I'm pretty sure every human being on the planet deals with some degree of anxiety and paranoia. That comment was derived from real conversations I have had with other players who suggested that open-world competition makes them feel anxious and uneasy. I wasn't trying to imply that it's some sort of mental deficiency. My point was that competition is inherent in an open-world game and just because it triggers those negative sensations for some people doesn't mean it's a bad thing overall. I don't think it's fair when those who embrace open-world competition as something that can be fun/exciting are automatically painted as the bad guys who are trying to ruin the experience of others. As far as my sharing/vying comment ... consider the freeway. We all share the freeway but drivers are constantly vying for their position on it. They aren't opposites.
I have to get going now but I'll probably chime in later with some additional thoughts. I'm particularly interested in discussing how fun/healthy competition can be achieved but it's really hard to get that conversation going if we can't get everybody on the same page. We need to accept that competition (vying for resources) is going to be a thing in this game, and that it's viewed as an overall positive from a design standpoint. We must remember that these same conversations were had many years ago and it ultimately lead to instancing which is something that VR has shown an unwillingness to do. There is this narrative being pushed that competition is bad for the game and that VR has only ever discussed how they are going to mitigate it rather than promote it. If Ford were to unveil a new vehicle tomorrow they wouldn't emphasize how it runs on gas. They would, however, highlight how it gets better gas mileage than previous models.
I think they just need to strike a balance of competition and unfair advantage.
It's one thing to compete for a mob. It's another to have an unfair advantage. I don't necessarily mind having to race toward a boss versus another guild, but what I do mind is when a guild from another time zone has the ability to organizes while I sit at my work desk sipping coffee at 9 am. Football teams whose homes are on the east coast do not get to show up to a football game at 9 am and automatically win simply because they were able to arrive to the playing field early. Pretty much every game in existence has rules in place to keep the playing field level for all those competing. This game should be no different.
I think the lockout timers will still allow some real-time competition in zones, but it will limit the ability of any one power from controlling it all. The more I consider this, the more I really like this idea as a good compromise. You would still have some competition, where a couple guilds may show up at the same time with no lockout timers and they would still race/compete for the boss. But once one of them "wins", they are forced to sit out while a while so others can have their chance. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
There is a fine line between competition and greed. Just say no to bat phones and poop socking.
oneADseven said:I'm pretty sure every human being on the planet deals with some degree of anxiety and paranoia. That comment was derived from real conversations I have had with other players who suggested that open-world competition makes them feel anxious and uneasy. I wasn't trying to imply that it's some sort of mental deficiency. My point was that competition is inherent in an open-world game and just because it triggers those negative sensations for some people doesn't mean it's a bad thing overall. I don't think it's fair when those who embrace open-world competition as something that can be fun/exciting are automatically painted as the bad guys who are trying to ruin the experience of others. As far as my sharing/vying comment ... consider the freeway. We all share the freeway but drivers are constantly vying for their position on it. They aren't opposites.
I have to get going now but I'll probably chime in later with some additional thoughts. I'm particularly interested in discussing how fun/healthy competition can be achieved but it's really hard to get that conversation going if we can't get everybody on the same page. We need to accept that competition (vying for resources) is going to be a thing in this game, and that it's viewed as an overall positive from a design standpoint. We must remember that these same conversations were had many years ago and it ultimately lead to instancing which is something that VR has shown an unwillingness to do. There is this narrative being pushed that competition is bad for the game and that VR has only ever discussed how they are going to mitigate it rather than promote it. If Ford were to unveil a new vehicle tomorrow they wouldn't emphasize how it runs on gas. They would, however, highlight how it gets better gas mileage than previous models.
I'm not sure drivers 'vy for their position'. I just drive my own route in a way considerate to other drivers and following the rules of the road. I don't race people and I've certainly never thought it might make my journey more meaningful to block someone else's route...
And Ford do make an electric car and a hybrid for people who don't like poluting and diminishing our natural resources.
I jest. Kinda ;^)
But, I do agree that this whole issue would be much better discussed from a positive attitude. Yes, competition will be 'in' in some form and to some degree, so how do we make it fun and healthy for everyone?
