Amsai said: Noobie your description sounds very similar to wbat we are talking about. And maybe your VG referencees will make more sense to people not familiar with XI. As someone not familiar with EQ or VG maybe your not spot on. Its difficult for me to tell. But it sounds close. @ Dullahan Maybe Im just bad at explaining it and maybe thats coupled with your EQ/VG skew or ignorance of things FFXI. But trust me. All FFXI players would agree that endgame in XI was all about horizontal gear progression. Now understand Im not saying there was no vertical gear progression...
I wasn't talking about "gear progression" specifically, I was talking about vertical vs horizontal player progression. Power gained by leveling up, versus power gained virtually any other way (mostly smaller increases over time). Everyone knows the fastest way to increase character power in an MMO is to level, hence the reason rush to end game became so popular. When I talk about horizontal progression, I mean the much more incremental power gained without leveling. You can call it hybrid if you want to, because stats do get bigger on the armor, its just much more slowly.
I find it interesting that so many people harken back to old EQ, when raiding was rare and raid loot was barely better than most dungeon loot. Yet the raider in the end, completely dominated the game as they demanded more content, bragging rights and gear that made everyone who doesn't do that kind of content to feel inferior and second class. I was hoping for something different with this game, yet the raiders can't seem to help themselves. Most people seek to be rewarded for their efforts and it's unfair to see that skewed in favor of one play style over another, no matter the percieved difficulty. If you pick a target audience, such as core groups, then stick with it and make them the special flowers they deserve to be, don't turn around and give it to raiders instead. Any content can be made to be difficult, raiding does not have a stranglehold on that fact, developers have merely decided in the past to make it that way. What raiders want is no different than making a game about groupers then turning around and giving soloers the best rewards in game. It makes no sense and it insults the intended audience.
Vorthanion said:I find it interesting that so many people harken back to old EQ, when raiding was rare and raid loot was barely better than most dungeon loot. Yet the raider in the end, completely dominated the game as they demanded more content, bragging rights and gear that made everyone who doesn't do that kind of content to feel inferior and second class. I was hoping for something different with this game, yet the raiders can't seem to help themselves. Most people seek to be rewarded for their efforts and it's unfair to see that skewed in favor of one play style over another, no matter the percieved difficulty. If you pick a target audience, such as core groups, then stick with it and make them the special flowers they deserve to be, don't turn around and give it to raiders instead. Any content can be made to be difficult, raiding does not have a stranglehold on that fact, developers have merely decided in the past to make it that way. What raiders want is no different than making a game about groupers then turning around and giving soloers the best rewards in game. It makes no sense and it insults the intended audience.
There is always going to be a part of the player base that dominates the game. If the statistics of 10-15% of players raid are true then it will be the same with group content if they make it difficult enough. Only a small percentage of the player base will see the content and in turn have the bragging rights and gear, which is good and inspires people to become better and adds the "journey" to the game which MMOs need imo. Every game is skewed to a specific audience so all games are unfair in that sense. Seeing that single group content is the focus of the game, max level raid content will most likely be an after thought.
Angrykiz said:NoobieDoo said:Vorthanion said:
I disagree with all of this... the last thing I want to see is endgame monks encroaching on other class abilities.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel... Raid gear needs to be rare, hard to obtain, and really ******* good...
The problem is balancing group content so that Raiders can still feel challenged by high end group encounters...
You seem to be missing the point.First, monks being able to tank wouldn't be encroaching on any other classes because in both EQ and VG they've been able to tank. It's not really that far fetched. But that's not even the point. The point is for raid gear, ALL raid gear, to enhance classes to become more 'special'. That doesn't mean 'make monks tanks'. That was just an example. It means to make a raid monk stand apart from a non raid monk. Whatever that may be. I think if the only difference between a player who is in full raid gear stands next to a player in no raid gear is that they do more damage, then I think the devs would have missed the mark.
And YES, we SHOULD try to reinvent the wheel. I mean unless you want to keep playing the same old games and you want devs to keep making the same old games then the wheel must either be reinvented or we must find a new means of transportation like hovering and flights that requires no wheels. And then just get rid of the wheel.
