My biggest issue with EQ raid loot, was that my schedule didn't permit me to attend EVERY raid, and inveritably, the drops that were usable by me dropped on nights I wasn't available. I seriously thought I was cursed for months.
I don't mind the ultra-rare dropped loot, but a system that also "loot components" drop, that anyone can collect and turn in. (Do not read this as everyone gets a component every raid). A system where anyone can spend their DKP or win via the RNG a component that is useful. Rather than "Oh damn another wizard drop."
I hope I explained that OK.
That awesome loot drop is a magical feeling, but an additional option would be nice as well. Since most raid mobs drop more than one item, it is possible that the drop components, and maybe 1 ultra-rare item.
I'm of two minds about instancing raid bosses. If they're instanced, many more guilds will kill them, many more items will enter the game per month. This will have positive and negative effect. Also keep in mind that even if these items are not tradeable, the fact that there is more of them will lessen the need for crafted and other tradeable items, thus impacting the economy.
Perhaps it would work if you make the raid bosses hard. Which they should be anyway. But not everyone should have such items - guilds that are disorganized, sloppy, where people watch TV while on a raid, have low attendance, different (and inexperienced) people every time, should not be able to kill them. Otherwise, if everyone is special, no one will be special.
But if you don't instance them, you need a LOT of raid content, like in EQ 1. A single raid zone, like in VG, won't be enough. (that zone had to be instanced, or it would have been totally useless if a single guild can clear all the raid content on the server)
If only 2-3 guilds on the server can do it, and others can't even if they're 90% as good, just can't be online all the time, that's wrong as well.
My favorite would be a lot of raid content, and all of it non instanced, and hard. If you can't make a ton of it, then instance it.
I don't have much intention of being at the forefront of raiding so maybe my opinion on how raids work doesn't count. I dunno.
All I typically see are people saying OH NOES WE CANNOT HAVE RAIDS LIKE VANILLA EQ EVERYONE WILL CAMP EVERYTHING AND NO ONE WILL HAVE ANYTHING. IMO no one has just said F it and done vanilla EQ raiding again in another game. And what I mean is, long respawn timed, non-instanced, low drop rate, semi-challenging encounters. If one guild can dominate all of them and that causes massive QQ who cares.
Tokens, any system where everyone gets something, instancing, mob "locking", etc, all detract from the "EQ" experience. Almost no game has this right now and almost no game can hold people's attention long term. What game since WoW has held on to a large number of raiders for more than a few months here and there? WoW has now taken the "everyone can raid" mentallity to the extreme and is hemorrhaging players like mad. Why not just do it EQ style and if it doesn't work out then worry about it? I can tell you from my MMO experience handing out loot only makes people stick around in the short term. The easier it is to get fully geared, the shorter your expansion cycle better be or people are not going to stick around.
It's my feeling that people will complain about difficulty like mad and yet still stick around for the best stuff. If they can get it with minimal work they will get it and bail. *shrug*
jezebel said:
I don't have much intention of being at the forefront of raiding so maybe my opinion on how raids work doesn't count. I dunno.
All I typically see are people saying OH NOES WE CANNOT HAVE RAIDS LIKE VANILLA EQ EVERYONE WILL CAMP EVERYTHING AND NO ONE WILL HAVE ANYTHING. IMO no one has just said F it and done vanilla EQ raiding again in another game. And what I mean is, long respawn timed, non-instanced, low drop rate, semi-challenging encounters. If one guild can dominate all of them and that causes massive QQ who cares.
I'm confused by your post. Vanilla WOW had instanced raids and dungeons -- Molten Core, LBRS, Blackwing Lair, Naxxramas. There were a few outdoor bosses --- Azuregos and the demon boss guy by the Dark Portal. Other than those two mobs, Vanilla WOW had no real competition for raid monsters (or dungeon monsters for that matter) and look at how successful it was.
