I admit I was disappointed when I read that there are no plans to have a Bazaar in Pantheon. EQ was a huge part of my life (I met my wife playing EQ, actually), and I still miss a lot of things about it. Something I don't miss is sitting in GFay watching spam scroll across the chat window.
If the goal is to bring back socialization (and I strongly support that goal), I find it hard to imagine that someone can say repeatedly hitting a WTS/WTB macro is somehow more social than working my way to the bottom of a dungeon with a group of people, discussing tactics, game stuff, real world stuff, joking around, and the elation of working together to make it to the spot we were trying to get to. It is simply rose colored glasses to say that /auc spam was more social than the group adventure experiences.
Regionally locked bartering and banking systems are a no-go. They just don't work and cause way too many issues. There is a reason why they ALWAYS get dumped and cause huge problems on forums until they are finally changed. They create ridiculously tedious wastes of time where you're doing absolutely nothing in your play time but spending hours riding boats to get to another place just to see if someone has something for sale, which they don't, then traveling on somewhere else.
The very LEAST that should be incorporated is a global bulletin board system for WTS and WTB advertisements. Anything less than that will cause problems eventually. Global opt-in/out channels are important, too. If I'm in the market for something let me turn on the market channel and hear what's going on around the world. I still have to travel to consummate the deal.
It's great and all to miss old EQ. I miss it too. But I remember the bad parts, too, and I'd rather have a game that helps to eliminate some of those bad parts and stays running than a game that keeps all the worst parts just because that's how it used to be and consequently the game doesn't last.
Searril said: I find it hard to imagine that someone can say repeatedly hitting a WTS/WTB macro is somehow more social than working my way to the bottom of a dungeon with a group of people
The point is that after spamming WTB/WTS you get to do a live chat, haggling, talking about other items they may or may not have, discussing possible trades, etc etc.
One you start automating stuff, the endgame becomes an Excel sheet.
Aethor said:Searril said: I find it hard to imagine that someone can say repeatedly hitting a WTS/WTB macro is somehow more social than working my way to the bottom of a dungeon with a group of people
The point is that after spamming WTB/WTS you get to do a live chat, haggling, talking about other items they may or may not have, discussing possible trades, etc etc.
One you start automating stuff, the endgame becomes an Excel sheet.
That's not how it worked.
How it worked, was someone finally responds to your WTS spam. They say "will you take Xpp". You say "yes" or "no, how about Ypp". That person either says "yes" in which case the trade is made or "no" and you both move on. The entire exchange was about 30 seconds.
Whereas working a dungeon could easily have a group socializing for hours.
There is simply no comparison. Out playing the game with people is astoundingly more social than forcing people to spam WTS/WTB over and over. If we want to encourage socialization, then get people back to playing together, not sitting hitting a /auc button.
Perhaps there won't be item discrepencies between regional markets to the extent that it will make players (or a player) completely ineffective to get the job done tramping through a dungeon because it takes too long to get to the other side of the world? I think some people make the assumption that just because they don't have instant and immediate access to all markets at once they absolutely won't have the BIS item for every moment they play.
Is it possible that regional markets could have what people are looking for?
Is it possible to create a regional system that improves on previous offerings?
Is it possible that one will not be able to find exactly what they 'need' in either case?
Searril said: The very LEAST that should be incorporated is a global bulletin board system for WTS and WTB advertisements. Anything less than that will cause problems eventually. Global opt-in/out channels are important, too. If I'm in the market for something let me turn on the market channel and hear what's going on around the world. I still have to travel to consummate the deal.It's great and all to miss old EQ. I miss it too. But I remember the bad parts, too, and I'd rather have a game that helps to eliminate some of those bad parts and stays running than a game that keeps all the worst parts just because that's how it used to be and consequently the game doesn't last.
I'm absolutely with you, but you just will not disuade some folks that any slight convenience in the game will ruin it.
EC tunnel type trading was a needlessly unpleasant pain in the arse years ago, was a pain in the arse playing P99 more recently and will be a pain in the arse in Pantheon if they decide that "no system" is the best system.
