your character to take a dump is something to deal with, too. That doesn't justify its inclusion.
Really, on this topic we are talking about "flavor" items that are in the game or not. The truth here is that neither of us is right or wrong. I'd prefer things like coin weight but would live without them... you'd clearly prefer not having them, but I'm guessing would live with them.
Wandidar said:Really, on this topic we are talking about "flavor" items that are in the game or not. The truth here is that neither of us is right or wrong. I'd prefer things like coin weight but would live without them... you'd clearly prefer not having them, but I'm guessing would live with them.
You're not wrong, but considering I could end up playing this game for a decade or more I like to pry people about the fundamental reasons they want to see things included in the game. It seems natural that if people are going to post things they want or don't want to see on a public forum that they'll be open to criticism or at the very least to being asked why they want to see things a given way.
You're 100% right that I would live with coin weight being in the game. I still don't want to see it because it would be annoying. I'm unconvinced by the arguments I've seen that it should be included.
Realistically, nothing we bicker about here matters because it is very unlikely that a developer will see it and change their minds.
Liav said:See, this is where I'm confused.
Why would you start with "this mechanic exists, tell me why it shouldn't" instead of "this mechanic doesn't exist, tell me why it should".
It seems completely backwards to me to include things in the game by default then try to justify why they shouldn't be there. There's way more precedent in MMOs for weight to not be a thing than for it to be a thing. EQ is literally the only game I know of that has done it, and based on that alone you want to include it?
There's nothing "logical" about this. I don't know what definition of logic you're operating by, but you are severely misusing the term.
Edit: Actually, I think DAoC had weight for gear, but not coin. Still, two MMOs out of dozens is not a justification for it.
So we have to justify to to you why it should be included, but you don't have to justify why it shouldn't???
Yeah. No. That's not the way this works. I don't have to justify why I would like to see it included one single bit. Not even a little bit. This isn't the Liav show.
This is a public forum dude. You don't have to do anything. It just seems reasonable that when you say something like "it's logical to include coin weight in Pantheon" that you could at least explain why you think that.
I definitely don't feel like you owe me an explanation. At the same time, I don't say things I'm not prepared to defend when asked for an explanation. I think it's pretty rude to use a forum as if it's a blog. The entire point of these forums is to have conversations. Maybe I've just been using forums wrong my entire life.
Inventory already typically has a limiting factor by space, why add an additional layer of limitiation in weight? Especially coin weight. What does it add to the overall gaming experience that is beneficial? Just seem like an uneeded nuicance, to be honest.
Even more so if certain races/classes gets a bonus to carrying capacity, simply due to favouring strenght as a primary stat.
Liav said:This is a public forum dude. You don't have to do anything. It just seems reasonable that when you say something like "it's logical to include coin weight in Pantheon" that you could at least explain why you think that.
I definitely don't feel like you owe me an explanation. At the same time, I don't say things I'm not prepared to defend when asked for an explanation. I think it's pretty rude to use a forum as if it's a blog. The entire point of these forums is to have conversations. Maybe I've just been using forums wrong my entire life.
You are, most certainly, the one that said that we should explain to you why it should be included. Almost everyone that has posted that it should be included has given their reasons why they feel that it should be included. You called their reasons "insufficient". That gives the impression that you are owed something and that nobody is giving it to you. They do not owe you a reason. They gaive THEIR reason. Contrary to what you implied in your statement, your opinion is no more, nor less, valid than theirs, yet you seem to think that yours is mroe valid and that they should have to justify theirs. That's not the way that this works. We are all entitled to our opinions, including you, and nobody's is right or wrong, including yours. You haven't provided a logical reason as to why it shouldn't be incluuded other than you don't like it, so yeah, they don't have to provide you a reason as to why they feel the way that they do, even thpugh they already have. You just don't accept that as their reason.
I'm going to be honest, I don't care enough about coin weight to respond to salty walls of text. There are very few topics I'm willing to get that spirited over.
I'll simply say that I am absolutely not important enough to be "owed" anything on this forum, and I never implied that I was. If you interpreted things that way, it is very far from my problem. Good day.
Liav said:I'm going to be honest, I don't care enough about coin weight to respond to salty walls of text. There are very few topics I'm willing to get that spirited over.
I'll simply say that I am absolutely not important enough to be "owed" anything on this forum, and I never implied that I was. If you interpreted things that way, it is very far from my problem. Good day.
You say that after I called you on it.... Here. Let me quote your own text to you... Emphasis added by me.
Liav said:Why would you start with "this mechanic exists, tell me why it shouldn't" instead of "this mechanic doesn't exist, tell me why it should".
It seems completely backwards to me to include things in the game by default then try to justify why they shouldn't be there. There's way more precedent in MMOs for weight to not be a thing than for it to be a thing. EQ is literally the only game I know of that has done it, and based on that alone you want to include it?
You're telling us to justify to you why it should be there.
In addition, you mocked someone else that said that it added a form of realism as his reasoning... Here. Let me quote that to you too.... Again, emphasis mine.
Liav said:Having to stop playing the game periodically for your character to take a dump is something to deal with, too. That doesn't justify its inclusion.
So, yeah. You're parading around like you're right for not wanting it and everyone else is wrong for wanting it and should be talked down to. Perhaps if you didn't act like the woorld owes you, you might get your point across better. All you do when you act like that is to make people automatically assume that you're someone that thinks that they're better than everyone else.
I feel like I got my point across just fine, which is that realism is not necessarily a good enough reason to include something. Was my suggestion crude? Sure. I probably could have handled that better. However, it still serves perfectly well to emphasize that realism is not necessarily enough for a mechanic to stand on its own.
