Theres nothing wrong with crafted "end game" gear, permitted its just as rare and hard to obtain as normal dropped items. If mob X drops robe of awesome rarely, but drops a bolt of magical cloth ultra rarely, you could justify the crafting gear being even better than the dropped. It required multiple players to obtain, it was rare, and beyond that theres still a chance that the crafter will fail or not create the highest quality version of the item.
I personally think this system better lends to the "virtual world" aspect and would offer more options as well as a way for players to customize their item during the crafting process.
Amsai said: Nothing wrong with crafring at endgame. But I would hate for it to be exclusively crafted gear at endgame. Besides from a lore perspective it would make sense the ancient dragon you killed was sitting on a hoard of treasure that had an ancient staff of magus or a dragonlance etc. Doesnt make as much sense that he was sitting on a bunch of bolts of cloth. Does he use that at his dragon sewing circle get together every friday evening? No there is nothing wrong with crafting at endgame. Just A) it needs to make sense and B) it shoukdnt be only crafring.
I don't see how it makes any more sense that a mob has complete pieces of armor than trinkets that could be used in crafting. Perhaps a bolt of cloth makes less sense on a dragon, but how often does one kill dragons anyway? If we are to believe this is truly a virtual world, most mobs would have something among their personal effects that could be used for crafting.
I don't want raiding to just be about items with better stats, I want raiding to give ability. I want raiding to be 'other-worldly'. And with this, I want people who raid to be 'other-worldly'. And what I mean is this, if you are in a group with your friends say a pally, a cleric, a monk, enchanter, and a warrior and some random monk joins the group. You and your friends are all max level but have not begun to raid but this random monk has raided....a lot. I want this 'raid' monk to perform more uniquely than the non raid monk. I don't just want their items to have better stats, I want this raid monk to be able to do things that the non raid monk can't. Which in turn would mean raiding doesn't just net you items with better stats (+20 str +20 dex + 100 strikethrough) raiding would net you ability.
Ways this can be done is by raid loot adding more ability than just stats. Items with special abilities such as clickies, or procs, or gives you buffs while item is equipped, or gives you abilities to activate while item is equipped. Another way for this to happen is for raids to drop really unique skills/spells and/or abilities. And another way for this to happen would be for FIRST the necessity of AAs (or some feature akin) and then to have a special section of AAs JUST for raiding where you can only unlock these AAs by raiding.
With all this said, grouping can still give you GREAT gear and items (maybe even the best) but I'd like to think those items being very difficult to get within a single group. AAs can still be had without raiding, I'd just like to see a special section dedicated to raiding, IF something like AAs are implemented. Raiding is a unique atmosphere and should ultimately make your character unique. A raid druid should perform more uniquely than a non raid druid. A raid bard should perform more uniquely than a non raid bard. A non raid bard can be AS strong as a raid bard but the raid bard should be able to do things that the non raid bard can't.
Dullahan said:Mephiles said:Dullahan said:How could I be unclear about the definition? What I cited was the perfect example of horizontal progression. From 50+ all of the other forms of strengthening your character beyond leveling itself is horizontal. For those at 60, especially during Kunark-Velious, all we had was "sideways" progression through achieving rewards from progressively harder content. There was no exp to get as they level cap did not go up.
Think outside of the box. Just because someone somewhere branded EQ "vertical" doesn't mean that was all there was. Especially during the original team's direction, there was a good deal of content beyond acquiring level based power.
They were responding to what you said about there being a large difference between players at level 60 in one expansion and players at level 60 in another which is decidedly not horizontal. I think you may not be seeing what is being said, which is that gear does not 'increase' in tiers in a horizontal only itemization system. You might have super hard raid x drop super weapon y then down the road they might add a new raid and the items from that raid would be more or less equal in power to the previous raid BUT it would offer different benfits ( say raid 1 drops a chest item that reflects damage while raid 2 drops a chest item that has an additional damage reduction property with neither inherently being a higher tier item).
I really hate to harp on this point, but I have to correct this.
Decidedly not horizontal by whom? No upward/vertical (level based) power gain is involved, thus only power gained by improving what you currently have available to you. There most certainly can be tiers in horizontal progression. What you are describing is no form of progression at all, horizontal or otherwise. Its just rehashed fluff.