I suppose we will just have to use PantheonAuctions.com
Searril said:I admit I was disappointed when I read that there are no plans to have a Bazaar in Pantheon. EQ was a huge part of my life (I met my wife playing EQ, actually), and I still miss a lot of things about it. Something I don't miss is sitting in GFay watching spam scroll across the chat window.
If the goal is to bring back socialization (and I strongly support that goal), I find it hard to imagine that someone can say repeatedly hitting a WTS/WTB macro is somehow more social than working my way to the bottom of a dungeon with a group of people, discussing tactics, game stuff, real world stuff, joking around, and the elation of working together to make it to the spot we were trying to get to. It is simply rose colored glasses to say that /auc spam was more social than the group adventure experiences.
Regionally locked bartering and banking systems are a no-go. They just don't work and cause way too many issues. There is a reason why they ALWAYS get dumped and cause huge problems on forums until they are finally changed. They create ridiculously tedious wastes of time where you're doing absolutely nothing in your play time but spending hours riding boats to get to another place just to see if someone has something for sale, which they don't, then traveling on somewhere else.
The very LEAST that should be incorporated is a global bulletin board system for WTS and WTB advertisements. Anything less than that will cause problems eventually. Global opt-in/out channels are important, too. If I'm in the market for something let me turn on the market channel and hear what's going on around the world. I still have to travel to consummate the deal.
It's great and all to miss old EQ. I miss it too. But I remember the bad parts, too, and I'd rather have a game that helps to eliminate some of those bad parts and stays running than a game that keeps all the worst parts just because that's how it used to be and consequently the game doesn't last.
Nailed it.
Searril said:If the goal is to bring back socialization (and I strongly support that goal), I find it hard to imagine that someone can say repeatedly hitting a WTS/WTB macro is somehow more social than working my way to the bottom of a dungeon with a group of people, discussing tactics, game stuff, real world stuff, joking around, and the elation of working together to make it to the spot we were trying to get to. It is simply rose colored glasses to say that /auc spam was more social than the group adventure experiences.
But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
The global auction house is like a vending machine. Completely impersonal. Effecient and convenient, perhaps but less social than hawking wares. Where the auction house bypasses any opportunity for social endeavor, the location hawking offers the opportunity to socialize if one so chooses.
Just as a personal example, I've spent hours in the AH when I played WoW in utter anti-social time sinks. I've also spent hours at the EC tunnel able to run around, chat, and have the opportunity to be more social when it suited me. I never felt the AH ever offered that.
Raidan said:Searril said:If the goal is to bring back socialization (and I strongly support that goal), I find it hard to imagine that someone can say repeatedly hitting a WTS/WTB macro is somehow more social than working my way to the bottom of a dungeon with a group of people, discussing tactics, game stuff, real world stuff, joking around, and the elation of working together to make it to the spot we were trying to get to. It is simply rose colored glasses to say that /auc spam was more social than the group adventure experiences.
But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
Then I don't think you and I are all that far apart. We both agree that the 1999 style is a bad idea. That's a start. You can understand why I liked the Bazaar, and I understand the market-based reasons why you disliked it (and I agree with some of them).
I think there is enough middle ground that we can come together and have something that isn't too much one way or the other. The bulletin boards are a good idea to expand on, but I don't think I could ever support regionalized banking and trading because it just never works well. Even if there is a programmed update delay between the time something is posted and the time it takes to filter out to the bulletin boards in outer regions that can be doable and sensible as long as it's not a ridiculous thing.
The hard-liners on both ends will be where the problems lie, but there are enough of us in the middle to find and suggest a middle path.
Raidan said:But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
I respect your position on this subject, and agree to some extent. However, I don't see how having some form of an AH detracts from having a living, breathing world. Terminus is a fantasy world full of magic and mystery. An AH could be viewed as some form of scrying mirror, or perhaps a magical reflection pool, that allows one to view distant markets to purchase goods, and then have those goods sent to you by some magical means. Just an example of perceiving a mechanic in order to aid in the suspension of disbelief. Wanting the virtual world to be as realistic as possible is great, but there comes a point, at least imho, where realism can become tedium, and detract from the overall experience. The virtual world for me is an escape from the mundane reality that I live everyday. I play to have fun and get away from the tedium of the real world. Having mechanics in the world that alleviates that tedium is more than just a convenience to me. It allows me to spend my time adventuring instead of performing those mundane tasks. Suspension of disbelief is required to play in a fantasy world with contents that fly in the face of the actual reality we live in. Why is it unreasonable to extend that to an AH? Just my 2cp.