Maybe soon, VR will give some clear ideas on that vision. In the meantime, I've made lots of suggestions and am keen to hear more from others.
oneADseven said:I'm pretty sure every human being on the planet deals with some degree of anxiety and paranoia. That comment was derived from real conversations I have had with other players who suggested that open-world competition makes them feel anxious and uneasy. I wasn't trying to imply that it's some sort of mental deficiency. My point was that competition is inherent in an open-world game and just because it triggers those negative sensations for some people doesn't mean it's a bad thing overall. I don't think it's fair when those who embrace open-world competition as something that can be fun/exciting are automatically painted as the bad guys who are trying to ruin the experience of others. As far as my sharing/vying comment ... consider the freeway. We all share the freeway but drivers are constantly vying for their position on it. They aren't opposites.
I have to get going now but I'll probably chime in later with some additional thoughts. I'm particularly interested in discussing how fun/healthy competition can be achieved but it's really hard to get that conversation going if we can't get everybody on the same page. We need to accept that competition (vying for resources) is going to be a thing in this game, and that it's viewed as an overall positive from a design standpoint. We must remember that these same conversations were had many years ago and it ultimately lead to instancing which is something that VR has shown an unwillingness to do. There is this narrative being pushed that competition is bad for the game and that VR has only ever discussed how they are going to mitigate it rather than promote it. If Ford were to unveil a new vehicle tomorrow they wouldn't emphasize how it runs on gas. They would, however, highlight how it gets better gas mileage than previous models.
I don't see any way that it can be "fun" or "healthy" (let alone a fair/balanced competition), especially for group camp named spawns. If the game is truly focused on being a social cooperative PvE experience then I feel it would be a massive mistake to encourage players to trample over eachother to get what they want when they want it (might makes right/survival of the fittest), I know I most certainly would hate it if I worked to a camp with a group hoping for a nice night gaming and had to view any other groups/players we see come near after with immediate distrust and as potential threats toward our own goals. I don't want to spend (waste) my time playing games of tug-o-war or in stand offs against other players. If its totally okay and/or encouraged to fight over named spawns then for me it is only a matter of time until I stop even logging in.
You say its some kind of inherent/essential thing but many of us came from EQ, an open world where camps were respected (almost all the time) and not group vs group/player vs player competitions where the strongest take what they want. Raiding on the other hand was open competition and a mess on many servers (some had a few uber guilds that set up rotations, but most outside those were still excluded). The most elite/hardcore raiders often acknowledged how obnoxious/toxic the system was even though they benefit the most from it (many of them were hired to Blizzard and personally created instances as knee jerk pull to the opposite end of the spectrum due to the player gating/hyper competition from EQ raiding). It wasn't fun for most anyone but those at the top.
The narrative that competition is mostly undesireable or otherwise something to mitigate and limit instances of occurance is pulled straight from the FAQ:
10.1 Open world MMOs sometimes suffer from too much competition for resources, overcrowding, and other similar issues. For example, what plans are there to mitigate one guild from preventing others from progressing?
By creating plenty of content, a large world, not allowing shards to become overpopulated (for example, by quickly launching new shards), possible systems and rules within specific shards, and if things get out of hand to involve Customer Service (GMs). Above all, we want to use positive reinforcement by making sure that there is enough content and an epic enough world to minimize these issues.
20.2 Without instancing, are you concerned about overcrowding and/or too much competition for resources and content?
Overcrowding and too much competition are indeed problems that have plagued both MMOs with and without instancing. If there are not enough players around, it can be hard to group and socialize. But if there are too many people around, the world feels crowded and people have to wait for encounters or spawns, or even compete for them.
I wasn't at the hardcore version of EQ in classic, or at all. I just enjoyed the game and grouped up and leveled. I was apart of a few raids, but just their because of the experience and not really for the loot. I did a lot of hardcore raiding in the EQ progression server, and the open world stuff was toxic. Why? Because really good guilds that didn't zerg always lost to the zerg guilds. Not to mention the current top eq guilds on the progression servers are pretty bad in terms of attitude when it comes to open world. No skill, just no lifing it and zerging with a bunch of people. I quite enjoyed WoW and their raiding. It wasn't tank in spank, but yea it was a dance, which is better than tank in spank. I hope pantheon goes away from both Eq and WoW raiding to make it feel more organic. The boss can do several different patterns and combinations of those patterns each encounter making them unpredictable. So not totally organic, but enough depth into them to make them feel random.