EQ's beauty didn't really shine from the raid bosses --- It came from the difficulty of the game leveling to 50. The dangerous environment and mysterious area's to explore. The dungeons you had to go into (The Hole, City of Mist) to get those rare items or quest pieces. Raid bosses really only became "wanted" by the majority of the games players due to epic quests being added. Most people could get by without, say, a Cloak of Flames or Rune Branded Girdle. Those items didnt give you magical powers to solo --- They were just a significant upgrade.
I am all for raids being challenging. However, I wouldn't call being denied access to these raids a challenge. It is frustrating --- Especially if there's no other alternative.
Responding to your last sentance, it's fine if one guild dominates contested raid bosses. That's fine --- But only if there are alternatives. The same loot? No, of course not. The same boss scripting? No, of course not. We want players to "want" those contested mobs or they lose all value. However, you don't want your playerbase stuck not experiencing any type of raiding when they want to. People won't stick around... because let's face it.. only 1 guild/group can finish first. This is actually quite an issue on the progression servers and Project 1999. On the front page of the TPL Servers for EQ1, you can see people complaining about wanting to kill raid targets, but they are being monopolized. How is this good for these servers?
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/instance-raids-please.227088/
jezebel said:
Tokens, any system where everyone gets something, instancing, mob "locking", etc, all detract from the "EQ" experience. Almost no game has this right now and almost no game can hold people's attention long term. What game since WoW has held on to a large number of raiders for more than a few months here and there? WoW has now taken the "everyone can raid" mentallity to the extreme and is hemorrhaging players like mad. Why not just do it EQ style and if it doesn't work out then worry about it? I can tell you from my MMO experience handing out loot only makes people stick around in the short term. The easier it is to get fully geared, the shorter your expansion cycle better be or people are not going to stick around.
It's my feeling that people will complain about difficulty like mad and yet still stick around for the best stuff. If they can get it with minimal work they will get it and bail. *shrug*
I agree that if people can get something with minimal effort, they will lean towards that, trivialize the game, and end up disinterested in the long run. I think everyone should be challenged in a game. However, WOW had "everyone can raid" from the start with instanced raids. But only if they are good enough to complete it (challenge).
Most MMO's do not hold players for very long because they have no experience penalty. No experience penalty for death quickens the leveling experience tremendously. No experience penalty also makes people try anything without any real reprocussions. During my WOW days, death meant absolutely nothing because repairs didn't cost anything substantial and there were no experience penalties. Was I afraid of the environment? No, not really. What's the worst that could happen? EverQuest 1's world was fearful --- If something nasty got me, I had to get back to where I was without any gear (a challenge) and face the monsters that killed me again (usually avoiding them somehow).
As far as a token system, I think I covered that in my previous post.
Aethor said:
I'm of two minds about instancing raid bosses. If they're instanced, many more guilds will kill them, many more items will enter the game per month. This will have positive and negative effect. Also keep in mind that even if these items are not tradeable, the fact that there is more of them will lessen the need for crafted and other tradeable items, thus impacting the economy.
This can all be controlled. A few examples:
1. The obvious... a hard time lock such as once a week.
2. A specific number of times you can engage the boss (3 times before the dragon flies off)
3. A pre-requisite of sorts to enter an instance. This can be a quest to spawn a contested boss in a region. It can also be a key (consumable key or permanent key). Both of these can require crafted items.
4. Limit the drop rates of wearable equipment and crafting materials. This can be adjusted as needed.
Aethor said:
Perhaps it would work if you make the raid bosses hard. Which they should be anyway. But not everyone should have such items - guilds that are disorganized, sloppy, where people watch TV while on a raid, have low attendance, different (and inexperienced) people every time, should not be able to kill them. Otherwise, if everyone is special, no one will be special.
But if you don't instance them, you need a LOT of raid content, like in EQ 1. A single raid zone, like in VG, won't be enough. (that zone had to be instanced, or it would have been totally useless if a single guild can clear all the raid content on the server)
If only 2-3 guilds on the server can do it, and others can't even if they're 90% as good, just can't be online all the time, that's wrong as well.
My favorite would be a lot of raid content, and all of it non instanced, and hard. If you can't make a ton of it, then instance it.