Grymmlocke said:Raidan said:But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
I respect your position on this subject, and agree to some extent. However, I don't see how having some form of an AH detracts from having a living, breathing world. Terminus is a fantasy world full of magic and mystery. An AH could be viewed as some form of scrying mirror, or perhaps a magical reflection pool, that allows one to view distant markets to purchase goods, and then have those goods sent to you by some magical means. Just an example of perceiving a mechanic in order to aid in the suspension of disbelief. Wanting the virtual world to be as realistic as possible is great, but there comes a point, at least imho, where realism can become tedium, and detract from the overall experience. The virtual world for me is an escape from the mundane reality that I live everyday. I play to have fun and get away from the tedium of the real world. Having mechanics in the world that alleviates that tedium is more than just a convenience to me. It allows me to spend my time adventuring instead of performing those mundane tasks. Suspension of disbelief is required to play in a fantasy world with contents that fly in the face of the actual reality we live in. Why is it unreasonable to extend that to an AH? Just my 2cp.
Great post Grymmlocke, Gaming should be enjoyed not endured.
Oldtimer said:Grymmlocke said:Raidan said:But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
I respect your position on this subject, and agree to some extent. However, I don't see how having some form of an AH detracts from having a living, breathing world. Terminus is a fantasy world full of magic and mystery. An AH could be viewed as some form of scrying mirror, or perhaps a magical reflection pool, that allows one to view distant markets to purchase goods, and then have those goods sent to you by some magical means. Just an example of perceiving a mechanic in order to aid in the suspension of disbelief. Wanting the virtual world to be as realistic as possible is great, but there comes a point, at least imho, where realism can become tedium, and detract from the overall experience. The virtual world for me is an escape from the mundane reality that I live everyday. I play to have fun and get away from the tedium of the real world. Having mechanics in the world that alleviates that tedium is more than just a convenience to me. It allows me to spend my time adventuring instead of performing those mundane tasks. Suspension of disbelief is required to play in a fantasy world with contents that fly in the face of the actual reality we live in. Why is it unreasonable to extend that to an AH? Just my 2cp.
Great post Grymmlocke, Gaming should be enjoyed not endured.
Yes, I agree with Grymmlocke. How about we have an AH for those that do want to use it, and those that don't want to use it, well, they dont have to? Even if there is an AH there can still be active selling of items through market places at various sites via trade chat channels. If there is enough demand for that style of trading it will work, if there isn't any demand for it then the AH will provide the framework for trading.
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
I'd be ok with a trading district in a city where you could setup in a stall and display your wares. You'd still have to be online to man the stall and call out to those passing by to let them know of the awesome loots you were selling. I liked the EQ1 bazaar setup but would prefer that there not be a way to search it and have all the sellers AFK. I think it'd also be interesting for players that thrived on selling to be able to buy an actual shop where they could lay out products to sell.
I think the problem that I have with the typical auction house is that the buyer and seller have absolutely zero interaction with each other. I have fond memories of the EC tunnel but none of any AH window. In terms of socialization and getting back to the roots of what made MMOs of the past so great, an auction house just doesn't fit the build because it cuts out so much for 'ease'. I get that what's fun to some isn't fun for others and I see that finding a balance isn't that simple. I'd be happy if an inbetween compromise could be found. But if we're talking about cutting out some aspects of the game just to make it easier and less tedious, why not make leveling easier, finding groups easier, raiding easier, all characters OP, and give everyone an 'I Win' button and call the game WoW.
To me, it is not even about the social interaction of trading, it is about the sterile environment an automated Action House.
I don't mind a centralized listing of items, to eliminate the wall of shout texts WTB/WTS, but I still want the seller to have to be present. Otherwise that just leads to people setting up their sales and going to bed.
If you want to sell something, you should be in game and available. This also helps fluctuaute the market during lower population times.
