As Retsof alluded to, in practice, regionalizing buying and selling isn't popular. Having seen it in several games, I'm no longer a fan.
In fact, I've never seen it work as intended. If someone has a current example of a game live and persistent today where it is working, I would enjoy the opportunity to try that game.
In the games where I've seen it tried, what Retsof said happens within days. People are finally hit with the realization that trying to find a single item is a full time job. That's one item for me. I want one item. Now I have to spend 8 hours in-game trying to find it, and likely I won't find it in that time, because it's not enough time to check all the locales, players, or vendors.
And god help me if I want a bunch of commodities. Might as well poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick, it would be more fun than searching through dozens, hundreds, or thousands of locales, players, or vendors.
So, I completely understand the desire to return to days of Faymart or EC Tunnel, but it's not practical. Even those places were impractical with 10 lines per second scrolling by.
I'm all for travel meaning something. Yet, I don't want to spend 8 hours a day searching and then another 8 hours traveling, in a social video game where I'm supposed to be entertained for my subscription dollars. I just want to buy my consumables, check for some crafted upgrades, and get back to adventuring with my friends.
As a result, I think a global search, at the very least, will be something that we need. Now, that doesn't mean I can buy the thing immediately. It doesn't mean I can travel to get the thing, instantly. It means I know where to buy it and who is selling it, at minimum.
Personally, if such an interface let me know where an item was for sale and how much it cost per item and who the seller was, I would be satisfied. I would then go there, find the escrow agent NPC, and buy the item the player put up for sale with that agent. Now that I know who put it up for sale, I might mail them or /tell them and ask if they can make me something similar, or have more stock, or can get more.
But without that first step of "where do I get this thing that I want", the economy stalls before it starts.
Optionally, I'm for features that drain gold for convenience. An example; A player in Syronai's Rest sees that an item is for sale in Avendyr's Seat. (map) That's really far away. But they really want the item. They see who is selling it, they can /tell that person and they meet in Skargol or Ru'lun and make the trade in person. But without that initial global search, that's not going to happen.
Similarly, in that same example, if they /tell the person and they're not online, make them pay TEN TIMES the items value to have it delivered by mail. Not enough? Twenty, thirty, fifty, or one hundred times it's value. If you want it now, you pay until it hurts. That's a gold sink.
If you personally haven't played a game without a global search (like the Bazaar), I strongly urge you to try a game that has no global AH, or severely localized AH's, or even local-banks-only. It is really just not fun. As features, these are not demographic attractants. I know, I know, everyone wants a niche game. Right up until the point where it's so niche no-one is paying or playing. :)
It will really depend on how itemization is done in this game. In EQ, I could go six or even eight levels before purchasing a new piece of equipment. in WoW, I bought a few new pieces of equipment each level. If I had to buy equipment constantly, the need to run all the way to EC and sit around conducting my search would be very annoying. However, if I am making the trip to EC once every 5-7 levels, then it could be fun. Who knows, I might find a way to get a bargain! Remember, going from level 30 to 35 in EQ1 could take you several weeks.
The EC tunnel worked in EQ1 and works very well in P1999. The reason: you dont go there every level. In P1999 I have a 31st level druid who still has four pieces of plain leather armor. I don't buy equipment constantly in that game.
As far as purchasing tradeskill materials goes, well thats a whole different issue. However, maybe you should try to find them yourself, and only purchase the truly rare pieces. I hope this game is not all about making sure everyone gets to have everything. I want to make choices, and from those choices I want to reap the rewards or suffer the consequences (or both). If I chose to live in on a lush plain, I will have to accept the fact that there are not many iron mines nearby. And if I live in the mountains, I will have to accept the fact there will not be much deep sea fishing around either.
The AH/bazarr are some of the most immersion killing things in these games. Besides, I never really got a great deal from the AH, but I got plenty by negotiating with real players.
