Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PantheonPlus Joppa Interview Stream

    • 487 posts
    March 31, 2020 1:10 PM PDT
    If these things were addressed, they wouldn't need to be discussed. You know when women drop subtle hints and men never read into them...well here we are blatantly putting lists out, well past the subtle phase.
    • 487 posts
    March 31, 2020 1:27 PM PDT
    Just to add on -
    Ben Dean said:
    Moving our internal target dates means we have to improve our communications too, to bring you more of the information you seek, and to demonstrate our progress.

    This was stated October 2019.
    • 1785 posts
    March 31, 2020 2:28 PM PDT

    Fragile said: Just to add on -
    Ben Dean said: Moving our internal target dates means we have to improve our communications too, to bring you more of the information you seek, and to demonstrate our progress.
    This was stated October 2019.

     

    A stream every 2 weeks (except postponed due to situation) isn't "more communication" to you ?

    • 22 posts
    March 31, 2020 2:48 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    A stream every 2 weeks (except postponed due to situation) isn't "more communication" to you ?

    The effort spent on the streams could have been better used on updating the website. Looking at the team page one might think that Brad is directing the game from his grave.


    This post was edited by Tabian at March 31, 2020 2:48 PM PDT
    • 38 posts
    April 1, 2020 5:59 AM PDT

    Instead of guessing why don't you look at a game that has already both (LAS and (too) long cooldowns) ?

    This poster already got exactly what happens :

    Iksar said:

    You live in a fantasy land if you think LAS provides more group teamwork, especially while IN combat. 

    LAS means your group will have figured out the tools needed to bring and know "I am using these 8-12" (where 5 or 6 are likely core/bread and butter that never really leave their bars), no need to worry and less need to communicate beyond this. The individuals know their "job(s)" in the group/fight. 

     

    In TESO you have LAS (only 2x5) and long cooldowns and the community found a universal answer which covers almost all fights and needs only 3 skills : taunt, DPS and DPS. Mobs which do little DPS are ignored and mobs which do high DPS are burned down. All it takes is a tank who can taunt and survive the time the DPS burn down everything. There are actually guilds that do not accept members if they a) are not a tank or b) have DPS below a fixed value.

    So, indeed, there is little teamwork (other than the necessary assist) and there is indeed a very low proportion of available skills that are actually used on a bar (5-6 is the right guess). So you have so called "meta-bars" that everybody is using and that simply maximize a) the tank survivability when taunting and b) the max DPS. Everything else is a (useless) option just for the lolz. The end result is anything but a "dynamical" fight.

    Anyway as there doesn't exist a game with a real AI yet and VR has neither the competence nor the money to develop one, LAS or UAS ultimately don't matter.

    Fights in MMO are ALWAYS a competition against a script and people should not confuse RANDOMNESS included in a script with IMPREDICTABILITY which only a real AI could provide thus creating really dynamical fights that would need intelligence and constant adaptation in order to survive.

    • 866 posts
    April 1, 2020 6:26 AM PDT

    At the end of the day it comes down to whatever the Devs decide.  I'm hoping they have a flexible LAS comparable to the number of skills that would "reasonably" be needed and available at "most" times to a particular class, but that is asking a lot.  (i.e. perhaps a Summoner at max level would have more ability slots available than say a monk).

    Whatever the Devs decide on this one will be one of the largest contributing factors to the success or failure of the game (moreso than pretty graphics or new mechanics like perception/progeny that ultimately don't affect the day to day gameplay).  I don't envy the choices they have to make here, but I hope they get it right.

    • 1707 posts
    April 1, 2020 8:10 AM PDT

    lutorin said:

    Instead of guessing why don't you look at a game that has already both (LAS and (too) long cooldowns) ?

    This poster already got exactly what happens :

    Iksar said:

    You live in a fantasy land if you think LAS provides more group teamwork, especially while IN combat. 

    LAS means your group will have figured out the tools needed to bring and know "I am using these 8-12" (where 5 or 6 are likely core/bread and butter that never really leave their bars), no need to worry and less need to communicate beyond this. The individuals know their "job(s)" in the group/fight. 

    In TESO you have LAS (only 2x5) and long cooldowns and the community found a universal answer which covers almost all fights and needs only 3 skills : taunt, DPS and DPS. Mobs which do little DPS are ignored and mobs which do high DPS are burned down. All it takes is a tank who can taunt and survive the time the DPS burn down everything. There are actually guilds that do not accept members if they a) are not a tank or b) have DPS below a fixed value.

