Reward for your effort... ?
Is that a reward for looking into all the dark shadows you see over your shoulder, in the cliffs & craiges as you travel about (looking for a time of day entrance to a dungeon)...? or the reward for going back to the scene of the last crime, over and over....?
What takes more effort, vigilance, or maze running?
Additionally, equipment should not be a dice roll, it should be crafted & tailored to your likeing and ability. All kinds of cloth, banded, scale, chain, ring, lether, etc.. all with different facets and enchantments, etc. If you guild happens to get a rare dragon scale, then your guild crafter will be able to use that in making a specific armor for whomever is deserving. Why... how should a raid yield identical armor for everyone.. is senseless. But if these riad mobs drop materials that crafters can use, makes sense and also adds to the rarity of EQUIPMENT. Your equipment..
In EQ nobody had a perfect set of armor (very few), it was hodge podge and from across several continents. Most people's armor was not aqauired from shopping at a one-stop walmart dungeon, camped repeatedly by a guild.
Hieromonk said:Additionally, equipment should not be a dice roll, it should be crafted & tailored to your likeing and ability. All kinds of cloth, banded, scale, chain, ring, lether, etc.. all with different facets and enchantments, etc. If you guild happens to get a rare dragon scale, then your guild crafter will be able to use that in making a specific armor for whomever is deserving. Why... how should a raid yield identical armor for everyone.. is senseless. But if these riad mobs drop materials that crafters can use, makes sense and also adds to the rarity of EQUIPMENT. Your equipment..
I don't see how "happens to get a rare dragon scale" isn't almost definitionally having your equipment left up to a dice roll. This is like the Core Band from APW in Vanguard - kill the same mob dozens of times on the extreme off chance that someone gets a game changing item.
I also don't see how it's senseless that a raid yields identical armor. We have to think of these things in terms of game itemization, the limitations of technology, and the practicality of a system.
I agree that crafting should play a more major role in equipment acquisition compared to other games, but it's important to be precise when describing the mechanism of how crafting can influence things. That goes for any game mechanic, really.
Hieromonk said:In EQ nobody had a perfect set of armor (very few), it was hodge podge and from across several continents. Most people's armor was not aqauired from shopping at a one-stop walmart dungeon, camped repeatedly by a guild.
That's not true at all, at least not in the endgame. A lot of people had a mix and match of gear early on, but it didn't take a lot of effort to find out the ideal path as you started progressing. It's important to note that the genre is two decades old at this point, and we didn't have the mental concept of "best in slot" at the time. In a game with vertical gear progression, it's practically impossible to avoid the "item X is best in slot for situation Y" situation, especially given how thoroughly educated modern MMO players are on game mechanics compared to the old days.
Endgame in vanilla EQ was 100% players poopsocking the same dragons over and over again to achieve the best gear possible. The ridiculously long respawn timers and large loot tables with low individual drop chances was the only thing that prevented players from being homogenous, gear-wise. In short, it was simply a time gate. On an indefinite timeline, every player in vanilla EQ (look at Project 1999 for evidence of this) will have the same equipment unless they're looking to intentionally damage their effectiveness, or are indifferent to the concept of maximizing effectiveness.
First I would like to say thank you to Brad for the insight and it really makes me feel better about the direction of the game (not that I was feeling bad about it, just that it was a little boost to my belief in it) that raiding will not be the 'be-all to end-all' of content here. I am all for raiding being handled well and still being challenging and important and even dropping some of the best stuff but having fomulaic raiding tiers funnel everyone into the same content is something I really want to seem mmos steping away from.
To address this:
"So now you know our goals and our philosophy, but this is definitely an area where we'd love any and all feedback and ideas. If raiding isn't the only source of the 'best' gear, then how do we reward players for taking significant risks in a group setting? Likewise, if great loot can be obtained by grouping, will people still raid? I think this is a great thread, and would love to hear more from you guys."