It seems to me that if we are playing in a fantasy world, then the economy should be set up the same way. Have buildings in the cities or towns available for rent or purchase and those players who wish to sell can sell from these locations with retail prices. (set by the player) The shop would be open when it is manned by the player and closed the rest of the time. The player can determine their own hours and post them on the door. When they want to go adventuring, they close up shop and go, just like any good fantasy story. This also creates an opportunity for bartering concerning the prices between the shopkeepper and potential customer. (player interaction and community)
Those players who do not wish to run their own shop can sell their items to npc's or to shopkeepers when their shops are open. This would all enable a player economy but with some actual real (fantasy) world basis. It also puts a little risk/reward into the economy by asking the players to decide what they wish to spend their time doing. Even a fantasy hero can't be in 2 places at once. :)
After some thought on this I'm in favour of an auction house or some system where I can hire an npc to sell my wares. I do not want to have to stand around bellowing away about what i've got to sell, whether it's a regional or global style. I still want to be able to sell to the community I'm a part of without having to dedicate a good portion of my play time to standing around.
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
Aradune said:So then, I open this question to all of you: What is too far? Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players? Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.? If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
thanks in advance for your feedback and ideas,
-Brad
What is too far?
Complete automation of trading and delivery, especially without some form of margin to counter players from sitting at an auction house all day and getting flithly rich, especially by forming a monopoly on certain items/reagents etc.
Do you think we should leave all of this completely to the players?
No, as you have stated the players used to hand-holding will still need at least a finger or two, maybe not a whole hand.
Do you think we should have some functionality that assists players in doing item transactions, or finding people to group with, etc.?
Yes, this is why UI design has continued to improve over time, and it is best not to alienate paying subscribers by making the game 'too' difficult (relative depending on if you played original EQ).
If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
Acceptable (specific): a player has an interface where they can list their items for sale and preferred price, this interface will only be visible to other players in the same zone/region, kind of like an AOE trade window, this would be the equivalent of a player being able to shout to everyone in the area what they have available. If a player requests to purchase an item they can make an offer price and it is logged for the seller to view, if they accept the price they will have to meet the player to conduct the trade (preferably at a bank especially if it is a PvP server). If there is a mail system in the game it is acceptable to use this to deliver an item, however have the fee be relavent especially to the weight and size of the item, and have it take real time to get there - thus incentivising meeting face to face for an instant transaction.
Acceptable (broad): a localized auction house for each specific town where a player pays for each day an item sits in that auction house (shelf space isnt free right?). If you list an item in that town, that is where it sits and is sold to a buyer unless you pick the item up and move it to another town. This can help consolidate the trading player base to 1 town and the 'EC tunnel' effect can return. (Off topic idea: make items have 'factions' maybe an 'evil' item cannot be sold in a 'good' town auction house. Maybe the 'good' towns have a black market where shelf space is very costly.)
Taking it too far: Eliminating the 'time' factor... Allowing players to browse any item from any location, even on the same continent. Being able to purchase items and have them automatically delivered; even in the real world large e-commerce companies need people/robots to pick, pack, and deliver an item (which takes time). Convenience is nice, so keep it realistic - you can buy a product from a website but it will take time to get to you, make this true in the game as well. If Wonkavision becomes real anytime soon then maybe reconsider.
Personally, I'm not a fan of an auction house. I prefer interaction with other players to help build community etc. I used to play on Solusek Ro, and on there Greater Fay became the trading zone back in the early days (I know on most servers it was the commonlands/tunnel). I liked this method personally as you had to interact and travel around, meet with other players and haggle / bargin for items. The only way I might like an auction house to be implemented is if it's very restrictive. Certain expendable items could be sold there, but not regular equipment. EG: crafting supplies and those types of items. I'd rather haggle with players for permanent items such as weapons, armor etc.
Zarius.
I have just read all the 13 pages of this thread so would like to only add 3 points that have not been mentionned by anybody or very indirectly .
1) Automated/off line/global trading : a convenience tool
Without exception all those advocating for an AH style tool (that comes in N flavours - global, regional, NPC merchant etc etc) mention convenience and time sink . "I don't want to spend my time to ... ", "I hate travelling during hours ... " , "I won't sit spamming a macro for ... "
It is surprising that nobody mentionned that this problem has been solved in the EC tunnel mode already years ago . And it is obvious that it would necessarily be solved by an emergent player driven tool because convenience is a good that some players would buy so that sooner or later appear players who sell it .
