Cromulent said:NoobieDoo said:This is why we need a compromise system that pleases both sets of players. Automate as much as you can but make face to face selling an option if you really want to probably done by taxing automated trades so you don't make as much money as you would if you had sold face to face. That way people like me could just sell using the automated systems and those that wanted to make the maximum amount of money could sell face to face.
These ideas have been put forward by other people and I think they are pretty good in general. Certainly better than the old EQ EC tunnel system which I hated with a passion.
This is what I mean though and don't understand. You want to 'automate as much as you can but make face to face an option' so you can drop off your items and have them sold while you go out and fight, craft, or adventure or whatever. If the devs can create a system where you can still drop your items off, have them sold so you don't have to sit there and sell them yourself, and then be on your way but rather it being a global AH or an NPC it is done entirely by other players...why would you still want the NPC automated route??? If players can take care of EVERYTHING for you and you still get to just drop off your wares to be sold while you fight dragons and save princesses (or princes) would you still be against an MMO that creates an environment where players run the barter system? Or would you strictly want a global AH, AH, or NPC vendors to handle something like this? I don't want to assume anything which is why I ask.
Like "Craigslist"? You can advertise, You can shop, but you need to hook up to actually make the deal? You have the automation to find it, global searching, sorting, could even do an auto /tell (if the seller is on) or an auto message if there not. And every transaction has a face to face... wherever they decide to meet.
I have to admit coming in that I simply did not read all of the previous posts.
I want an auction house, but I do NOT want what the EQ1 "bazzare" was (or became).
However it is implemented, I want to be able to be self-sufficient in so far as being able to labor and receive whatever recompense is deemed equitable between a seller and a buyer (vice versa, etc).
Frankly, I've been impressed with how Garriott is handling it (not that the remainder of the game has managed to keep my interest).
Ultimately, it's a balance and we all know these folks know how to build the Skinner box... so I'm sure they'll manage regardless my opinion and preference (but I'm hopeful that perhaps I'm finally in the viable segment of this market). :)
I see a lot of discussion regarding what would be the most social or immersive method. But what are the economic ramifications of these methods? What kind of economy do we want to see here? How much time do we want to invest in making money in the game? Why not work backwards from there?
My thoughts right now are that I don't want to farm currency for hours each day in order to be able to afford decent crafted gear. I also don't want to turn professions into nearly full-time jobs in order to accrue spending money. I have the feeling that nearly no one here has that sort of time.
Is this idealistic? What is everyone's thoughts?
AlannaTheFair said:I see a lot of discussion regarding what would be the most social or immersive method. But what are the economic ramifications of these methods? What kind of economy do we want to see here? How much time do we want to invest in making money in the game? Why not work backwards from there?
My thoughts right now are that I don't want to farm currency for hours each day in order to be able to afford decent crafted gear. I also don't want to turn professions into nearly full-time jobs in order to accrue spending money. I have the feeling that nearly no one here has that sort of time.
Is this idealistic? What is everyone's thoughts?
I don't want to turn combat into a nearly full-time job to accrue collectibles/gear... but I betcha we'll have to! (grin)
But seriously, economics in gaming can be made to support whatever a company wishes to support. There no longer is a viable argument against player-driven or even player-created economy (not that the latter ever really was set up to succeed anywhere outside of Second Life).
The true gauge of spectrum/possibility for product-market fit is a combination of what is working for other games of this type and how much (or if) the company wants any concession to new personas and emerging markets in this "traditional" online gaming segment.
As for possibilities, well they're diverse! The true gauge of spectrum/possibility for user preference is, kind of impossible to gauge outside of horizontal segmentation to the point of being silly. (Google "Gladwell and Spaghetti Sauce" for a great talk about Moskowitz's work on horizontal segmentation! Sorry, I'm a product manager by trade and you're tempting me to get my geek on!)
