Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

(Coin) Weight

    • 29 posts
    September 9, 2016 7:38 AM PDT

    Hello,

    I searched forum topics about weight, but didnt find any... So hoping this hasnt been discussed over and over again. 

    Anyway... Has there been any announcement about how weight will be handled in Pantheon? I really loved the way everything (well almost) had weight in EQ. Becoming encumbred and slowing down, it's effects on Monk AC... It just added some form of realism to the game I liked. 

    In the end everybody had weight reducing bags, but in the lower levels it was fun... don't wanting to leave all the looted fine steel weaps behind... and having to crawl back to a merchant to sell them. Or even having to meet somebody at the bank, because the trade involved too many cash to carry around. 

    What are your thoughts about this?

    • 86 posts
    September 9, 2016 7:58 AM PDT

    I once gave a beggar noob in Rivervale so much copper he became perma rooted.  I then began to laugh and share my story with guildies, but my enjoyment was short-lived.  He figured out that items in the trade window have no weight, he could move freely until he was too far away from passers-by and the window closed, but I did get a good laugh about it and watching his progress towards the bank was entertaining.

    Coin should definitely have weight.

    • 86 posts
    September 9, 2016 7:58 AM PDT

    This topic could actually be expanded to be a topic on weight in general. And I agree with you that weight should matter. But as for coins specifically, I liked the way it was in BDO (Black Desert Online)

    In BDO coin had weight. However, You could talk to the banker and exchange coin for gold bars. The gold bars were lightweight and very valuable and used to exchange back into coin. But in BDO, the main reason thay has this was because it didnt have a traditional linked banking system. Each town has a separate storage facility and there was always a need to transfer funds. I assume, however, that Pantheon will have a linked banking system between all banks. If that is the case then maybe a gold exchange system would not be as important.

    • 29 posts
    September 9, 2016 8:02 AM PDT

    Koreno said:

    This topic could actually be expanded to be a topic on weight in general. And I agree with you that weight should matter. But as for coins specifically, I liked the way it was in BDO (Black Desert Online)

    In BDO coin had weight. However, You could talk to the banker and exchange coin for gold bars. The gold bars were lightweight and very valuable and used to exchange back into coin. 

    Something similar existed in EQ also. Ppl would carry around diamonds and other precious gems, as they were stackable and had almost no weight, but could be sold back to merchants at only a small loss. 

    About linked banks... I think they will be linked, but would be interesting maybe to see a few different banks (even with different currencies?). Would make sense if not all races used the same currency. But thats a different topic I guess =)

     

     


    This post was edited by DazL at September 9, 2016 8:05 AM PDT
    • 40 posts
    September 9, 2016 2:00 PM PDT

    Coin weight is fine, as long as gold and plat aren't trash coins. IRL did most farmers never even see a gold coin but a warhorse could cost a couple.

    Certain MMOs have items worth tens of thousands of goldcoins and if you have an economical system like that you shouldn't have weight on money. Now, even if a gold is worth plenty carrying around coin can still be annoying, copper was still pretty worthless in the actual middle ages and you would need a lot of coins to purchase a chainmail if you piad in that which is fine.

    Another thing to consider is if there are different kind of gold coins (like local kings or even guilds minting their own coins) for different places. That would also have a bad impact if the coins have actual weight.

    I do think it is fun though but only if the economical system support it to some degree.

     

    • 999 posts
    September 9, 2016 7:19 PM PDT

    There's been a few threads on this in the past - trying to dig up some links, but +1 for coin weight for me.

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2753/living-requirements/view/page/3

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2247/game-mechanics/view/post_id/30172 


    This post was edited by Raidan at September 9, 2016 7:21 PM PDT
    • 763 posts
    September 10, 2016 12:35 AM PDT

    FWIW:

    To make 'coin weight' work, there is a need for 'trash coinage' to be burdensome, but higher coinage to maintain a high value so fewer actual coins are needed. This is where many traditional (MMO) games make an error - and it is more to do with (worry about player) maths than programming or intent.

