Furor said:Vorthanion said:As long as raid loot doesn't allow players to trivialize group content or lock out access to content by overpowering anyone who challenges them, I'll be fine with whatever system they design.
If a dungeon takes 6 people to clear regardless of group gear vs. raid gear then the only benefit would be the ability to clear that group dungeon faster... But if we're in raid gear, there would be no point in even clearing the group dungeon to begin with!
I personally would like to see 2-3 raid geared people clear 6 person group dungeon content. Because raid gear should be so difficult to acquire it should be powerful.
If raid gear doesn't help trivialize the group content what is the point of getting raid gear?
You're assuming this is a raiding game and not the group centric game Aradune keeps claiming Pantheon to be.
There could be a lot of things that come from grouping that raiding doesn't offer. For instance, specific items that offer resists or maybe an ability that drops only off mobs indigenous to that specific dungeon. Or a specific piece of armor that grants the mana for said ability. Then there are crafting components for a potentially endless amount of stuff. Then theres quests, so many options there.
Just because raiding has been used in such a way in the past, doesn't mean it has to be the end all be all in Pantheon.
Dullahan said:How could I be unclear about the definition? What I cited was the perfect example of horizontal progression. From 50+ all of the other forms of strengthening your character beyond leveling itself is horizontal. For those at 60, especially during Kunark-Velious, all we had was "sideways" progression through achieving rewards from progressively harder content. There was no exp to get as they level cap did not go up.
Think outside of the box. Just because someone somewhere branded EQ "vertical" doesn't mean that was all there was. Especially during the original team's direction, there was a good deal of content beyond acquiring level based power.
They were responding to what you said about there being a large difference between players at level 60 in one expansion and players at level 60 in another which is decidedly not horizontal. I think you may not be seeing what is being said, which is that gear does not 'increase' in tiers in a horizontal only itemization system. You might have super hard raid x drop super weapon y then down the road they might add a new raid and the items from that raid would be more or less equal in power to the previous raid BUT it would offer different benfits ( say raid 1 drops a chest item that reflects damage while raid 2 drops a chest item that has an additional damage reduction property with neither inherently being a higher tier item).
Again I will go to VGs' system. Griffon Quest do I need to say anymore... you could start solo then moved to group then raid and a lot of none raid guilds needed help to get through group content. Epic. Shadow hound/uni nother great quest. ToT best neck in game till apw. Swamp of remuug great gear quest. Rhaz. Then you had places like trengal keep, skrillen pointe, Dargun's tomb, Lord Tsangs, ant hill, 5Moonshade I thing gear for lvl 30 almost all needed a good group. Vampire hall (hillsbury manor). There was an epic weapon quest that no one ever finished cause it was never fully implemented. So many that I have forgot a bunch.
I think you could make group quest similar to Griffon Quest in VG without the raid and get good gear from it just like griffon quest. Some of those fights where epic with just a group and they had descent stuff. I do like how they implemented crafting and diplo in VG and some needed groups and raids to do some of the stuff and the high end gear in APW was crafted and you had to key your diplos and crafters so they could get in there and craft and diplo.
It was also fun camping to me with bad drop rates on good gear from named in VG cause usually there was more than 1 camping the same mob trying to get another drop off it usually got you to group with them so you both had a better chance of survival and you learn good from bad people. I don't mind crafters making good stuff but loots need to be as good from drops the pendilum can't swing to far one way or another.
If you read any fantasy books most treasure and good weapons come from going through the pile of loot under the dead dragons body and usually you go in with good equipment but it is whits, luck, and good powerful friends that get you the kill.
The problem becomes that if you can't beat the group content without the raid gear then the raiders will have an advantage anyways.
I don't want the raid and the group progression to be seperated really.
If you make group content max difficulty just as few people will attempt and complete it as the difficult raid content... probably about 15%.
I guess what I would like to see would be a couple best in slot type items would be group content and a couple would be extreme quest content like epics. While most of the best gear come from raiding.
On the other hand grouping should give tons of exp if done properly and even at max level this should go into some kind of AA pool. Raiding should cost tons of exp through experimental deaths and such, also the repair costs of raiding should be high.
Raiding should be where you expend your guilds resources on consumables and members losing exp and all that stuff... Raiding should be a sacrifice and grouping should be where you earn it all back.