I am in favor of how Vanguard did it in terms of how they handled the lockout timers for raiding, from what I have heard so far. Maybe instead of instant or 30 mins, you could do 4 hour cycles along with the lockout timer for 7 days. It would allow way more guilds than two not really uber guilds, but zergling guilds, from controlling the content. I think it is going to be disingenious to go from the numbers of Old EQ on how many people raided. Now in days, tons of people want to raid. Maybe not hardcore, but get a few bosses down. So anyone that says only 5 % of the population will raid, or some small percentage like that, is fooling themselves. Way more people are engaged in raiding now. So a new approach should be handled to raiding that is open world, but allows for a lot more people, and not 1 or 2 guilds, to have a taste of the raiding scene.
Iksar said:The narrative that competition is mostly undesireable or otherwise something to mitigate and limit instances of occurance is pulled straight from the FAQ:
10.1 Open world MMOs sometimes suffer from too much competition for resources, overcrowding, and other similar issues. For example, what plans are there to mitigate one guild from preventing others from progressing?
By creating plenty of content, a large world, not allowing shards to become overpopulated (for example, by quickly launching new shards), possible systems and rules within specific shards, and if things get out of hand to involve Customer Service (GMs). Above all, we want to use positive reinforcement by making sure that there is enough content and an epic enough world to minimize these issues.20.2 Without instancing, are you concerned about overcrowding and/or too much competition for resources and content?
Overcrowding and too much competition are indeed problems that have plagued both MMOs with and without instancing. If there are not enough players around, it can be hard to group and socialize. But if there are too many people around, the world feels crowded and people have to wait for encounters or spawns, or even compete for them.
Too much competition is relative. I have seen nothing to suggest that VR wants to eliminate competition from the game. I have seen, however, a willingness to alleviate bottlenecks, monitor server population, and improve content accessibility. Mitigating "too much" competition isn't the same thing as removing it altogether. Again, we need to accept that resources are finite in an open-world game and that competition is inevitable. Let's consider the following:
"Over-eating and too many bad calories are indeed problems that have plagued our country, with and without diets. If there aren't enough good calories in our food, it can be hard to have energy and function normally. But if there are too many bad calories, our bodies can feel lethargic and people have to start exercising more, or even go on a diet."
I'm happy that VR is looking to create a healthier world for us to enjoy. At the same time, I think they also understand that their product needs calories and flavor. I don't think it's realistic to think that they are going to remove cheese and mayonnaise from their menu. I do think, however, that they are committed to fine-tuning their recipe to be as healthy as possible without compromising the flavor that everybody craves. The "open-world" distinction carries massive weight (see what I did there) and will ultimately serve as the iconic flavor that keeps people coming back. For better or worse, competition is inherent in an open-world game. Accepting this as reality is necessary if you want competition to be something fun and enjoyable.
Resources are only as finite as VR decides to make them. There is nothing fun or healthy about being blocked from content for weeks/months at a time by other players. Let people have access to raids and let the difficulty filter out the haves from the have nots, the skilled from the not skilled enough.
Until someone can figure out what "fun and healthy competition" looks like (it isn't fighting/crawling over other players for named spawns) I'll remain entirely uninterested in wasting evenings of free time pushing and shoving against other groups or being denied a chance to try content entirely for weeks/months.
You missed part of the FAQ excerpt from 10.1:
"We also want to make sure there will be plenty of great items and choices for adventuring all over the world – for example, we want to avoid there being just a single sought-after item for a specific class at a specific level. Similarly powerful and valued items will be available elsewhere in the world."
And from 20.2:
"Our answer to this issue is twofold: first, primarily during the later phases of beta, we will determine how many people online at one time in our game world feels right -- neither under-crowded nor overcrowded. Second, if and when a server’s/shard’s population grows too large, we will launch a new shard with incentives for players to spread out. And with our harnessing of cloud hosted servers/shards, this is actually something we can do dynamically, easily, and quickly."
That seems like a reasonable approach for alleviating "too much competition" in an open-world game. Players shouldn't be crawling or trampling over each other if they get those things right.
And this is what ive been preaching. Situational Evaluation. It all comes down to the Dev's being aware of the game and each individual server. They can even create algorithms if they need to.... if 5 large raids enter a single raid zone they can have a shard option open up.