It is decidedly not horizontal by logic. Horizontal movement is not upward movement, any increase by tiers therefore makes the system not 'entirely' horizontal at minimum. All due respect but considering you probably have not tried it, don't knock it. I spent years playing the game with this system and it was the MOST compelling itemization in any game I have ever played (and I have played a lot). You want an example of horizontal fluff? Guild Wars 2 does it. The kind of itemization I am talking about is where items are treated more like tools than they are a leveling mechanic. So you earned a screwdriver from that raid? It is awesome and it unscrews stuff. Now we can go do that other piece of content for a hammer, maybe over the weekened we'll get a saw. It most certainly is horizontal progression and my preferred way of handling items (and as I pointed out it lends itself to ensuring that more content remains valid over just the current top raid). I would rather keep vertical progression tied to levels and alternate advancement mechanics.
NoobieDoo said:I want this raid monk to be able to do things that the non raid monk can't. Which in turn would mean raiding doesn't just net you items with better stats (+20 str +20 dex + 100 strikethrough) raiding would net you ability.
Sounds interesting, and, I would think, if a player is ability to obtain abilities from killed mobs in Pantheon as has been previously discussed with the multi-colored mana system, than this idea may be a real possibility.
Amsai said: @Dullahan I should have modified that with "in my opinion" I read a lot of fantasy novels. When Im playing MMOs I always think of it as an interactive fantasy novel with me adventuring with a group of unlikely heroes. I can think of only one a small few that had the heroes crafring anything. So my perspective is skewed in that direction. Finding loot seems exciting. Making loot feels boring and lackluster. I couldnt change my view if I tried. It just feels more natural anf crafting powerful items seems ridiculous. But thats just me. If the devs decide to go full on crafting Ill just have to play it by ear and see if they can introduce crafting in a non soul crushing slit my wrists kind of way. @Noobie Def a solid idea. With the right ballance and design I could get behind that idea too.
An MMO should have far more depth than a book. A book focuses on specigfic characters and the telling of a very specific story. Tiny details like what your favorite shopkeeper likes to eat (to get a discount) or the shady dealings of a certain guard wouldn't come up. In a virtual world however, those little nuances are important.
Crafting may not be fun or important to you, but its still important t. People should remember that it takes all sorts to make a virtual world work. What may seem unappealing to you or me, may be just what someone else out there wants to do. Just as it takes all kinds in real life, there should be different forms of gameplay to accomodate and bring together an audience in such a game as Pantheon. In fact, unlike other games where most people take up a trade, I think the process should be laborious to the average player but rewarding and enjoyable to those who really like that sort of gameplay.
Mephiles said:Dullahan said:
I really hate to harp on this point, but I have to correct this.
Decidedly not horizontal by whom? No upward/vertical (level based) power gain is involved, thus only power gained by improving what you currently have available to you. There most certainly can be tiers in horizontal progression. What you are describing is no form of progression at all, horizontal or otherwise. Its just rehashed fluff.
It is decidedly not horizontal by logic. Horizontal movement is not upward movement, any increase by tiers therefore makes the system not 'entirely' horizontal at minimum. All due respect but considering you probably have not tried it, don't knock it. I spent years playing the game with this system and it was the MOST compelling itemization in any game I have ever played (and I have played a lot). You want an example of horizontal fluff? Guild Wars 2 does it. The kind of itemization I am talking about is where items are treated more like tools than they are a leveling mechanic. So you earned a screwdriver from that raid? It is awesome and it unscrews stuff. Now we can go do that other piece of content for a hammer, maybe over the weekened we'll get a saw. It most certainly is horizontal progression and my preferred way of handling items (and as I pointed out it lends itself to ensuring that more content remains valid over just the current top raid). I would rather keep vertical progression tied to levels and alternate advancement mechanics.
You should look into Camelot Unchained and what has been announced of EQ Next. Both games have "horizontal progression" systems with tiers. Progression without actual advancement isn't progression at all. If, however, you are progressing, but not by way of levels, that is horizontal progression.
Just to elaborate, that progression may or may not come from stronger items. It may just be a wider variety, or more meta, but one way or the other you are still gaining strength and options as a player, which allow you to accomplish more in the end.
NoobieDoo said:I don't want raiding to just be about items with better stats, I want raiding to give ability. I want raiding to be 'other-worldly'. And with this, I want people who raid to be 'other-worldly'. And what I mean is this, if you are in a group with your friends say a pally, a cleric, a monk, enchanter, and a warrior and some random monk joins the group. You and your friends are all max level but have not begun to raid but this random monk has raided....a lot. I want this 'raid' monk to perform more uniquely than the non raid monk. I don't just want their items to have better stats, I want this raid monk to be able to do things that the non raid monk can't. Which in turn would mean raiding doesn't just net you items with better stats (+20 str +20 dex + 100 strikethrough) raiding would net you ability.