Using the golden mob system I spoke about earlier you could have groups that work toward a long quest where the reward is a token to spawn a raid mob. This raid mob could only be engaged by the raid group that paid the token.
With this kind of system players will group when its not raid time in order to be prepared for the raid creating a sweet spot hopefully where 75% group time "pays" for your 25% raid time.
What's that ? This week you didn't have time to earn back those levels you lost on the raid... well guess you can't come with then because if you delevel you're not gonna be much help.
Anyhow thanks for reading my ramble,
Kiz~
Furor said:I personally would like to see 2-3 raid geared people clear 6 person group dungeon content. Because raid gear should be so difficult to acquire it should be powerful.
If raid gear doesn't help trivialize the group content what is the point of getting raid gear?
(emphasis mine)
Nothing wrong with staying group centric and still having raids and raid gear. EQ1 did that just fine, where the majority of the content was geared to the single group. The raid game, as Brad already mentioned, was only played by like 10-15% of the playerbase, and played WELL by less than 5% IMHO. The folks who played the raid game well didn't really bother with group content until next xpac or doing backflagging/guild itemization chores, because their gear did, and should have, trivialized a lot of the group game. Beyond the random oddly specific item, like the froglok crown and the silly resists it had for ToV, the raid guilds stuck to the goals...raiding and farming the silly gear.
But Furor is absolutely right. If the gear acquired in an event/zone that requires 50+ to even survive is not powerful enough to trivialize single group content, what's the point of having raids in your game? "Sense of achievement" might sound noble and fluffy and all that, but end of the day, the banging one's head against the wall 100x that is the raid game only happens if there is a proper carrot at the end of that stick, and it really ought to be the Uber Carrot of L33tness. While the item may indeed seem "game breaking" to the folks who never go beyond the single group, it's is just the next step in gear in a raid zone.
As far as a loot table decision goes, whether it gets randomized, raid badge/token-ized, or whatever, the most essential thing for raid loot is to make sure that every class outside the holy trinity classes has loot at the same stages the trinity classes do, otherwise the off-classes will rarely or never see their raid loot. Don't put off-class loot 3 bosses past where cleric/warrior/enchanter loot drops, or a whole lot of players will wait a long time before ever getting to their class loot, and yes, I am talking to you Magician epic 1.0 and the only reason anyone every went past the 5th island in Plane of Sky. Huge flaw in the design of loot tables there, imho. Just make sure whatever anyone needs comes before or at the same place warriors, clerics and enchanters get it. A lot less griping will pollute the forums that way.
EDIT - and silly raid gear serves a very important purpose. The FoH's of the game go out and get it, they screenshot it for everyone to drool over on Allakhazam, and all those single groupers and soloers start dreaming about if they had that same Epic Item of Straight Badassery...and they keep playing for many months as they chase that particular pot of gold. The Allakhazam screenshot has as much to do with EQ1's longevity as anything else, and I'd say it matters the most on that score.
I don't want another EQ, I want something better, something that focuses on the core group game and not raiding like every other tom, dick and harry MMO out there. Please stick to your guns Aradune. Too many games that chose one path eventually caved to a vocal minority and usually not to the benefit of the game's health or target audience. If you put the majority of the best rewards into raids, then grouping becomes superflous and second class. The focus becomes the end game instead of the journey. If you were to make a carbon copy of EQ or VG like some of these posters want, then I think it would be a huge mistake and a lost opportunity to create something with a fresh twist on an old paradigm. If there can't be a happy medium, then get rid of raiding altogether and create a game that has some very disctint differences from the plethora of MMOs out there.
Like Venjenz said, raiders tend to raid and do very little group content. And when they do, thier raid gear should make group content easy for them.
But at the same time, group content should provide good gear for those that wish to focus on group content (But the gear isn't on the same level as raid gear, as it shouldn't be). Not everyone is looking to get into raiding. Many enjoy the smaller groups, play for a few hours and call it a night. Alot of us can no longer spend 8-10 hours raiding every night, we want to play, have some fun and we're fine with it.
There is nothing keeping anyone from getting raid gear otehr than themselves or their time constraints. If you want raid quality gear, but aren't willing able to put in the time/effort, then maybe you're in the wrong game, or approaching you're play style wrong.