This is still "instancing" but open world at the same time. And if there are other mechanics in place to prevent KS'ing like lockouts or like Porygon has recently suggested Group/Raid FTE mechanics that lock you out if the first raid has 75%+ engagement. Idk. Like i said earlier, many solutions for a problem that hasn't even become an issue yet.
Actually the old style, free for all, having guilds hop over each other and scramble to get people on was one of the things i love most about eq raiding because when we cleared a raid or killed a boss or got a server first it meant that much more. It was truly...not just anyone can do this. Post eq one of the things i have hatted the most is this constant strive to appeal to all players under one roof and allow everyone to have a chance to see the same end game and get the same epic gear regardless if they play 40hrs a week or 2....I PERSONALLY DESPISE THAT!
You have a job and cant dedicate the time to learn and clear Plane of TIme, but you want to be able to get the same stuff and kill the same mobs as those of us who would duck out of work for a 30min to kill a world boss? screw you! Just like in real life, you get out what you put in and if you cant dedicate the time to be in the high-end raid guilds then you will just have to accept that there are some things you cant get and some mobs you cant kill, or you can go play WoW or any of the dozzens of others that are trying to bow to every delicate snowflake because they think they should get a trophy for showing up.
Im sorry im old school. When i grew up if you didnt wear a helmet and crashed yoru bike you got brain damage, if you were not smart enough not to a fork in an electric socket you died...no warning labels no advocacy groups, just good ole fashion Darwinism at its best. That being said the things i hate the most about casual players who think they are "entitled" to get the same stuff as the hard-core is the entire premise is just stupid. You are saying that if you cant do everything and get everything then the game sux or you dont like it...WTF is wrong with you? (generic you not the op). There is TONS and TONS and TONS of other stuff for you to do and if the only way you can enjoy the game is get the hardest stuff then man up and quit your job or stop whinning.
The reason people drooled at epic gear and the leet drops from super hard raids was BECAUSE they knew they likely would never have a shot at it and it either motivated them or, like a celebrity, was fun to oooo and ahhh over. Besides that part of the game is less than 10%, so enjoy the other 90% and stop thinking everyone should get a damn meddal just for playing. Again, if it bothers you, Eq, Pantheon is NOT for you. if not being able to have access to 5% or 10% of the mobs/gear ruins the other 95% for you man up and become hard core or seek psychiatric help.
And for the record. Having been in a few of the top raid guilds in EQ i can tell you we OFTEN brought in other guilds or outstanding solo players on raids and their were many reasons for that. So if you cant keep the time commitments of a top raid guild but you still want to do the raids they do then become STELLAR at playing your class and i will 100% guarantee you will be noticed and you will be asked to participate in events.
Tevarion said:Actually the old style, free for all, having guilds hop over each other and scramble to get people on was one of the things i love most about eq raiding because when we cleared a raid or killed a boss or got a server first it meant that much more. It was truly...not just anyone can do this. Post eq one of the things i have hatted the most is this constant strive to appeal to all players under one roof and allow everyone to have a chance to see the same end game and get the same epic gear regardless if they play 40hrs a week or 2....I PERSONALLY DESPISE THAT!
You have a job and cant dedicate the time to learn and clear Plane of TIme, but you want to be able to get the same stuff and kill the same mobs as those of us who would duck out of work for a 30min to kill a world boss? screw you! Just like in real life, you get out what you put in and if you cant dedicate the time to be in the high-end raid guilds then you will just have to accept that there are some things you cant get and some mobs you cant kill, or you can go play WoW or any of the dozzens of others that are trying to bow to every delicate snowflake because they think they should get a trophy for showing up.
Im sorry im old school. When i grew up if you didnt wear a helmet and crashed yoru bike you got brain damage, if you were not smart enough not to a fork in an electric socket you died...no warning labels no advocacy groups, just good ole fashion Darwinism at its best. That being said the things i hate the most about casual players who think they are "entitled" to get the same stuff as the hard-core is the entire premise is just stupid. You are saying that if you cant do everything and get everything then the game sux or you dont like it...WTF is wrong with you? (generic you not the op). There is TONS and TONS and TONS of other stuff for you to do and if the only way you can enjoy the game is get the hardest stuff then man up and quit your job or stop whinning.