    Typically :

    10 copper = 1 silver, 10 silver = 1 gold, 10 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 10x10x10 = 1,000 copper

    This means that the kind of 'expensive' items that players deal with on a day-to-day basis (of which NPC never deal with) soon start to cost hundreds, if not thousands, of plat. This means that gold becomes 'burdensome' and hence equated with a trash-coin. So, developers consider either 'zero-weight coinage' or 'auto-exchange in bag' as the way to go since this avoids the problems. Otherwise by level 30 you have everyone having to ditch silver and even gold to avoid carrying cash.

    Potentially - a solution : (NB: arbitrary convertion chosen below for demonstration purposes)

    100 copper = 1 silver, 50 silver = 1 gold, 25 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 100x50x25 = 125,000 copper

    Now we see that levels 1-10 will likely work in copper with a smattering of silver and almost no gold. Lower-Mid levels will start to work mainly in silver with a good proportion of gold. This allows players from level 15+ to use plat as a 'wealth unit'. It has little weight, but is valuable enough to pay for items with just a few coins. Eg: 8pp = 200 gold which is 10,000 silver. More than enough for *any* purchase up to level 20-25 or even higher.

    More 'extreme' conversions: These would give you better 'scarcity' but may feel odd to many players. The maths, though, would be much easier initially (consistent)

    100 copper = 1 silver, 100 silver = 1 gold, 100 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 100x100x100 = 1 million copper.

    As in the previous example, 8pp = 800 gp = 80,000 silver! Players will be dealing in silver (as a non-trash coin) until level 20-25+. Gold would be only likely to become 'commonplace' after this.

     

    NOTE: Medieval Europe through to the Renaissance (and beyond in many areas) worked with multiple currencies and variable exchange rates. With little 'formal' maths skills they were able to deal effectively using little more than ledgers, knotted strings and abaci. The conversion rate between 'pennies' to a 'pound' was approx 120 pennies to 1 pound. Given that the 'halfpenny' was a common coin (initially cut in half by merchants from a penny) this meant that the peasantry were dealing with 240 'half-pennies' to the pound (not that they ever saw one). They managed ... because failure to do so would result in starvation or imprisonment for lack of tax.

    • 40 posts
    September 10, 2016 1:09 AM PDT

    Evoras said:

    FWIW:

    To make 'coin weight' work, there is a need for 'trash coinage' to be burdensome, but higher coinage to maintain a high value so fewer actual coins are needed. This is where many traditional (MMO) games make an error - and it is more to do with (worry about player) maths than programming or intent.

    Typically :

    10 copper = 1 silver, 10 silver = 1 gold, 10 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 10x10x10 = 1,000 copper

    This means that the kind of 'expensive' items that players deal with on a day-to-day basis (of which NPC never deal with) soon start to cost hundreds, if not thousands, of plat. This means that gold becomes 'burdensome' and hence equated with a trash-coin. So, developers consider either 'zero-weight coinage' or 'auto-exchange in bag' as the way to go since this avoids the problems. Otherwise by level 30 you have everyone having to ditch silver and even gold to avoid carrying cash.

    Potentially - a solution : (NB: arbitrary convertion chosen below for demonstration purposes)

    100 copper = 1 silver, 50 silver = 1 gold, 25 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 100x50x25 = 125,000 copper

    Now we see that levels 1-10 will likely work in copper with a smattering of silver and almost no gold. Lower-Mid levels will start to work mainly in silver with a good proportion of gold. This allows players from level 15+ to use plat as a 'wealth unit'. It has little weight, but is valuable enough to pay for items with just a few coins. Eg: 8pp = 200 gold which is 10,000 silver. More than enough for *any* purchase up to level 20-25 or even higher.

    More 'extreme' conversions: These would give you better 'scarcity' but may feel odd to many players. The maths, though, would be much easier initially (consistent)

    100 copper = 1 silver, 100 silver = 1 gold, 100 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 100x100x100 = 1 million copper.