Amsai said: Also Noobie I want to hear more detail about your example if possible
Vorthanion said:I find it interesting that so many people harken back to old EQ, when raiding was rare and raid loot was barely better than most dungeon loot. Yet the raider in the end, completely dominated the game as they demanded more content, bragging rights and gear that made everyone who doesn't do that kind of content to feel inferior and second class. I was hoping for something different with this game, yet the raiders can't seem to help themselves. Most people seek to be rewarded for their efforts and it's unfair to see that skewed in favor of one play style over another, no matter the percieved difficulty. If you pick a target audience, such as core groups, then stick with it and make them the special flowers they deserve to be, don't turn around and give it to raiders instead. Any content can be made to be difficult, raiding does not have a stranglehold on that fact, developers have merely decided in the past to make it that way. What raiders want is no different than making a game about groupers then turning around and giving soloers the best rewards in game. It makes no sense and it insults the intended audience.
I agree here, if you make this a group centric game then make it GROUP CENTRIC from start to finish...Raids should not be the be all and end all of high level play, that (to me) leads more to the 'The game doesnt start till max level" line of thinking.
I think a great way to bridge the gap between group content and raiding content is simply to offer an exception to the rule without becoming the rule.
Here is an example: Dragon A takes 18-24 players to kill and he drops the Red Dragon scale which can be used by crafters to create a variety (for multiple classes) of raid quality dragonscale armor.
Exception to the rule: There is some rare townsfolk that requests your help for a solo (or even group) quest. After which he rewards you with a family heirloom, the Red Dragon Scale.
Exception to the rule: You're adventuring alone in some forest where Dragon A has been known to wander occasionally. You find the Red Dragon Scale lodged in a burnt tree stump.
As long as the exception to the rule is balanced appropriately, I would actually love to see these types of things in the game.
I don't think it's a good idea to try and reinvent the wheel on this subject... when a topic is this controversial I would like to see them just default to EQ and Vanguard style of raids and group content...
I loved it there and I'm sure it will be the same in Pantheon.
Kiz~
Furor said:I think a great way to bridge the gap between group content and raiding content is simply to offer an exception to the rule without becoming the rule.
Here is an example: Dragon A takes 18-24 players to kill and he drops the Red Dragon scale which can be used by crafters to create a variety (for multiple classes) of raid quality dragonscale armor.
Exception to the rule: There is some rare townsfolk that requests your help for a solo (or even group) quest. After which he rewards you with a family heirloom, the Red Dragon Scale.
Exception to the rule: You're adventuring alone in some forest where Dragon A has been known to wander occasionally. You find the Red Dragon Scale lodged in a burnt tree stump.
As long as the exception to the rule is balanced appropriately, I would actually love to see these types of things in the game.
I agree partially with this example except for some slight adjustments...
A dragon takes 36 people to kill and generally drop 2 pristine dragon scales which can each be made into a custom piece of raid loot... This "pristine" dragon armor would represent the highest form of this armor and would have some extra stats that would bolster a player with a few extra resists and possibly a bit more hit points... A full set of this would prepare you for the final raid of the area you're fighting in.
(exception) Rarely a npc appears that if you are of the appropriate faction will give you a quest for a "burnished" dragon scale... This is a group quest and could take multiple days to complete. Along the quest special mobs spawn with incentive loot for your group members but you know at the end you will recieve the scale for all your efforts... This scale can also be made into high end armor but it doesn't have quite have the luster of the pristine armor. Sporting a bit less stats overall 5-10%.