The solution was called "deposit traders" . Indeed on most servers (mine on EQ, P1999, the current progression servers) there are players who take up your wares and sell them for a fee and for a minimum price that you impose . Or you passed an order for an item and imposed a maximum price . Their only limit is available space in their inventory so that something that would help is to provide for such players a special inventory allowing to store much more items than only the 8 back packs . These guys that I knew were always honest (because in this business honesty is what allows you to have a business) and apparently enjoyed to play a merchant in EC more than raiding dungeons .
Actually I liked to sell my wares personnaly and didn't use these deposit services often but if somebody wanted to never bother with selling/buying, he could do it without any AH like automated trading tools .
So if the Pantheon trade tool was the simplest emergent EC like, it is quite sure that it would propose convenience services (e.g 0 time sink) to players who don't want to trade themselves too .
2) Crafter services
It is known that about 30% of MMO players prefer crafting to adventuring . It is not a majority but it is a large enough fraction to dedicate development time to them . Typically a crafter has skills that 70 % of the players have not and a problem which is that by skilling up his crafting he produces megatons of goods, often of high value, which he has to sell for vile price to NPC merchants for lack of an adequate outlet .
I liked the idea of someone who proposed that when a crafter is working (f.ex in a forge), there appears a sign or a town herald advertizing for players coming by "Master smith for hire here ! Exceptionnal bargains ." I am sure that with such a tool, there would also appear an emergent game play where players (especially low level) would check their local forge or jewelry shop for an opportunity to get a cheap deal on valuable items .
I distinctly remember that when I was forging in the E.Freeport (the forge was outside of the building so that I was visible for the passers by) , lower level players often stopped and asked me to craft some banded or other pieces . For me it helped to finance my skilling up and lead ALWAYS to social interaction . Often I liked to RP by giving f.ex discounts for Gnomes (I was a Gnome) or good races etc . Quite a number of friends I made, I met them in front of the forge for the first time .
3) NPC mining
This is indirectly related to trading tools but NPC mining is an exceptionnaly enjoyable activity that disappeared in all "modern" MMOs . I know that there was a big fraction of EQ players (probably largely intersecting with the 30 % who prefer crafting) who liked and practiced NPC mining in a regular way . It was actually like going on a treasure hunt adventure and provided great rewards both financial and game play wise for those who practiced it .
I still remember how I found in pre Kunark era in 99 6 black sapphires on a halfling vendor in Rivervale where this threasure was in the middle of bat wings and beetle legs ;)
I hope that NPC mining will be possible in Pantheon .
I'm one of the players that was never any good at playing the auction house, and never really sold anything at too great a profit. Having said that, I never really bought anything too expensive from the AH either, primarily just crafting items or the sort. I was never rich, and my money piled up simply via adventuring (like all my gear - which was often outdated) and not really spending it on the AH.
+1 to Deadshade, I agree with all points you raised. I know it doesn't really do anything for the 'removing money from the game world' discussion, but I do remember these things in EQ and thought it was fantastic for my feeling of being in a dynamic game world, and my feeling of community within that world.
Personally, I would prefer not to have an auction house within the game.
Brain fart: Perhaps a city commerce guild has a message board where buyers and sellers could pay a fee and leave messages (that expire after x days). Then there could be a quest (like the 'postal' quests of EQ) that could deliver all these messages from Town A to Town B (players could opt to pay additional fee per town that the messages gets to). If a player was going to take this quest, traveling from A to B, they could shout to zone and others could rush to add messages to the board. The quest could reward faction with the commerce guild, or perhaps higher levels could pay a lower level to travel on their behalf. Maybe the porting classes decide to take this task on for the community. Or the commerce guild npc's travel between cities every few days and take the message with them. I like having game world reasons for tools / activities working the way they do.
NoobieDoo said:chaoticyeshua said:
One of my least favorite things in EQ was to sit and chat spam or /afk in the Bazaar. I understand that people like that as a part of their gameplay, but you all need to understand that for every one of you who do like it, there's another who hates it.