The reason people drooled at epic gear and the leet drops from super hard raids was BECAUSE they knew they likely would never have a shot at it and it either motivated them or, like a celebrity, was fun to oooo and ahhh over. Besides that part of the game is less than 10%, so enjoy the other 90% and stop thinking everyone should get a damn meddal just for playing. Again, if it bothers you, Eq, Pantheon is NOT for you. if not being able to have access to 5% or 10% of the mobs/gear ruins the other 95% for you man up and become hard core or seek psychiatric help.
And for the record. Having been in a few of the top raid guilds in EQ i can tell you we OFTEN brought in other guilds or outstanding solo players on raids and their were many reasons for that. So if you cant keep the time commitments of a top raid guild but you still want to do the raids they do then become STELLAR at playing your class and i will 100% guarantee you will be noticed and you will be asked to participate in events.
The sad thing is I'm not entirely sure if this is someone trolling.
zoltar said:Tevarion said:Actually the old style, free for all, having guilds hop over each other and scramble to get people on was one of the things i love most about eq raiding because when we cleared a raid or killed a boss or got a server first it meant that much more. It was truly...not just anyone can do this. Post eq one of the things i have hatted the most is this constant strive to appeal to all players under one roof and allow everyone to have a chance to see the same end game and get the same epic gear regardless if they play 40hrs a week or 2....I PERSONALLY DESPISE THAT!
You have a job and cant dedicate the time to learn and clear Plane of TIme, but you want to be able to get the same stuff and kill the same mobs as those of us who would duck out of work for a 30min to kill a world boss? screw you! Just like in real life, you get out what you put in and if you cant dedicate the time to be in the high-end raid guilds then you will just have to accept that there are some things you cant get and some mobs you cant kill, or you can go play WoW or any of the dozzens of others that are trying to bow to every delicate snowflake because they think they should get a trophy for showing up.
Im sorry im old school. When i grew up if you didnt wear a helmet and crashed yoru bike you got brain damage, if you were not smart enough not to a fork in an electric socket you died...no warning labels no advocacy groups, just good ole fashion Darwinism at its best. That being said the things i hate the most about casual players who think they are "entitled" to get the same stuff as the hard-core is the entire premise is just stupid. You are saying that if you cant do everything and get everything then the game sux or you dont like it...WTF is wrong with you? (generic you not the op). There is TONS and TONS and TONS of other stuff for you to do and if the only way you can enjoy the game is get the hardest stuff then man up and quit your job or stop whinning.
The reason people drooled at epic gear and the leet drops from super hard raids was BECAUSE they knew they likely would never have a shot at it and it either motivated them or, like a celebrity, was fun to oooo and ahhh over. Besides that part of the game is less than 10%, so enjoy the other 90% and stop thinking everyone should get a damn meddal just for playing. Again, if it bothers you, Eq, Pantheon is NOT for you. if not being able to have access to 5% or 10% of the mobs/gear ruins the other 95% for you man up and become hard core or seek psychiatric help.
And for the record. Having been in a few of the top raid guilds in EQ i can tell you we OFTEN brought in other guilds or outstanding solo players on raids and their were many reasons for that. So if you cant keep the time commitments of a top raid guild but you still want to do the raids they do then become STELLAR at playing your class and i will 100% guarantee you will be noticed and you will be asked to participate in events.
The sad thing is I'm not entirely sure if this is someone trolling.
It's actually a spot on post. Not everybody deserves everything. People derive satisfaction when things are difficult to achieve. Players should get out what they put in and not be yoyo'd to the front of the pack Mario Kart style. All valid points.
We really will never all agree on this. The only way to accommodate the various sides is (1) a mix of raid content (some of which is contested, yes stop whining about it), or (2) different server rulesets.
Even if VR does different rulesets, no server should have imstances. That would cheapen the accomplishments of servers without instances. That‘s probably a controversial statement, too. Really we just want different games, and I don’t even know why the “no-competition” crowd decided to support this particular MMO. But here we are. I guess we’ll see which game is made.
Keno Monster said:zoltar said:Tevarion said:
The sad thing is I'm not entirely sure if this is someone trolling.
It's actually a spot on post. Not everybody deserves everything. People derive satisfaction when things are difficult to achieve. Players should get out what they put in and not be yoyo'd to the front of the pack Mario Kart style. All valid points.