The issue with non-instanced content is that it's difficult to make it challenging when a boss can be engaged by an unlimited amount of people... How do you balance this raid boss? These outdoor contested raid bosses should just be tests of speed and quick organization. Leave the instanced bosses to provide the challenge of executing the fight properly.
I don't believe in DKP. My philosophy is to first keep your raid force lean, no more than one extra group above raid cap. Determine your main raid members at each role. Your main tank, your main healer(s), your main dps, etc. Gear up your main tank first, no matter what. Then any unique class defining item goes to your main players at each role. So if the healer's cloak drops off of Zaraax then it goes to your main healer first. To determine these unique items you form a loot council consisting of your class leads and/or guild leaders.
If the item is not an upgrade for your main tank and it is not a unique class defining item then anyone can roll on the item. Your loot council keeps a list of everyone and their looted items and if you want an item you roll on it and if you win it your name goes to the bottom of the list and you must wait until everyone else able to roll has looted something before you roll again.
I lead our guild which consisted of half hardcore players and half or more casual players to top 5 on our server with this system. With DKP our main tank would have slowly gotten gear and would have slowed our progress.
Silvanoshi said:
EQ's beauty didn't really shine from the raid bosses --- It came from the difficulty of the game leveling to 50. The dangerous environment and mysterious area's to explore.
I agree, the beauty of EQ was the difficulty. The fact that anything you acquired took effort and strategy. You couldn't just run in to an dungeon without a plan and kill stuff (Assuming it was proper level for you character), and risk dying with no worry, only to respawn, run in and try again.
EQ punished you for your mistakes, which made the rewards that much better. It added excitement when things got out of control, the threat of getting killed motivated you to work as a team. That feeling when you won an encounter that went awry, with just a sliver of life left within the group, was exhilerting.
Silvanoshi said:
I'm confused by your post. Vanilla WOW had instanced raids and dungeons -- Molten Core, LBRS, Blackwing Lair, Naxxramas. There were a few outdoor bosses --- Azuregos and the demon boss guy by the Dark Portal. Other than those two mobs, Vanilla WOW had no real competition for raid monsters (or dungeon monsters for that matter) and look at how successful it was.
EQ's beauty didn't really shine from the raid bosses --- It came from the difficulty of the game leveling to 50. The dangerous environment and mysterious area's to explore. The dungeons you had to go into (The Hole, City of Mist) to get those rare items or quest pieces. Raid bosses really only became "wanted" by the majority of the games players due to epic quests being added. Most people could get by without, say, a Cloak of Flames or Rune Branded Girdle. Those items didnt give you magical powers to solo --- They were just a significant upgrade.
I am all for raids being challenging. However, I wouldn't call being denied access to these raids a challenge. It is frustrating --- Especially if there's no other alternative.
Responding to your last sentance, it's fine if one guild dominates contested raid bosses. That's fine --- But only if there are alternatives. The same loot? No, of course not. The same boss scripting? No, of course not. We want players to "want" those contested mobs or they lose all value. However, you don't want your playerbase stuck not experiencing any type of raiding when they want to. People won't stick around... because let's face it.. only 1 guild/group can finish first. This is actually quite an issue on the progression servers and Project 1999. On the front page of the TPL Servers for EQ1, you can see people complaining about wanting to kill raid targets, but they are being monopolized. How is this good for these servers?
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/instance-raids-please.227088/
I agree that if people can get something with minimal effort, they will lean towards that, trivialize the game, and end up disinterested in the long run. I think everyone should be challenged in a game. However, WOW had "everyone can raid" from the start with instanced raids. But only if they are good enough to complete it (challenge).
Most MMO's do not hold players for very long because they have no experience penalty. No experience penalty for death quickens the leveling experience tremendously. No experience penalty also makes people try anything without any real reprocussions. During my WOW days, death meant absolutely nothing because repairs didn't cost anything substantial and there were no experience penalties. Was I afraid of the environment? No, not really. What's the worst that could happen? EverQuest 1's world was fearful --- If something nasty got me, I had to get back to where I was without any gear (a challenge) and face the monsters that killed me again (usually avoiding them somehow).
As far as a token system, I think I covered that in my previous post.