(exception) O look whats that in the tree stump over there... Ah it's a "cracked" dragon scale, hmm I bet I could have this made into a sweet pair of gloves but surely its not in good enough condition to make that breast plate I always wanted... Once again a bit less stats but still real nice 5-10% less than the "burnished"
This gives each one its own value on the market and still allows players to have some freedom for how they acquire dragon scales.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Vorthanion said:I find it interesting that so many people harken back to old EQ, when raiding was rare and raid loot was barely better than most dungeon loot. Yet the raider in the end, completely dominated the game as they demanded more content, bragging rights and gear that made everyone who doesn't do that kind of content to feel inferior and second class. I was hoping for something different with this game, yet the raiders can't seem to help themselves. Most people seek to be rewarded for their efforts and it's unfair to see that skewed in favor of one play style over another, no matter the percieved difficulty. If you pick a target audience, such as core groups, then stick with it and make them the special flowers they deserve to be, don't turn around and give it to raiders instead. Any content can be made to be difficult, raiding does not have a stranglehold on that fact, developers have merely decided in the past to make it that way. What raiders want is no different than making a game about groupers then turning around and giving soloers the best rewards in game. It makes no sense and it insults the intended audience.
The reason people harken back to EQ1 or VG is because those games did indeed make the single group the "special flower" that you speak of. Virtually every expansion of EQ1 (going on 22nd soon) has been 80-90% group based content. Raid gear just keeps you at the latest expansion's bleeding edge, but the slog to where that edge is...there's the single group to the tune of 90% of your time, even if you are only in the game for the raid game. Each xpac adds like 1-2k new AAXP reqs, 5 levels worth of regular exp, and a pretty serious gear grind before setting foot in a raid zone is something besides insta-dead. Sure, once you accomplish all that, raiding is all you have left, but the population of people in EQ1 who had nothing left to do before the next xpac (around every 9 months since vanilla) other than conquering the next raid boss is less than a couple percent. It's always been that way.
Hell, I did nothing but grind 20-40 hours per week my last stint in the game, and if I resubbed today, I'd need 3-4 months just to be a decently average max level group enchanter/cleric, as in not a liability in a single group due to my gimpness. I'd be grinding content 2-3 xpacs backwards, as the latest xpac stuff follows the standard EQ1 model of "oh no you did not buy our latest content" that punishes the player for having dared actually purchase the new content. And both my main toons are 11k+ AAXP, decked in fully augmented proper gear, etc. And I am just on this side of not being an exp leech and useless.
The group game in EQ1, bottom line, has not changed much. If you have the latest xpac and are doing the group thing, you better have your head on straight, current & proper gear, and know how to play. If not, you need to go backwards a bit and get up to snuff. Been that way since Kunark came out, and it's still that way. Want to move exp bars, advance that toon, get skills? Then get to group grinding and check back in when the whole "hundreds of hours" thing is done.
So yes, people keep harkening back to the EQ1 model because it's the model Brad is talking about. After all, it's a model he designed. Raids and raid loot were there, but the game was, is and will likely always be primarily centered around the single group dynamic. Raid exists now as it did then. It represents the bleeding edge of the latest content, and that's it. I doubt Pantheon ends up vastly different from that model. The game will be designed primarily around the group and various synergies, some raid content will be thrown in, and soloing will hopefully be (as Sevens and I have beaten to death on these forums) something that is almost totally emergent by crafty, brave players who simply like pushing envelopes.
You know...like EQ1. Which through the Velious xpac was as close to perfect as the MMO model of PVE has ever been, raids, raid gear and all.
Read any post by Brad on these forums, and in the end, most of what he says, minus the very cool thing about adding more importance to the environment and the politics/religion/diplomacy stuff, will make you think "oh yeah, like back in vanilla/Kunark/Velious EQ1." So this raid thing is almost purely academic, and the argument largely moot. Raids will be in Pantheon, probably +/- like 10% of how much they were back in Kunark and Velious, and oh yeah, now there's just more variables to the synergy equation. Okie doke, sign me up and let me buy my lifetime subscription right now.
Venjenz said:Vorthanion said:I find it interesting that so many people harken back to old EQ, when raiding was rare and raid loot was barely better than most dungeon loot. Yet the raider in the end, completely dominated the game as they demanded more content, bragging rights and gear that made everyone who doesn't do that kind of content to feel inferior and second class. I was hoping for something different with this game, yet the raiders can't seem to help themselves. Most people seek to be rewarded for their efforts and it's unfair to see that skewed in favor of one play style over another, no matter the percieved difficulty. If you pick a target audience, such as core groups, then stick with it and make them the special flowers they deserve to be, don't turn around and give it to raiders instead. Any content can be made to be difficult, raiding does not have a stranglehold on that fact, developers have merely decided in the past to make it that way. What raiders want is no different than making a game about groupers then turning around and giving soloers the best rewards in game. It makes no sense and it insults the intended audience.