I will NEVER be able to understand this stance on the topic. I will never understand how some people will not like a certain part of a game (in this case genre) and just want it removed entirely because they don't want to waste their time doing it. Trading goods and bartering is fundamentally THE MOST social activity you can do in an MMORPG and the MMOs of today have simply removed it. Pantheon is supposed to be bringing back that 'social' feeling that has been lost in MMOs and bartering is a good area to start at.
With that being said, at least you mentioned alternative methods other than just simply using a global auction house. There are people who just want to automate bartering and I don't feel that is the answer. It is 2016, we don't have to force players to sit on their butts and spam the trade window all day but we also shouldn't force the players who DO want to sit on their butts, barter all day, and socialize to not be able to do it either.
There IS a middle ground that can be found here and with today's technology it shouldn't be hard to find. I really hope the devs can put the co-signment shop idea together and get it to run well. And if the final decision IS to use auction houses then I'd hope that they'd only function locally and not globally.
I can see your passion for this subject runs deep, and I do agree there needs to be a solution that addresses the wants and desires of both factions. Personally I prefer an AH. I would rather be out exploring instead of spamming chat trying to make some coin off the goods my explorations have garnered. I'm certain that many others feel the same. However, I also know that there are many players that relish the haggling of selling their goods on a more intimate basis. Why not have both options available? You could have a bazaar or board setup that allows a player to sell his goods himself at a price determined by the seller/buyer without any taxes in place. You could also have an AH in place where those so inclined can sell their goods at a min/max price set by the game itself (as is done in BDO) with a significant tax deducted from the proceeds of all sales. Both types of players get what they want without being forced in to a specific playstyle. Just my 2cp
Feyshtey said:pendragen said:"I don't mind bartering and negotiating for extremely expensive items, but having to seek out someone specially for common goods can be extremely taxing"
Vendor diving solves this. And it can provide an entire path to achievement for those willing to search for items on vendors and resell them at a profit. Some people absolutely love this.
I miss vendor diving, specially if there were items there that I had never seen before but could afford. hehehe One more thing ..if a person is spamming General chat with their wares instead of using the Auction channel ...if this is a constant practice...NO SALE and on my ignore. Use the channel assigned for your activity...please and thank you :P
Cana
Grymmlocke said:
I can see your passion for this subject runs deep, and I do agree there needs to be a solution that addresses the wants and desires of both factions. Personally I prefer an AH. I would rather be out exploring instead of spamming chat trying to make some coin off the goods my explorations have garnered. I'm certain that many others feel the same.
You don't need AH to sell your wares and spend no time on spamming chat .
AH has never been necessary to achieve that and if you visit a progression EQ server (using only the EC player driven trade) you will see that you can sell or buy wares without spending more than 1 minute for those who don't wish to spend time on it . And obviously those who want to sell/buy in person can do so too .
So the sollution already exists, has been existing for years, satisfies everybody and AH is irrelevant to the problem .
Grymmlocke said:NoobieDoo said:chaoticyeshua said:
I can see your passion for this subject runs deep, and I do agree there needs to be a solution that addresses the wants and desires of both factions. Personally I prefer an AH. I would rather be out exploring instead of spamming chat trying to make some coin off the goods my explorations have garnered. I'm certain that many others feel the same. However, I also know that there are many players that relish the haggling of selling their goods on a more intimate basis. Why not have both options available? You could have a bazaar or board setup that allows a player to sell his goods himself at a price determined by the seller/buyer without any taxes in place. You could also have an AH in place where those so inclined can sell their goods at a min/max price set by the game itself (as is done in BDO) with a significant tax deducted from the proceeds of all sales. Both types of players get what they want without being forced in to a specific playstyle. Just my 2cp
The ideas you gave are fine for most part. I'm just not the biggest fan of automated systems for selling items. The best way I can explain this is the world would feel more lively with a handful of people bartering items and trading their wares than it would with 50 players huddled around the AH NPC, like you would see in WoW. I guess it feels more organic. If there is to be automated systems for selling items then I'd prefer it to be a special feature such as player housing and being able to prop up an NPC on your grounds to sell your goods. But there have been a few good ideas thrown around in this discussion one being the cosignment shop where it is ran by players and if a player doesn't want to spend the time to sell their items them self they can go to the cosignment shop and leave their items there to be sold for a fee. Basically the same idea as what you mentioned but instead of an AH, actual players would sell the ppl's items.