The issue with non-instanced content is that it's difficult to make it challenging when a boss can be engaged by an unlimited amount of people... How do you balance this raid boss? These outdoor contested raid bosses should just be tests of speed and quick organization. Leave the instanced bosses to provide the challenge of executing the fight properly.
My point was not that WoW wasn't popular. My point was that EQ was popular and no one else has done it like EQ did it in years. The claim by everyone is that instances/mob locks/easier to get raid loot/whatever are required or everyone will leave. Yet all the games have instancing or boss locks or something that makes it so everyone gets to try and all of them are losing people like mad as soon as people hit end game. Why?
I don't think people played EQ for so long over something as trivial as exp loss. It wouldn't even matter at raiding level as no one cares if they die at 50/60/65/70/whatever the cap is at that expansion and to me it is only a minor annoyance when levelling up. I think EXP loss played SOME role but it was a whole conglomeration of things that made it such an addictive game.
As for how to make the bosses balanced around unlimited numbers. Collison detection so only so many can hit it at once. AEs that intensify damage the more people they hit. Automatic difficulty scaling. I dunno, there are lots of ways to make them harder with more people than they would be with less.
I normally dislike currencies, patterns, or craftable drops as raid loot. I killed the dragon and got a sewing pattern? WTF kind of loot is that? Yes, it can be turned in for something awesome, but still... the "dragon" should be sitting on LOOT. Raw, unfettered loot. At the same time, I hate seeing loot rot because no one needs it or no one can use it. Neither is ideal, but I wont pretend to have the answers.
I do know one thing... I do not want forced crafting. I generally dislike crafting, and would rather spend my time adventuring. If a raid loot solution requires me to take up crafting, I'll be saddened. Less so if I can hire a crafter to finish the item for me.
jezebel said:
I don't think people played EQ for so long over something as trivial as exp loss. It wouldn't even matter at raiding level as no one cares if they die at 50/60/65/70/whatever the cap is at that expansion and to me it is only a minor annoyance when levelling up. I think EXP loss played SOME role but it was a whole conglomeration of things that made it such an addictive game.
You obviously were not in a raiding guild where you where expected to raid at least 5 nights a week, many guilds had 24/7 batphones (literally calling each other, and each person had two people they had to call to get people on for a spawn pop pre GoD). When you would often times wipe 10-12 times on a raid.
The amount of XP you got during raids was not enough to cover this, forcing many people to grind out XP just to stay 50, 60, 65 etc. At least early on you could drop a level and still do pretty good raiding, but after abotu luclin, if you lsot a level during raid you better hope some one could get a good rez on you. As the puller I had to stay 90%+ into max level almsot every raid night or risk deleveling even after getting rezzes.
To me that is fun though, others not so much...
jezebel said:
My point was not that WoW wasn't popular. My point was that EQ was popular and no one else has done it like EQ did it in years. The claim by everyone is that instances/mob locks/easier to get raid loot/whatever are required or everyone will leave. Yet all the games have instancing or boss locks or something that makes it so everyone gets to try and all of them are losing people like mad as soon as people hit end game. Why?
The reason why people leave en masse is due to a few things. Lack of Difficulty. Lack of Content at Max Level. Quick Leveling. No Goal.
If leveling and raiding aren't difficult --- People will steamroll through content at lightning speed and then there's a lack of content.
If there's a lack of content, players wont wait (very long) for new content with other games on the horizon all the time.
If there's quick leveling, they reach all the content that much quicker. (Exp loss on death helps prolong this)
Goals... This can be different depending on the player. A list of some goals people typically have:
1) Reach Max Level (Character level, crafts, ect)
2) Raid, beat the best boss, get the best loot.
3) Enjoy the story and explore the world.
4) Collections, such as mini pets.
5) PvP
jezebel said:
I don't think people played EQ for so long over something as trivial as exp loss. It wouldn't even matter at raiding level as no one cares if they die at 50/60/65/70/whatever the cap is at that expansion and to me it is only a minor annoyance when levelling up. I think EXP loss played SOME role but it was a whole conglomeration of things that made it such an addictive game.