Suggesting that people quit their job in order to have a shot at ATTEMPTING the content is spot on? Seriously?
All these points are complete straw-man arguments. Of course not everybody deserves everything, but nobody is claiming that they do. The issue people are discussing is what form the difficulty should take, not the level of difficulty.
CanadinaXegony said:Long as we're not competing with botters...I'll report every one I find. And that's a promise.
Thank you for knowning the difference, its refreshing when ppl know the difference. EQ is filled with those script kiddies...
The team is already aware who they are. I tool will be on your side helping remove them from the world. 24 hr script kiddies, go find something else to do.
"Pantheon is a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game (MMORPG) that takes place on Terminus, a high fantasy world of powerful deities, valiant heroes, insidious enemies and fantastic creatures. Pantheon focuses on challenging content and social aspects of gameplay, encouraging groups and guilds, forging new relationships, and earning a reputation in the community.
In addition to traditional fantasy races and classes, the world of Terminus has been formed from the ‘shipwrecked’ fragments of many different realms and worlds, bringing their unique civilizations and Celestial deities with them. It is into the current age of this wonderful and mysterious world that players will step foot for the first time. Realms long lost will be explored anew. Peoples and cultures striving to gain a foothold in this unfamiliar world will form alliances and vie for power. Uncovered civilizations and awe-inspiring locales will offer new and incredible adventures for you and your friends to experience. Enter a world where the environment itself tells the story and where content is always king.
Because Pantheon values the paradigm of great risk vs. great reward, the player will always be encouraged to push themselves out the door and to embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them. Imagine an expansive, detailed and lore-rich world where the environment itself tells much of the story. Envision challenging content, meaningful character progression, and compelling social and group-oriented game play along with opportunities to both solo and raid. This is Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen."
Let us never forget what "open-world" truly means. Terminus isn't going to be Groundhog Day meets The Matrix -- the world is persistent and every action matters. The world does not revolve around any one player, it simply exists and allows you an opportunity to experience what it has to offer. The world is going to be awe-inspiring, incredible, and mysterious.
"Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.
As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you."
Let's also consider the following takeaway from a study conducted by Nick Yee that focuses on how competition and community actually compliment each other rather than contradict: https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/03/23/competition-not-opposite-community/
"Together, the data suggests that conceptualizing Competition and Community as polar opposites is unproductive (and doesn’t reflect reality). More often than not, they are aligned and load onto a single Social factor. But when thinking or brainstorming about Social features in games, the important secondary motivation to take into account is Conflict, and whether the degree of Conflict introduced into a game aligns with the preferences of the target audience. And of course, while the high-level findings serve as an interesting guide post, it’s most important to understand the motivations of your specific target audience."
The "conflict" element that players crave is knowing that resources are finite -- this is an important distinction in an open-world game and should be viewed as highly significant while considering your "target audience." The horrible assumption that is so frequently expressed is the idea that competitive players only derive satisfaction from denying enjoyment from others. The reality is that we want our accomplishments to mean something and we don't get that when we're spoon-fed content. When it comes to an item like the "Flaming Sword of Sovereignty" -- we want to know that this item is truly rare. It isn't a matter of being "capable" of acquiring it. It's a matter of going out there and doing what needs to be done to get it. If that involves competing with other players ... great! All that means to me is that the item is so desirable that multiple players or groups are willing to spend their time for a chance to acquire it. This conflict is structured and can be an excellent motivator for teams to pull together and help their friends achieve great things.
I'm going to paraphrase something I heard from Joe Rogan while he was speaking on personal growth: Hardcore players crave the idea of doing things that are difficult. We feel that it's very important to struggle. We don't buy into the philosophy that we need to constantly seek comfort. We're supposed to seek lessons, difficult tasks, and accomplishments ... and through those things, and through doing things that are hard to do, even if it's spending a few hours competing for a chance to acquire something ... this life doesn't have enough of that ... there isn't enough struggle. You don't get to know yourself without struggle ... you don't get to know your boundaries unless you push them. You don't get to know who you are, really, unless you are tested.
