Pyye said:There are players that are really good at using an AH system to dominate the cash flow... They thrive on it and probably spend the majority of their time doing it to gain a financial edge. An automatic system also scares me as it encourages gold farmers to do their thing. So I get why there are extreme differences of opinion and why this thread sees no end.
I do not care for an Auto AH system for reasons i've pointed out above. Somewhere as a middle ground is fine by me. I do like the bulletin board idea and prefer a little more direct interaction between real players. It adds a realism to the game.
I am also hoping that we have more meaningful stuff to sell as I am hoping the rest of the items have multiple ways of being depleted out of the market and not just by selling it to other players. Less to sell, higher value is what I like to see. Not to mention, being able to buy off of vendors after a player sells to them. Always enjoyed that early on in EQ.
Gold sellers/farmers et al tend to dominate the AH...you see page after page of the same seller..they buy up everything then dominate with their prices. I have witnessed this many times over the years. As for vendor diving that was a favorite of mine, loved seeing what other players got in their travels. Sometimes I could afford to buy it too. hehehe Hoping the Devs come up with a new system for AH (if they must put this in the game) that doesn't allow gold sellers/farmers run amok and mess with the game economy.
Sintec said:Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be. The vast majority of people would love to be able to live free of expenses and rules that doesn't mean that's how it should be. I know that was an extreme comparison but you get the point. I understand that the auction house made it 100 times easier to buy and sell but it deleted that 1 on 1 experience that got people to communicate with one another and develop friendships.
People's main complaint is that with no auction house you have to sit in one area spamming their sells and not being able to do anything else. For those claiming this issue you have clearly not been with out an Auction house. The East commons tunnel scenario people refer to was something the community came up with themselves. Not because that was the only way to sell but because the social aspect of it was so enjoyable. That didn't mean you had to sit there and sell and that was the only way or thing you could do. There was still a trade channel, and you could still post your sells in chat while you were grinding a camp or something.
I for one would be ok with something in the middle, but nothing automated. If you want to sell something you should have to sell it yourself through haggel and communication. The bazaar and auction house needs to go away in Pantheon. If you want the bazaar then why not play any other game out right now.
I have no interest in other games as I am heavily invested into Pantheon. The highlighted section of your statement is something that all of us should really refrain from promoting. You have no idea whether or not an AH will be present in the game. There are a huge amount of people that are dead set on enjoying the world of Terminus, but who also want to see an AH. We're in this together, one system or another, so let's avoid telling people to go play another game. It seems really insensitive to drive players away based on something that has yet to be confirmed or denied. Nobody is right or wrong for wanting to see a specific feature in the game, but since it's something we have no control over, all we can do is wait and see. We're going to test whatever VR puts out for us and make the most of it. In the meantime, it would be great if everybody could adopt the mindset that VR is working to build a home for all of us. The wants/desires of this community are obviously split when it comes to this topic, but rather than segmenting one side from the other, we need to unite and find a fair middle ground.
Having read all 34 pages of this thread, I feel the need to reprise part of a point made earlier in this thread, something still very relevant given the slant the last few pages have taken...
Evoras said:THE BIG QUESTION (that nobody has asked so far)
However .... (cat flies through air towards pigeons)
... who do we want from trading?
There is an assumption from many that all players should be involved as merchants. Should they? What if only certain players took up 'The way of the Merchant' .. in the same way that only some players actively explore, others actively take up fishing and still others focus on their Guild and its betterment? Your average player would sell his 'loot' to local NPC vendors or the nearest 'Player merchant' who is buying that kind of stuff. Only the dedicated PC merchants would play the market, buying and selling - acting as middle-men between crafters and their customers for lower end goods.
Since when did we decide...
'everyone wants to be a merchant, so lets make it easy to do'.
... did we fall into this by accident?
I would also draw your attention to:
Jimmayus said:In a similar fashion, I believe the people discussing their lack of time to play the bazaaring game are kind of missing the point. Searching for good deals on items is as much a part of the fantasy of an old school MMORPG as fighting, and to complain that such a part of the game is too tiresome seems hypocritical. Sure you may spend a day in Kingsreach checking the various merchant's inventories to find good stuff and that's all you do, but why is that a problem? Is there something wrong with existing in a more fleshed out world? Surely you will root out good deals, profit ventures, etc., complete them, and then get back to fighting?
An over-focus on removing the "tediousness" of haggling, travel, and player interdependence is precisely how we got to the modern state of mmos and is also precisely why most of us are here in the first place. I would caution people to think about that when evaluating their perspectives.
I suspect that, for any player based economy to flourish, some form of 'market search tool' would be needed. What form that would take, what distance (or scope) it would cover etc are the debatable points.
Perhaps a supremely simple system; a few tools for traders...
A (craftable) notice board to be planted where you like,
A way (perhaps) to push these notices up to the nearest 'Big City' noticeboard
A rug/barrow from which to sell,
... then let the players figure things out!