As for how to make the bosses balanced around unlimited numbers. Collison detection so only so many can hit it at once. AEs that intensify damage the more people they hit. Automatic difficulty scaling. I dunno, there are lots of ways to make them harder with more people than they would be with less.
I agree --- Exp loss was one of many contributions. The difficulty, the danger, the exploration, the crafting and clicky collectibles... All of these (content) played a role and were all gated behind something. You had to find a group (4-5 other people is a gate of sorts)... then perhaps a key to enter (makes finding that said group more difficult) ... the travelling (shorter travel time if you had a druid/wizard) ... and then the recovery times and respawn times as well.
As far as damage scaling, it's usually not good in actual play because your healers cant keep up with the increased damage output or the sheer speed of the damage output of those spells vs casting speed of healers. It'll come down to that there's so much damage that people are just getting one shotted rapidly.
As long as raid loot doesn't allow players to trivialize group content or lock out access to content by overpowering anyone who challenges them, I'll be fine with whatever system they design.
Vorthanion said:As long as raid loot doesn't allow players to trivialize group content or lock out access to content by overpowering anyone who challenges them, I'll be fine with whatever system they design.
If a dungeon takes 6 people to clear regardless of group gear vs. raid gear then the only benefit would be the ability to clear that group dungeon faster... But if we're in raid gear, there would be no point in even clearing the group dungeon to begin with!
I personally would like to see 2-3 raid geared people clear 6 person group dungeon content. Because raid gear should be so difficult to acquire it should be powerful.
If raid gear doesn't help trivialize the group content what is the point of getting raid gear?
Furor said:If a dungeon takes 6 people to clear regardless of group gear vs. raid gear then the only benefit would be the ability to clear that group dungeon faster... But if we're in raid gear, there would be no point in even clearing the group dungeon to begin with!
I personally would like to see 2-3 raid geared people clear 6 person group dungeon content. Because raid gear should be so difficult to acquire it should be powerful.
If raid gear doesn't help trivialize the group content what is the point of getting raid gear?
I don't see why raid gear has to trivialize anything. It should make the content easier, but not necessarily easymode.
The problem is that modern games have raid gear with massive stat inflation, like double the effectiveness of the group content gear. There's no reason it needs to be doubly as effective, as opposed to a 15-25% increase in effectiveness.
When you end up implementing stat inflation, you turn the release content into a ghost town within a year and your game feels dead. As far as I know, they've already said that they don't intend to itemize this way.
As mentioned in other posts, the majority of Pantheon's content will be targeting groups. There will be solo content, and there will be raid content, but Pantheon's focus is all about the grouping experience (and by groups, I mean groups of people who interact with each other, who regularly group with the same people, who have formed real friendships, etc. We want to encourage and help people find friends online with whom they can enjoy the game). We don't feel mechanics that just bring together random people to 'do' a dungeon result in the community we are looking to support. Typically the 'group finder' gathers people together, they run through the dungeon, speak infrequently if at all, and then once done, the group members are scattered to the winds. Rarely does this result in lasting, real relationships.
In EQ, groups, community, and real friendships mostly formed organically (e.g. you needed other people, so you found them, and in many cases friendships, guilds, etc. arose from this). With Pantheon, however, we are going to include some features to assist and bolster this essential aspect of community building. In this day and age, especially with many players only experience being these 'dungeon finder' scenarios, we feel that just letting this happen organically isn't going to be enough.
Now, back to loot. Our general philosophy is that people should be rewarded for taking chances and overcoming challenges. Basic risk vs. reward. So the more challenging and difficult the region or encounter, the beter the chance that you'll be rewarded with better loot.
Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario. So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only. We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging. Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage. So we do think the rewards should reflect that.
That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
We also want to avoid the perception that the 'real' game is only at the 'end game' (e.g. at or near the current level cap). When players perceive that to be the case, many choose to power level themselves or their friends. This results in bypassing low and mid level content, and power leveling is also typically repetative (and thefore often boring), but people will do it anyway if they feel they have to reach the 'end game' as quickly as possible (it's just human nature). They will even do it if they are having less fun in the process (which IMHO is just horrible -- creating a situation where players have to choose between fun and efficiency (perceived or true) is bad(TM)). So we want to make sure there is fun and plentiful content at all levels, including solo, group, and raid oriented content. Yes, we want to see raids in low and mid level zones.