I think the answer is to continue to look to your horizontal itemization goals. You can still have raids be just as rewarding as ever, have them contain top class items with unique properties / special arrangements of properties BUT have different, just as valuable items droping from other content. This should mean that people will still want to raid as they will contain unique and powerful rewards (not to mention some enjoy the experience for the experience) that can only be obtained through raiding while at the same time making other content just as valid (and still interesting to players even if they have obtained raid loot because the loot from other content may yet be valuable to you).
An example to demonstrate what I was talking about in the previous paragraph:
Dynamis, a large scale raid type experience offering relic (similar to epic weapons) and class specific armor sets that offer special class specific skill bonuses.
Nyzul Isle assault, a full party tower climb that rewards players with a decent set of armor and a unique, class specific skill and contributes to the completion of mythic weapons (a second epic like weapon comparable to relics)
Completion of Chains of Promathia story mission arc (some of you will look at this with disgust but trust me it isn't like you would think, it required a serious, very dedicated group to complete and was considered to be too hard by a lot of players in its prime), story missions that would send you into dangerous teritory, have you farm things sometimes, and have you fight special bosses which would reward you with one of the best ring options in the game.
All three pieces of content are challenging regardless of the requirements involved and all of them provide valid incentive even if you have completed the others.
Hieromonk said:Reward for your effort... ?
Is that a reward for looking into all the dark shadows you see over your shoulder, in the cliffs & craiges as you travel about (looking for a time of day entrance to a dungeon)...? or the reward for going back to the scene of the last crime, over and over....?
What takes more effort, vigilance, or maze running?
Additionally, equipment should not be a dice roll, it should be crafted & tailored to your likeing and ability. All kinds of cloth, banded, scale, chain, ring, lether, etc.. all with different facets and enchantments, etc. If you guild happens to get a rare dragon scale, then your guild crafter will be able to use that in making a specific armor for whomever is deserving. Why... how should a raid yield identical armor for everyone.. is senseless. But if these riad mobs drop materials that crafters can use, makes sense and also adds to the rarity of EQUIPMENT. Your equipment..
In EQ nobody had a perfect set of armor (very few), it was hodge podge and from across several continents. Most people's armor was not aqauired from shopping at a one-stop walmart dungeon, camped repeatedly by a guild.
IMO crafting in games has been pretty boring and something that you skill up solo while none of your friends are online... So why should crafter then be in charge of making everyones loot ?
Adventuring is what should get you loot... its the meat and potatoes of the whole game and it should provide the games rewards.
Instead of crafters making the loot out of raid drops I would rather more complex items just be assembled by an NPC that requires faction to get on their good side.
Don't give such an important role as making the games loot to players... Leave crafting be for expendables and corpse recovery gear.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:IMO crafting in games has been pretty boring and something that you skill up solo while none of your friends are online... So why should crafter then be in charge of making everyones loot ?
Adventuring is what should get you loot... its the meat and potatoes of the whole game and it should provide the games rewards.
Instead of crafters making the loot out of raid drops I would rather more complex items just be assembled by an NPC that requires faction to get on their good side.
Don't give such an important role as making the games loot to players... Leave crafting be for expendables and corpse recovery gear.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Any reason why you take this stance?
Every game has crafting to an extent, and in Vanguard, the best in slot endgame armor required crafting. It worked pretty well and gave relevance to crafting when there wouldn't have been any otherwise.
Well I feel that right now there are many crafting centric games about to release ... Crowfall, Repopulation, Elyria... and more.
I think the strong suit that Brad and Co. have is reigniting the adventuring side of these games that have been lost.
Now that's not to say that Coldain Prayer Shawl type quests shouldn't be in because the ring wars were some of the best content in an mmo ever.
As far as having crafting which is mostly just skilled up solo in every game that I can remember being the gate for group and raid loot... I just say no...
When I go from a rusty sword to a steel sword and then a fine steel sword sure I don't mind these being made by crafters but don't tell me the some ancient relic armor was just crafted by some guy that just grinded a bunch for a month.
It would be a huge mistake to make Pantheon into another crafting centric game. I want an adventure, actually lots of them...