Evoras, imagines a compromise midway between no arsenic, and a Kilo of it, is not good for anyone!
Evoras said:Having read all 34 pages of this thread, I feel the need to reprise part of a point made earlier in this thread, something still very relevant given the slant the last few pages have taken...
Evoras said:THE BIG QUESTION (that nobody has asked so far)
However .... (cat flies through air towards pigeons)
... who do we want from trading?
There is an assumption from many that all players should be involved as merchants. Should they? What if only certain players took up 'The way of the Merchant' .. in the same way that only some players actively explore, others actively take up fishing and still others focus on their Guild and its betterment? Your average player would sell his 'loot' to local NPC vendors or the nearest 'Player merchant' who is buying that kind of stuff. Only the dedicated PC merchants would play the market, buying and selling - acting as middle-men between crafters and their customers for lower end goods.
Since when did we decide...
'everyone wants to be a merchant, so lets make it easy to do'.
... did we fall into this by accident?
I would also draw your attention to:
Jimmayus said:In a similar fashion, I believe the people discussing their lack of time to play the bazaaring game are kind of missing the point. Searching for good deals on items is as much a part of the fantasy of an old school MMORPG as fighting, and to complain that such a part of the game is too tiresome seems hypocritical. Sure you may spend a day in Kingsreach checking the various merchant's inventories to find good stuff and that's all you do, but why is that a problem? Is there something wrong with existing in a more fleshed out world? Surely you will root out good deals, profit ventures, etc., complete them, and then get back to fighting?
An over-focus on removing the "tediousness" of haggling, travel, and player interdependence is precisely how we got to the modern state of mmos and is also precisely why most of us are here in the first place. I would caution people to think about that when evaluating their perspectives.
I suspect that, for any player based economy to flourish, some form of 'market search tool' would be needed. What form that would take, what distance (or scope) it would cover etc are the debatable points.
Perhaps a supremely simple system; a few tools for traders...
A (craftable) notice board to be planted where you like,
A way (perhaps) to push these notices up to the nearest 'Big City' noticeboard
A rug/barrow from which to sell,... then let the players figure things out!
Evoras, imagines a compromise midway between no arsenic, and a Kilo of it, is not good for anyone!
Nice post mate, I would encourage people to follow suit and discuss what they do like, rather than what they don't like but also understanding that we won't reveal information on this subject until we are ready, so it is all speculation and assumptions at this point.
Sintec said:
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.
You are completely right. Lets take a look at what VR has in mind for Pantheon in their own words.
WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATUS?
Kilsin said:
That is pretty much it, we have settled on lots of these decisions over the last 3 years, we started these forums back in FEB 2014 and have been collecting info and taking feedback and suggestions ever since, to the point that we have already pretty much decided on most things and need to work on them some more and see them through to completion so we can test them. Which makes it hard but more reason why it was important to get in early on a game like this in development.We will still take feedback and suggestions and ask for specific feedback on certain things but for big mechanics like this, it has already been decided and we need to test it before we even consider changing anything.
Kilsin is pretty clear here that they already have a plan, it has been decided, and will be tested before considering any changes. Now, we have to determine what that plan is.
Kilsin said:
We will release more information on this system when we have done more work on it, for now, it is best to re-read these 24 pages and the streams/podcasts we have done where we have spoken about it.
So, lets read through official posts so far.
Aradune said:
I think the having your own merchant NPC that would sell your wares is a good compromise fitting in-between one extreme (everything is face to face, player to player) and the other extreme, a full on auction house. I will say that I'm leaning towards this being what we'll do. Of course, this doesn't stop player to player trades/sales.And then some kind of list board, as you mentioned.
As for the EC Tunnel part of things, while I do think people will find areas once they learn the world, the routes, efficient ways to get from point a to point b, etc. and that there will be places that make sense to place your merchant minion NPC there, I don't necessarily agree that we'll get a repeat of EQ, e.g there will be only one of these. The way the world is being crafted, where the races are, the different continents, etc. I'm hoping we would see multiple spots.
If people are concerned that because of the merchants minions that no one will do player to player trades, 1. I don't necessarily agree but 2. if that turned out to be the case in alpha and beta, we could implement a tax or similar system to encourage face to face trades.
Anyway, that's where I pretty much sit at the moment.
AND, before that quote, there was another:
Aradune said:
The most important goals related to this entire discussion are: 1. we want a thriving player driven economy 2. we want people not only compelled but rewarded for traveling and exploring the world 3. we want to put desirable items in hard to reach places and reward those merchant types for taking the risk of not just obtaining that remote item, but bringing it to more civilized and populous areas and, assuming the demand is there, selling it for a profit. I've always been intrigued by that period where the Silk Road was used and something perhaps of little worth in China when brought all the way back to Europe was quite pricey.1. Is certainly doable
2. Definitely going to reward travel and exploration in several ways
3. This is easier said than done, and no I'm not trying to make a middle-ages silk road economic simulator. But I do think distance and risk should matter. And, therefore, people taking the time to travel and to risk more should be rewarded accordingly.