If there is a global AH it's definitely not a deal breaker for me since VG had one and VG is my favorite MMO. But I would just love to see a very hand's off approach to PRotF and have the community handle as much as they can on their own before the game gives a hand. I think this will go a long way in bridging that gap between VG and EQ. VG was definitely a social MMO but more along the lines of being just a very friendly grouping MMO. EQ was definitely VERY social where players would sit around and just teach each other languages, you didn't find anything like that in VG nor really any other modern MMO and though I really don't think teaching each other languages is really something I need in PRotF I'd really just like to see some of that social bonding brought back to the fold.
There's been so much discussion about this, perhaps it's time to set up a poll for this topic! If I haven't overlooked any, the options should be:
1) No AH (like early EQ): EC tunnel trading style, WTS/WTB chat spam, ...
2) Regional WTS/WTB boards: Set up your message, buyers/sellers will have to contact you. No automated selling/buying via these boards!
3) Global WTS/WTB boards: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional.
4) Local NPC merchant / stall: Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can not be searched from somewhere else, players will have to come to the merchant to search and buy.
5) Regional NPC merchant / stall (with search function and ability to buy): Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can be searched and bought regionally. Auction house light!
6) Global NPC merchant / stall: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional. Full aution house!
My favorite is 2 (as I've said before). Question about 5 and 6: Should bought items just magically appear in your inventory? Or should they be sent to you via mail (or something similar)?
NoobieDoo said:Grymmlocke said:NoobieDoo said:chaoticyeshua said:
The ideas you gave are fine for most part. I'm just not the biggest fan of automated systems for selling items. The best way I can explain this is the world would feel more lively with a handful of people bartering items and trading their wares than it would with 50 players huddled around the AH NPC, like you would see in WoW. I guess it feels more organic. If there is to be automated systems for selling items then I'd prefer it to be a special feature such as player housing and being able to prop up an NPC on your grounds to sell your goods. But there have been a few good ideas thrown around in this discussion one being the cosignment shop where it is ran by players and if a player doesn't want to spend the time to sell their items them self they can go to the cosignment shop and leave their items there to be sold for a fee. Basically the same idea as what you mentioned but instead of an AH, actual players would sell the ppl's items.
If there is a global AH it's definitely not a deal breaker for me since VG had one and VG is my favorite MMO. But I would just love to see a very hand's off approach to PRotF and have the community handle as much as they can on their own before the game gives a hand. I think this will go a long way in bridging that gap between VG and EQ. VG was definitely a social MMO but more along the lines of being just a very friendly grouping MMO. EQ was definitely VERY social where players would sit around and just teach each other languages, you didn't find anything like that in VG nor really any other modern MMO and though I really don't think teaching each other languages is really something I need in PRotF I'd really just like to see some of that social bonding brought back to the fold.I too don't see this as a deal breaker. I'll play the game the devs release whichever route they take. I would be happy with any combination of the several very good proposals put forth in this thread. But, just to reiterate, I would very much like to have an option to sell my goods without having to spend an inordinate amount of time to do so. I prefer to spend my time exploring the world, and seeing what mischief I can get myself into. Whether that method is an AH, NPC vendors I can place in my housing , a consignment system or any combination of any of the great ideas put forth by others here, I would just like to have options that allow players to play the way they want to play.
As for your comments on the social aspects of the game, I agree wholeheartedly. I really miss the social bonding that was in EQ1, but I have confidence that VR are making a game that will bring that back in a big way. Again, just my 2cp.
Edit typos.
This post was edited by Grymmlocke at September 12, 2016 4:37 AM PDT
Reading through the thread (though not all of it) some players really enjoy the personnal experience of face-to-face sales, while others would just like to throw their goods on the market between adventures and forget about them.