    So, indeed, there is little teamwork (other than the necessary assist) and there is indeed a very low proportion of available skills that are actually used on a bar (5-6 is the right guess). So you have so called "meta-bars" that everybody is using and that simply maximize a) the tank survivability when taunting and b) the max DPS. Everything else is a (useless) option just for the lolz. The end result is anything but a "dynamical" fight.

    Anyway as there doesn't exist a game with a real AI yet and VR has neither the competence nor the money to develop one, LAS or UAS ultimately don't matter.

    Fights in MMO are ALWAYS a competition against a script and people should not confuse RANDOMNESS included in a script with IMPREDICTABILITY which only a real AI could provide thus creating really dynamical fights that would need intelligence and constant adaptation in order to survive.

    There was a lot to like in TESO, but one of the major factors that lead me to stop playing was the lack of variety in combat. I don't care if the LAS was supposed to make it more challenging, it was boring. So little variety. I was constantly wishing I could load more skills until I gave up.

    I'm not saying what VR has planned sounds like it will be that restrictive, though, and I think there will be other mitigating factors, but yeah, TESO suffered horribly from *its* LAS.

    I suspect they did it to allow console play, to the great detriment of the game.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 1, 2020 8:11 AM PDT
    • 1347 posts
    April 1, 2020 8:22 AM PDT

    Yep, TESO is a great example of the UI driving combat design (instead of the other way around).  When try it now (I tried to go back within the past year, couldn't do it) the only thing that kept me from playing was the LAS UI.  I could get past the rest of the game, it being in the TES IP, and the nature of crafting, and all that.  But 5 abilities?  That's why their combat is the way it is.  You can't make it dynamic or variable, or smart, clever, or require that of the customers when they have so little or so few tools to react with.
    Just like Shroud.
    Just like Fractured.
    Just like Chronicles of Spellborn.
    Just like Neverwinter.
    There's more than enough bad examples from history as to why an overly restrictive combat UI and/or overly restrictive LAS interface shifts the target demographic and fundamentally shifts your design in the wrong direction for a game with the tenets, features, differences, and public design goals of Pantheon.
    As in, your designers can't make clever, smart, variable, dynamic or interesting combat when your players can't be clever, smart, or responsive because they're fighting the UI instead of their in-game enemies.

    Really great historical LAS example with TESO, disposalist and lutorin.

    • 866 posts
    April 1, 2020 2:03 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    There's more than enough bad examples from history as to why an overly restrictive combat UI and/or overly restrictive LAS interface shifts the target demographic and fundamentally shifts your design in the wrong direction for a game with the tenets, features, differences, and public design goals of Pantheon.
    As in, your designers can't make clever, smart, variable, dynamic or interesting combat when your players can't be clever, smart, or responsive because they're fighting the UI instead of their in-game enemies.

    Really great historical LAS example with TESO, disposalist and lutorin.

    I agree.  I think people are trying to use EQ as the basis of having a limited LAS, but in reality there were very few skills required in EQ that you couldn't already have prepared hours before your very planned/rehersed encounter (with the exception of PvP).  Even the wizard in EQ (master of spells) had a fire based spell or two, 1-2 magic based spells, 1-2 frost spells and a couple utility spells at any given time, otherwise there was ample time to change out their nukes for quad kiting, buffs, or portal spells.  #ScalingLAS

    • 762 posts
    April 1, 2020 3:36 PM PDT
    Maybe someone can break down how UAS (or non LAS) can be used too enhance an encounter, not by just saying because you have more skills and there for dynamic content, but how (with an example or 2 made up or real) does UAS mean an encounter can be more dynamic. Maybe some very specific examples like...

    You can't have this kind of boss attack / bunch of mechanics with LAS because the players have no way to deal with it because...

    Or maybe the example will be from the opposite angle, you can only have this kind of boss attack / bunch of mechanics because with UAS a player can...

    I mean this is where I am stuck with the concept, I can't fill in the blanks for either of those questions, I'm guessing when we talk about dynamic content we're talking about what mobs can do and their type of attacks and how they change etc?

    Thinking as I post this... is it because the kind of encounter people want needs to have a whole bunch of mechanics that requires something like Mez and root and stuns and fire and cold resist and heals and damage and invisibility and more and more all at the same time or you lose? I'm not sure I like the idea of a game that has a whole bunch of if you don't do this at this precise moment you all wipe mechanics. Is that what it is about?