They don't have to get it perfect. They only need to get it close enough to "good enough" that people won't walk away. (And we all know that complaining for years and still playing is kind of "our thing", eh?)
But beyond all that, there are far more considerations than whether or not "making money" as a player is "easy" or "hard". They have to consider the balance of content to progression, to combat and craft balance, to both PvE and PvP activities, to how easily (or not) a single player, group or groups of players, etc can corner or manipulate the economy/other players. And there's so much more beyond that, but I'm already pegging the TL;DR meter.
As I said elsewhere - these folks have been at this professionally for a long time. I feel no real need to second guess them and only mildly to indicate a preference at all. So long as /trade is a channel (or can be made) and there is some manner of trading post for players to post local and regional consignments, I'm good.
Would I LIKE to be able to search, purchase, and receive auction house items anywhere I want? Hell yes. But I'd rather have it as a gadget or ability or ADD ON than to have them spend time on it here, now.
Minimum Viable Product = What you HAVE to have to launch and begin receiving revenue.
If it turns out there is a compelling ask for more/better after launch, the data will show it (not like there's a lot of "selling" happening from the forums in any game... we don't sell them on changes unless it's nigh unanimous, and, depending on the company, not even then.)
( Edit for typos that insist and persist in pwning me. :( )
Random1 said:(Google "Gladwell and Spaghetti Sauce" for a great talk about Moskowitz's work on horizontal segmentation! Sorry, I'm a product manager by trade and you're tempting me to get my geek on!)
Please don't feel tempted, but rather encouraged to share these thoughts! :)
AlannaTheFair said:Random1 said:(Google "Gladwell and Spaghetti Sauce" for a great talk about Moskowitz's work on horizontal segmentation! Sorry, I'm a product manager by trade and you're tempting me to get my geek on!)
Please don't feel tempted, but rather encouraged to share these thoughts! :)
Very kind, but I'd prefer to avoid the seemingly inevitable conflation of experience/research with opinion. As I'm sure you know, we're all PhDs here. (Note: I am not a PhD in anything but life. Heh.)
Random1 said:(Very kind, but I'd prefer to avoid the seemingly inevitable conflation of experience/research with opinion. As I'm sure you know, we're all PhDs here. (Note: I am not a PhD in anything but life. Heh.)
It's not about the experience, but rather whether the premises are valid - and whether they support the conclusion. The best I can say is to keep participating and providing references to names and studies. The more the community has to read, the more its possibilities for improving upon its understanding increase. :)
AlannaTheFair said My thoughts right now are that I don't want to farm currency for hours each day in order to be able to afford decent crafted gear. I also don't want to turn professions into nearly full-time jobs in order to accrue spending money. I have the feeling that nearly no one here has that sort of time.
So you want an easy way to make money to buy everything you want? I agree that farming is just not fun. Its not immersive and is a waste of my life. I dont agree that crafting the best items should come with little time or effort spent in achieving the skills. If everyone has the ability to make money and/or every crafted item in their profession, then what is the point of any type of trade. People will just make what they want, or items will become so cheep that making money becomes worthless or crafting items becomes meaningless.
I dont think anyone should expect to farm for cash (and I would love to see mechanics in place to stop that). I want crafted gear to be good game options and not a gimme. I have a job and a life outside of MMOs and wont have the time to spend in getting all skills up, but catering for ease of accumilation just kills games. They become tedious, few feelings of accomplishment and no meaningful player interactions. No, eventhough I wont have the time to make millions in here, I dont want to see my 1000th kill of a spider to get spider silk because they are hot in the market at the moment. I can get it from a multitude of other games. Give me a non-farming, high crafting expertise, great local economised game. Something fresh!