What about if you right-click on a player and select Entrust Goods. A window would then appear, visible to both players, where you have to set up and agree on a trust contract:
When the time limit expires, all the unsold items are returned to the entruster. If something sold, the entruster gets the selling price he set and the merchant player gets any profit margin above that. You can easily create a money sink to control the economy by making players pay for a Trust Contract consummable item, equivalent to auction house fees in other games.
You could even create a Merchant profession that skills up as you make successful sales and gives you advantages (a fixed number of chat shouts; increase in maximum simultaneous Trusts you hold; each sale creates a little extra money from thin air for the merchant and the entruster, making pro merchants sought after). Of course it would have to be carefully monitored to avoid economic problems, but I think there's something there.
For buying, you could right-click on a merchant player and select Give Purchase Order, where you agree on a buying contract:
You have to give your merchant the required money to cover your asking prices before letting him go. If the merchant finds a deal below his client's asking price, he keeps the difference for himself. Good merchants will know where to find the goods cheap... and bad ones won't get a good margin! Merchants should look at the trust contract carefully and decide if they see an opportunity to make money or not.
Sarim said:There's been so much discussion about this, perhaps it's time to set up a poll for this topic! If I haven't overlooked any, the options should be:
1) No AH (like early EQ): EC tunnel trading style, WTS/WTB chat spam, ...
2) Regional WTS/WTB boards: Set up your message, buyers/sellers will have to contact you. No automated selling/buying via these boards!
3) Global WTS/WTB boards: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional.
4) Local NPC merchant / stall: Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can not be searched from somewhere else, players will have to come to the merchant to search and buy.
5) Regional NPC merchant / stall (with search function and ability to buy): Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can be searched and bought regionally. Auction house light!
6) Global NPC merchant / stall: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional. Full aution house!
My favorite is 2 (as I've said before). Question about 5 and 6: Should bought items just magically appear in your inventory? Or should they be sent to you via mail (or something similar)?
Number 3 for sure. You'd probably still have a 'meeting area' that would also be used for live auctions to sell things quickly. The main thing I want is actual player to player selling/trading. It just feels right.
With the global option there should be a regional sort, so you don't have to run too far.
jerus said:Sarim said:There's been so much discussion about this, perhaps it's time to set up a poll for this topic! If I haven't overlooked any, the options should be:
1) No AH (like early EQ): EC tunnel trading style, WTS/WTB chat spam, ...
2) Regional WTS/WTB boards: Set up your message, buyers/sellers will have to contact you. No automated selling/buying via these boards!
3) Global WTS/WTB boards: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional.
4) Local NPC merchant / stall: Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can not be searched from somewhere else, players will have to come to the merchant to search and buy.
5) Regional NPC merchant / stall (with search function and ability to buy): Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can be searched and bought regionally. Auction house light!
6) Global NPC merchant / stall: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional. Full aution house!
My favorite is 2 (as I've said before). Question about 5 and 6: Should bought items just magically appear in your inventory? Or should they be sent to you via mail (or something similar)?
Number 3 for sure. You'd probably still have a 'meeting area' that would also be used for live auctions to sell things quickly. The main thing I want is actual player to player selling/trading. It just feels right.
With the global option there should be a regional sort, so you don't have to run too far.
+1
One other thing to mention and it likely was mentioned but 13 pages is a lot to do more than skim. In EQ if you sold to a merchant you could buy back that item if it wasn't magic IIRC (or lore? I don't remember the exact rules). This is good for tradeskill materials, if I'm out hunting I might opt to just quickly sell the cheap mats to a NPC merchant, other players can go merchant diving around areas to collect those materials and either resell at a profit for some, or just get them when no one is selling them at the moment. Obviously you don't want rare items or no-drop (no trade, I really hope they use the no-drop title just out of nostalgia though) being in this system but your standard items it was a great thing IMO.
piellar said:You could even create a Merchant profession that skills up as you make successful sales and gives you advantages (a fixed number of chat shouts; increase in maximum simultaneous Trusts you hold; each sale creates a little extra money from thin air for the merchant and the entruster, making pro merchants sought after). Of course it would have to be carefully monitored to avoid economic problems, but I think there's something there.
Slight derail, but I have to speculate, that this could see player naming conventions like "Amazon" "Finger Hut" Costco" "Wallmart". What a bummer that would be.