Ways this can be done is by raid loot adding more ability than just stats. Items with special abilities such as clickies, or procs, or gives you buffs while item is equipped, or gives you abilities to activate while item is equipped. Another way for this to happen is for raids to drop really unique skills/spells and/or abilities. And another way for this to happen would be for FIRST the necessity of AAs (or some feature akin) and then to have a special section of AAs JUST for raiding where you can only unlock these AAs by raiding.
With all this said, grouping can still give you GREAT gear and items (maybe even the best) but I'd like to think those items being very difficult to get within a single group. AAs can still be had without raiding, I'd just like to see a special section dedicated to raiding, IF something like AAs are implemented. Raiding is a unique atmosphere and should ultimately make your character unique. A raid druid should perform more uniquely than a non raid druid. A raid bard should perform more uniquely than a non raid bard. A non raid bard can be AS strong as a raid bard but the raid bard should be able to do things that the non raid bard can't.
Really cool idea on specific 'Raid AAs'. I wonder if the community would want Raid AAs to unlock powerful skills like you mention or stick to more raid-oriented quality-of-life bonuses like Mass Group Buff and such.
Dullahan said:Mephiles said:Dullahan said:
I really hate to harp on this point, but I have to correct this.
Decidedly not horizontal by whom? No upward/vertical (level based) power gain is involved, thus only power gained by improving what you currently have available to you. There most certainly can be tiers in horizontal progression. What you are describing is no form of progression at all, horizontal or otherwise. Its just rehashed fluff.
It is decidedly not horizontal by logic. Horizontal movement is not upward movement, any increase by tiers therefore makes the system not 'entirely' horizontal at minimum. All due respect but considering you probably have not tried it, don't knock it. I spent years playing the game with this system and it was the MOST compelling itemization in any game I have ever played (and I have played a lot). You want an example of horizontal fluff? Guild Wars 2 does it. The kind of itemization I am talking about is where items are treated more like tools than they are a leveling mechanic. So you earned a screwdriver from that raid? It is awesome and it unscrews stuff. Now we can go do that other piece of content for a hammer, maybe over the weekened we'll get a saw. It most certainly is horizontal progression and my preferred way of handling items (and as I pointed out it lends itself to ensuring that more content remains valid over just the current top raid). I would rather keep vertical progression tied to levels and alternate advancement mechanics.
You should look into Camelot Unchained and what has been announced of EQ Next. Both games have "horizontal progression" systems with tiers. Progression without actual advancement isn't progression at all. If, however, you are progressing, but not by way of levels, that is horizontal progression.
Just to elaborate, that progression may or may not come from stronger items. It may just be a wider variety, or more meta, but one way or the other you are still gaining strength and options as a player, which allow you to accomplish more in the end.
Neither of those have what I am looking for and the highlighted is exactly what I am talking about and is progression in the form of expanding the tools and builds available (in essence expanding your ability rather than being a different form of level progression). I specifically do not want 'tiers' where one tier is inherently better than all below it and using items as a means to continuously increase player power (like item level systems of many modern mmos including everquest next). I want items to be about unique functions and benefits, build defining items if that makes more sense.
Also Im fairly sure you know what I mean when I say tiers but I will clarify just in case. When I say tiers I am talking about raid teirs (like many modern mmos use, WoW for example tier 1-9 sets) not item quality tiers (normal, rare, epic, legendary, etc.), I am ok with different item qualities.
Make raid gear only wearable and useable in raids and you have solved the problem of dininishing group rewards, item inflation and trvializing group / solo content while wearing raid gear. Otherwise, it remains in direct competition against other play styles and in a game that is suppose to focus on core grouping, that can and likely would become a poisonous issue. Look at EQ, started as group centric game, yet it has became a raid or die game in the end. This is not acceptable in niche game that is suppose to focus on small groups.
Dullahan said:Amsai said: @Dullahan I should have modified that with "in my opinion" I read a lot of fantasy novels. When Im playing MMOs I always think of it as an interactive fantasy novel with me adventuring with a group of unlikely heroes. I can think of only one a small few that had the heroes crafring anything. So my perspective is skewed in that direction. Finding loot seems exciting. Making loot feels boring and lackluster. I couldnt change my view if I tried. It just feels more natural anf crafting powerful items seems ridiculous. But thats just me. If the devs decide to go full on crafting Ill just have to play it by ear and see if they can introduce crafting in a non soul crushing slit my wrists kind of way. @Noobie Def a solid idea. With the right ballance and design I could get behind that idea too.An MMO should have far more depth than a book. A book focuses on specigfic characters and the telling of a very specific story. Tiny details like what your favorite shopkeeper likes to eat (to get a discount) or the shady dealings of a certain guard wouldn't come up. In a virtual world however, those little nuances are important.