    Sorry if this appears ignorant, I'm really trying to get a good understanding of how an encounter must vary to incorporate one UAS with the exclusion of the other LAS or vice versa
    • 1547 posts
    April 1, 2020 3:56 PM PDT

    A couple things that I don't see mentioned is that, even with a limited action set, everyone still has 50 different buttons to push after awhile. 

    Everyone will have numerous hotkeyed clicky items...then you have assists and other combat function hotkeys, pet functions etc.  It's not as if you only have a choice of 8 buttons to press in combat. 

    And don't forget there is no integrated voice chat.  Even if you mostly group with your guild and are using your own voice chat there will be times that you end up communicating through typing.  Some of the younger gamers who didn't play mmos heavily before voice chat programs like ventrilo and teamspeak came out might be in for a rude awakening when they have to communicate quickly and efficiently through in game text while in combat.  In difficult combat communicating through text compounds that difficulty.

    • 1347 posts
    April 1, 2020 5:34 PM PDT

    Hokanu said:... I mean this is where I am stuck with the concept, I can't fill in the blanks for either of those questions, I'm guessing when we talk about dynamic content we're talking about what mobs can do and their type of attacks and how they change etc? Thinking as I post this... is it because the kind of encounter people want needs to have a whole bunch of mechanics that requires something like Mez and root and stuns and fire and cold resist and heals and damage and invisibility and more and more all at the same time or you lose? I'm not sure I like the idea of a game that has a whole bunch of if you don't do this at this precise moment you all wipe mechanics. Is that what it is about?

    Yes, in general.  But specifically, due to multi-dispositions, which have been confirmed to be a thing in Pantheon.

    philo said:

    A couple things that I don't see mentioned is that, even with a limited action set, everyone still has 50 different buttons to push after awhile. 

    Everyone will have numerous hotkeyed clicky items...then you have assists and other combat function hotkeys, pet functions etc.  It's not as if you only have a choice of 8 buttons to press in combat. ...

    They've specifically said no clickies in combat, and no other hotbars will be active in combat.
    If any other hotbar except the LAS 8 active +6 non-active will be useable during combat, in the entire UI, that would be new information, and directly contradict what they've revealed so far.

    The current public design goal for PA5, reaveled to date, is the 'extra' vertical hotbars (2 x whatever) that aren't the 8+6 will only be active outside of combat.  Meaning, during combat, they will be greyed out, and you cannot click on them or use them, at all.  No assist, no 'other combat function hotkeys'  no pet functions, nothing like that will be active during combat on those extra bars, from what they've shown and described.
    Nothing outside of 8+6.  It's possible the +6 is inteded to be used for assist and pet actions, but they haven't explicitly said that yet.  Only what is not allowed, not what is allowed.

    • 762 posts
    April 1, 2020 5:59 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Hokanu said:... I mean this is where I am stuck with the concept, I can't fill in the blanks for either of those questions, I'm guessing when we talk about dynamic content we're talking about what mobs can do and their type of attacks and how they change etc? Thinking as I post this... is it because the kind of encounter people want needs to have a whole bunch of mechanics that requires something like Mez and root and stuns and fire and cold resist and heals and damage and invisibility and more and more all at the same time or you lose? I'm not sure I like the idea of a game that has a whole bunch of if you don't do this at this precise moment you all wipe mechanics. Is that what it is about?

    Yes, in general.  But specifically, due to multi-dispositions, which have been confirmed to be a thing in Pantheon.

    Sorry Vjek, but can you elaborate in a more specific way? Specifically how a group with LAS are unable to beat an encounter that is too dynamic or it has too many dispositions, as far as my imagination let's me go, I can easily see a group of 3, 4 or more each with 8 abilities covering all bases in a fight with cc, heals, damage, resists, debuffs, taunts, aoe etc etc  else, there must be a lot of spell types I am missing? Can you be more specific on the type of mechanics you have encountered or can think of that mean you cannot have the same encounter for UAS as you do for LAS?

    Maybe you or someone else could make up a scenario that explains it, and possibly reference the specifics of the encounter that exclude LAS in a group scenario. I'm really wanting to understand what I am missing.  Cheers

     

    • 1547 posts
    April 1, 2020 8:06 PM PDT

    @vjek Can you link to where they stated no clickies in combat please? 