So those are the basic goals.
Now comes the stuff that like I said earlier, we're not going to set in stone until alpha or even early beta:
1. I don't think we'll require the player to sit around a popular trading spot spamming WTS: blahblah for hours. I don't think anyone really wants that, right?
2. So, if we aren't going to force people to do that then *some* mechanism/feature must be present... is it a full auction house? Is it just being able to set up an NPC and put your items on it, set your prices, and then leave him there while you continue to play the game? Is it somewhere in-between or something else? I honestly don't know yet. I just have a pretty strong feeling that some sort of 'helper' is going to be necessary.
3. The next big issue seems to be 'how do I find that special item I am looking for?' Again, we can go to one extreme and I think most people agree you shouldn't have to spend hours talking to every player or their merchant NPC, one by one, trying to find that item... especially if after all that effort that item isn't even currently for sale in the zone or region you're in.
4. So then comes the 'how easy to we make it to find that item'? and 'If I can search for an item, will it be local or global or something in-between?' Great questions. Again, not setting anything in stone, but my guess is that we will end up having a way to check if a region or zone has a merchant NPC, or a player, or an AH (if we even have them) has an item you are looking for currently for sale. Global searches but regional buying? Hrm... that's not sitting with me right, but will continue to think on it.
Then there's mailing people items.... perhaps... could be a good money sink.
Anyway those are my thoughts right now -- if I missed addressing something critical please let me know.
I do think many in our audience enjoy face-to-face trading and that many don't. We therefore need to accommodate both. My gut says right now that you can set up your own NPC merchant, give it the items you want to sell, set prices, and then leave him. Then it's not face-to-face, its player interacting with NPC, and I don't think anyone has issues there, yes? No?
Bottom line: we are listening, we understand there are people with conflicting desires but we are also confident that together (you guys and us devs) we can make a regional economy not only work and make for a fun part of the game, but also accommodate both sides of this current debate (or perhaps there's more than just two sides here -- it's been quite the thread).
Aradune said:
Well, first of all what I can say for certain is there will be no global auction house or bazarre. We want travel and remote regions to matter and for trade to take place in different areas and to see items fluctuate in value depending on how hard it was or wasn't to obtain and then bring to the area where you want to sell it. A player driven economy, as I've said many times, is paramount to Pantheon.
Aradune said:
I generally like it when the players are driving things and places of commerce arise organically. That said, there is something to be said about a basic system that allows you to sell your items while offline, or that allows you to search for an item for sale in the local area you are in...
This clearly indicates that there will be NO GLOBAL auction house or bazarre. However, the option to have local automated systems clearly remains open.
Also, they are clearly intending players to have options:
Face-to-face trading (for those that prefer that)
Some kind of automated systems (for those that prefer that)
HOW DID WE GET HERE?
Lets take a look at a few more quotes.
Kilsin said:
We are most definitely creating a new game, this is nothing like an EQ or VG clone/sequel etc. and as much as that may disappoint some people, Pantheon is a new game, new IP, new ideas, based on its own lore, that involves some new and some familiar systems, mechanics and features that we thnk you will all enjoy a lot. :)
Aradune said:
That said, I still feel (for clarification: I'm sharing my thoughts with you, not annoucing exactly what Pantheon will be like, because a lot of this is not going to be finally decided until beta) that some extra tools that did not exist in EQ to help people make friends, find groupmates, trade, etc. will be necessary to help proactively build community. This being 2016 and not 1999, and with the number of people who have experienced MMOs being easily 12+ million now, combined with many of them never having played a community-driven game, I think we will see a lot of players come into Pantheon and struggle a lot at first if we don't proactively help.Now I totally understand your concerns, and if we overdo this, we'll actually hurt the community and the game itself.
But remember, we are not only targeting old school MMO players with Pantheon -- we truly believe there are a LOT of players who never experienced the first generation of MMOs who will try out Pantheon and love it. My concern, though, is that when they try the game and aren't themselves used to a community-centric, social, cooperative game, that some/many might become frustrated early on and quit. I think we may need to ease them into this 'new' (I know, really it's old) style of MMO. So that's what we've been thinking about for sometime -- how can we do that, but not go too far and make Pantheon into something it was never meant to be. We have lots of ideas, but we need to try them out in beta. But it's a big enough issue for me that I've made these posts and am looking for our existing communities feedback as well (and you guys are providing that -- thank you).