The world is full of "everyone is equal, no matter how much or how little effort they put in" mentallity. Let's not have it invade our games too. :)
@Vorthanion - Note where I point out that even in EQ1 now, as with EQ1 of old and Vanguard, the vast majority of the game was geared around the single group. Yes, there are raids and the loot that comes with them, but that is a small chunk of the game because it's a small chunk of the playerbase. Every server had one, sometimes two proper raid guilds who represented maybe 5% of that server's playerbase at most. That's why then and now, the game is designed around the single group, but some encounters/zones are designed around multiple groups with one goal.
Let Kunark and Velious be the guide, as they were almost perfect MMO PVE. Some of the hardest raid content ever, relative to the game's lifecycle, but tons and tons and tons of solo, single group, tradeskill and lore content that was the overwhelming majority of both xpacs.
Example - Jaelen's Katana resulted in half the EQ world going nuts over warriors who "trivialized everything with the uber sword" and all that, but almost a year after release of Velious, maybe a half dozen players across the entire game had the weapon that apparently wrecked everything. During all that shrieking about raid loot, hardly anyone mentioned what a guild killing Vula Aerr took in terms of grinding, deaths, lost exp, time spent gearing, etc. There was also no mention of the fact that in game terms, it was only 60% higher DPS than a Short Sword of Ykesha, AKA, a sword a single group could farm inside of an hour and equip on a level 1 toon.
If Furor posting here is "the" Furor, I'll let him explain what the first Vulak Aerr kill took in terms of time and effort for the top raid guild in EQ, and then we can compare that to the hour it took to farm the SSoY off the ghoul lord (whose buddy the frenzied ghoul probably already gave you an FBSS to give you 40% perma haste). Compare each item with the actual time/effort investment that it took to get them, and you'll see why most people including myself hardly ever raid, because unless you have that alpha, top dog kind of mentality on achievements, most raid loot is absolutely not worth it in terms of what proper raid play requires. My guild did Vulak....during the tail end of the Luclin xpac, and it was still a wipefest. Same for most guilds.
Bottom line, this is a conversation that used to be silly and still is. If the leveling curve & itemization is properly built around the single group model, along with the majority of the content, then raid loot is nothing more than screenshots on Allakhazam meant as carrot on a stick, because most folks won't come anywhere near it until 5 xpacs later. If in the meantime, a half dozen or so people have some Uber Sword of Pure Win...who cares? You'll never see them in any zone you're in because they're doing harder content.
But the game has to have the harder content and the loot appropriate to it. If that challenege isn't there, tradeskilling to max and NPC interactions will soon lose their luster as epic achievements.
Mephiles said:Dullahan said:How could I be unclear about the definition? What I cited was the perfect example of horizontal progression. From 50+ all of the other forms of strengthening your character beyond leveling itself is horizontal. For those at 60, especially during Kunark-Velious, all we had was "sideways" progression through achieving rewards from progressively harder content. There was no exp to get as they level cap did not go up.
Think outside of the box. Just because someone somewhere branded EQ "vertical" doesn't mean that was all there was. Especially during the original team's direction, there was a good deal of content beyond acquiring level based power.
They were responding to what you said about there being a large difference between players at level 60 in one expansion and players at level 60 in another which is decidedly not horizontal. I think you may not be seeing what is being said, which is that gear does not 'increase' in tiers in a horizontal only itemization system. You might have super hard raid x drop super weapon y then down the road they might add a new raid and the items from that raid would be more or less equal in power to the previous raid BUT it would offer different benfits ( say raid 1 drops a chest item that reflects damage while raid 2 drops a chest item that has an additional damage reduction property with neither inherently being a higher tier item).
I really hate to harp on this point, but I have to correct this.
Decidedly not horizontal by whom? No upward/vertical (level based) power gain is involved, thus only power gained by improving what you currently have available to you. There most certainly can be tiers in horizontal progression. What you are describing is no form of progression at all, horizontal or otherwise. Its just rehashed fluff.
@Amsai - yes, Brad is quite clear that he wants a group centric game...like EQ1 and Vanguard were. Fastest way to do that, which he alludes to in the post you reference, is getting rid of the dungeon finder tool that removes both the community formation and travel component that a group centric game seeks. Raids are not what wrecks the group game. Like Brad said in that post, you're talking about something maybe, on the best day, 15% of your playerbase ever does, and that activity is a larger version of the group centric dynamic. Next fastest way is get rid of every class being able to solo.