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
The first endgame in FFXI was a mix of non-instanced ground spawns and a non-instanced zone called Sky where you farmed items to pop and kill gods. The main drops people were looking for were called abjurations. The abjurations were paired with player crafted cursed armor, and traded to an npc who would use the abjuration to bless the cursed armor. It was a pretty good system.
Angrykiz said:Well I feel that right now there are many crafting centric games about to release ... Crowfall, Repopulation, Elyria... and more.
I think the strong suit that Brad and Co. have is reigniting the adventuring side of these games that have been lost.
Now that's not to say that Coldain Prayer Shawl type quests shouldn't be in because the ring wars were some of the best content in an mmo ever.
As far as having crafting which is mostly just skilled up solo in every game that I can remember being the gate for group and raid loot... I just say no...
When I go from a rusty sword to a steel sword and then a fine steel sword sure I don't mind these being made by crafters but don't tell me the some ancient relic armor was just crafted by some guy that just grinded a bunch for a month.
It would be a huge mistake to make Pantheon into another crafting centric game. I want an adventure, actually lots of them...
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Do you remeber the spell "identify", or "enchant" in EQ..?
Player Crafting only takes it a step further, to make a richer, deeper game and community. Which bounces adventuring & crafting off each other in a circle of commerce. Did you ever play Ultima Online, where Grand Master Crafters had rows of people waiting in a line to see them, while Master Crafters had a smaller line, and charged less for repairing armor.. or fixing things. ..?
Those crafters and Guild crafter who reach the highest epotomy of their art, will be as respected as those hearty travelers whom are wearing their worked on armors.
Magic stave..? Find the magic wood, find the magic spider silk, find the magic gem, find the right Enchanter and Artificer and have your magic stave made. But ohhh so different than the next nearest magic stave you might see... different materials, different crafters... different wood, etc...
There will be no one magic stave for all...
Example:
Coming off a raid, with a few dragons scales, dragon sinew, glowing gem and perhaps a talon... means that Guild has a lot of decision making to do... and perhaps months more of material seeking to make those Dragon Mats worthwhile and usable for anyone in their guild. But those items, depending on who actually did the tailoring, enchanting, crafting, etc... will be marvelous and offer great properties.
While another guild, might be using their treasures/loots for a completely different purpose. Their choice, their path...
Realistically, how does a dragon drop a chest piece of armor, that fits everyone on the server... dumb. That over time, everyone will be wearing the exact same thing..... dumb.
I am not saying all raid loot should be in the form of mats (craftable materials), just that top-end magical ARMOR itself, should be extremely rare. And on a server of 6,000 and in a years time, there should only be 15 or so found. Not hundreds. (that is what rare means)
The idea, that a Raid party can show up 10x to the same dungeon and KNOWS it will kill a raid mob that drops the SAME thing.. and is rinse & repeatable so that everyone who wants can have the Magical ringmail that shrinks to fit for everyone.... is trivial. A trained monkey can do that raid.. and owning the reward becomes trivial, because the effort becomes trivial.
Raid loot should come in forms of magical gems, stones, trinkets... rare inks, metals, herbs, parchments and other stuff those Goblins Kings hold dear. Not thousands of human brestplates collecting dust in the corner of the Kings chamber.. providing a shopping experience for anyone who looks.
Pantheon will be more dynamic than Everquest or Vanguard. It will have more land, more dungeons, more towns, more boats, more houses... it is a bigger world. The idea of waltzing into a dungeon for a raid is a misnomer. You did that on previous games, because they were 32bit game worlds, and had limitations. But today, the Role Playing Vision can be realized given 64bit and today's engines & mechanics.
You could not even own a boat in EverQuest... in later Pantheon expansions, there will be player made boats & travel... There will be player housing and actual Guild halls...
Crafters will be a massive part of everything you do in Pantheon, otherwise it will just become a connect-the-dots... "I got it".. style of game. Instead of an interwoven world of public & private commerce breathing life into the online community...
Take from the world and build out of it.
EQUIPMENT... is what you Guild needs to conquer a dragon.. it is not what you knock on the dragon's door for... excuse me Mr Dragon, do you have a BP for me and a few friends..? That is micky mouse fisherprice stuff.