Searril said:That's not how it worked.How it worked, was someone finally responds to your WTS spam. They say "will you take Xpp". You say "yes" or "no, how about Ypp". That person either says "yes" in which case the trade is made or "no" and you both move on. The entire exchange was about 30 seconds.
If that's how it worked for you, either you had bad luck in finding only sellers who weren't willing to talk, or you haven't tried to talk.
I did talk to sellers, I don't think it was ever only 30 seconds, I discussed the item, other items they had, prices on the market, etc etc, sometimes another person would join for a 3-way conversation.
Now, you might or might not find people willing to talk; but in an auction house you for sure never will, because there are no humans in there. I want a chance at talking to people.
So much activity for this topic...must be a big deal right?
A few considerations people need to evaluate in my humble opinion:
As mentioned recently, this is not 1999...and the devs realize this. To think that we will be limited to the EC Tunnel (or Freeport) experience that we encountered in EQ is not realistic. We have obviously progressed from a buying/selling system that was formed from a necessity since there were no other options, BUT what the general community has seen from progression of this original market has not worked. Zero interaction from the buyer or seller in either a haggle or simple greeting situation is completely unacceptable when considering the tenants of this game. We need more than a torch to set up shop at in one region, but what's wrong with multiple occurrences of this ‘torch’ across the globe, where different regions have their own market that allows for people who want to travel to profit upon this. Although it can be seen as an inconvenience, isn’t it the most immersed approach? Bulletin boards (regionally) listing what people have? Fine. It will still require the interested party to contact the seller to ask about the item. But being able to buy that item with never speaking or meeting the person in-game is just a repetition of the broken system we see in games known as an auction house now. People will buy and sell things regardless of the effort, it will happen. Why not just let it roll without a AH and see what happens?
Why areb there buyers and sellers? Somewhere in the whole aspect of MMORPG the concept of "someone wants this item and I can supply it to them" took hold instead of simply destroying the item or selling it to the vendor. And human nature the way it is put a price on the exchange of the item. It may have been buy and sell and it may have been trade. But somewhere in there the interaction between players was a dynamic that players wanted - it is why it exists. So why an auction house? There can only be two reasons for an auction house. Players that want to acquire the item in the easiest manner as generically possible and players that want to sell an item to get more in exchange than what can be had from a vendor in the easiest manner as generically possible (they could always sell the item to a vendor for less but they don't).
So, the generally accepted tennents of the game are "not for the easiest manner as generically possible," and a return to playing that isn't in the easiest manner as generically possible.
Strictly from that standpoint the answer is "NO to the auction house" - it caters to the easiest manner as possible theme.
I would prefer not having a global auction house, doesnt fit the time period even in a fantasy setting.
Could see having local markets that charge to list items and a fee for the sale, would still need to travel to each to view or list on each market. Players could sale items on their own to avoid the taxes/fees.
This would give players different options.
Death to the Global Auction House!!!
Vaultarn said:Oldtimer said:Grymmlocke said:Raidan said:But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
I respect your position on this subject, and agree to some extent. However, I don't see how having some form of an AH detracts from having a living, breathing world. Terminus is a fantasy world full of magic and mystery. An AH could be viewed as some form of scrying mirror, or perhaps a magical reflection pool, that allows one to view distant markets to purchase goods, and then have those goods sent to you by some magical means. Just an example of perceiving a mechanic in order to aid in the suspension of disbelief. Wanting the virtual world to be as realistic as possible is great, but there comes a point, at least imho, where realism can become tedium, and detract from the overall experience. The virtual world for me is an escape from the mundane reality that I live everyday. I play to have fun and get away from the tedium of the real world. Having mechanics in the world that alleviates that tedium is more than just a convenience to me. It allows me to spend my time adventuring instead of performing those mundane tasks. Suspension of disbelief is required to play in a fantasy world with contents that fly in the face of the actual reality we live in. Why is it unreasonable to extend that to an AH? Just my 2cp.
Great post Grymmlocke, Gaming should be enjoyed not endured.
Yes, I agree with Grymmlocke. How about we have an AH for those that do want to use it, and those that don't want to use it, well, they dont have to? Even if there is an AH there can still be active selling of items through market places at various sites via trade chat channels. If there is enough demand for that style of trading it will work, if there isn't any demand for it then the AH will provide the framework for trading.