Last point: this game is about exploration and taking part in the environment's story lines. Trading will be a part, of course, but to turn such a fleshed out role playing game into a financial spreadsheet is just plain wrong. It shouldn't be easy for people to accrue wealth at the expense of people wanting to play the game in the way the developers want the game to be played. I dont want zone wide sales. I dont want to be hounded by advertisement in my game life, I get enough of that in real life. I want trading to be a non game invasive part of the game that I can dip in and out of as I please. Just because it has become accepted and the norm in real life, selling products as hard and as fast as possible should not be the main focus of this game. Immersive does not mean a copy of the real world. In fact, it should mean the ability to draw you into a world that is totally different than the real one. We can have a vibrant trading network without turning it into Wall Street.
In fact, get rid of coinage all together and bring in barter, the exchange of items, not cash. LOL! Now that would be a fresh approach.
Can you imagine:
"I want your Sheild of Hard Bashing, would you exchange it for my Helm of Bruttish Good Looks and my Bag of Ample Stuffing?"
"Na, I dont need your bag, I have a Sack of Greater Depth. But.. I see you have a pair of Boots of Kicking Butt. I might be tempted by that..."
"Mmm.. I think you are over stating the worth of the shield. Tell you want, throw in the Gloves of Grippiness and you have a deal. Deal?"
"Deal!"
Much more immersive than "here's 100 gold for the shield". Yes I know this wont happen, but it would be an interesting system!
So you want an easy way to make money to buy everything you want?
Well, I actually never said that. Negation of a concept does not necessarily equal its opposite. In fact, I welcome creative solutions as to how farming can be avoided while difficulty is preserved. I just don't want to spend forty hours per week in order to make money.
Back in Vanguard, platinum coins could be earned through especially challenging feats. I don't suggest that platinum coins become a currency, but the idea that certain group-based feats that require an especially skilled group can result in extra money is a suggestion.
Well, I actually never said that. Negation of a concept does not necessarily equal its opposite. In fact, I welcome creative solutions as to how farming can be avoided while difficulty is preserved. I just don't want to spend forty hours per week in order to make money.
My apologies, maybe I was flippant, but the implication was certainly there, even if the phrasing wasn’t. The point I wanted to make, however is a real concern of mine. I will not waste my life farming mobs for coin or rare goods again, even if it means me giving up on a game. If I play a game, I want to spend my time learning about the world my characters live in, not wasting in artificial time sinks.
Eliseus said:I would like to actually play the game instead of shouting for hours and ending up on peoples ignore trying to sell items. Thanks.
You're doing exactly what I was talking about. You're making it sound like lacking an AH there's one option, and one option alone. It's a lie.
Use the /auction channel and you wont end up on anyone's ignore list.
Hit your auction macro occasionally, and you will buy/sell things. Admittedly it wont be instant gratification, but that's part of the foundation of this game.
Hire that guildmate who loves trading to sit in the inevitable trading hotspot and do his thing for you. Hand him the stuff you want to sell, and tell him the stuff you're looking to buy.
Remember the names of people who you seem to end up getting things from or the people who tend to like to buy things up for resale. Send them a direct tell with what you have/want and see if a deal can be made.
None of this is difficult. None of it is a burden. None of it is overly complicated by some forced, false, gimmicky system that's brimming with good intentions (*cough*) and ripe for exploitation and unintended consequences.
Dullahan said:Searril said:So one is a building in a location with a board that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
The other is an NPC in a different location that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
Still seeing a distinction without a difference.
The difference between those two is obviously not the player interaction part.
The difference is that with a global AH, the extreme convenience makes traditional forms of trade less likely. It also becomes a very easy way to game the market. When you cannot globally search and purchase items or sit in one place buying low and selling high all day, it actually makes manual trade more viable. Particularly when it comes at no additional cost and automation is taxed.
It seems that people keep saying we should avoid an auction house because we want to force player interaction. Now here I'm seeing support for a form of selling that doesn't force "socialization" and interaction.
I just don't see how this proposal in any way solves what people repeatedly say is the goal -- to force personal interaction. Basically, all I'm seeing boils down to "I hate the auction house so I'm going to come up with anything I can think of to replace it with something else, even if that something else doesn't even support what I said I wanted to begin with."