Remove those two things from your group themed game, and raids are just one of many goals for whatever group you end up being part of. That's how raiding is relevant. It's the harder (ultimate?) extension of grouping, and without raid finder tools or everyone being able to solo to max level, it would necessarily depend on community to even exist.
Brad already touched on both points. They are not planning P:RotF as a soloers paradise, nor do they seem to be fans of all the anti-community convenience mechanics popular to current day MMOs. Circa 2001 EQ1 had it about right. Top shelf raiding didn't just happen. You earned your way up the ranks in groups, and back in the day, the "treadmill" people who did the same 5 outdoor camps to get from 10-60 were easy to spot in the real group game, and their reputations suffered for it. My first serious guild invite came from someone who remembered me from LGuk and Seb exp grinding, and her guild needed two more enchanters. My best friend ended up in one of the top guilds across all the servers same way.
I’m personally with Venjenz on this one. The term “best” is being thrown around quite a bit on this thread as it pertains to gear, but I feel like we need to add a qualifier to that. There should be a difference between a piece of gear that most of the people on the server are not going to have a chance to obtain (not for a while anyways) due to it being a rare drop from an extremely hard raid zone, and a piece of top end gear that is more reasonably achievable from a really capable 6-8 person group.
So because we know sword of awesomesauce exists we HAVE to be able to have it or our character is gimp? I, for one, never really had the chance to raid much in EQ, but I do remember people having very rare pieces of gear from raiding. All that did for me was add more awe into the game world. I was always trying to improve my character, and I never felt like I didn’t have more work to do. Knowing the ceiling was extremely high and I was nowhere near it was the carrot I needed to constantly have a fire burning. 90% of my game time was spent grouping, and I loved it. Really hard to get rare raid gear was what made me what to find a good guild and group up to develop my character, but raiding was very little of how I actually spent my time.
I never managed to get my hands much of the top tier rare raid loot, but I managed to have more hours logged than I am proud to admit running group dungeons. So I’m all for top end raid gear being for the most part the best gear in the game. I just hope it is very hard to obtain. As long as I know that group content can provide me with lots of gear options to be competitive and capable they have my money.
@Amsai - I think again, EQ1 is a good guide. Most of the raiders "ready to raid" checklist came from single group content. And raid gear such as it was didn't represent god-mode so much as "with this gear, we can do Boss_01 with 48 people instead of 54 or 60." It isn't until stupid crazy mudflation that gear trivialized old content. Back in the day, having all the crazy loot from NToV and Sleepers just meant you stood a better chance not to get ROFLstomped during the next encounter.
And again, the two games we are always referencing back to already were group centric for the vast majority of the overall content. Even EQ1's outdoor EZ-mode camps needed either very capable, competent soloers or a decent little group. "/lfg orc1" ring any bells? That was THE game. And raiding had most of the best-in-slot items, but as Furor already wrote, it should have. If UberRaidBoss_01 is the toughest challenge in the game, then let whatever that encounter drops be the best in slot item. No reason that group content or even tradeskill content can't come close, but as Brad said, always manage RISK with reward. Hours spent logged in is not risk, not like a raid. So I can see having top end group/tradeskill gear be comparable maybe, but raid gear should always be best in slot, even if only by a couple %. The many downsides that come with raiding make no sense otherwise.
Aradune said:That said, data says that only 10-15% of players actively raid. So while, as stated, we will have raid encounters, and we will reward players for beating raid encounters with some nice drops, if that was the only way to get the best loot we would be going against our vision of creating a game mostly about grouping, with solo and raid content secondary. So one of the many things we are thinking through and theory crafting about is how to create group encounters that drop great loot as well. Crafting will play a part, and we have other ideas too, many of which will need to be tested and tweaked with during alpha and beta.
I think there are more shades of grey of what Brad said than you may be considering.
There are two big things I've heard the dev team reiterate. The first can be hinted at several times in Brad’s post on page two, and that’s that they are going to test different approaches and make a decision based on those results. And the second thing Brad stated was that raiding would not be the ONLY way to get the best gear in the game. For me that implies that raiding will still be tied to the top tier gear, but there will be other alternatives as well. Which I’m personally fine with, and even hoping for to an extent.