    As in the previous example, 8pp = 800 gp = 80,000 silver! Players will be dealing in silver (as a non-trash coin) until level 20-25+. Gold would be only likely to become 'commonplace' after this.

     

    NOTE: Medieval Europe through to the Renaissance (and beyond in many areas) worked with multiple currencies and variable exchange rates. With little 'formal' maths skills they were able to deal effectively using little more than ledgers, knotted strings and abaci. The conversion rate between 'pennies' to a 'pound' was approx 120 pennies to 1 pound. Given that the 'halfpenny' was a common coin (initially cut in half by merchants from a penny) this meant that the peasantry were dealing with 240 'half-pennies' to the pound (not that they ever saw one). They managed ... because failure to do so would result in starvation or imprisonment for lack of tax.

    Great post. I like your extreme version.

    Of course it was the sovereign that was the actual coin, not the pound who basically was something you counted with. The pound (or quid as people called it) was paper money that arrived pretty late. and there was the guinea worth a pound and a shilling. Its more confusing:

    2 farthings = 1 halfpenny
    2 halfpence = 1 penny (1d)
    3 pence = 1 thruppence (3d)
    6 pence = 1 sixpence (a 'tanner') (6d)
    12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob) (1s)
    2 shillings = 1 florin ( a 'two bob bit') (2s)
    2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown (2s 6d)
    5 shillings = 1 Crown (5s)

    There were 240 pennies to a pound because originally 240 silver penny coins weighed 1 pound (1lb)

    You could actually use something similar in a MMO, it would be pretty confusing to new players but I think it also could be pretty fun. Many MMOs actually uses a lot of other things as alternative coins for specific purpose (Gw2 to mention one game have over 40 extra types of coins, 1 for each dungeon and so on) and people tend to get it pretty fast. Money is something people tend to learn rather easy.

    • 116 posts
    September 10, 2016 6:04 AM PDT

     I agree that armor,weapons and backpack items would add to your overall weight but I think having currency add to your overall weight is an unnecessary burden.

    • 29 posts
    September 10, 2016 6:40 AM PDT

    Evoras said:

    More 'extreme' conversions: These would give you better 'scarcity' but may feel odd to many players. The maths, though, would be much easier initially (consistent)

    100 copper = 1 silver, 100 silver = 1 gold, 100 gold = 1 plat

    So 1 plat = 100x100x100 = 1 million copper.

    As in the previous example, 8pp = 800 gp = 80,000 silver! Players will be dealing in silver (as a non-trash coin) until level 20-25+. Gold would be only likely to become 'commonplace' after this.

     

    NOTE: Medieval Europe through to the Renaissance (and beyond in many areas) worked with multiple currencies and variable exchange rates. With little 'formal' maths skills they were able to deal effectively using little more than ledgers, knotted strings and abaci. The conversion rate between 'pennies' to a 'pound' was approx 120 pennies to 1 pound. Given that the 'halfpenny' was a common coin (initially cut in half by merchants from a penny) this meant that the peasantry were dealing with 240 'half-pennies' to the pound (not that they ever saw one). They managed ... because failure to do so would result in starvation or imprisonment for lack of tax.

    I would really like this. Instead of having gold and plat as the main dealing currency from the start, this seems to spread it out over the lvls nicely. 

     

    Oldtimer said:

     I agree that armor,weapons and backpack items would add to your overall weight but I think having currency add to your overall weight is an unnecessary burden.

     

    Depends on how death and corpse retrieval is handled also. If you die and keep your coin on your corpse, then I would mind less if coins would be weightless. But if you keep the coin on your char, why would you even need a bank for coin? Might as well keep it on your char all the time then.