Zorkon said:Like "Craigslist"? You can advertise, You can shop, but you need to hook up to actually make the deal? You have the automation to find it, global searching, sorting, could even do an auto /tell (if the seller is on) or an auto message if there not. And every transaction has a face to face... wherever they decide to meet.
I suggested as much pages ago, but then people started in with this "regional searching only" stuff which is ridiculous. It contributes nothing to the game other than to make people waste hours checking various listings to see if what they want is for sale.
Some people here are simply unwilling to compromise on things.
My apologies, maybe I was flippant, but the implication was certainly there, even if the phrasing wasn't. The point I wanted to make, however is a real concern of mine. I will not waste my life farming mobs for coin or rare goods again, even if it means me giving up on a game. If I play a game, I want to spend my time learning about the world my characters live in, not wasting in artificial time sinks.
No need to apologize. Miscommunication sometimes happens. :)
It sounds like you and I agree on how player time should be spent. I don't have any specific solutions regarding this problem. Do you have any suggestions? I really don't want to see a system in which I need an exorbitant amount of cash in order to purchase decent items.
It sounds like you and I agree on how player time should be spent. I don't have any specific solutions regarding this problem. Do you have any suggestions? I really don't want to see a system in which I need an exorbitant amount of cash in order to purchase decent items.
Eventhough I was (semi) joking about a barter system, I think it could have a role in the game. I need a stack of healing potions that you make, you need a rune enscribed hood that I make. Lets swap items instead of worrying about how much gold each item sets us back. If we both feel the exchange is fair for what we are giving and receiving, then there is no advantage taken. No need for coin. Only two crafters exchanging their wares, crafting skill exchange rather than hours spent killing giant rats. Although to some, skilling up crafting would feel like farming. However it applies to mob drops as much as crafted items.
The difficulty is in meeting in the first place. Thats where village notice boards, word of mouth, guild mates and other game mechanics all come in to play.
If people can move away from a fixation about how much gold is in the bank to fair and open swapping of goods, then farming for the sake of gold would become pointless.
(I was going to keep this one short, but my mind starts wandering, ho hum...)
On a point of gold farming and immersion. Why do animal mobs drop coins? I can understand stumbling across a body in a giant spider lair that has coins, but why would the spider have 5 silver pieces on it? I would like to see all wild animals not drop coins and only have crafting items. Maybe coins in the lairs of such creature, but not on them. I would also like to see it impossible to kill 50 skeletons and take all their equipment to a tavern and sell it at one go. If there was a realistic limitation on weight and size of items that could be carried, then farming would not be practical.
chenzeme said:It sounds like you and I agree on how player time should be spent. I don't have any specific solutions regarding this problem. Do you have any suggestions? I really don't want to see a system in which I need an exorbitant amount of cash in order to purchase decent items.
Eventhough I was (semi) joking about a barter system, I think it could have a role in the game. I need a stack of healing potions that you make, you need a rune enscribed hood that I make. Lets swap items instead of worrying about how much gold each item sets us back. If we both feel the exchange is fair for what we are giving and receiving, then there is no advantage taken. No need for coin. Only two crafters exchanging their wares, crafting skill exchange rather than hours spent killing giant rats. Although to some, skilling up crafting would feel like farming. However it applies to mob drops as much as crafted items.
The difficulty is in meeting in the first place. Thats where village notice boards, word of mouth, guild mates and other game mechanics all come in to play.
If people can move away from a fixation about how much gold is in the bank to fair and open swapping of goods, then farming for the sake of gold would become pointless.
(I was going to keep this one short, but my mind starts wandering, ho hum...)
On a point of gold farming and immersion. Why do animal mobs drop coins? I can understand stumbling across a body in a giant spider lair that has coins, but why would the spider have 5 silver pieces on it? I would like to see all wild animals not drop coins and only have crafting items. Maybe coins in the lairs of such creature, but not on them. I would also like to see it impossible to kill 50 skeletons and take all their equipment to a tavern and sell it at one go. If there was a realistic limitation on weight and size of items that could be carried, then farming would not be practical.