    Brad referenced clicky items in EQ in relation to Pantheon multiple times. (Not that it holds any weight at this point but...)


    This post was edited by philo at April 1, 2020 8:09 PM PDT
    • 3380 posts
    April 1, 2020 9:27 PM PDT

    philo said:

    @vjek Can you link to where they stated no clickies in combat please? 

    Brad referenced clicky items in EQ in relation to Pantheon multiple times. (Not that it holds any weight at this point but...)

    https://youtu.be/VFs7Iud2gLg?t=4317


    Joppa doesn't explicitly state that you cannot use clickies during combat, but does reference the out-of-combat bars when talking about buffs/clickies/consumables.  As far as when players are in-combat  --  they will have access to an 8 slot "active" hotbar, and a 6 slot "utility" hotbar.  From what I understood in that interview, abilities that directly apply a detrimental effect to an NPC (Damage, CC) or a direct healing effect to a player can only be placed on the primary bar.  If clickies follow the same logic as abilities, certain clickies might be regulated to the active bar (based on their effect ... if a clicky provides direct damage or a heal, for example, that would make it a "direct detrimental/healing effect") while others might work on the utility bar.  Maybe clickies have different rules and could be used on the utility bar even if they do provide direct damage/heals.  Either way, any clicky that is placed on the out-of-combat bars would not be useable in-combat since those bars would grey-out once combat is initiated.  Maybe players can still use clickies from inside of their bag while in-combat?  I'm not sure, but based on what Joppa said, it seems to be a design goal to prevent players from "living out of their bags."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 1, 2020 9:35 PM PDT
    • 1347 posts
    April 1, 2020 10:06 PM PDT

    https://youtu.be/VFs7Iud2gLg?t=4461

    " two rows of eight hot bars. ...
    those will be specifically your out of combat bars, where if you want to have clickies, if you want to have consumables, ... potions, you know, just anything that you would want to have access to outside of that "only usable in combat only things" ... that's where those things will live.
    So when you initiate combat, those two bars on the side will gray out, you won't be able to access those, you'll only have what you have on your main bars."

    There is no indication, so far, from anything described about LAS that consumables, clickies, potions or anything that's not an ability will be able to go onto 8+6 or will ever be available in-combat
    Quite the opposite, from the thread subject video.  Joppa is quite consistent in his message on this topic.

    As always, happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think there's much wiggle room here for interpretation.  Even during the video commentary, from the community, they say "no pots in combat confirmed".  Also, at https://youtu.be/VFs7Iud2gLg?t=4540 , he is emphatic: This is how they're going into testing.

    • 1547 posts
    April 1, 2020 10:15 PM PDT

    I think you are reading into more than what was actually said. Just because there are clickies that will go in your out of combat bar doesnt mean there won't be clickies that can be used in combat.

    It was never said that clickies wont be usable in combat.

    But we are nit picking words.  In the end I doubt it will matter anyway.


    This post was edited by philo at April 1, 2020 10:35 PM PDT
    • 1347 posts
    April 2, 2020 7:21 AM PDT

    Hokanu said: Sorry Vjek, but can you elaborate in a more specific way? Specifically how a group with LAS are unable to beat an encounter that is too dynamic or it has too many dispositions, as far as my imagination let's me go, I can easily see a group of 3, 4 or more each with 8 abilities covering all bases in a fight with cc, heals, damage, resists, debuffs, taunts, aoe etc etc  else, there must be a lot of spell types I am missing? Can you be more specific on the type of mechanics you have encountered or can think of that mean you cannot have the same encounter for UAS as you do for LAS?

    Maybe you or someone else could make up a scenario that explains it, and possibly reference the specifics of the encounter that exclude LAS in a group scenario. I'm really wanting to understand what I am missing.  Cheers


    Sure, it goes something like this..
    Each class has a role.  That role has unique abilitles.  It exists due to its unique abilities.  Each combat-related disposition has a mechanic that ensures that role is neutralized.  If you don't have a counter to that disposition, that enemy has a very strong chance of killing off a role in the group.  If you don't have that role, you fail.  (either you die, someone else dies, or you all die).  A meaningful death penalty is applied, and it's a negative outcome.
    The logical conundrums with the current design are twofold.  First, respawns are random dispositions, and two, in some cases, in particular, when it counts the most, multi-dispositions will be presented without an opportunity to prepare.  A locked room boss fight is the simplest example. 
    You don't know the dispositions of the boss before it spawns.  Similarly, with respawns, you don't know the disposition until you're fighting it.  You're already in combat, either forced  by the encounter mechanics (An AoE, conal, ranged, or similar attack or negative effect) or by necessity (healers gotta heal!).  At that point, there's no reacting, the cards are on the table, and you're just tapping them.  If you don't have the cards you need?  You lose.