Coincidentally, how many hackers are going to be into crafting..?
Woah now hold your horses... Vanguard was friggin HUGE, that was one of its fatal flaws...
It was so big that even a massive dev team couldn't fill it all with content.
Some dungeons were never even visited and never itemized.
Crafting and Diplomacy both felt very tacked on and mostly a waste of Dev time in Vanguard imo. I did both of these to max levels and it was a boring slog tbh.
I would have rather enjoyed a much more fleshed out world with deeper quests and itemization than 2 spheres of gameplay that make me fall asleep on the keyboard literally.
I think a world that starts off about the size of EQ 1 would be just fine... growing with expansions that I will gladly buy every time.
What it really boils down to though is that I don't want crafting a largely solo activity to gate my ability to get gear from killing group and raid mobs.
If you solo your crafting to max level then maybe you can make gear that is ok for people that just solo some easy mobs. Seems logical to me.
Kiz~
Angrykiz said:Woah now hold your horses... Vanguard was friggin HUGE, that was one of its fatal flaws...
It was so big that even a massive dev team couldn't fill it all with content.
Some dungeons were never even visited and never itemized.
Crafting and Diplomacy both felt very tacked on and mostly a waste of Dev time in Vanguard imo. I did both of these to max levels and it was a boring slog tbh.
I would have rather enjoyed a much more fleshed out world with deeper quests and itemization than 2 spheres of gameplay that make me fall asleep on the keyboard literally.
I think a world that starts off about the size of EQ 1 would be just fine... growing with expansions that I will gladly buy every time.
What it really boils down to though is that I don't want crafting a largely solo activity to gate my ability to get gear from killing group and raid mobs.
If you solo your crafting to max level then maybe you can make gear that is ok for people that just solo some easy mobs. Seems logical to me.
Kiz~
Vanguard's game world was pretty small compared to EQ. Even vanilla probably had a larger game world. Vanguard's zones weren't populated because it was a rushed product, not because of its size.
Angrykiz said:Woah now hold your horses... Vanguard was friggin HUGE, that was one of its fatal flaws... It was so big that even a massive dev team couldn't fill it all with content. Some dungeons were never even visited and never itemized.
Crafting and Diplomacy both felt very tacked on and mostly a waste of Dev time in Vanguard imo. I did both of these to max levels and it was a boring slog tbh. I would have rather enjoyed a much more fleshed out world with deeper quests and itemization than 2 spheres of gameplay that make me fall asleep on the keyboard literally.
I think a world that starts off about the size of EQ 1 would be just fine... growing with expansions that I will gladly buy every time. What it really boils down to though is that I don't want crafting a largely solo activity to gate my ability to get gear from killing group and raid mobs.
If you solo your crafting to max level then maybe you can make gear that is ok for people that just solo some easy mobs. Seems logical to me.
Kiz~
Vanguard was the perfect size of game world upon release.
The problem was VG needed another 7 months of development before release, to flush the game world out more.. and make it living in breathing in all parts & corners. And what does it matter.. if certain dungeons in Pantheon are never visited, or found, or known about. Terminus is bigger than you & me, or any guild. Just because YOU... and/or YOUR guild... and/or a Spoiler site doesn't know about them, means nothing. If they are there, but untold.
Also, in a bigger world if it takes 3h to travel there... then it means it will take your whole guild 5h to assemble.. the adventure begins the moment you decide to go... not when you arrive.
Pantheon is a grown up version of EQ/VG.
Just because you have 40 people assembled at an entrance to a dungeon, doesn't main anything. What is inside will determine that. And if your elite rogue doesn't see a hidden passage way, or the lead dwarve in your guild, innate abilities do not pick up on a hidden lever.. early in the dungeon.. your Raid will be different from others.
Everything is going to have depth. Mobs will not be sitting in alcoves while you camp one room over.. that is child's play compared to how mobs will spawn, and how they will help each other, etc.
Levels in Pantheon will take longer (I hope like D&D scale of harder than the last level. So that a lvl 15 warrior, and a lvl 18 warrior are months apart.)