Realistic limitations on how much we can carry? What about the realistic limitation of shooting magic spells out of my magic Wand of Flame +1?
Feyshtey said:Eliseus said:I would like to actually play the game instead of shouting for hours and ending up on peoples ignore trying to sell items. Thanks.
You're doing exactly what I was talking about. You're making it sound like lacking an AH there's one option, and one option alone. It's a lie.
Use the /auction channel and you wont end up on anyone's ignore list.
Hit your auction macro occasionally, and you will buy/sell things. Admittedly it wont be instant gratification, but that's part of the foundation of this game.
Hire that guildmate who loves trading to sit in the inevitable trading hotspot and do his thing for you. Hand him the stuff you want to sell, and tell him the stuff you're looking to buy.
Remember the names of people who you seem to end up getting things from or the people who tend to like to buy things up for resale. Send them a direct tell with what you have/want and see if a deal can be made.
None of this is difficult. None of it is a burden. None of it is overly complicated by some forced, false, gimmicky system that's brimming with good intentions (*cough*) and ripe for exploitation and unintended consequences.
Not true at all. The things you suggest other games have tried. Look at FFXIV 1.0 system vs just the normal AH in 2.0. They way you had to sell and buy literally pissed people off. A significant amount of people despised the bazaar from EQ1. A significant amount of peopel despised the selling method in Terra.
Fact is, you want people to agree with your suggestions. Many games have attempted something unique out of an AH because on paper, it sounds great to have this immersive economy. And I for one would love it, but it will not work. I 100% promise you if there is no AH, w/e system is implemented will be complained about until an AH is eventually added.
Better yet, take something like project1999 that has the old ecommons selling feel. People created ways for you to essentially list what you are selling over the internet, basically negating this immersive feel again that you guys want in game. If there is no AH here, this is most like going to happen also.
Oldtimer said:Realistic limitations on how much we can carry? What about the realistic limitation of shooting magic spells out of my magic Wand of Flame +1?
So you think its ok to kill 50 mobs, take all their equipment and sell it all at one go? Realistic in a gaming sense, yes! Why not? Shooting magic spells out of your flaming wand depends on how much mana you are able to muster. Why limit one game factor and not another? Again I ask, why not limit the amount of weight you can carry too, slowing down harvesters of gold?
Searril said:Dullahan said:Searril said:So one is a building in a location with a board that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
The other is an NPC in a different location that you click on to buy something without interacting with another person.
Still seeing a distinction without a difference.
The difference between those two is obviously not the player interaction part.
The difference is that with a global AH, the extreme convenience makes traditional forms of trade less likely. It also becomes a very easy way to game the market. When you cannot globally search and purchase items or sit in one place buying low and selling high all day, it actually makes manual trade more viable. Particularly when it comes at no additional cost and automation is taxed.
It seems that people keep saying we should avoid an auction house because we want to force player interaction. Now here I'm seeing support for a form of selling that doesn't force "socialization" and interaction.
I just don't see how this proposal in any way solves what people repeatedly say is the goal -- to force personal interaction. Basically, all I'm seeing boils down to "I hate the auction house so I'm going to come up with anything I can think of to replace it with something else, even if that something else doesn't even support what I said I wanted to begin with."
There's a difference between what someone says they want and what their actions over time support they actually want. One of the first things you learn when "doing" product design is that a given user, left to imagine and hope, will always imagine and hope based upon what they experienced as possible/enjoyable, what they found untenable/unenjoyable, and what they can reasonably imply/infer from historic responses from product and offering providers.
Or, succinctly - they don't always know the full realm of what is possible, they only know what they were once told they cannot have... this shapes how (or if) they try to reach beyond "status quo" in their asks.