Most people who want to be a part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure. Achievements are more meaningful when there isn't an expectation that you will achieve them simply because you are capable. Put in the work ... embrace that others will be doing the same, and embark on a journey where choices matter. Stop saying "I can't" and assuming that every ounce of competition is going to be Brock Lesnar vs Zach Gowen. Here is another quote to consider from Confucius: "The Man who says he can, and the man who says he can not .. Are both correct."
A little more paraphrasing from Joe Rogan: Everybody has these barriers that they put in their own head. You need to resist those damn things because they don't do you any good and they certainly define the potential for your future in a negative way ... it's not self serving, and it's not even real. The idea that there is no way to get past the starting block today is just ludicrous. It's poor thinking ... and the people who are trapped in these bad situations, one of the problems is that you feel like this is your future. There is no hope, there is no rainbow, no light at the end of the tunnel. If you genuinely feel like that ... that alone can be incredibly defining and limiting.
Tevarion said:Actually the old style, free for all, having guilds hop over each other and scramble to get people on was one of the things i love most about eq raiding because when we cleared a raid or killed a boss or got a server first it meant that much more. It was truly...not just anyone can do this. Post eq one of the things i have hatted the most is this constant strive to appeal to all players under one roof and allow everyone to have a chance to see the same end game and get the same epic gear regardless if they play 40hrs a week or 2....I PERSONALLY DESPISE THAT!
You have a job and cant dedicate the time to learn and clear Plane of TIme, but you want to be able to get the same stuff and kill the same mobs as those of us who would duck out of work for a 30min to kill a world boss? screw you! Just like in real life, you get out what you put in and if you cant dedicate the time to be in the high-end raid guilds then you will just have to accept that there are some things you cant get and some mobs you cant kill, or you can go play WoW or any of the dozzens of others that are trying to bow to every delicate snowflake because they think they should get a trophy for showing up.
Im sorry im old school. When i grew up if you didnt wear a helmet and crashed yoru bike you got brain damage, if you were not smart enough not to a fork in an electric socket you died...no warning labels no advocacy groups, just good ole fashion Darwinism at its best. That being said the things i hate the most about casual players who think they are "entitled" to get the same stuff as the hard-core is the entire premise is just stupid. You are saying that if you cant do everything and get everything then the game sux or you dont like it...WTF is wrong with you? (generic you not the op). There is TONS and TONS and TONS of other stuff for you to do and if the only way you can enjoy the game is get the hardest stuff then man up and quit your job or stop whinning.
The reason people drooled at epic gear and the leet drops from super hard raids was BECAUSE they knew they likely would never have a shot at it and it either motivated them or, like a celebrity, was fun to oooo and ahhh over. Besides that part of the game is less than 10%, so enjoy the other 90% and stop thinking everyone should get a damn meddal just for playing. Again, if it bothers you, Eq, Pantheon is NOT for you. if not being able to have access to 5% or 10% of the mobs/gear ruins the other 95% for you man up and become hard core or seek psychiatric help.
And for the record. Having been in a few of the top raid guilds in EQ i can tell you we OFTEN brought in other guilds or outstanding solo players on raids and their were many reasons for that. So if you cant keep the time commitments of a top raid guild but you still want to do the raids they do then become STELLAR at playing your class and i will 100% guarantee you will be noticed and you will be asked to participate in events.
Huh Tev, this game isn't a job, it shouldn't be looked at or even associated to one either, people should be able to see all content and not blocked from it due to other guilds, it should be blocked to them if they simply can't defeat him. Make the true test of the content the content itself not guild being D-bags or C-rags and if you make the content hard enough not every guild is going to make it to the end anyway, look at vanilla wow, lasted quite a while but only a handful of guilds actually completely all of the content.
Ok, you've highlighted Pantheon stuff that didn't mention competition at all (in fact just spoke of working with your friends). "Peoples and cultures striving to gain a foothold in this unfamiliar world will form alliances and vie for power" is talking about the NPCs and lore not the players. "embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them" is talking about embracing exploration, embracing adventure, embracing danger and embracing the community of players. It is not saying "embrace...danger OF the community of players".
All of that - like all the rest of the FAQ - talks about content, challenge and cooperation and only mentions competition when talking about how bad it can be and how to mitigate the negatives.
That said, I agree, if VR are going to encourage competition in Pantheon (and they have said they do want "fun/healthy competition", whatever that is) then they need it talk about it and in a positive way.