The reason people harken back to EQ1 or VG is because those games did indeed make the single group the "special flower" that you speak of. Virtually every expansion of EQ1 (going on 22nd soon) has been 80-90% group based content. Raid gear just keeps you at the latest expansion's bleeding edge, but the slog to where that edge is...there's the single group to the tune of 90% of your time, even if you are only in the game for the raid game. Each xpac adds like 1-2k new AAXP reqs, 5 levels worth of regular exp, and a pretty serious gear grind before setting foot in a raid zone is something besides insta-dead. Sure, once you accomplish all that, raiding is all you have left, but the population of people in EQ1 who had nothing left to do before the next xpac (around every 9 months since vanilla) other than conquering the next raid boss is less than a couple percent. It's always been that way.
Hell, I did nothing but grind 20-40 hours per week my last stint in the game, and if I resubbed today, I'd need 3-4 months just to be a decently average max level group enchanter/cleric, as in not a liability in a single group due to my gimpness. I'd be grinding content 2-3 xpacs backwards, as the latest xpac stuff follows the standard EQ1 model of "oh no you did not buy our latest content" that punishes the player for having dared actually purchase the new content. And both my main toons are 11k+ AAXP, decked in fully augmented proper gear, etc. And I am just on this side of not being an exp leech and useless.
The group game in EQ1, bottom line, has not changed much. If you have the latest xpac and are doing the group thing, you better have your head on straight, current & proper gear, and know how to play. If not, you need to go backwards a bit and get up to snuff. Been that way since Kunark came out, and it's still that way. Want to move exp bars, advance that toon, get skills? Then get to group grinding and check back in when the whole "hundreds of hours" thing is done.
So yes, people keep harkening back to the EQ1 model because it's the model Brad is talking about. After all, it's a model he designed. Raids and raid loot were there, but the game was, is and will likely always be primarily centered around the single group dynamic. Raid exists now as it did then. It represents the bleeding edge of the latest content, and that's it. I doubt Pantheon ends up vastly different from that model. The game will be designed primarily around the group and various synergies, some raid content will be thrown in, and soloing will hopefully be (as Sevens and I have beaten to death on these forums) something that is almost totally emergent by crafty, brave players who simply like pushing envelopes.
You know...like EQ1. Which through the Velious xpac was as close to perfect as the MMO model of PVE has ever been, raids, raid gear and all.
Read any post by Brad on these forums, and in the end, most of what he says, minus the very cool thing about adding more importance to the environment and the politics/religion/diplomacy stuff, will make you think "oh yeah, like back in vanilla/Kunark/Velious EQ1." So this raid thing is almost purely academic, and the argument largely moot. Raids will be in Pantheon, probably +/- like 10% of how much they were back in Kunark and Velious, and oh yeah, now there's just more variables to the synergy equation. Okie doke, sign me up and let me buy my lifetime subscription right now.
Man, you nailed it in my opinion. I don't read these posts and feel like there is a group of people asking for Pantheon to be a raid game. Quite the opposite. I almost never raided in EQ (like 3 times ever), and I loved the way EQ seperated the two. 90%+ of content is group play with the ability to get high quality gear, and 10% or less is high level raid content with a slightly higher quality gear. The high level raid content is for the people that, inevitably, find a way to dump more time into the game and out level the rest of us, and they need a higher level of content to focus on. We all agree this game won't be a race to max level like other MMO's, but we all know there will be players, who are the exception, that find a way to get ahead of the rest of us and need more content. This is the bleeding edge I think Venjenz is talking about.