    It's not that customers won't want to prepare or plan, it's that they can't.  And I don't mean they're unable to communicate, I mean the UI is preventing them from implementing their plan.  Or put another way, the characters know what they need to do to counter a random disposition, they just can't do it at that moment due to an arbitrary UI limitation.  I know I need to use a stun instead of a mez, but I can't load my stun, because I'm in combat.  If I have my stun loaded 100% of the time on a 5% chance of maybe?  I'm inefficient for 95% of the fights by a certain amount. (say 1/8 or ~12%)  For each inefficient ability I might not need, but I have loaded, I'm 12% less effective.  If I have two kinda-sorta cross-role abilities loaded, I am 25% less efficient.  At what point does this become fun?

    I love the idea of random dispositions.  I just don't like the idea of not being able to react to them because I'm doing my best to perform my role.  If my role requires that I apply status effects to a target so others can exploit them, as well as transfer threat and scout, and I have to give up one of my unique role abilities due to RNG, that's not ideal.  If I had enough room on the arbitrary UI limitation such that I could have a few "Oh, crap!" moment abilities, and still perform 100% of my unique role?  All good.  I'm not convinced, personally, that 8 is enough for each role to do that.  Every game I've ever played that has dynamic, meaningful, tactical or strategic combat permits more than 8 active abilities.
    If the intended design is such that I'm forced to be 12-25% less effective, minimum, in my unique role, just to cover the off chance of a random disposition?  Sorry, but that's just a poor design, right from the start.  Now I'm not actually limited to the glory of 8 active abilties, it's actually only 6 or 7.  Or 4 or 5.  Or whatever other subset of 8 is required so that I can get through 30 minutes of fighting without a dirt nap.  How does this ensure subscriber retention?  Does ensuring death due to RNG, while tying one arm behind the back of your customers, ensure subscriber retention?  Sounds more like rage-quit frustration, to me.

    Also, there is a competing implementation problem here.  If roles are unique, but LAS forces you to play the overlap meta-game, how is your role unique again?  Have the original design goals changed?  Similarly, if group interdependence is desired, yet, I'm playing the overlap meta-game to ensure I don't have to rely on my group mates (by slotting my kinda-sorta's of their role abilities, instead of my own), isn't that the opposite of the unique role design goal?  If overlap means you win, that's directly at odds with the concept of unique roles.  Does that drive future design and content?  It sure did in other games.  As soon as someone could perform the role of another (see Rift) then the expectation was.. you MUST perform the role of another.  Well crap.. that's not old school design, is it?  When you remove the role from role-playing, you're left with just playing.  Weee?

    Ultimately, encounter design will be negatively affected by this UI limit.  If players are placed in combat during a locked/spawned/scripted encounter, and cannot change their abilities during this time, then the encounter can't switch dispositions, nor can it use a or multiple random dispositions, without guaranteeing a death.  Remember, the entire point of the disposition system is to remove a unique role ability.  That's their reason for existence.  Having a creature immune to mez means you must use another CC technique.  Ok, so, under what conditions would success look like when you have a creature immune to taunt, stun and mez, that also goes after all the priests first due to healing aggro or script?  Bring two healers?  They're both dead in under 20 seconds.    (And it might be completely different next time, so you can't plan or react.)
    Now the rest of the group has to survive without any ability to heal while enduring a curse, DoT, or similar AE that can't be resisted, and must be cured by... wait for it.. a priest.  Sure, that'll be easy, right? :)  EQ1 had fights with similar mechanics, and with UAS, it was challenging to complete some of them, never mind with Active-8 LAS.  It's not that I'm imagining these scenarios might be possible, I've seen them (or similar) first hand in other games.
    The natural consequence of players being unable to react is to make things easier.  If not, then.. you'd have to reduce the effectiveness of dispositions, or admit their implementation is flawed.  Well, having seen how developer hubris affects decisions of this nature over the past 20 years, it's pretty easy to predict.  They're not going to admit the implementation is flawed, so, the fights will be made easier.  Or respawns will become static or predictable.  Or boss dispositions will become static or predictable.  Then, another missed opportunity for challenging fun is lost due to a perfect storm of multiple bad decisions, pride and ego.  Again.