To make sure I'm being clear: I don't expect everyone who tries the game who never experienced the first generation of MMOs to like Pantheon -- Pantheon has a specific target audience and we are NOT making a game that is all things for all people. A lot of people won't like Pantheon whether we leave all of this totally up to the community or if we put in some functionality to help build community. And, as I've stated before, I'm ok with that. But I also think that a lot of people who never experienced the first generation of MMOs will LOVE Pantheon once they've experienced the magic of a community-focused, social, cooperative MMO. We need those people, and so you do you guys. And so, unlike EQ where we just let everything happen organically, we are considering 'helper' mechanics that proactively help and even push people into the community. Trade is important, and I'm glad we're talking about it, but the big one for me is making friends in-game. People just don't do that anymore because 1. they don't need to and 2. many people who play MMOs now don't want to. Again, I'm fine with #2 -- they're not going to like Pantheon. But #1 has created a situation where people who DO enjoy socialzing and cooperative play don't know to look for it, don't know how or might be hestiant to reach out to other players, etc.
It's sad in a sense -- I feel compelled to put some systems in the game that probably wouldn't be necessary if MMOs hadn't altered course in the last 5-10 years and become a different animal. But, while we can all criticize and lament this reality, it's still a reality.
Aradune said:
This really touches on a bigger issue that we're still thinking very hard about: Vanilla EQ pretty much left everything up to the players.... want to find a group? Well, we had the /lfg flag, but not much more. Players were on their own to make friends, put groups together, to sell and buy items, etc. I guess the question that often comes up is: will players newer to MMOs or who didn't play the early more open and organic MMOs struggle too much without a little help? Also: do we create some sort of local UI that helps people buy and sell? Do we let people perhaps put an item on a merchant and sell it by consignment (e.g. someone can buy it while the owner is offline)? How about grouping? How about the community in general? Should we try to be a bit proactive and help people find groups and make friends, etc.?I know one could say, well, EQ didn't need any help -- the players came together and did most of this kind of stuff themselves. But, at the same time, this isn't 1999. Many people who will try Pantheon will not have that perspective and will be coming from games that do make a proactive approach in many areas... that provide an interface, or tools, to help players with transactions, grouping, etc.
I'm personally of the opinion that there has been so much hand-holding in recent games that we should try to be proactive, within reason of course. And I say that because I know some of you are probably worried about what I am saying and that we would take this too far and start implementing dungeon-finders and such. Yes, I agree, it could be taken too far, but we won't let that happen.
Clearly, he is stating that we can do an automated selling system without destroying the spirit of the game AND without implementing other "easycore" or "convenience" features that so many people here claim will immediately follow any kind of automated selling.
So, as Sintec said:
Sintec said:
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.
@Beefcake
Insightful post, never seen some of those quotes, thank you :)
It's like Kilsin has been saying for a long time, "wait until alpha or beta to try it out" we won't know for sure until we test it.
But I feel that the bulletin board is the way to go, my personal favorite until now.
Thank you, Beefcake. I'll admit that this was one of the few threads on this board that I was not willing to read, and I definitely appreciate the summary of posts from the team. Everyone having their own merchant NPCs is cool with me. I like the idea. I'm hoping it's open to the player where the NPC will set up shop, rather than just having a big, empty space as the only place they can be placed. I like the strategy involved with this. I'd prefer if there wasn't a way to search for items through UI and you had to go around checking merchant inventories, but I can live with it either way. I'm okay with an LFG tool, and when I think of it, being able to search for players who want to join groups doesn't make anymore sense than being able to search for items players are selling, so why split hairs? Seems like a good compromise.
While a player driven economy is the goal they are rarely delivered..You can often times level and get your drops for free and latch onto every penny you have..
Let me use FFXIV for example.. I was server first to cap cooking and gathering and it was a fresh server.. At 2 weeks after launch I had 10mil+. I'm not bragging or trying to write a negative thread but crafting should be used to gear you and your friends, not to rip off the masses of Elitist(lol).. I have done this same thing across many MMO over the past years and the one thing that lets me do it, is the AH..
Rarely is gear crafted better than the dropped gear/ quested. So that means before level cap you dont need to go buy gear from the market at all.. The majority of players who want a mini game in the AH actually are saying lets rip off the player base..
Don't get me wrong I'm in favor of crafting and trading, just not the standard ah that does not work and increases botting /rmt behaviour.
Beefcake said:Sintec said:
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.You are completely right. Lets take a look at what VR has in mind for Pantheon in their own words.
WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATUS?
Kilsin said:
That is pretty much it, we have settled on lots of these decisions over the last 3 years, we started these forums back in FEB 2014 and have been collecting info and taking feedback and suggestions ever since, to the point that we have already pretty much decided on most things and need to work on them some more and see them through to completion so we can test them. Which makes it hard but more reason why it was important to get in early on a game like this in development.We will still take feedback and suggestions and ask for specific feedback on certain things but for big mechanics like this, it has already been decided and we need to test it before we even consider changing anything.
Kilsin is pretty clear here that they already have a plan, it has been decided, and will be tested before considering any changes. Now, we have to determine what that plan is.
Kilsin said:
We will release more information on this system when we have done more work on it, for now, it is best to re-read these 24 pages and the streams/podcasts we have done where we have spoken about it.So, lets read through official posts so far.