It feels like there are people that are threatened by raid content, and I can't quite figure out why. My best guess is that they lived through the WoW era and are scarred based on that experience. Because, if I thought Pantheon was going to be anything like WoW in it's group/Raid balance I would not be a part of this community. I do not want to race to max and then raid to be elite or be subpar to everyone else. I HATED that concept. I almost never raided in EQ, but the mere fact that it exsisted made sense to me, and it always felt necessary to fill a high end content gap, but ultimately the EQ style was almost an exclusively group game for me.
Furor said:I think a great way to bridge the gap between group content and raiding content is simply to offer an exception to the rule without becoming the rule.
Here is an example: Dragon A takes 18-24 players to kill and he drops the Red Dragon scale which can be used by crafters to create a variety (for multiple classes) of raid quality dragonscale armor.
Exception to the rule: There is some rare townsfolk that requests your help for a solo (or even group) quest. After which he rewards you with a family heirloom, the Red Dragon Scale.
Problem here is this makes it too easy, if it is too easy then the gear has to be more marginalized otherwise in 2-3 expansions loot inflation gets to big ala WoW.
Furor said:Exception to the rule: You're adventuring alone in some forest where Dragon A has been known to wander occasionally. You find the Red Dragon Scale lodged in a burnt tree stump.
As long as the exception to the rule is balanced appropriately, I would actually love to see these types of things in the game.
This could be interesting, but only if the chance of it to drop was static, the time window for it was static, and the location was static.
Dreconic said:Problem here is this makes it too easy, if it is too easy then the gear has to be more marginalized otherwise in 2-3 expansions loot inflation gets to big ala WoW.
I definitely agree that in order to work it would have to be done properly. For example: It's a single serverwide NPC that despawns for an extended period of time (Maybe two or three times the spawn length of Dragon A) to purposely keep item deflation down.
I just thought it might be interesting (again, only if done properly) because this would at least lessen the "all or nothing" mentality group players seem to have against raiding.
Sevens said:Vorthanion said:I find it interesting that so many people harken back to old EQ, when raiding was rare and raid loot was barely better than most dungeon loot. Yet the raider in the end, completely dominated the game as they demanded more content, bragging rights and gear that made everyone who doesn't do that kind of content to feel inferior and second class. I was hoping for something different with this game, yet the raiders can't seem to help themselves. Most people seek to be rewarded for their efforts and it's unfair to see that skewed in favor of one play style over another, no matter the percieved difficulty. If you pick a target audience, such as core groups, then stick with it and make them the special flowers they deserve to be, don't turn around and give it to raiders instead. Any content can be made to be difficult, raiding does not have a stranglehold on that fact, developers have merely decided in the past to make it that way. What raiders want is no different than making a game about groupers then turning around and giving soloers the best rewards in game. It makes no sense and it insults the intended audience.
I agree here, if you make this a group centric game then make it GROUP CENTRIC from start to finish...Raids should not be the be all and end all of high level play, that (to me) leads more to the 'The game doesnt start till max level" line of thinking.
NoobieDoo said:I don't believe people here are asking for strictly raid content. We are just discussing what raid loot should be like, what it should consist of, and/or possibly how we are to get it.
You hit the nail on the head with this statement NoobieDoo! Well done. :D
What all loot, raid or otherwise, should be is a proper balance of risk vs reward.
The exception to the rule can be the random uber item that has the 0.01% chance to drop off any mob at a particular level range, which is how I got my first random silly powerful weapon in WoW. Level 42 rogue, just killing scorpions in Uldaman, got a purple dagger drop. 8 years of off-and-on WoW later, it was the only random purple I ever got like that. And all the Auction House BoE purples were like that...just a random 0.01% drop thing spread across 5-10k people on a server. That exception I am fine with.
But common/known drops should always reflect risk/investment vs reward. Whatever takes the most risk and investment should have the best chance at dropping the best gear. That can be single group content, and lots of games have examples, with WoW single group heroic instances being the best example, but AO had single group content of serious difficulty going years before WoW ever came out. Common denominator? When the risk and investment went up, the rewards did as well.
Raids are simply an easy mechanic for implementing that concept. There are tons of other ways to do it though. Chances are good, since he's already mentioned it numerous (countless?) times, Brad & team are thinking in terms of risk vs reward, and like any proper MMO PVE, the best rewards will come to those who take the most risk and put the most on the line. Nothing wrong with that, and plenty right with it.