I think a PC Merchant class would be really neat though. And I prefer regional buy/trade over server wide solutions tbh.
toop said:If so, what would be acceptable, and what would be taking it too far?
Acceptable (specific): a player has an interface where they can list their items for sale and preferred price, this interface will only be visible to other players in the same zone/region, kind of like an AOE trade window, this would be the equivalent of a player being able to shout to everyone in the area what they have available. If a player requests to purchase an item they can make an offer price and it is logged for the seller to view, if they accept the price they will have to meet the player to conduct the trade (preferably at a bank especially if it is a PvP server). If there is a mail system in the game it is acceptable to use this to deliver an item, however have the fee be relavent especially to the weight and size of the item, and have it take real time to get there - thus incentivising meeting face to face for an instant transaction.
Acceptable (broad): a localized auction house for each specific town where a player pays for each day an item sits in that auction house (shelf space isnt free right?). If you list an item in that town, that is where it sits and is sold to a buyer unless you pick the item up and move it to another town. This can help consolidate the trading player base to 1 town and the 'EC tunnel' effect can return. (Off topic idea: make items have 'factions' maybe an 'evil' item cannot be sold in a 'good' town auction house. Maybe the 'good' towns have a black market where shelf space is very costly.)
Taking it too far: Eliminating the 'time' factor... Allowing players to browse any item from any location, even on the same continent. Being able to purchase items and have them automatically delivered; even in the real world large e-commerce companies need people/robots to pick, pack, and deliver an item (which takes time). Convenience is nice, so keep it realistic - you can buy a product from a website but it will take time to get to you, make this true in the game as well. If Wonkavision becomes real anytime soon then maybe reconsider.
I like this idea if no AH is implemented. You can see who has what for sale and if you want something then you can interact with the player and go and buy it. Although it can make it harder for people in different time zones to the main players like myself. I for one prefer an AH type mechanic. I hated trying to find things in EQ1 when hardly anyone was online due to it being about 3am in ths US when you get home from work. The Bazaar made all the difference to my playing enjoyment. When that came along things that cost 1000pp came down to 350pp as people had the chance to clear out their junk (to them) from their bank and I got the change to get some new items.
jerus said:Sarim said:There's been so much discussion about this, perhaps it's time to set up a poll for this topic! If I haven't overlooked any, the options should be:
1) No AH (like early EQ): EC tunnel trading style, WTS/WTB chat spam, ...
2) Regional WTS/WTB boards: Set up your message, buyers/sellers will have to contact you. No automated selling/buying via these boards!
3) Global WTS/WTB boards: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional.
4) Local NPC merchant / stall: Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can not be searched from somewhere else, players will have to come to the merchant to search and buy.
5) Regional NPC merchant / stall (with search function and ability to buy): Set up your wares for others to buy. Wares can be searched and bought regionally. Auction house light!
6) Global NPC merchant / stall: Same as above, only serverwide instead of regional. Full aution house!
My favorite is 2 (as I've said before). Question about 5 and 6: Should bought items just magically appear in your inventory? Or should they be sent to you via mail (or something similar)?
Number 3 for sure. You'd probably still have a 'meeting area' that would also be used for live auctions to sell things quickly. The main thing I want is actual player to player selling/trading. It just feels right.
With the global option there should be a regional sort, so you don't have to run too far.
Does a regional AH/WTS Boards really work? Most games I have played that started out that way has abandoned them all for global ones.
EQ2 had regional ones for each side/city and a Black Market one
WOW had the same as EQ2 one for each side and the combined one with a higher fee at Booty Bay and Tanaris (had to look that up been so long)
RIFT had one for each faction
Vanguard I think were regional
All of them ended up as Global ones in the end. I think that was done due to declining player numbers.
Boulda said: ... Does a regional AH/WTS Boards really work? Most games I have played that started out that way has abandoned them all for global ones.EQ2 had regional ones for each side/city and a Black Market one
WOW had the same as EQ2 one for each side and the combined one with a higher fee at Booty Bay and Tanaris (had to look that up been so long)
RIFT had one for each faction
Vanguard I think were regional
All of them ended up as Global ones in the end. I think that was done due to declining player numbers.