Aradune said:
I think the having your own merchant NPC that would sell your wares is a good compromise fitting in-between one extreme (everything is face to face, player to player) and the other extreme, a full on auction house. I will say that I'm leaning towards this being what we'll do. Of course, this doesn't stop player to player trades/sales.And then some kind of list board, as you mentioned.
As for the EC Tunnel part of things, while I do think people will find areas once they learn the world, the routes, efficient ways to get from point a to point b, etc. and that there will be places that make sense to place your merchant minion NPC there, I don't necessarily agree that we'll get a repeat of EQ, e.g there will be only one of these. The way the world is being crafted, where the races are, the different continents, etc. I'm hoping we would see multiple spots.
If people are concerned that because of the merchants minions that no one will do player to player trades, 1. I don't necessarily agree but 2. if that turned out to be the case in alpha and beta, we could implement a tax or similar system to encourage face to face trades.
Anyway, that's where I pretty much sit at the moment.
AND, before that quote, there was another:
Aradune said:
The most important goals related to this entire discussion are: 1. we want a thriving player driven economy 2. we want people not only compelled but rewarded for traveling and exploring the world 3. we want to put desirable items in hard to reach places and reward those merchant types for taking the risk of not just obtaining that remote item, but bringing it to more civilized and populous areas and, assuming the demand is there, selling it for a profit. I've always been intrigued by that period where the Silk Road was used and something perhaps of little worth in China when brought all the way back to Europe was quite pricey.1. Is certainly doable
2. Definitely going to reward travel and exploration in several ways
3. This is easier said than done, and no I'm not trying to make a middle-ages silk road economic simulator. But I do think distance and risk should matter. And, therefore, people taking the time to travel and to risk more should be rewarded accordingly.
So those are the basic goals.
Now comes the stuff that like I said earlier, we're not going to set in stone until alpha or even early beta:
1. I don't think we'll require the player to sit around a popular trading spot spamming WTS: blahblah for hours. I don't think anyone really wants that, right?
2. So, if we aren't going to force people to do that then *some* mechanism/feature must be present... is it a full auction house? Is it just being able to set up an NPC and put your items on it, set your prices, and then leave him there while you continue to play the game? Is it somewhere in-between or something else? I honestly don't know yet. I just have a pretty strong feeling that some sort of 'helper' is going to be necessary.
3. The next big issue seems to be 'how do I find that special item I am looking for?' Again, we can go to one extreme and I think most people agree you shouldn't have to spend hours talking to every player or their merchant NPC, one by one, trying to find that item... especially if after all that effort that item isn't even currently for sale in the zone or region you're in.
4. So then comes the 'how easy to we make it to find that item'? and 'If I can search for an item, will it be local or global or something in-between?' Great questions. Again, not setting anything in stone, but my guess is that we will end up having a way to check if a region or zone has a merchant NPC, or a player, or an AH (if we even have them) has an item you are looking for currently for sale. Global searches but regional buying? Hrm... that's not sitting with me right, but will continue to think on it.
Then there's mailing people items.... perhaps... could be a good money sink.
Anyway those are my thoughts right now -- if I missed addressing something critical please let me know.
I do think many in our audience enjoy face-to-face trading and that many don't. We therefore need to accommodate both. My gut says right now that you can set up your own NPC merchant, give it the items you want to sell, set prices, and then leave him. Then it's not face-to-face, its player interacting with NPC, and I don't think anyone has issues there, yes? No?
Bottom line: we are listening, we understand there are people with conflicting desires but we are also confident that together (you guys and us devs) we can make a regional economy not only work and make for a fun part of the game, but also accommodate both sides of this current debate (or perhaps there's more than just two sides here -- it's been quite the thread).
Aradune said:
Well, first of all what I can say for certain is there will be no global auction house or bazarre. We want travel and remote regions to matter and for trade to take place in different areas and to see items fluctuate in value depending on how hard it was or wasn't to obtain and then bring to the area where you want to sell it. A player driven economy, as I've said many times, is paramount to Pantheon.Aradune said:
I generally like it when the players are driving things and places of commerce arise organically. That said, there is something to be said about a basic system that allows you to sell your items while offline, or that allows you to search for an item for sale in the local area you are in...This clearly indicates that there will be NO GLOBAL auction house or bazarre. However, the option to have local automated systems clearly remains open.
Also, they are clearly intending players to have options:
Face-to-face trading (for those that prefer that)
Some kind of automated systems (for those that prefer that)HOW DID WE GET HERE?
Lets take a look at a few more quotes.