Expanding population will migrate through the world differently in a bigger, open world. In Terminus, You are not going to be in Guk one hour, then in Perma the next. Because such travel would require preparations and rations and a means to travel those distances. It is not a solo game..
Being too big is never a problem.. it is the fear of not knowing how to travel those distance.. by certain people, that makes the world too big.
Pantheon is not an arcade game, or a video game, but a full-on role playing game.
Diplomacy is VG was great. Having high enough Diplomatic powers, to get a greeting with an Emperor.. who then gives you a quest you can share with your guild... awesomesauce..!!
Enter a dungeon, and even the entrance guards recognize your diplo status and escort you deeper into the dungeon, to see their diplomat..? And the item you seek, can be given to you, instead of having a whole guild fight down to it... awesomesauce..!
In VG... things where left undone. You have to look beyond what you have played to understand the richness that is Pantheon. How those previous game mechanics can be taken to the next level. It doesn't take anymore programming, it is just that 64bit allows for more of what has been missing in these RPGs.
High Hold pass... had a clerk and key room, so guests could get a room. Now, today it will be possible for you to enter a town, buy a room for a week & drop off your traveler's chest and warez in it, and settle down in that area.. until you need to meet up with friends in another town. Things can be a bit deeper and richer.
You are thinking too much along the lines of past game mechanics, and not looking at how future ones can eleviate the probelms you bring up.
Lastly, do you not see the importance of harvesting materials from the game world, like in VG... and EQ/EQ2?
About how important harvesting was, & to have Guild members each working on their perspective trades..? Fletching, tailoring, smithing, alchemy, scribing, etc.. Woodworking... for player houses and boats and guild halls.. how interdependent it all was. That brining back berries you happen to find and giving it to you Guild chemist, could be a huge difference in a raid 2 weeks later, because he turned them into regen potions..
Crafting is what makes a game... a real role playing game..!
Siat said:I know most of the people who are here mostly look through an EQ lens at everything. However when it comes to raid type content, I think FFXI did a better job as far as making extremely varied content, instead of just "enter dungeon, kill bosses, loot drops." If you compare FFXI content nothing really worked on the same system, and progression was horizontal rather than vertical. Salvage was one of my favorite FFXI raids and I have seen no other game do anything even remotely like it. It happened to be instanced and have a lockout but sometimes instancing can be a good thing for game design if you have both a lore based reason for the encounter being instanced, and also if the instancing allows you to do something with the encounter that can't be done without instancing. As far as the rewards are concerned, I hate hate hate hate token or currency based systems as the sole method of rewards for content completion, although I can stomach it as a side option along with normal rare drops. When it comes to the actual itemization, I do not want to see this:
Level 1 breastplate
AC: 10 Vit +1 Str +1 Dex +1
Level 5 breastplate
AC: 15 Vit +2 Str +2 Dex +2
Level 10 breastplate
AC: 25 Vit +3 Str +3 Dex +3
I can't imagine anything more boring, not to mention that in the majority of modern games with design like this, the gear doesn't make any real difference in the leveling process.
Is it too much to ask for average looking gear with the majority having no stats at low levels?
I'd like to hear more of how FFXI was different from the raid perspective. You say it was horizontal rather than vertical, but equipment progression is horizontal by nature. EQ, especially early on, had a ton of horizontal progression. The difference between the average player at 60 in kunark and a 60 at the end of velious in raid gear and all their abilities was absolutely massive. That was all horizontal progression, but it did mostly involved slaying progressively harder npcs and monsters.
How did FFXI differ from entering a dungeon and killing mobs? How would this apply to a game without instancing? If instancing is required, to me that is simply not an option. Nothing is worth compromising the open, persistent nature of a virtual world.