Crafting may not be fun or important to you, but its still important t. People should remember that it takes all sorts to make a virtual world work. What may seem unappealing to you or me, may be just what someone else out there wants to do. Just as it takes all kinds in real life, there should be different forms of gameplay to accomodate and bring together an audience in such a game as Pantheon. In fact, unlike other games where most people take up a trade, I think the process should be laborious to the average player but rewarding and enjoyable to those who really like that sort of gameplay.
By that same token, the majority of gamers are adventurers and it isn't fair to hold them hostage to another's play style, namely crafting. I don't find it in the least bit rewarding to get a crafting material drop, wait for and pay an outrageous fee to some crafter to make the item I want. Crafters should have their place, but this is first and foremost an adventuring game and you should feel adequately rewarded for doing it. Crafting should offer you an alternative to dropped loot or the ability to add to drops or configure them to better fit your class build. I think where crafting should shine is in the consumbables, such as food, drinks, potions, scrolls, rune stones repairing, color dyes....etc.
Amsai said: But both Mephiles and myself have given you examples. How can you call it no progression? Its gear progression. Its just instead of + atk 5 vs + atk 10 its +atk 5 vs + haste 5. And when building gear sets to make yourself more powerful and versatile in any given situation, it just worked. My Ninja had like 8 regular complete gear sets I actively switched in and out of durring battle. Thats not including 4 to 5 special sets.They took me years to build. And sure every once un a while id replace a piece that was a bit better. But thats still gives you something to build toward as a form of progression. Ill just say the same thing you just told me a couple of posts back. It may not be important or significant to you but it still is to others.
Its not about likes or dislikes, its about words that mean things. Horizontal progression as you are trying to describe it, lacks any notable progress. When you do mention progress, you conceded that it came from a piece of gear that was "better." You're substituting the word content with progression.
Vorthanion said:Make raid gear only wearable and useable in raids and you have solved the problem of dininishing group rewards, item inflation and trvializing group / solo content while wearing raid gear. Otherwise, it remains in direct competition against other play styles and in a game that is suppose to focus on core grouping, that can and likely would become a poisonous issue. Look at EQ, started as group centric game, yet it has became a raid or die game in the end. This is not acceptable in niche game that is suppose to focus on small groups.
Dullahan said:Amsai said: But both Mephiles and myself have given you examples. How can you call it no progression? Its gear progression. Its just instead of + atk 5 vs + atk 10 its +atk 5 vs + haste 5. And when building gear sets to make yourself more powerful and versatile in any given situation, it just worked. My Ninja had like 8 regular complete gear sets I actively switched in and out of durring battle. Thats not including 4 to 5 special sets.They took me years to build. And sure every once un a while id replace a piece that was a bit better. But thats still gives you something to build toward as a form of progression. Ill just say the same thing you just told me a couple of posts back. It may not be important or significant to you but it still is to others.Its not about likes or dislikes, its about words that mean things. Horizontal progression as you are trying to describe it, lacks any notable progress. When you do mention progress, you conceded that it came from a piece of gear that was "better." You're substituting the word content with progression.
That is not accurate, progress can refer to any kind of development even if it isn't further refinement in the same direction. As I had said, aquiring more tools, abilities, refining builds are all progress without directly improving upon a previous point. That doesn't inherently mean you would get no more powerful from the gear you get (you would) but that the power of the gear you aquire would be relatively similar at end game for its difficulty. The other thing to note is that the way this worked was that content did not often drop whole sets and even when it did it didn't drop a whole set of best in slot gear. You might have a best in slot body item from one raid, a best in slot necklace from another and a best in slot weapon from a group content and then you might even have a best in slot ring from crafting (though that isn't to say that there were too many items that were default best in slot overall as it was often situational which items were best for what).
If you people think Pantheon is about RAIDING a top end Dragon, over and over... an aquiring top end gear & done.. Then you are anticipating the wrong game.
Most of you keep using the term raid, or raid gear, when you have no clue what or when you will be in a raid, because it will most likely be spontaneous, or triggered. Thinking that you can go back to the scene of the crime with more people, doesn't mean the same mob will spawn, if ever again. The mickey mouse gameplay many of you are imagining is dry and oldhat. Broaden your minds.
Putting 50 people together, to storm a mob will leave rinse & repeat raid guilds frustrated, when they have no clue where they are going, or if a mob is even spawned.. let alone where it is spawned.
The idea someone want to rinse & repeat their way to a full set of armor is hilarious... ok. But understand, players who take rare drops, and hand them to high end crafter, will have the best armors and gear. Because it not only took a raid for mats, but the best Crafters (other people) to work those mats and use player skill to make magical equipment.