That Nick Yee study doesn't even mention content denial when talking about conflict (and seems to just think in terms of WoW). Not sure how useful that is.
"The "conflict" element that players crave is knowing that resources are finite"
Not really. I want resources to be challenging to get and fun to gather. I don't mind how that is achieved, necessarily. I'd rather it protected by monsters I can work with players to overcome, than have to beat a player to it.
"When it comes to an item like the "Flaming Sword of Sovereignty" -- we want to know that this item is truly rare"
Not me. I want it to be challenging to obtain. I don't really care if 10 others have it, because they had to be as rough and tough and beat the same content as me to get it. Good for them!
"It isn't a matter of being "capable" of acquiring it. It's a matter of going out there and doing what needs to be done to get it."
Like if I want a new TV, it doesn't matter if I can work to afford one. I should just go out and steal one? Not sure the point there.
"If that involves competing with other players ... great!"
No. Not great. Not innately. Why is that great? Where did that 'fact' come from?
"This conflict is structured and can be an excellent motivator for teams to pull together and help their friends achieve great things"
Conflict is very rarely structured and one person's friend is another's enemy. Just because I form a bond with someone to overcome another player that doesn't trump and 'beat' the negative of having to be unpleasant to another person to achieve what I want. War is not good just because it causes a population to pull together.
"We feel that it's very important to struggle. We don't buy into the philosophy that we need to constantly seek comfort."
Blah blah blah yeah yeah anyone who *doesn't* want to fight with other people *must* want constant comfort? NO. We want the conflict to be *the game* not other people in the game. We want to fight *alongside* other people not have to push other people out of the way to have fun. Not wanting conflict *with players* does not make us wussy comfort-seekers any more than enjoying competition makes you a sociopath...
"Confucius: "The Man who says he can, and the man who says he can not .. Are both correct.""
Great and we are equating people who don't want contention with people who "cannot"? It is not that I *cannot* endure or even succeed in conflict, I simply *do not want to*. It isn't *fun* to me in an MMORPG.
All this is somewhat illustrative of the issue, I think. I know @oneADseven really wants competition to be seen in a positive light and I agree it would be best if we are going to think of ways it could work, BUT when competitive types appear to see people who are not competitive as somehow 'lesser' or having a problem to overcome in order to join in, there isn't going to be any common ground.
It is not a problem that I don't wish to conflict with other players in an MMORPG. It's not a problem that others like to conflict with others. It's only a problem when there are no rules to reconcile these, because the competitive type will, obviously, get their kicks and run rough-shod cackling gleefully over the carebears, because *they* can enjoy conflict *whether or not* the other side does.
Competitive is not 'better', any more than PvP is 'better' than PvE. It is a preference.
Competition (or at least conflict and contention) is not 'inevitable'. Most people (including VR according to the FAQ) realise it needs to be carefully limited because it causes many problems.
Competition is an extra layer on top of MMORPGs that some like and some do not. It's as simple as that. To competitive types, that layer is icing on the cake. To non-competitive types it is a crust of mould to scrape off or eat around.
If we want to make something palatable to all, we need to be realistic about what competition/contention/conflict in MMORPGs really is and means to *everyone*.
You can tell from my language here, that I perhaps have some work to do being more 'accepting' of competitive types. Perhaps myself and oneADseven can come together and solve the (MMORPG) world's competition problems?
Disclaimer: To be clear, I am not actually *against* all forms of competition in MMORPGs and I realise the "Open World" has some inherent competition, but I know very well that there are very undesirable effects from letting competition run free for it's own sake. We all know there are. I simply do not wish to see Pantheon ignore that.
It is true that we should all have access to standard(not dynamic) content if we attain the levels through hardwork, attain the skill through long hours of gaming, and have the raid force to attempt the content. It is an RPG after all and it runs on an exp system. You don't play 1000+ hours on a console RPG just to not see the main boss. So yes, if there is someone physically preventing you from accessing content by being a *BLEEP* then the game needs to somehow allow for content sharing. And not every remedy is the same for every situation. There isnt a magic bandaid that can fix everything.
That being said, i don't just expect to go fight Boss A whenever i feel like it. Sometimes you will have to go do something else. That is the nature of this type of MMORPG. But if i go 2-3 weeks and still don't even get a chance at this Boss A and have checked the spawn every day i am going to speak up.