Dullahan said:Siat said:I know most of the people who are here mostly look through an EQ lens at everything. However when it comes to raid type content, I think FFXI did a better job as far as making extremely varied content, instead of just "enter dungeon, kill bosses, loot drops." If you compare FFXI content nothing really worked on the same system, and progression was horizontal rather than vertical. Salvage was one of my favorite FFXI raids and I have seen no other game do anything even remotely like it. It happened to be instanced and have a lockout but sometimes instancing can be a good thing for game design if you have both a lore based reason for the encounter being instanced, and also if the instancing allows you to do something with the encounter that can't be done without instancing. As far as the rewards are concerned, I hate hate hate hate token or currency based systems as the sole method of rewards for content completion, although I can stomach it as a side option along with normal rare drops. When it comes to the actual itemization, I do not want to see this:
Level 1 breastplate
AC: 10 Vit +1 Str +1 Dex +1
Level 5 breastplate
AC: 15 Vit +2 Str +2 Dex +2
Level 10 breastplate
AC: 25 Vit +3 Str +3 Dex +3
I can't imagine anything more boring, not to mention that in the majority of modern games with design like this, the gear doesn't make any real difference in the leveling process.
Is it too much to ask for average looking gear with the majority having no stats at low levels?
I'd like to hear more of how FFXI was different from the raid perspective. You say it was horizontal rather than vertical, but equipment progression is horizontal by nature. EQ, especially early on, had a ton of horizontal progression. The difference between the average player at 60 in kunark and a 60 at the end of velious in raid gear and all their abilities was absolutely massive. That was all horizontal progression, but it did mostly involved slaying progressively harder npcs and monsters.
How did FFXI differ from entering a dungeon and killing mobs? How would this apply to a game without instancing? If instancing is required, to me that is simply not an option. Nothing is worth compromising the open, persistent nature of a virtual world.
Kajidourden said:Dullahan said:I'd like to hear more of how FFXI was different from the raid perspective. You say it was horizontal rather than vertical, but equipment progression is horizontal by nature. EQ, especially early on, had a ton of horizontal progression. The difference between the average player at 60 in kunark and a 60 at the end of velious in raid gear and all their abilities was absolutely massive. That was all horizontal progression, but it did mostly involved slaying progressively harder npcs and monsters.
How did FFXI differ from entering a dungeon and killing mobs? How would this apply to a game without instancing? If instancing is required, to me that is simply not an option. Nothing is worth compromising the open, persistent nature of a virtual world.
Simply put, nothing was tiered or ranked beyond level 75. Even then, there were probably 20 or so pieces of gear that were amazing at any level no matter they be level 10 ot level 75. It was not: Kill newest content boss; get best gear.
FFXI was and still is fundamentally different though because of one simple thing...gear swapping. THAT is what made any of that stuff possible. Its one thing to have the itemization, but if you can't utilize it effectively then meh. For instance in ffxi you would DPS with haste/accuracy gear on, and then when you had enough TP for a weaponskill you would gearswap as part of that macro into gear that had great stats for that weaponskill/damage modifier. Once you'd used your weaponskill you would go back to DPS/TP building gear. I don't think we'll be getting anything like that in pantheon though.
As far as instancing goes I can take it or leave it, really doesn't matter to me. I've played plenty of non-instanced games and they have their share of BS, same for instanced.
Don't know if you actually played EQ, but when you killed bosses and dragons, especially early on, you did so using various items and quest rewards from content between 1-max. It didn't vary as much as you've described, but many of a characters most important items such as journeyman boots or sets of resist gear were pretty much exclusively collected prior to end game.
Beyond that, it should be risk versus reward. A player generally shouldn't be wearing an item from a mob 40 levels below him unless it was just insanely rare (risk = time). I don't mind that sort of rarity, but in those extreme cases its frowned upon as a poor substitute for good gameplay. That sort of low level, ultra rare mob farming also tends to bring out the worst in people and is certainly not conducive to community building.
Dullahan said:I'd like to hear more of how FFXI was different from the raid perspective. You say it was horizontal rather than vertical, but equipment progression is horizontal by nature. EQ, especially early on, had a ton of horizontal progression. The difference between the average player at 60 in kunark and a 60 at the end of velious in raid gear and all their abilities was absolutely massive. That was all horizontal progression, but it did mostly involved slaying progressively harder npcs and monsters.
How did FFXI differ from entering a dungeon and killing mobs? How would this apply to a game without instancing? If instancing is required, to me that is simply not an option. Nothing is worth compromising the open, persistent nature of a virtual world.