Kilsin said:
We are most definitely creating a new game, this is nothing like an EQ or VG clone/sequel etc. and as much as that may disappoint some people, Pantheon is a new game, new IP, new ideas, based on its own lore, that involves some new and some familiar systems, mechanics and features that we thnk you will all enjoy a lot. :)Aradune said:
That said, I still feel (for clarification: I'm sharing my thoughts with you, not annoucing exactly what Pantheon will be like, because a lot of this is not going to be finally decided until beta) that some extra tools that did not exist in EQ to help people make friends, find groupmates, trade, etc. will be necessary to help proactively build community. This being 2016 and not 1999, and with the number of people who have experienced MMOs being easily 12+ million now, combined with many of them never having played a community-driven game, I think we will see a lot of players come into Pantheon and struggle a lot at first if we don't proactively help.Now I totally understand your concerns, and if we overdo this, we'll actually hurt the community and the game itself.
But remember, we are not only targeting old school MMO players with Pantheon -- we truly believe there are a LOT of players who never experienced the first generation of MMOs who will try out Pantheon and love it. My concern, though, is that when they try the game and aren't themselves used to a community-centric, social, cooperative game, that some/many might become frustrated early on and quit. I think we may need to ease them into this 'new' (I know, really it's old) style of MMO. So that's what we've been thinking about for sometime -- how can we do that, but not go too far and make Pantheon into something it was never meant to be. We have lots of ideas, but we need to try them out in beta. But it's a big enough issue for me that I've made these posts and am looking for our existing communities feedback as well (and you guys are providing that -- thank you).
To make sure I'm being clear: I don't expect everyone who tries the game who never experienced the first generation of MMOs to like Pantheon -- Pantheon has a specific target audience and we are NOT making a game that is all things for all people. A lot of people won't like Pantheon whether we leave all of this totally up to the community or if we put in some functionality to help build community. And, as I've stated before, I'm ok with that. But I also think that a lot of people who never experienced the first generation of MMOs will LOVE Pantheon once they've experienced the magic of a community-focused, social, cooperative MMO. We need those people, and so you do you guys. And so, unlike EQ where we just let everything happen organically, we are considering 'helper' mechanics that proactively help and even push people into the community. Trade is important, and I'm glad we're talking about it, but the big one for me is making friends in-game. People just don't do that anymore because 1. they don't need to and 2. many people who play MMOs now don't want to. Again, I'm fine with #2 -- they're not going to like Pantheon. But #1 has created a situation where people who DO enjoy socialzing and cooperative play don't know to look for it, don't know how or might be hestiant to reach out to other players, etc.
It's sad in a sense -- I feel compelled to put some systems in the game that probably wouldn't be necessary if MMOs hadn't altered course in the last 5-10 years and become a different animal. But, while we can all criticize and lament this reality, it's still a reality.
Aradune said:
This really touches on a bigger issue that we're still thinking very hard about: Vanilla EQ pretty much left everything up to the players.... want to find a group? Well, we had the /lfg flag, but not much more. Players were on their own to make friends, put groups together, to sell and buy items, etc. I guess the question that often comes up is: will players newer to MMOs or who didn't play the early more open and organic MMOs struggle too much without a little help? Also: do we create some sort of local UI that helps people buy and sell? Do we let people perhaps put an item on a merchant and sell it by consignment (e.g. someone can buy it while the owner is offline)? How about grouping? How about the community in general? Should we try to be a bit proactive and help people find groups and make friends, etc.?I know one could say, well, EQ didn't need any help -- the players came together and did most of this kind of stuff themselves. But, at the same time, this isn't 1999. Many people who will try Pantheon will not have that perspective and will be coming from games that do make a proactive approach in many areas... that provide an interface, or tools, to help players with transactions, grouping, etc.
I'm personally of the opinion that there has been so much hand-holding in recent games that we should try to be proactive, within reason of course. And I say that because I know some of you are probably worried about what I am saying and that we would take this too far and start implementing dungeon-finders and such. Yes, I agree, it could be taken too far, but we won't let that happen.
Clearly, he is stating that we can do an automated selling system without destroying the spirit of the game AND without implementing other "easycore" or "convenience" features that so many people here claim will immediately follow any kind of automated selling.
So, as Sintec said:
Sintec said:
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.
Thank you, nice job man :)
Beefcake said:Sintec said:
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.You are completely right. Lets take a look at what VR has in mind for Pantheon in their own words.
WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATUS?
Kilsin said:
That is pretty much it, we have settled on lots of these decisions over the last 3 years, we started these forums back in FEB 2014 and have been collecting info and taking feedback and suggestions ever since, to the point that we have already pretty much decided on most things and need to work on them some more and see them through to completion so we can test them. Which makes it hard but more reason why it was important to get in early on a game like this in development.We will still take feedback and suggestions and ask for specific feedback on certain things but for big mechanics like this, it has already been decided and we need to test it before we even consider changing anything.
Kilsin is pretty clear here that they already have a plan, it has been decided, and will be tested before considering any changes. Now, we have to determine what that plan is.
Kilsin said:
We will release more information on this system when we have done more work on it, for now, it is best to re-read these 24 pages and the streams/podcasts we have done where we have spoken about it.So, lets read through official posts so far.