    It's not that I don't see the attraction of the concept.  Designers have got to love such an implementation, because of the freedom it offers them in dynamically nullifying roles.  I would love to fight these encounters with access to my full toolkit, because then my guildmates and I can use our big brains to try to win.  Instead of guaranteeing failure because I can't press the ability I know would at least give us a chance at success.  I'm not looking for an "I win" button, or 100% success scenario.  Merely the positive chance to possibly succeed, instead of the punitive almost-guaranteed chance of failure.

    • 766 posts
    April 2, 2020 7:27 AM PDT
    Color me confused? Locked action set has been a thing since i’ve joined these forums. They just now have a testable UI and have officially set a testing limit on LAS. I don’t see how this is a “new” revelation that is causing such an uproar?

    And if there is a situation that 6 players are not ready for - that is the learning curve of the game. You fail, you regroup, you analyze and test a new approach. Try different abilities/spells. Think outside the box. Gather more help and test raid functionality of encounter.
    • 255 posts
    April 2, 2020 7:49 AM PDT

    kreed99 said: Color me confused? Locked action set has been a thing since i’ve joined these forums. They just now have a testable UI and have officially set a testing limit on LAS. I don’t see how this is a “new” revelation that is causing such an uproar? And if there is a situation that 6 players are not ready for - that is the learning curve of the game. You fail, you regroup, you analyze and test a new approach. Try different abilities/spells. Think outside the box. Gather more help and test raid functionality of encounter.

     

    Correct, it is not new, its just some people have taken it upon themselves to get in a tizzy over it...

    I mean everyone is entitled to their opinions...

    I've said it before on various other threads that have been hijacked to voice opinoins on this topic, and I'll say it again, I hope VR does not succumb to the pressure of some of the vocal people who have been beating on the proverbial horse for a while now. I mean, at the end of the day, the game may not be for everyone... And if we go full EQ2 with all abilities available to cast at anytime, then maybe the game wont be for me.


    This post was edited by arazons at April 2, 2020 8:33 AM PDT
    • 2160 posts
    April 2, 2020 7:55 AM PDT

    kreed99 said: Color me confused? Locked action set has been a thing since i’ve joined these forums. They just now have a testable UI and have officially set a testing limit on LAS. I don’t see how this is a “new” revelation that is causing such an uproar? And if there is a situation that 6 players are not ready for - that is the learning curve of the game. You fail, you regroup, you analyze and test a new approach. Try different abilities/spells. Think outside the box. Gather more help and test raid functionality of encounter.

    I'd love to think outside the box, but I'm trapped in a narrow little box called LAS.

    You're confused because you think an idea existing for a long time has any bearing on whether or not it's a good idea. Some of the oldest ideas in history are some of the worst.

    I also think you're a bit off the mark if you think that simply planning your abilities is the "learning curve of the game". If planning matters more than execution, then this game is doomed in its simplicity.

    • 255 posts
    April 2, 2020 8:10 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    kreed99 said: Color me confused? Locked action set has been a thing since i’ve joined these forums. They just now have a testable UI and have officially set a testing limit on LAS. I don’t see how this is a “new” revelation that is causing such an uproar? And if there is a situation that 6 players are not ready for - that is the learning curve of the game. You fail, you regroup, you analyze and test a new approach. Try different abilities/spells. Think outside the box. Gather more help and test raid functionality of encounter.

    I'd love to think outside the box, but I'm trapped in a narrow little box called LAS.

    You're confused because you think an idea existing for a long time has any bearing on whether or not it's a good idea. Some of the oldest ideas in history are some of the worst.

    I also think you're a bit off the mark if you think that simply planning your abilities is the "learning curve of the game". If planning matters more than execution, then this game is doomed in its simplicity.

     

    So with over 2100 posts, it indicates you've been here a while. So you should know that LAS is a thing here. I think that was sort of the point of his post. Its been spelled out that there will be LAS for as long as I can remember.

     

    As such why are you here trying to change it? If its not the game your hoping for, then why are you trying to change it for people who do want the game as it is proposed? Especially when there are several games out there that offer what you want already...

    Just because you do not like LAS doesnt mean other people are not in favor of it. Some of us are here because of the simpler game play (fewer actions available at any given time).