Until we know more (the dev team still doesn’t have these details either) we have to patiently wait. One of the things I respect the most about this community is that we are, for the most part, able to have productive dialogue about what we want. The dev team knows this and has the hard job of trying to strike the best balance.
From my perspective this is all positive, and has the potential to help development find that balance.
While my post could probably end with /agree Venjenz, I'll share a few thoughts that really aren't unique and will most likely be in a Brad McQuaid game anyway.
I agree with the Risk vs. Reward gear theory and Raid gear should award always award the best in slot items and also that time played/spent/invested does not always equal risk, but I also think that time invested should not be ignored and that group gear can still be "good" without having to trivialize raid gear, but appropriate timesinks or gates would have to be implemented. I know I will be one that groups nearly 99% of the time in Pantheon, but I still want raid gear to to be the best. It all comes back to expectations again. Just because you don't have the best in slot item doesn't mean that you can't be the best at your class - the expectation that I "have" to have the best piece of gear as quick as everyone else has to change. A casual grouper "could" get that raid item, it just might take 2 expansions down the line once content becomes more trivialized by itemization. The Allakazham carrot example that Venjenz so eloquently described is one of the major reasons EQ worked. With that said...
Most of the time, raids take a lot of time invested in addition to to the challenging content. So, I think there's 5 methods that could be used (are used) to act as gates or timesinks in order to provide a challenge to groups, a feeling of accomplishment for a 6-man grouper, while also not making raiders /ragequit that their gear is not powerful enough compared to the group gear for their time invested/challenge of content.
1. Many Raids offer multiple slots of best in slot items for classes (full set of gear - breastplate,legs, arms, bracers, etc.) during the same raid zone. Have the hardest group content offer a similar "best in slot" item, not quite up to raid quality, but only offer one or two slots for the class per zone. EQ1 was good a this by having best in slot pieces for each class across a variety of zones; therefore, it took groups a long time to achieve the "best" gear.
2. Have the best group gear be a part of an "epic" questline with the epic questline's 6 man group rewards being best-in group type level. A 12 man "raid" line that could be after the completion of the 6 man group (2 - 6 man guild groups) that could be Tier 1 raid quality, and then have a full raid portion of the epic questline (Similar to a EQ Prayer Shawl Questline). That way, all levels of gamers could be satisfied.
3. Have best in group items locked behind faction work. And, I don't mean just mindless /kill 100 evil dwarves at +1 good dwarf faction. It could involve Killing a named/Dungeons/quests/languages/ lore/travel/exploration, etc. that make a group immersed and the world feel larger. I think this was the intent being the "rights of passage" quests that were discussed a long time ago, but I don't think they should be a requirement for character progression and they need to feel organic and not just a simple "I have to do this to get the best items."
4. Have best group items locked behind "keyed" zones or progression. Similar to a raid progression, it should take the most skilled 6 man groups to be able to tackle the hardest group content.
5. Have tradeskills be revelant and not an afterthought. Crafting gear shouldn't = raid gear, but the best crafted gear could be of the highest quality at each level (group, raid, etc.) from drops/ores/etc. found at each content level. Crafting shouldn't be EZmode to reach max level either. A Grandmaster crafter "should" be rare.
Again, most of these ideas are not unique and are built in gameplay/immersion timesinks to make the best group gear more time-consuming to obtain, but, all could be fit within the "2 hour playtime" time constraints. I'd argue that it's impossible for group content to meet the "challenge" of a 25-30 man required raid, but, it can meet the estimated time required (or even surpass the budgeted raid time).
Although, I hope some current content is impossible for only but the best skilled 6-man groups (without having to have raid gear). And, I also hope the best of the best 6-man groups can hold down content meant for more (not raid level more, but maybe 6-8). Some of what I enjoyed the most in EQ was pushing the limits/capabilities of my perma 6-man groups.
Venjenz said:Furor said:I personally would like to see 2-3 raid geared people clear 6 person group dungeon content. Because raid gear should be so difficult to acquire it should be powerful.
If raid gear doesn't help trivialize the group content what is the point of getting raid gear?
(emphasis mine)
Nothing wrong with staying group centric and still having raids and raid gear. EQ1 did that just fine, where the majority of the content was geared to the single group. The raid game, as Brad already mentioned, was only played by like 10-15% of the playerbase, and played WELL by less than 5% IMHO. The folks who played the raid game well didn't really bother with group content until next xpac or doing backflagging/guild itemization chores, because their gear did, and should have, trivialized a lot of the group game. Beyond the random oddly specific item, like the froglok crown and the silly resists it had for ToV, the raid guilds stuck to the goals...raiding and farming the silly gear.