Aradune said:
I think the having your own merchant NPC that would sell your wares is a good compromise fitting in-between one extreme (everything is face to face, player to player) and the other extreme, a full on auction house. I will say that I'm leaning towards this being what we'll do. Of course, this doesn't stop player to player trades/sales.And then some kind of list board, as you mentioned.
As for the EC Tunnel part of things, while I do think people will find areas once they learn the world, the routes, efficient ways to get from point a to point b, etc. and that there will be places that make sense to place your merchant minion NPC there, I don't necessarily agree that we'll get a repeat of EQ, e.g there will be only one of these. The way the world is being crafted, where the races are, the different continents, etc. I'm hoping we would see multiple spots.
If people are concerned that because of the merchants minions that no one will do player to player trades, 1. I don't necessarily agree but 2. if that turned out to be the case in alpha and beta, we could implement a tax or similar system to encourage face to face trades.
Anyway, that's where I pretty much sit at the moment.
AND, before that quote, there was another:
Aradune said:
The most important goals related to this entire discussion are: 1. we want a thriving player driven economy 2. we want people not only compelled but rewarded for traveling and exploring the world 3. we want to put desirable items in hard to reach places and reward those merchant types for taking the risk of not just obtaining that remote item, but bringing it to more civilized and populous areas and, assuming the demand is there, selling it for a profit. I've always been intrigued by that period where the Silk Road was used and something perhaps of little worth in China when brought all the way back to Europe was quite pricey.1. Is certainly doable
2. Definitely going to reward travel and exploration in several ways
3. This is easier said than done, and no I'm not trying to make a middle-ages silk road economic simulator. But I do think distance and risk should matter. And, therefore, people taking the time to travel and to risk more should be rewarded accordingly.
So those are the basic goals.
Now comes the stuff that like I said earlier, we're not going to set in stone until alpha or even early beta:
1. I don't think we'll require the player to sit around a popular trading spot spamming WTS: blahblah for hours. I don't think anyone really wants that, right?
2. So, if we aren't going to force people to do that then *some* mechanism/feature must be present... is it a full auction house? Is it just being able to set up an NPC and put your items on it, set your prices, and then leave him there while you continue to play the game? Is it somewhere in-between or something else? I honestly don't know yet. I just have a pretty strong feeling that some sort of 'helper' is going to be necessary.
3. The next big issue seems to be 'how do I find that special item I am looking for?' Again, we can go to one extreme and I think most people agree you shouldn't have to spend hours talking to every player or their merchant NPC, one by one, trying to find that item... especially if after all that effort that item isn't even currently for sale in the zone or region you're in.
4. So then comes the 'how easy to we make it to find that item'? and 'If I can search for an item, will it be local or global or something in-between?' Great questions. Again, not setting anything in stone, but my guess is that we will end up having a way to check if a region or zone has a merchant NPC, or a player, or an AH (if we even have them) has an item you are looking for currently for sale. Global searches but regional buying? Hrm... that's not sitting with me right, but will continue to think on it.
Then there's mailing people items.... perhaps... could be a good money sink.
Anyway those are my thoughts right now -- if I missed addressing something critical please let me know.
I do think many in our audience enjoy face-to-face trading and that many don't. We therefore need to accommodate both. My gut says right now that you can set up your own NPC merchant, give it the items you want to sell, set prices, and then leave him. Then it's not face-to-face, its player interacting with NPC, and I don't think anyone has issues there, yes? No?
Bottom line: we are listening, we understand there are people with conflicting desires but we are also confident that together (you guys and us devs) we can make a regional economy not only work and make for a fun part of the game, but also accommodate both sides of this current debate (or perhaps there's more than just two sides here -- it's been quite the thread).
Aradune said:
Well, first of all what I can say for certain is there will be no global auction house or bazarre. We want travel and remote regions to matter and for trade to take place in different areas and to see items fluctuate in value depending on how hard it was or wasn't to obtain and then bring to the area where you want to sell it. A player driven economy, as I've said many times, is paramount to Pantheon.Aradune said:
I generally like it when the players are driving things and places of commerce arise organically. That said, there is something to be said about a basic system that allows you to sell your items while offline, or that allows you to search for an item for sale in the local area you are in...This clearly indicates that there will be NO GLOBAL auction house or bazarre. However, the option to have local automated systems clearly remains open.
Also, they are clearly intending players to have options:
Face-to-face trading (for those that prefer that)
Some kind of automated systems (for those that prefer that)HOW DID WE GET HERE?
Lets take a look at a few more quotes.
Kilsin said:
We are most definitely creating a new game, this is nothing like an EQ or VG clone/sequel etc. and as much as that may disappoint some people, Pantheon is a new game, new IP, new ideas, based on its own lore, that involves some new and some familiar systems, mechanics and features that we thnk you will all enjoy a lot. :)Aradune said:
That said, I still feel (for clarification: I'm sharing my thoughts with you, not annoucing exactly what Pantheon will be like, because a lot of this is not going to be finally decided until beta) that some extra tools that did not exist in EQ to help people make friends, find groupmates, trade, etc. will be necessary to help proactively build community. This being 2016 and not 1999, and with the number of people who have experienced MMOs being easily 12+ million now, combined with many of them never having played a community-driven game, I think we will see a lot of players come into Pantheon and struggle a lot at first if we don't proactively help.Now I totally understand your concerns, and if we overdo this, we'll actually hurt the community and the game itself.