Someone then might reciprocate with "well clearly that's going too far, coin weight is a lot more reasonable". I might even agree, but then I would say that the line drawn is still pretty arbitrary. I'm well aware that my "suggestion" was excessive to demonstrate the point that I was making.
I still completely reject that I'm behaving as if I'm owed anything. The words "to me" are intended to emphasize that something is an opinion, as opposed to a fact. If I thought I was better than someone, I would just come out and say it. The fact is that I'm not, and I'm perfectly aware of that. Posting on this forum isn't a competition. I don't treat it like it's a competition, despite your many assertions to the contrary.
Challenging preconceptions for the betterment of the game is not me trying to be competitive, nor is it me trying to assert that I'm correct. I've actually changed my mind on quite a few things by talking with people here about games.
I don't know what else to tell you. I haven't posted a single hostile thing in this thread but you're being pretty combative. Tone doesn't translate well to text, so if you're interpreting something I'm saying as combative, you should probably stop trying to interpret everything I say in the worst possible way. I'm just here for the betterment of the game I intend to spend the next several years playing.
.....Liav , I am sure you were tops in debate class :)
Each and everyone has difference in opinions . none better or worse then anyone elses .
I can live with or with out coin weight , I've played games with and without it .
I see both sides of the fence those speaking of realism lets say your on a road , Road (A) leads to town .....Road (B) to the wilds . You have lots of stuff on you not to mention coins .
without weight in the equation there would be no choice no consequence to any decision. With weight we then make choices . without why bother with a banker or town at all . carry everything carry it all .
I Also see others point of view its a bother its cumbersome , plays no part in my play .. but in reality it does play a part .. its part of knowing what to sell what to keep . it keeps towns alive by you visiting the sellers or bankers ..
Either way makes me no nevermind :) .
Here is a story that comes to my mind regarding coin weight:
So back in the days on p1999 I was an Iksar Necromancer. I found a guy selling a pre-nerfed COS for a good price (around 8kpp or so), so i told him to wait for me till i get to EC, since i had to move some money from another char. So lets do this: Ask some friendly guy to transfer money from one char to another, take all the money from bank and start running ... But i could not move! I could not move at all. No Shaman nearby who could strength buff me, so I had to think again ... When i could get to the druid who would port me, there wouldnt be a problem. SOW and str-buff FTW, but how do i get there?
One idea comes to my mind: My other char once found a pretty rare named Iksar in FOB (Iksar Dakoit or so), that dropped some bag ... And wiki said, that bag reduces coin weight by 10%. So again, ask the guy to transfer an item, get the bag, and finally i could move ... Very very slow, but at least I was moving. After 5 minutes of trudging through FOB to EJ I found out, that straifing is a big deal when being encumbered ... So again, a little faster. The druid was already waiting, ported me to WC, from there it was easy with sow and str-buff. And finally i got the COS ... click, click, click, click.
So I have mixed feelings to coin weight. In that moment i cursed like a desert madman, but at least i got a story to tell. I just thought: "So for the COS the bag enabled me to do the trade, but there are alot of items that are much more expensive. How will i be able to buy one of these?" The question was never answered, since i never had so much money. Sometimes its good to be poor.
Great story Matrulak , which brings to mind the problem of moving lol . dual edge sword there .
Coins even if weight is attributed to it , should not be so great to prevent such a simple thing as a transaction :)
I'm sure VR has thought about just such senarios ... I recall many times going at a snails pace and trying to decide what to drop to the gods :)
I'm pretty sure most long-term players of any video game have many anecdotes to look back on about any game that they have played.
I have anecdotes about how many "interesting" scenarios I got into as a result of dialup internet being unreliable and generally terrible, but that in no way means that I want to go back to having dialup.
These anecdotes are nice, but what does that have to do with anything? I have thousands of anecdotes about EQ. If coin weight was retroactively removed from EQ I might lose one out of thousands of memories I have about the game.
there in lies the crux , some memories we cherish others we simply choose to forget ....
I still believe that a *small * amount of coin weight helps the game rather then hinders it , towns are there for many reasons which include bankers ..
At the same time its nice not to worry about coin weight or carrying mega coins only to get pk'd and lose a percentage of them lol ..
@Liav
The story wasnt meant to be pro coin weight. For me it is an example, where coin weight was not a good thing. Since i had to travel pretty far to get to the trading area, i almost was not able to trade at all, at least when it comes to expensive stuff. While i understand that coin weight might avoid people from farming cash mobs 24/7 without leaving, coin weight should not prevent trades ... I just did not see someone mentioning that point in this thread (or they know a trick that i do not know).
And yes, i have stories to internet problems as well. Even though i find it entertaining, it did not enhance my playing experience in any way ;)
Shea said:Great story Matrulak , which brings to mind the problem of moving lol . dual edge sword there .
Coins even if weight is attributed to it , should not be so great to prevent such a simple thing as a transaction :)
I'm sure VR has thought about just such senarios ... I recall many times going at a snails pace and trying to decide what to drop to the gods :)
I disagree Shea. In Matrulaks story the coin weight did not prevent the simple transaction. What it DID do was turned the simple transaction into a memorable quest. This I belive is what would be called Emergent Gameplay.
And kudos to Matrulak on his solution to the quest. I'm shure there could be several others, "Bring Friends" comes to mind.
correct Zorkon it did not prevent it . in fact Matrulak found a way around the weight issue :) i was simply stating that coin weight should not prevent a transaction ...
In fact its was a great gameplay .