    The idea of coin having weight is just that you cant walk around with this millions of coins without getting encumbred... Well... at least not untill you finally found that Purse of Nill Space =) Somehow I found the system in EQ great. At times it was a burden, but it most of the times I liked it. You had to think about places to sell your loot or trade your gold for platinum, couldnt go on a non-stop looting spree in a dungeon for ages without either getting rid of some coins or loot. Choices... go sell or keep on going and ditching the stuff not worth keeping. 

     

     

    • 116 posts
    September 10, 2016 6:51 AM PDT

    "Depends on how death and corpse retrieval is handled also. If you die and keep your coin on your corpse, then I would mind less if coins would be weightless. But if you keep the coin on your char, why would you even need a bank for coin? Might as well keep it on your char all the time then."

    @DazL, Good point.

    • 763 posts
    September 10, 2016 7:48 AM PDT

    @loke666

    Yep, perfectly right... was going from memory and also hoping to avoid people's heads exploding though hehe

    E.g. that a 'Guinea' = 1.05 'Pounds' !

    @DazL

    I *do* think though, that people would get the higher (more 'extreme') conversion rates pretty fast. Most modern currencies use 100:1, it is just that they stop at the 'primary' unit of currency. This means most players will have the understanding of 100 copper to 1 silver. By the time they transition to gold, they will have got the hang of it.

    Note: Some far east areas used terms such as 'Lakh' (spelling??) = 10,000 of the primary unit ... but agian, this brings us back to the fact that early money systems were predominantly based on WEIGHT, not 'REPRESENTATIVE VALUE'. Modern currency is, in fact, little more than an IOU note. Since the removal of the gold standard, they are also, technically, worthless.

    • 334 posts
    October 25, 2017 2:55 PM PDT

    In regard to weight; I just did a search on "size" and didn't see Items in the context (just group/raid/race/zone/world/pantheon) but not.. potato size!
    (being Pantheon noob) I didn't read everything yet, but "bag" got 0 hits and "carry" neither (well.. 1, but that was about invent badly and steal good)
    so..
    does is take a group to carry my new 1 gold couch to my shack?
    can I loot 20 swords and spook a porcupine worse then a necro? (can I bring my collapsible forge so I can fit the bars of metal in my knapsack?)

    (edit: increased font size.. I got new screens and my thoughts look puny)


    This post was edited by Rydan at October 25, 2017 2:57 PM PDT
    • 2130 posts
    October 25, 2017 3:15 PM PDT

    No reason for coins to have weight other than to add needless micromanagement to the UI. Hard pass.

    • 77 posts
    October 25, 2017 4:07 PM PDT

    I don't like the idea of money having weight, I think it was EQOA where you lost 50% of the gold you were carrying if you died, so that was reason enough for folks to put their money in banks.

    • 1860 posts
    October 25, 2017 5:02 PM PDT

    Here is another one from Jan where Kils mentions it will discussed in the future:  I guesss that is now?

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5059/will-there-be-encumbrance

    • 2419 posts
    October 25, 2017 5:17 PM PDT

    Why worry about the conversion rate when you can simply vary the weight of the coins themselves?  Make copper very light so that it would take, say, a thousand copper pieces (just as an example) to increase your weight by 1lb.  Make silver slightly heavier and gold heavier than silver with platinum the heaviest of all.  If you look at the atomic weights, Copper is 63.54, Silver is 107.87, Gold is 196.97 and Platinum is 195.08.  Why not follow that type of slope for each of the coins so you could carry 3x the number of copper as you could platinum for the exact same weight.  Thus you do not need to worry so much about throwing away 'useless' copper because their weight is calculated independently on a separate scale.

    • 2752 posts
    October 25, 2017 6:09 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Why worry about the conversion rate when you can simply vary the weight of the coins themselves?  Make copper very light so that it would take, say, a thousand copper pieces (just as an example) to increase your weight by 1lb.  Make silver slightly heavier and gold heavier than silver with platinum the heaviest of all.  If you look at the atomic weights, Copper is 63.54, Silver is 107.87, Gold is 196.97 and Platinum is 195.08.  Why not follow that type of slope for each of the coins so you could carry 3x the number of copper as you could platinum for the exact same weight.  Thus you do not need to worry so much about throwing away 'useless' copper because their weight is calculated independently on a separate scale.