I replied to Amsai back on page 4, and explained this to him.. Think it fits where you all are going
While yes that is basically what I typed out, but I was more meaning that someone that doesn't want to, or doesn't have the time to raid, should not expect to have as easy access to the best gear possible.
But in truth, I would like to see all gear be available, but the chance of it being dropped be scaled toward the challenge.
Such as a Uber Sword of the Blind Monkey drop .005% of the time of raid level mob A, but has a .0005% chance to drop of dungeon group mob B.
I was never a fan of a certain mob always being responsible for a certain loot, that tends to lead to loot camping. With exception to possible Epic type items that might be specific to a mob, but be so rare there might never be more then 3 on a server throughout it's life.
Fulton said:I replied to Amsai back on page 4, and explained this to him.. Think it fits where you all are going
While yes that is basically what I typed out, but I was more meaning that someone that doesn't want to, or doesn't have the time to raid, should not expect to have as easy access to the best gear possible.
But in truth, I would like to see all gear be available, but the chance of it being dropped be scaled toward the challenge.
Such as a Uber Sword of the Blind Monkey drop .005% of the time of raid level mob A, but has a .0005% chance to drop of dungeon group mob B.
I was never a fan of a certain mob always being responsible for a certain loot, that tends to lead to loot camping. With exception to possible Epic type items that might be specific to a mob, but be so rare there might never be more then 3 on a server throughout it's life.
In general, I think somebody that doesn't have time to invest in raiding should not get the same caliber of equipment as raiders. A certain group encounter that requires substantial coordination and skill level should reward more than a standard xp-grinding group mob, but they're coordinating 1/4 or so of a raid. The risk is so much lower with that much fewer people. Appropriately, the risk vs reward paradigm implies a lower reward for this effort.
Regardless though, the king certainly shouldn't share a loot table with an uber spider or bear; their loot should be a viable piece of equipment the mob has on their person.
We're second guessing the Godfather of MMORPG on a topic that he and his team basically bulls-eyed on their first go in EQ. I'm sure VR will do a superb job of appropriately rewarding players' time investment. VR, just take my money already!
maslo said:We're second guessing the Godfather of MMORPG on a topic that he and his team basically bulls-eyed on their first go in EQ.
Ding ding ding...we have a winner. I'd wring my hands a bit more maybe, but if anyone on the planet can get MMO PVE right, it's Brad & his crew.
maslo said:Fulton said:I replied to Amsai back on page 4, and explained this to him.. Think it fits where you all are going
While yes that is basically what I typed out, but I was more meaning that someone that doesn't want to, or doesn't have the time to raid, should not expect to have as easy access to the best gear possible.
But in truth, I would like to see all gear be available, but the chance of it being dropped be scaled toward the challenge.
Such as a Uber Sword of the Blind Monkey drop .005% of the time of raid level mob A, but has a .0005% chance to drop of dungeon group mob B.
I was never a fan of a certain mob always being responsible for a certain loot, that tends to lead to loot camping. With exception to possible Epic type items that might be specific to a mob, but be so rare there might never be more then 3 on a server throughout it's life.
In general, I think somebody that doesn't have time to invest in raiding should not get the same caliber of equipment as raiders. A certain group encounter that requires substantial coordination and skill level should reward more than a standard xp-grinding group mob, but they're coordinating 1/4 or so of a raid. The risk is so much lower with that much fewer people. Appropriately, the risk vs reward paradigm implies a lower reward for this effort.