Pantheon is not about items, it is about components..
Mephiles said:Dullahan said:Amsai said: But both Mephiles and myself have given you examples. How can you call it no progression? Its gear progression. Its just instead of + atk 5 vs + atk 10 its +atk 5 vs + haste 5. And when building gear sets to make yourself more powerful and versatile in any given situation, it just worked. My Ninja had like 8 regular complete gear sets I actively switched in and out of durring battle. Thats not including 4 to 5 special sets.They took me years to build. And sure every once un a while id replace a piece that was a bit better. But thats still gives you something to build toward as a form of progression. Ill just say the same thing you just told me a couple of posts back. It may not be important or significant to you but it still is to others.Its not about likes or dislikes, its about words that mean things. Horizontal progression as you are trying to describe it, lacks any notable progress. When you do mention progress, you conceded that it came from a piece of gear that was "better." You're substituting the word content with progression.
That is not accurate, progress can refer to any kind of development even if it isn't further refinement in the same direction. As I had said, aquiring more tools, abilities, refining builds are all progress without directly improving upon a previous point. That doesn't inherently mean you would get no more powerful from the gear you get (you would) but that the power of the gear you aquire would be relatively similar at end game for its difficulty. The other thing to note is that the way this worked was that content did not often drop whole sets and even when it did it didn't drop a whole set of best in slot gear. You might have a best in slot body item from one raid, a best in slot necklace from another and a best in slot weapon from a group content and then you might even have a best in slot ring from crafting (though that isn't to say that there were too many items that were default best in slot overall as it was often situational which items were best for what).
I agree with Siat raid only gear is a bad idea imo. I do think it's weird for the game to be centered around single group content when a raid is just multiple group content. Since that's the case people need to focus in on what raiding is really about. It's about the journey and experience not the gear. If you're playing a game just for gear not just in raiding but also the group content you're playing for the wrong reasons imo. So for pantheon it might entirely be the case that raiding is just about achievement. I don't see it working in any other way so far.
NoobieDoo said:Vorthanion said:Make raid gear only wearable and useable in raids and you have solved the problem of dininishing group rewards, item inflation and trvializing group / solo content while wearing raid gear. Otherwise, it remains in direct competition against other play styles and in a game that is suppose to focus on core grouping, that can and likely would become a poisonous issue. Look at EQ, started as group centric game, yet it has became a raid or die game in the end. This is not acceptable in niche game that is suppose to focus on small groups.
While I like this idea as sort of a 'dress code' for specific raid zones I don't know if I'd like it to hinder players from wearing their hard earned gear in single group content. I mean that is a big reason players like to get this high level difficult-to-get gear, so that they can show it off to others. But this harkens back to what I've said previously. If raid gear gave more ability than it gave just hard cold stats then players who have not raided could still be just as 'strong' as these raid geared players and it wouldn't make group content trivial. Raid gear could just allow classes to play/function MUCH differently than others of that same class.
An example of this (going back to my monk example) is a raid geared monk vs a non-raid geared monk. Let's say that no monk in game would have the ability to tank. NONE whatsoever. The two monks (raid vs non-raid) could then do exactly or close to the same amount of dps it's just that the raid monk WOULD have the ability to tank. Imagine that, you've played your whole career in Pantheon as a monk as a dps class, a 'raid' monk joins your group, and while doesn't necessarily do a whole lot more damage than you he has the skills andn ability to actually tank. THAT IMO is what raids should give to players.
I'd like to see the hardest single group content give you the strongest gear that either does the most damage, heals the most, or protects you the most. And let raid gear alter the way we play. I mean, raids basically alter the way we play the game right?
I disagree with all of this... the last thing I want to see is endgame monks encroaching on other class abilities.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel... Raid gear needs to be rare, hard to obtain, and really ******* good...
The problem is balancing group content so that Raiders can still feel challenged by high end group encounters...
I have an idea that would take extra coding but might be interesting to try... In Vanguard there were situations where if you beat a boss mob in a certain way that was always harder than just beating it normally you would roll on a better loot table.
For instance just a simple example, what if a boss mob was spawned in a room full of fire that damaged you every tick... now if you pull the mob out of the room you get the lower tier loot table but if you fight the mob in the room of fire you get a better loot table.
The cool thing about stuff like this is that it could be kept as a mystery to the players possibly being hinted about by local residents if you asked around.
This is way cooler than just giving a mob /hard mode as it allows for the players to figure out what to do to activate the better loot tables.
Still here adding pennies,
Kiz~
P.S. Hieromonk you so crazy with those ideas...