I'm not sure but I think you may not be clear on what horizontal and vertical mean. Vertical progression is upwards, horizontal progression is sideways. I would have to say that the overwhelming majority of MMOs have been vertical progression, EQ included.
Sky and Sea were non instanced zones, but like most FFXI content they are more difficult to describe than a simple straight forward raid. There were open world spawns as well that were basically highly contested endgame content. Overtime they made more instanced types of content, some of it unnecessarily, some of it necessary. Salvage and Nyzul isle were the content that were instanced and also had time limits that wouldn't work non instanced, and the fact that they are instanced makes perfect sense with the lore of those zones. Dynamis and Limbus were not instanced but rather you were locked out of the zone while another group was inside.
Since players could change gear in combat, people made macros to swap gear to the best gear for each ability and weaponskill. This allowed the game to stick at the same level cap for a quite a long time before they bothered raising the cap. The progression was horizontal which no other game has managed to do since, until Pantheon.
Angrykiz said:I seriously hope there is no gear swapping during combat...
That sounds like a terrible and unrealistic gameplay mess, especially if its tied up with the macro system.
Kiz~
Definitely agree with you here. Pantheon will be able to have horizontal progression I think in a better way.
Kajidourden said:Speaking of them....what I Would LOVE to see in an mmo again are Weaponskills, or something akin to them. So satisfying to let off a sidewinder or slugshot as a Ranger, or Shark bite as a Thief. good times
I realize we likely won't see any weapon skills make it into the game but to get back on topic what I want to see more than any other thing in terms of "raid loot" is something akin to FFXI's relic weapons. However it is that Pantheon would go about it, I would love to have that ultimate goal to work towards for every class. For those who don't know...the relic weapon quests in FFXI were a long, grueling string of steps to upgrade an old artifact you find into the best weapon for the class, period.
No matter how many expansions came out it didn't change, there was ONE ultimate weapon for each class and they were all absolutely amazing. It gave you an ultimate goal to work towards that you knew wasn't going to just get replaced when the next expansion hit. VERY few people had fully upgraded relic weapons, but that's how it should be if you have a weapon for each class that is literally the ultimate.
I hate to have to correct you but most of the relics were NOT the best weapon for their class. Someone in my hnm ls was the first NA player to upgrade Bravura and it was a huge disappointment. The best combo for warriors was to use ridill and joyeuse, or to mainhand one of the decent axes and offhand ridill. If you played then you realize that probably on average 1 ridill dropped per month per server. Most of the weapons especially the mage weapons were crap. No black mage was getting rid of their hq staves set for the relic thats for sure. I think the main weapon that was known to be the best for the class was the GK and the sword, and then the shield and gjallorhorn. Over the years there has been some debate of wether gun or bow was better for rangers I think. Outside of that it was a massive effort to upgrade a relic that in most cases was just a show off item, not something anyone would really get to use regularly.
I will agree that building up tp for weapon skills was far more gratifying than recent button mashing fests released since then.
Siat said:Kajidourden said:Speaking of them....what I Would LOVE to see in an mmo again are Weaponskills, or something akin to them. So satisfying to let off a sidewinder or slugshot as a Ranger, or Shark bite as a Thief. good times
I realize we likely won't see any weapon skills make it into the game but to get back on topic what I want to see more than any other thing in terms of "raid loot" is something akin to FFXI's relic weapons. However it is that Pantheon would go about it, I would love to have that ultimate goal to work towards for every class. For those who don't know...the relic weapon quests in FFXI were a long, grueling string of steps to upgrade an old artifact you find into the best weapon for the class, period.