You can't "force" personal interaction. But you can incent it (or not). The best system fails if users won't use it... fail fast experimentation/iteration is a good way to quickly figure out how to really innovate/disrupt.
Personally, I'd like to see a local/regional auction house with a mobile app to manage your listings (inventory, auction house access). But that's NOT "MVP" and it's certainly not a "dealbreaker" for me.
I say get to pre-alpha/alpha/beta, etc and experiment to see what the actual data of testers and players supports. The rest is distraction from the goal.
/tips hat
chenzeme said:So you think its ok to kill 50 mobs, take all their equipment and sell it all at one go?
I won't speak for the other guy, but for me: Yes, I absolutely do.
Okay I read some but not all of this discussion, and being that we are now on the 18th page, I would just mention...seeing in EQII and Rift, people sat at the auction house all day long ..underbidding everything. I gave up crafting things to sell in the EQII market because people put in ridiculous underbids that were lower than what an npc vendor would sell it at.
There were others that monopolized the prices...buying everything up in that category and then selling it all for higher than anyone else had been charging. I think there should be some sort of sanity inserted ..base price high price..so that at least other crafters or whomever can participate in the trades/sales as well, instead of just the gold/plat sellers and other nuisances. My question is..how or can this be regulated so that one person or one guild can't monopolize and therefore also gain control of the game economy...making it harder for newcomers to participate, etc.
Or is that even possible. Seen this happen over the years. From what I understand the developpers that made Eve Online have an actual either economist or someone similar that oversees their game economy. Is that the only way to make sure this doesn't happen in Pantheon? Forgot to mention the cost for the materials to make the object you are crafting. I tried to keep what I was charging reasonable, including the median cost of materials I had to buy to craft. Made no logical sense ...these guys were undercutting that as well. Therefore, kind of like Saudi Arabia and their glutting of the world markets, eliminating all competitors with their cheap product. Again is there any way to monitor that kind of behaviour? Keep doing that and those that craft...and charge reasonable prices, are basically locked out.
CanadinaXegony said:My question is..how or can this be regulated so that one person or one guild can't monopolize and therefore also gain control of the game economy...making it harder for newcomers to participate, etc.
Or is that even possible. Seen this happen over the years. From what I understand the developpers that made Eve Online have an actual either economist or someone similar that oversees their game economy. Is that the only way to make sure this doesn't happen in Pantheon? Forgot to mention the cost for the materials to make the object you are crafting. I tried to keep what I was charging reasonable, including the median cost of materials I had to buy to craft. Made no logical sense ...these guys were undercutting that as well. Therefore, kind of like Saudi Arabia and their glutting of the world markets, eliminating all competitors with their cheap product. Again is there any way to monitor that kind of behaviour? Keep doing that and those that craft...and charge reasonable prices, are basically locked out.
I don't think there is one sure-fire way to stop monopolies. But let's say PRotF has a form of auction house just for arguments sake. The easiest way to help protect against monopolies would be to localize the AH, or prohibit global access. With this, auction houses would be open up in many different cities and villages across the map and to find an item you would have to physically travel to a shop and search that shops specific wares. You wouldn't be able to go to one auction house and buy items that are found in another auction house. This way for somebody who has many more hours to play who can craft many more items than you and can easily undercut your prices would have to themself physically travel to the same AH NPC that you placed your items with.
I love the idea of localized barter shops because of the fact that the devs are 'supposedly' creating the zones and areas in a manner so that they never truely get outleveled or at least they are aiming to create many zones this way. Instead of creating a low level zone where players level 10 levels and then never return, they have said they want to create zones where players have cause to revisit. This creates good synergy with localized shops because it means players will revisit these same towns and barter shops. So a crafter or player trying to trade their items doesn't have to worry about this town becoming a ghost town in a month once everyone outgrows it.
Other than that though, localization of shops, I don't have a clue. I'm not great at stuff like this so I wouldn't know any other ways/tricks/or workarounds.