But Furor is absolutely right. If the gear acquired in an event/zone that requires 50+ to even survive is not powerful enough to trivialize single group content, what's the point of having raids in your game? "Sense of achievement" might sound noble and fluffy and all that, but end of the day, the banging one's head against the wall 100x that is the raid game only happens if there is a proper carrot at the end of that stick, and it really ought to be the Uber Carrot of L33tness. While the item may indeed seem "game breaking" to the folks who never go beyond the single group, it's is just the next step in gear in a raid zone.
As far as a loot table decision goes, whether it gets randomized, raid badge/token-ized, or whatever, the most essential thing for raid loot is to make sure that every class outside the holy trinity classes has loot at the same stages the trinity classes do, otherwise the off-classes will rarely or never see their raid loot. Don't put off-class loot 3 bosses past where cleric/warrior/enchanter loot drops, or a whole lot of players will wait a long time before ever getting to their class loot, and yes, I am talking to you Magician epic 1.0 and the only reason anyone every went past the 5th island in Plane of Sky. Huge flaw in the design of loot tables there, imho. Just make sure whatever anyone needs comes before or at the same place warriors, clerics and enchanters get it. A lot less griping will pollute the forums that way.
EDIT - and silly raid gear serves a very important purpose. The FoH's of the game go out and get it, they screenshot it for everyone to drool over on Allakhazam, and all those single groupers and soloers start dreaming about if they had that same Epic Item of Straight Badassery...and they keep playing for many months as they chase that particular pot of gold. The Allakhazam screenshot has as much to do with EQ1's longevity as anything else, and I'd say it matters the most on that score.
The game you are describing seems very 2005'ish..
Loot tables..? Make sure specific mobs drops specific things for every class... etc. (All fisher price sh!t.)
In Pantheon, you wear what you find... you do not look on a menu of what you want, then go get it.. lol. You are playing inside a Story World, not a theme park. Animals in dungeons are not laid out for you... they are in their dwellings and we are seeking them out. What armors they drop do not matter. If you can use good, if not sell or trade. The reason for being there is the adventure. The treasure you find is a bonus.
If you find a mob so tough you need 30 people and can survive, you deserve his wealth. The mere fact you show up to a raid, is not enough. Having the best equipment u can have, means nothing if you can not figure out how to kill a mob. Teamwork & preparation are as vital as equipment.
All this talk about raid equipment is childish and so 2005.. Raiding will be the easy way to get high-end gear. The best gear will be Grand Master Player made from RARE materials found & fought for, in the world. Not handed to you on a platter, for repeatedly killing the same mob.
Raid gear means nothing... there is just gear.
Raiding might just bring BIG coin & gems. Certain guilds will want their own Guild Hall, those will cost a few million Plat. There is more depth to Pantheon, than just raid gear.
Hieromonk said:Venjenz said:Furor said:I personally would like to see 2-3 raid geared people clear 6 person group dungeon content. Because raid gear should be so difficult to acquire it should be powerful.
If raid gear doesn't help trivialize the group content what is the point of getting raid gear?
(emphasis mine)
Nothing wrong with staying group centric and still having raids and raid gear. EQ1 did that just fine, where the majority of the content was geared to the single group. The raid game, as Brad already mentioned, was only played by like 10-15% of the playerbase, and played WELL by less than 5% IMHO. The folks who played the raid game well didn't really bother with group content until next xpac or doing backflagging/guild itemization chores, because their gear did, and should have, trivialized a lot of the group game. Beyond the random oddly specific item, like the froglok crown and the silly resists it had for ToV, the raid guilds stuck to the goals...raiding and farming the silly gear.
But Furor is absolutely right. If the gear acquired in an event/zone that requires 50+ to even survive is not powerful enough to trivialize single group content, what's the point of having raids in your game? "Sense of achievement" might sound noble and fluffy and all that, but end of the day, the banging one's head against the wall 100x that is the raid game only happens if there is a proper carrot at the end of that stick, and it really ought to be the Uber Carrot of L33tness. While the item may indeed seem "game breaking" to the folks who never go beyond the single group, it's is just the next step in gear in a raid zone.