I also don't agree on your loot table viewpoint. If you're in a castle zone and want the best loot in the castle, you better believe you're heading straight to the throne room in search of that king (or dungeon in search of that chained-up dragon). I don't think the king should spawn outside of the throne room anywhere else. And being a king, I do want him to only drop certain types of items - majestic plate armor, beastly sword, greaves of peon stomping, crown of whatever, and maybe a paladin-related spell. And if his loot is good enough, heck yea he should be camped (if you don't camp him, I will! :) ). I agree with you that if loot campers do lock down the camp, I would hope the chance of obtaining a specific loot are so low that, like you say, the items are somewhat rare and the level of rarity based on the risk of effort involved. I like the idea of somebody being unique, but one of 3 on the server for a group mob drop? I want a raid item even to be a *bit* more common than 3 per server. Everquest certainly had more than 3 epic weapons per class across the server even within that expansion.Regardless though, the king certainly shouldn't share a loot table with an uber spider or bear; their loot should be a viable piece of equipment the mob has on their person.
We're second guessing the Godfather of MMORPG on a topic that he and his team basically bulls-eyed on their first go in EQ. I'm sure VR will do a superb job of appropriately rewarding players' time investment. VR, just take my money already!
I agree with alot of what you said, but I also think you mis-understand my concept. I am not advocating the same loot be just as easy, or even that it all is available. And surely not that it has the same chance to drop, it would be extremely rare for it to drop from other mobs.
I also don't really care for the concept that only a certain mob drops certain loot, it just leads to people running for that mob and in the end, the biggest strongest groups will end up farming such mobs for loot. Why must the the King only be in the throne room, he should also have a bedroom, study, garden he may wander.
Why would the King not have raid loot, could he not have acquuired such loot during a raid himself? How did that uber spider come across such loot to begin with?
You can look for gold in a mine or in a river, one is an almost guaranteed to acquire you some gold, the other will acquire you many river rocks and maybe just a slight chance for some gold.
Just because something worked well before, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon.
So in order to qualify what level of loot comes from where, I think we need to consider the following: If there should be raiding at all vs if there should just be “hard” group content in place of raiding vs should there be both raiding and hard group content. My assumption is most of the people here will agree that raiding, on one level or another, generally belongs in MMO’s as a staple in content, but I’ve been known to be wrong in the past (once) so we’ll see. So I’ll go further out on the limb I’m already on and land on the middle ground, and say there will be a sizable group of people who say we should have both raiding as well as “hard” mode group content.
Under that grand assumption, the following are my thoughts/concerns relating to Pantheon going the route in which they have both raids and hard group content with the equivalent loot levels.
Hard group mode yielding the same level of items as raiding is where the slope starts to become slippery. So that’s where the question, “What is raid content versus “hard” group content and what are the differences?”
In a non-instanced game there can’t be scaled versions of the same content, since all the content is live and persistent, so how is the “hard” group content determined as such? Do you treat 6-8 man dungeon crawls as a raid by requiring a minimum character level, plus keying and/or faction work to gain admittance? Beyond that the dungeon is effectively just another dungeon, but one that is “hard mode” (higer tier)? I can see that working and allowing for some top level item drops, but my biggest concern is multiple groups of 6-8 meeting up and building a zerglike force to trivialize content. Now we have, essentially, a raid force exploiting the “non-raid” content and being rewarded with top tier itemization. Adding a total player cap per zone totally undermines the entire open persistent world Pantheon offers, so that’s not the answer. Without instancing I’m having a hard time figuring out how the concept of “hard mode” group content is going to work. Fundamentally, I think it’s a really cool idea, but the practicality of having this system gives me concerns.
Additionally, even if VR can find a way of implementing hard mode single group content for top tier itemization, I still think we need to account for the added time sink and level of organization that goes into building a raid as becoming as punitive versus grabbing your solid group of 6-8 guys and running a hard mode dungeon. At that point development has/is wasting time on the development of the unused raid content.
I’m obviously still in the more traditional “old school” raid camp, but I’m all for something new if it can be achieved in a sound way. My fear is trading out the old system for something new brings forth a whole new set of problems. I’d rather have a handful of people with elite gear opposed to mudflation due to trivialized content (see WoW). I’ve stated several times that I was not someone who raided in EQ, but the existence of raiding and it’s top tier gear far from marginalizing my experience, it was the adverse for me as it added mystique and wonder to the world. Knowing there was stuff I had to dream about obtaining was one of the most alluring aspects of EQ/VG and even vanilla WoW.