It's because it's one of those things that sounds interesting in theory, but does not work in practice.
TIme-wise, when a player has to check 10/100/1000+ vendors or locations just to find something might be for sale, and/or how much it might be, and/or where it might be for sale? That's not gonna fly. All many/most/some players want to do is group up and adventure. Placing frustrating tedious timesinks in their way to the entertainment they're paying for is not attractive nor innovative. It just narrows your target demographic unnecessarily.
A global search can tell buyers where things are, who is selling them, and how much they are. Beyond that, travel can remain meaningful. If you don't want to leave your PC running 24x7 (Bazaar) or stand in EC tunnel 24x7 (/auction buy my stuff!) ? You need a regional escrow agent NPC. That's it.
There are huge chasms of gray between the black of an instant buy/sell global auction house and the white of you must search 1000 player vendors per day to find bat wings. ;)
This whole mentality that convenience features are bad really worries me. There's a reason certain games (to remain unnamed) failed and it's because of a misguided view on what players really wanted based on the nostalgia of yore. EQ was a great game but it was also a terribly tedious game based on todays standards and I for one don't miss much of it.
The reason there was no auction house in EQ wasn't really (imo but Brad can point out if I'm wrong) was not because it was decided to not have one... it was because it built in to the game and I expect the game systems wouldn't support such a beast.
The idea that the auction house in WoW, for example, detracted from the community is also ludicrous. WoW has and had a thriving community. If anything the auction house brought people together MUCH more than it drove them away. Tons of people congrigated in Ironforge near the AH and the bank. They were magnets for players. I had a LOT more fun and felt a much greater level of community in Ironforge than I ever did in EC. I'm not saying that EC was bad but I'm saying it wasn't everything everyone makes it out to be. Knowing who was selling an item also helped and helped connect players.
With the larger number of people playing MMOs now, and the hope that Pantheon will have a great following, it's simply impractical to support a thriving market without using tools to facilitate that market. Expecting players to spend a significant amount of time just trying to sell goods is unrealistic and detracts from being able to actually play the game. I certainly don't have the time to spend just standing around trying to sell my extra PGT.
I hope we see tools to facilitate a thriving market in Pantheon. If nothing else there should be market listings similar to SWG that guided players to a location where the goods are for sale, such as a players storefront.
Santiago said:This whole mentality that convenience features are bad really worries me. There's a reason certain games (to remain unnamed) failed and it's because of a misguided view on what players really wanted based on the nostalgia of yore. EQ was a great game but it was also a terribly tedious game based on todays standards and I for one don't miss much of it.
I agree, Santiago. I think a huge mistake would be to forgo many convenience features found in newer games simply for the sake of "nostalgia." Many systems in old MMOs were wonderful and should be brought back to reignite the spirit of what was. On the other side of that, many of those systems or features (or lack thereof) were just objectively bad. Success is a process based upon looking at both what worked and what could be improved upon, and any position that neglects to learn from others (and in this case, other games) is just a silly position to make based upon sentimental value.
Regarding the concept of auction houses, I believe there is a compromise to be found that mitigates against the flaws of an auction house while improving upon the utter lack of trading systems. Previously mentioned was the idea of a global WTB/WTS notification board where you could list what you were willing to buy and what you were willing to sell. I think this could be a fair compromise worth exploring.
I think you all are forgetting a core aspect of the game when you argue about auction houses. Much like early EQ, this looks to be a game where 90% of your desirable gear is going to come from hunting for it. Not from saving money and buying it. Not from crafting it. From hunting and exploring. This was true in the early days of EQ. Even droppable stuff was so relatively rare that simply finding someone who wanted to sell it was a task. Comparative pricing was a solution in search of a problem!
We may be bartering over tradeskill components and leather armor. We won't be trading a sword we just scored from some Goblin King. Certainly ten or twenty of us won't or the premise will have already failed. Auction houses make sense in WoW and the games that followed because items dropped like candy. One of the core tenents of this game is not having it be a candy store.
It won't be about what price you want to sell something at, but rather whether it is more valuable to hold on to it or to sell it at all.