As far as a loot table decision goes, whether it gets randomized, raid badge/token-ized, or whatever, the most essential thing for raid loot is to make sure that every class outside the holy trinity classes has loot at the same stages the trinity classes do, otherwise the off-classes will rarely or never see their raid loot. Don't put off-class loot 3 bosses past where cleric/warrior/enchanter loot drops, or a whole lot of players will wait a long time before ever getting to their class loot, and yes, I am talking to you Magician epic 1.0 and the only reason anyone every went past the 5th island in Plane of Sky. Huge flaw in the design of loot tables there, imho. Just make sure whatever anyone needs comes before or at the same place warriors, clerics and enchanters get it. A lot less griping will pollute the forums that way.
EDIT - and silly raid gear serves a very important purpose. The FoH's of the game go out and get it, they screenshot it for everyone to drool over on Allakhazam, and all those single groupers and soloers start dreaming about if they had that same Epic Item of Straight Badassery...and they keep playing for many months as they chase that particular pot of gold. The Allakhazam screenshot has as much to do with EQ1's longevity as anything else, and I'd say it matters the most on that score.
The game you are describing seems very 2005'ish..
Loot tables..? Make sure specific mobs drops specific things for every class... etc. (All fisher price sh!t.)
In Pantheon, you wear what you find... you do not look on a menu of what you want, then go get it.. lol. You are playing inside a Story World, not a theme park. Animals in dungeons are not laid out for you... they are in their dwellings and we are seeking them out. What armors they drop do not matter. If you can use good, if not sell or trade. The reason for being there is the adventure. The treasure you find is a bonus.
If you find a mob so tough you need 30 people and can survive, you deserve his wealth. The mere fact you show up to a raid, is not enough. Having the best equipment u can have, means nothing if you can not figure out how to kill a mob. Teamwork & preparation are as vital as equipment.All this talk about raid equipment is childish and so 2005.. Raiding will be the easy way to get high-end gear. The best gear will be Grand Master Player made from RARE materials found & fought for, in the world. Not handed to you on a platter, for repeatedly killing the same mob.
Raid gear means nothing... there is just gear.
Raiding might just bring BIG coin & gems. Certain guilds will want their own Guild Hall, those will cost a few million Plat. There is more depth to Pantheon, than just raid gear.
Heiromonk, it sounds like the presumptions you have based on the way YOU want Pantheon to play are starting to get the better of you. I for one don't really like a lot of the visions you're presenting. I’m all for open forum conversations on what you’d like to see, but I think people would be a smidge more open to your view of the game if you didn’t attempt to downgrade other people’s ideas by calling them “Fisher price sh!t” etc…
I happen to fall on the opposite end of the spectrum than you as it relates to crafting. I preferred the way EQ approached crafting opposed to a game that decided to have most top end gear player crafted, SWG comes to mind. While I definitely think there is room for powerful player crafted items, that doesn’t mean it needs to be top tier end game gear. For crafted items I like the idea of lower level gear as well as consumables. I've never been a big crafter, and I have never liked the idea that I HAD to have crafted items.
There is a middle ground here, but please be aware that you speaking of the game as it’s a complete project that you understand above the rest of us (based on your own desires) detracts from your points in most cases.
Amsai said: @venjenz Cant argue with anything you are saying. However, my point was the other thing he said which it seems to have been ignored. The focus is the small group experience not solo and not raid. And smaller group content will have the best gear. So the question he asks is how to keep raiding relevant. That what I read. I didnt read anything in that post suggesting that they wanted only raiding to have the best gear. Thats why I suggested Fulton go back and read it. Because his post focussed on wanting raid to be the only way to get best gear.
While yes that is basically what I typed out, but I was more meaning that someone that doesn't want to, or doesn't have the time to raid, should not expect to have as easy access to the best gear possible.
But in truth, I would like to see all gear be available, but the chance of it being dropped be scaled toward the challenge.
Such as a Uber Sword of the Blind Monkey drop .005% of the time of raid level mob A, but has a .0005% chance to drop of dungeon group mob B.
I was never a fan of a certain mob always being responsible for a certain loot, that tends to lead to loot camping. With exception to possible Epic type items that might be specific to a mob, but be so rare there might never be more then 3 on a server throughout it's life.
Hope that was explained in an understandable manner. :)