So now you know our goals and our philosophy, but this is definitely an area where we'd love any and all feedback and ideas. If raiding isn't the only source of the 'best' gear, then how do we reward players for taking significant risks in a group setting? Likewise, if great loot can be obtained by grouping, will people still raid? I think this is a great thread, and would love to hear more from you guys.
thanks,
-Brad
I think in terms of simple loot table manipulation (making it different from the norm) it's a difficult situation. With the precepts you've already put out there though to make gear matter again in terms of utility I think that kind of helps you out a bit.
As for a direction answer to your question...perhaps you combine the two activities rather than separate them. Instead of a complete item dropping from a raid or dungeon or world boss, have EACH of these drop items you need in order to create that item that would normally drop from one source only. Perhaps that could be crafting material, but then you need a master crafter to make it, so maybe not just an idea. Or perhaps they are key items that you can't trade, sell, buy, etc and you simply turn them into some old muramasa looking blacksmith along with some gold etc to have it made. There are myriad options in that regard.
I believe by having "fragments" or pieces of what you need for good gear you encourage players to participate in everything, rather than focusing on one encounter ad nauseum until you get what you want. As for a fear of "but what if i have bad luck with drops?" well, you simply have a higher drop rate for each, rather than %5 for a complete you get %20 for 5 pieces or something.
This ALSO ensures that max level players have a reason to do something other than the newest raid/dungeon, which is better for everyone. BUT ONLY if there is some sort of mentor system planned, otherwise a capped toon in a lowbie raid would be pretty silly.
Aradune said:As mentioned in other posts, the majority of Pantheon's content will be targeting groups. There will be solo content, and there will be raid content, but Pantheon's focus is all about the grouping experience (and by groups, I mean groups of people who interact with each other, who regularly group with the same people, who have formed real friendships, etc. We want to encourage and help people find friends online with whom they can enjoy the game). We don't feel mechanics that just bring together random people to 'do' a dungeon result in the community we are looking to support. Typically the 'group finder' gathers people together, they run through the dungeon, speak infrequently if at all, and then once done, the group members are scattered to the winds. Rarely does this result in lasting, real relationships.
In EQ, groups, community, and real friendships mostly formed organically (e.g. you needed other people, so you found them, and in many cases friendships, guilds, etc. arose from this). With Pantheon, however, we are going to include some features to assist and bolster this essential aspect of community building. In this day and age, especially with many players only experience being these 'dungeon finder' scenarios, we feel that just letting this happen organically isn't going to be enough.
Now, back to loot. Our general philosophy is that people should be rewarded for taking chances and overcoming challenges. Basic risk vs. reward. So the more challenging and difficult the region or encounter, the beter the chance that you'll be rewarded with better loot.
Unfortunately, in the past, raiding has been considered the ultimate risk vs. reward scenario, or even the 'only' high risk vs. reward scenario. So the best loot has traditionally been obtained by raiding, and raiding only. We do feel that raiding is (or at least should be) challenging. Not only are the encounters more difficult, but bringing in and organizing large groups of players, orchestrating the battle, making sure people are doing what they are supposed to, etc. is challenging to manage. So we do think the rewards should reflect that.
That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
We also want to avoid the perception that the 'real' game is only at the 'end game' (e.g. at or near the current level cap). When players perceive that to be the case, many choose to power level themselves or their friends. This results in bypassing low and mid level content, and power leveling is also typically repetative (and thefore often boring), but people will do it anyway if they feel they have to reach the 'end game' as quickly as possible (it's just human nature). They will even do it if they are having less fun in the process (which IMHO is just horrible -- creating a situation where players have to choose between fun and efficiency (perceived or true) is bad(TM)). So we want to make sure there is fun and plentiful content at all levels, including solo, group, and raid oriented content. Yes, we want to see raids in low and mid level zones.