     

    Because people aren't likely to carry thousands of copper yet are much more likely to carry/need to cary whatever the highest value coin is. It was already easy enough to become encumbered trying to carry a few thousand platinum to make a purchase in EQ, where it weighed very little.

     

    Even if you could carry 1000x the number of copper for the same weight as platinum it wouldn't be worth it as 1000 copper = 1 platinum.  

    • 1120 posts
    October 25, 2017 6:30 PM PDT

    There is no reason to have Coin weight.  Im perfectly fine with having weight, and encumbered effects, but not coins.

    • 1281 posts
    October 25, 2017 6:53 PM PDT

    The reason that money in most of these games is base 10 is because the math is simple to do in your head.

    As for coins having weight.  Absolutely.  As the victim of a "meanie" that uncumbered the heck out of me when I was a newbie, which I passed on to other newbies, including locking them in the Freeport bank vault, it was a good time.  They've already said that this game would be more EQ and less WoW, so yeah.  We need to go back to some of the old mechanics....  Including the fact that EVERYTHING weighs something.

    • 2130 posts
    October 25, 2017 7:00 PM PDT

    Just because EQ did it does not making it good, or worth repeating.

    Let's consider what coin weight will add to Pantheon:

    1. Excessive inventory/weight micromanagement.

    2. You might troll a new player once or twice in the 10+ years you'll probably be playing the game.

    What else? It doesn't add challenge to the game, it's just annoying.

    • 1281 posts
    October 25, 2017 7:32 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    Just because EQ did it does not making it good, or worth repeating.

    Let's consider what coin weight will add to Pantheon:

    1. Excessive inventory/weight micromanagement.

    2. You might troll a new player once or twice in the 10+ years you'll probably be playing the game.

    What else? It doesn't add challenge to the game, it's just annoying.

    Let me guess, you want to game to level you while you sleep too.....  By your logic, neither cold, heat, nor hunger should encumer you either....  Except that they have said that they will.  If you wwant a game that is trivial to play, there's always WoW.  Inveentory management is part of the game.  They've already said that you are going to need to have situational gear with you.  Welcome to inventory management 101.

    The POINT of coins having weight isn't to troll people.  It was just a fun, anecdotal, thing to do.  The POINT of coins having weight is to FORCE inventory management.  You should not be able to carry unlimited everything on you at all times.


    This post was edited by Kalok at October 25, 2017 7:32 PM PDT
    • 454 posts
    October 25, 2017 7:41 PM PDT

    I like coins having weight.  And it makes sense that one copper would weigh less than one plat. The more realism the better.

    • 1778 posts
    October 25, 2017 7:42 PM PDT

    Im Okay with weight limits, just not on coin. Its not gonna be a big deal if it does have weight, Ill deal. But just doesnt seem like a crucial need or that interesting of a mechanic.

    Brad also mentioned the possiblity of using pets as pack mules. There are also magic bags of holding as an old concept that could make it in.

     

    • 178 posts
    October 25, 2017 7:49 PM PDT

    Coins aren't excessive inventory/weight micromanagement. They are one thing unrelated to the items you have stored in your bags and equipped on your person. Weigh too much then drop or destroy some. That isn't excessive nor is it micromanagement. So why would someone have too many coins? One is that they have been playing a long session in between visiting banks and have garnered a lot of coin from their adventuring. Or two is they can't be bothered to return to somewhere to bank their coin in between playing sessions. In either of those situations the end result is that "coins mean something and I have to keep them." If it is that important then it is part of the game that must be dealt with.

    Perhaps there will be mitigating measures to aid with encumberances due to coins (could be items like magic coin purses, could be portal type spells).

    However, if there are variations of types of coins such that only certain coins can be banked at certain areas then yes I could see that as excessive inventory/weight micromanagement.