    Some of us are not here to preach our pseudo knowledge of game design, game development and the gaming market in an effort to bend the company to our will.

    We're here because they proposed something we wanted. If its not what you want, it does not mean that the company nor the players who are here for what they are offering, should have to change to suit your needs/wants.


    This post was edited by arazons at April 2, 2020 8:37 AM PDT
    • 57 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:03 AM PDT

    arazons said:

    Liav said:

    kreed99 said: Color me confused? Locked action set has been a thing since i’ve joined these forums. They just now have a testable UI and have officially set a testing limit on LAS. I don’t see how this is a “new” revelation that is causing such an uproar? And if there is a situation that 6 players are not ready for - that is the learning curve of the game. You fail, you regroup, you analyze and test a new approach. Try different abilities/spells. Think outside the box. Gather more help and test raid functionality of encounter.

    I'd love to think outside the box, but I'm trapped in a narrow little box called LAS.

    You're confused because you think an idea existing for a long time has any bearing on whether or not it's a good idea. Some of the oldest ideas in history are some of the worst.

    I also think you're a bit off the mark if you think that simply planning your abilities is the "learning curve of the game". If planning matters more than execution, then this game is doomed in its simplicity.

    So with over 2100 posts, it indicates you've been here a while. So you should know that LAS is a thing here. I think that was sort of the point of his post. Its been spelled out that there will be LAS for as long as I can remember. 

    As such why are you here trying to change it? If its not the game your hoping for, then why are you trying to change it for people who do want the game as it is proposed? Especially when there are several games out there that offer what you want already...

    Just because you do not like LAS doesnt mean other people are not in favor of it. Some of us are here because of the simpler game play (fewer actions available at any given time).

    Some of us are not here to preach our pseudo knowledge of game design, game development and the gaming market in an effort to bend the company to our will.

    We're here because they proposed something we wanted. If its not what you want, it does not mean that the company nor the players who are here for what they are offering, should have to change to suit your needs/wants.

    I think you're missing the point though arazons. I've known LAS was going to be a thing for a long time. However, I had no idea that I wasn't going to be able to change spells out in combat until a couple years into development. I know many people came here with a background in EQ. In EQ you have an LAS, but you were afforded the opportunity to adapt and think outside the box on the fly if you encountered a situation that you couldn't immediately handle with your current setup, as opposed to just dying and coming back with a different loadout. I loved in EQ that you could do that.

    So I might not have my root on my hotbar as a necro because we have both a ranger and druid in the group so it's redundant. But the druid and ranger both die and we're trying to salvage a wipe, I manage to get root loaded and park a couple mobs and allow the rest of the group to med up a little so we can try and still save the day with minimal losses. Necros also had a minimal heal spell. No necro has that heal on their bar 24/7, but if the cleric somehow died you could try and swap it in and maybe keep someone alive.The way VR has it configued now, you just die in those scenarios with no chance to utilize your skills. 

    I don't mind the LAS at all, I'd just much prefer they used the EQ method as opposed to how they currently have it. Doesn't sound like much fun at all tbh. You're left with a feeling of hopelessness when a scenario like that comes about with no way to solve it and that was one of the more exilerating parts of EQ combat even though it was slower pace. Those times when all hell broke loose and everyone was trying to pull a rabbit out of the hat to not wipe. You just won't have that ability with how it's being implemented now.


    This post was edited by Mandalorian2K at April 2, 2020 10:23 AM PDT
    • 255 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:20 AM PDT

    I get the point, its been made repeatadly across a spectrum of threads. I am neither for or against swapping skills mid combat. If it does become allowed it should not be easy though, there should be a memming time that could land you aggro (depending on your class and group contributions) while you sit to swap.

    With that said I am against having all skills up on a hot bar at once or having them immediately available through an instant no risk swap mechanism.

     

    I look at it like this... we're not meant to win at everything, everytime. 

     

    Sometimes you approach something unfamiliar and you will fail. You then need to regroup and reconsider what skills you have equipped after a failure. That is part of the overarching tactical decision making process they are aiming for. If we make it so that we can react to every possible situation without any potential for failure then this is not the game that it set out to be.


    This post was edited by arazons at April 2, 2020 10:23 AM PDT
    • 57 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:26 AM PDT

    You didn't win at EQ everytime either, there were plenty of failures and this game was originally marketed at those types of players. So I don't buy that argument.