So now you know our goals and our philosophy, but this is definitely an area where we'd love any and all feedback and ideas. If raiding isn't the only source of the 'best' gear, then how do we reward players for taking significant risks in a group setting? Likewise, if great loot can be obtained by grouping, will people still raid? I think this is a great thread, and would love to hear more from you guys.
thanks,
-Brad
I really enjoyed reading your post. I agree completely. I do raid in games - but I find that most of my social content is in group content versus raid content. Most of my time is spent in group content too. As a plug I like 6 mans over 8 mans ;). As a guild leader, it is nice to have a big raid to get the gang all together (or sometimes we host a party/event), but I see the most bonding happening when they break up into smaller groups and have to work together and talk things out, versus follow a raid leader.
I would enjoy Pantheon if it were focused more on its smaller group content than its raids, because that is where I spend more of my time. Some of the hardest content I have played has come from group content where if one person messes up or dies its a wipe for the group. Everyone has to pull their weight. When I was playing The Secret World at testing and launch, there were no raids, however their nightmare 5-mans were tougher and required more coordination than any raid I had ever been on at that point. It would be nice to see that loot would reflect the fact you are have to work together as a group.
To answer your question, I personally would still raid. How often would depend on how long and difficult the raid is, and how much I or a guild member wants that loot/update. Yes small groups would be more my everyday bread and butter, but it would be nice to raid to break things up. It is fun getting a guild together. If it is a more casual raid it is also nice to work together with a larger group of people on your server.
Vanguard had an elegant solution that was mostly abandoned at some point although remnants of the system did remain in the game.
This was the "golden mob" system. The basis was that players could work together for extended play sessions sometimes even weeks to put together a set of items and flags that would allow them to spawn a boss just for their group.
This boss had a golden outline and could only be attacked by the group that spawned it.
This is so much better than any kind of instancing.
The problem is that complex quests like this to spawn boss mobs take a lot of time to implement I would think.
Even if you look at EQ1, when epics came out with Kunark some classes could get pretty far without putting together a raid.
The true benefit to a system like this is all the great mysteries that can be created with interesting and complex quests with solutions that are not immediately apparent.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
I know most of the people who are here mostly look through an EQ lens at everything. However when it comes to raid type content, I think FFXI did a better job as far as making extremely varied content, instead of just "enter dungeon, kill bosses, loot drops." If you compare FFXI content nothing really worked on the same system, and progression was horizontal rather than vertical. Salvage was one of my favorite FFXI raids and I have seen no other game do anything even remotely like it. It happened to be instanced and have a lockout but sometimes instancing can be a good thing for game design if you have both a lore based reason for the encounter being instanced, and also if the instancing allows you to do something with the encounter that can't be done without instancing. As far as the rewards are concerned, I hate hate hate hate token or currency based systems as the sole method of rewards for content completion, although I can stomach it as a side option along with normal rare drops. When it comes to the actual itemization, I do not want to see this:
Level 1 breastplate
AC: 10 Vit +1 Str +1 Dex +1
Level 5 breastplate
AC: 15 Vit +2 Str +2 Dex +2
Level 10 breastplate
AC: 25 Vit +3 Str +3 Dex +3
I can't imagine anything more boring, not to mention that in the majority of modern games with design like this, the gear doesn't make any real difference in the leveling process.
Is it too much to ask for average looking gear with the majority having no stats at low levels?
To me, the idea of full-on raid gear itself, is a joke.
Who is to say if you camp the same area, people should all acquire the same things? Such a trivialized event, that nearly everyone in the known lands has seen, or even kill this King/Minion..
I think the should be more Darwinian. That Brad shouldn't be worried about stocking a dungeon with known raid content, but to just make the world have things they naturally would. And those who adventure about enough, or solve the world's riddles, will acquire such things.
There is no reason to stock a dungeon full of raid content/equipment, if there is no reason for that dungeon, or the hierarchy of their dwelling. Mobs, even within a big dungeon can spawn anywhere. In today's 64bit environment & given dynamic triggers events.. and "see hidden" abilities (save vs throw)... I can see well oiled groups and adventures following different paths, or experience, based on keenness, etc..