No matter how many expansions came out it didn't change, there was ONE ultimate weapon for each class and they were all absolutely amazing. It gave you an ultimate goal to work towards that you knew wasn't going to just get replaced when the next expansion hit. VERY few people had fully upgraded relic weapons, but that's how it should be if you have a weapon for each class that is literally the ultimate.I hate to have to correct you but most of the relics were NOT the best weapon for their class. Someone in my hnm ls was the first NA player to upgrade Bravura and it was a huge disappointment. The best combo for warriors was to use ridill and joyeuse, or to mainhand one of the decent axes and offhand ridill. If you played then you realize that probably on average 1 ridill dropped per month per server. Most of the weapons especially the mage weapons were crap. No black mage was getting rid of their hq staves set for the relic thats for sure. I think the main weapon that was known to be the best for the class was the GK and the sword, and then the shield and gjallorhorn. Over the years there has been some debate of wether gun or bow was better for rangers I think. Outside of that it was a massive effort to upgrade a relic that in most cases was just a show off item, not something anyone would really get to use regularly.
I will agree that building up tp for weapon skills was far more gratifying than recent button mashing fests released since then.
This isn't really true, most of the weapons were actually very good just some of them were not the 'best' for the class. Just as an example, apocalypse was the best weapon for dark knight at 75 (and a game changer for the class), mjolnir was the best melee weapon for white mage espeically when paired with a kraken club (it was a sight to behold seeing those run around), sapharai for monk was its top weapon too I believe, mandau was a top class dagger, excalibur was a very potent sword especially for paladin, ragnarok was a potent competitor for the native crit rate boost, gungnir was only outdone by the mythic lance at 75, etc. They were far form crap and many were the best or nearly the best weapon you could get in general.
This not being EQ I'd hope it will have different mechanics for gear.
Being rewarded because you have the time to raid is IMO rediculous.
That is like awarding me gas points because I sit in traffic more than others.
The best gear should be obtainable without having to make the game a job. I already have a job.
DKP seems to be most equitable if you are in a big guild. Most of the big guilds seem to have a primary and secondary raid group setup. Yea, I know life isn't fair but, everyone should be able to acquire suitable gear for the upper tier content. For a long time in EQ you were asked to list your gear prior to being invited to a raid.If it wasn't up to the content you were automatically excluded. So if the best gear came from raids it became difficult to even get in a raid.
I don' think that everyone should be given a pass to the best gear but, should be able to also experience end game content just like all the other subscribers.
Siat said:Dullahan said:I'd like to hear more of how FFXI was different from the raid perspective. You say it was horizontal rather than vertical, but equipment progression is horizontal by nature. EQ, especially early on, had a ton of horizontal progression. The difference between the average player at 60 in kunark and a 60 at the end of velious in raid gear and all their abilities was absolutely massive. That was all horizontal progression, but it did mostly involved slaying progressively harder npcs and monsters.
How did FFXI differ from entering a dungeon and killing mobs? How would this apply to a game without instancing? If instancing is required, to me that is simply not an option. Nothing is worth compromising the open, persistent nature of a virtual world.
I'm not sure but I think you may not be clear on what horizontal and vertical mean. Vertical progression is upwards, horizontal progression is sideways. I would have to say that the overwhelming majority of MMOs have been vertical progression, EQ included.
Sky and Sea were non instanced zones, but like most FFXI content they are more difficult to describe than a simple straight forward raid. There were open world spawns as well that were basically highly contested endgame content. Overtime they made more instanced types of content, some of it unnecessarily, some of it necessary. Salvage and Nyzul isle were the content that were instanced and also had time limits that wouldn't work non instanced, and the fact that they are instanced makes perfect sense with the lore of those zones. Dynamis and Limbus were not instanced but rather you were locked out of the zone while another group was inside.
Since players could change gear in combat, people made macros to swap gear to the best gear for each ability and weaponskill. This allowed the game to stick at the same level cap for a quite a long time before they bothered raising the cap. The progression was horizontal which no other game has managed to do since, until Pantheon.
How could I be unclear about the definition? What I cited was the perfect example of horizontal progression. From 50+ all of the other forms of strengthening your character beyond leveling itself is horizontal. For those at 60, especially during Kunark-Velious, all we had was "sideways" progression through achieving rewards from progressively harder content. There was no exp to get as they level cap did not go up.
Think outside of the box. Just because someone somewhere branded EQ "vertical" doesn't mean that was all there was. Especially during the original team's direction, there was a good deal of content beyond acquiring level based power.