But remember, we are not only targeting old school MMO players with Pantheon -- we truly believe there are a LOT of players who never experienced the first generation of MMOs who will try out Pantheon and love it. My concern, though, is that when they try the game and aren't themselves used to a community-centric, social, cooperative game, that some/many might become frustrated early on and quit. I think we may need to ease them into this 'new' (I know, really it's old) style of MMO. So that's what we've been thinking about for sometime -- how can we do that, but not go too far and make Pantheon into something it was never meant to be. We have lots of ideas, but we need to try them out in beta. But it's a big enough issue for me that I've made these posts and am looking for our existing communities feedback as well (and you guys are providing that -- thank you).
To make sure I'm being clear: I don't expect everyone who tries the game who never experienced the first generation of MMOs to like Pantheon -- Pantheon has a specific target audience and we are NOT making a game that is all things for all people. A lot of people won't like Pantheon whether we leave all of this totally up to the community or if we put in some functionality to help build community. And, as I've stated before, I'm ok with that. But I also think that a lot of people who never experienced the first generation of MMOs will LOVE Pantheon once they've experienced the magic of a community-focused, social, cooperative MMO. We need those people, and so you do you guys. And so, unlike EQ where we just let everything happen organically, we are considering 'helper' mechanics that proactively help and even push people into the community. Trade is important, and I'm glad we're talking about it, but the big one for me is making friends in-game. People just don't do that anymore because 1. they don't need to and 2. many people who play MMOs now don't want to. Again, I'm fine with #2 -- they're not going to like Pantheon. But #1 has created a situation where people who DO enjoy socialzing and cooperative play don't know to look for it, don't know how or might be hestiant to reach out to other players, etc.
It's sad in a sense -- I feel compelled to put some systems in the game that probably wouldn't be necessary if MMOs hadn't altered course in the last 5-10 years and become a different animal. But, while we can all criticize and lament this reality, it's still a reality.
Aradune said:
This really touches on a bigger issue that we're still thinking very hard about: Vanilla EQ pretty much left everything up to the players.... want to find a group? Well, we had the /lfg flag, but not much more. Players were on their own to make friends, put groups together, to sell and buy items, etc. I guess the question that often comes up is: will players newer to MMOs or who didn't play the early more open and organic MMOs struggle too much without a little help? Also: do we create some sort of local UI that helps people buy and sell? Do we let people perhaps put an item on a merchant and sell it by consignment (e.g. someone can buy it while the owner is offline)? How about grouping? How about the community in general? Should we try to be a bit proactive and help people find groups and make friends, etc.?I know one could say, well, EQ didn't need any help -- the players came together and did most of this kind of stuff themselves. But, at the same time, this isn't 1999. Many people who will try Pantheon will not have that perspective and will be coming from games that do make a proactive approach in many areas... that provide an interface, or tools, to help players with transactions, grouping, etc.
I'm personally of the opinion that there has been so much hand-holding in recent games that we should try to be proactive, within reason of course. And I say that because I know some of you are probably worried about what I am saying and that we would take this too far and start implementing dungeon-finders and such. Yes, I agree, it could be taken too far, but we won't let that happen.
Clearly, he is stating that we can do an automated selling system without destroying the spirit of the game AND without implementing other "easycore" or "convenience" features that so many people here claim will immediately follow any kind of automated selling.
So, as Sintec said:
Sintec said:
Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos. They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.
I appreciate that you made this post.
I 100% believe that any form of AH will hurt Pantheon. And I stand by that. NPC assisted merchants/traders can be completely different than an AH though and many of us have been giving suggestions of ways to do NPC assisted merchants including myself. And by the sound of it, Brad's example of what they are thinking doesn't necessarily sound like an AH either. Time will tell, but I am happy with what he's said.
What's weird is that what I've been saying aligns with what Brad stated yet you said "I'm trying to control people and force them to do things my way" but this is old news. This discussion isn't 30 some pages long because half of us want to force the other half to use an AH while the other half is forcing us to not, although a good portion of it has been this, it's 30 pages because we've been discussing ideas of HOW to go about this. HOPEFULLY giving the devs a plethora of ideas to maybe pick apart to use if what they are thinking falls through.
But I am glad you are open to options. It's what we need. IMO we can't just go with an AH that resembles anything like what is found in most of the other MMOs out today. I don't feel they represent those of us who 'oppose the AH'. But we CAN find a way to do NPC assisted traders, and hopefully not an AH, that accomodates all of us.
...but I'd still love to see an economy completely ran by the players NPC free. Even if it is a pipe dream.