Camping a boss should not be possible in Pantheon, unless you plan on camping the whole dwelling in which he controls & resides. Maid quarters would be the most likely bet, not the rhetorical throne room. There are some massive opportunities here, with regards to Raiding a breathing dungeon. Doing so should not always end up the same way, every time.
I think Dungeons should be built and stocked with things those inhabitants would behold, and not worry about raid equipment.
Equpment... is something any guild, or individual should be pursuing at all times. Their equipment should have to be repaired, upgraded in towns, by in-game Crafters. Coming across magical armors, or free armor should indeed be VERY RARE...
Perhaps rare leather than can be taken back to Player Crafters and tailored for use, etc. But always back to the player economy on EQUIPMENT. You find a rare gnoll hide... now it must be prepped by players Crafters to make use of it's magical properties.
Nothing should be outright "Raid Gear" unless it is truly rare. Not trivialized, Not something assured.
I agree that the world should be more about groups and friends. Every day raiding make Pantheon an arcade game, not a role playing game. I think raids will be special... I can only imagine how I would design a raid encounter & I know Brad is more diabolical than me.
How does 30 people, expect to fend off a Goblin King, deep in his dwelling, when there are thousands of them near by..? Just showing up... isn't the answer..!!
Hieromonk said:
To me, the idea of full-on raid gear itself, is a joke.
Who is to say if you camp the same area, people should all acquire the same things? Such a trivialized event, that nearly everyone in the known lands has seen, or even kill this King/Minion..I think the should be more Darwinian. That Brad shouldn't be worried about stocking a dungeon with known raid content, but to just make the world have things they naturally would. And those who adventure about enough, or solve the world's riddles, will acquire such things.
There is no reason to stock a dungeon full of raid content/equipment, if there is no reason for that dungeon, or the hierarchy of their dwelling. Mobs, even within a big dungeon can spawn anywhere. In today's 64bit environment & given dynamic triggers events.. and "see hidden" abilities (save vs throw)... I can see well oiled groups and adventures following different paths, or experience, based on keenness, etc..
Camping a boss should not be possible in Pantheon, unless you plan on camping the whole dwelling in which he controls & resides. Maid quarters would be the most likely bet, not the rhetorical throne room. There are some massive opportunities here, with regards to Raiding a breathing dungeon. Doing so should not always end up the same way, every time.
I think Dungeons should be built and stocked with things those inhabitants would behold, and not worry about raid equipment.
Equpment... is something any guild, or individual should be pursuing at all times. Their equipment should have to be repaired, upgraded in towns, by in-game Crafters. Coming across magical armors, or free armor should indeed be VERY RARE...
Perhaps rare leather than can be taken back to Player Crafters and tailored for use, etc. But always back to the player economy on EQUIPMENT. You find a rare gnoll hide... now it must be prepped by players Crafters to make use of it's magical properties.
Nothing should be outright "Raid Gear" unless it is truly rare. Not trivialized, Not something assured.
I agree that the world should be more about groups and friends. Every day raiding make Pantheon an arcade game, not a role playing game. I think raids will be special... I can only imagine how I would design a raid encounter & I know Brad is more diabolical than me.How does 30 people, expect to fend off a Goblin King, deep in his dwelling, when there are thousands of them near by..? Just showing up... isn't the answer..!!
Hard for me to tell how practical this is. It would be a major departure from the model of every game out there, for better or for worse. The one thing I dislike about this proposed system is that it leaves your equipment acquisition up to a dice roll. The nice part about guaranteed loot is that you're rewarded for your effort, even if the effort is low in some cases.
Also, having thousands of NPCs attacking would almost certainly overload modern game infrastructure. The amount of lag you'd have to deal with would completely destroy fun. Having thousands of NPCs being controlled simultaneously by the server is likely just not feasible with current tech.
If raids are of adequate difficulty, I think that would suffice. Most games hand out the first 1-2 tiers of gear for a content release in facerollable content. Challenging raids guarantee some exclusivity.