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
As someone who wishes there would be a Bazaar I can tell you this isn't going to work. As long as there is a Bazaar type function it will be used. So this is not one of those types of things where you can just say "don't use it if you don't like it". Again, I'm a Bazaar supporter and even I can easily recognize this.
Also, Brad has made it clear that there will not be a Bazaar which is why I'm not going to waste my time asking for one. It's far more productive to come up with reasonable solutions such as fully searchable bulletin boards and the like.
And this leads me to something else I must repeat again: Region based banking and bartering do not work. Period. Anybody who is asking for those is being unreasonable. I'm fairly confident Brad will do his homework and realize that regionalizing banks and trade doesn't work and is a waste of time putting in as it would just be removed in a patch not long after the game goes live.
Grymmlocke said:I of course understand the convenience of the instant market systems games now have. Convenience can be nice. It's not so much about suspension of disbelief as it is losing the human touch and part of that adventuring that you talk about.Raidan said:But removal of a global AH is for much more than simply promoting socialization. I mentioned a few reasons on the first page of this thread of why I feel this way as did many others throughout this thread. And, I don't think I've seen anyone argue here that /auction spam is more social than group adventure experiences, but rather, removal of a global AH is just another factor that detracts from the overal virtual world experience. And, I see your point of saying if someone is selling than potentially they are being less social than talking in groups, but, having a living, breathing world feels much more social (to me) than the alternative. And, I would still reiterate there would be a lot more positives outside of just social experiences. But, like I mentioned in the other thread, I agree it isn't 1999 anymore and the EQ system could be improved upon - which there have been many ideas proposed throughout this thread.
I respect your position on this subject, and agree to some extent. However, I don't see how having some form of an AH detracts from having a living, breathing world. Terminus is a fantasy world full of magic and mystery. An AH could be viewed as some form of scrying mirror, or perhaps a magical reflection pool, that allows one to view distant markets to purchase goods, and then have those goods sent to you by some magical means. Just an example of perceiving a mechanic in order to aid in the suspension of disbelief. Wanting the virtual world to be as realistic as possible is great, but there comes a point, at least imho, where realism can become tedium, and detract from the overall experience. The virtual world for me is an escape from the mundane reality that I live everyday. I play to have fun and get away from the tedium of the real world. Having mechanics in the world that alleviates that tedium is more than just a convenience to me. It allows me to spend my time adventuring instead of performing those mundane tasks. Suspension of disbelief is required to play in a fantasy world with contents that fly in the face of the actual reality we live in. Why is it unreasonable to extend that to an AH? Just my 2cp.
The first guild I ever joined was a merchant guild. The people were mostly crafters but also would go hit places like HHK to either farm some bronze armor themselves or pick it up on the cheap to go and sell. Hitting up higher level spots like Guk and if they weren't camping something they were buying up whatever was being sold cheap by the people who didn't want to bother going back to EC.
They were true merchants, like the Marco Polo and the silk road kind.
That dies with the introduction of an AH and the 'traders' become more stock traders than adventurers. I don't want that going away.
Actual merchants, Haggling, Real Auctions, and Immersion all together are what make me want the Poster/Bulletin board option rather than AH or strict oldschool trade. I also think that Bulletin board should be global but with regional filters so you can easily find the item closest to you and maybe spend a gold or two extra but get it quickly. Bulletins would cut into the merchant business but it wouldn't kill it completely.
Arkoll said:But if we're talking about cutting out some aspects of the game just to make it easier and less tedious, why not make leveling easier, finding groups easier, raiding easier, all characters OP, and give everyone an 'I Win' button and call the game WoW.
This type of commenting is also not productive and makes me simply disregard anything the person has to say. If you want your opinions to be listened to it's best to start by not throwing insults at those you're trying to convince.
Zorkon said: And cash shop where I can buy 15 extra charrictor slots for $10 each, and then fill them with a max level Charrictor of each class for $50 each (that I wouldent know how to play).. I could "WIN" the game in one day for less than a weeks pay. Think of all the Subscription money I would save!
And like this...