Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PantheonPlus Joppa Interview Stream

    • 2160 posts
    March 29, 2020 4:20 AM PDT

    Flossie said:

    The UAS crowd sounds like they want to be able to single-handedly avoid death at all costs.

    I absolutely love it when people mischaracterize entire arguments like this. I want the game to be more challenging, not less so.

    If this is what you think about UAS, then I'll provide a similarly-toned counterpoint for LAS:

    The LAS crowd sound like they want to play a slow game that has been made less challenging to accomodate the fact that they have poor mental agility.

    • 1707 posts
    March 29, 2020 4:31 AM PDT

    redgiant said:

    ...

    One final thought, I HOPE this isn't interface isn't being positioned toward making Pantheon console-friendly or something. Whenever I see games cut down on the openness and flexibility of their UI, often it is because they want some controller to be able to be used instead of a keyboard. Once you start down the road of targeting consoles too, all sorts of "dumbing downs" start to happen all over the UI, gameplay and accessibility of functionality, because otherwise console players will start complaining they can't do what keyboards can, so common denominator makes keyboard players play with oddly-justified limitations on UI, slots, windows, bindings, chat and such.

    Can you say that you are not letting console support taint your decisions?

    Ouch. You said it. Though, I can't say that hadn't crossed my mind too...

    I really hope this is not a factor. I play console games. I play PC games. There are some things the console does better. There are some things the PC does better. There are *very* few things that work well for both and MMORPGs is one of those that does *not* work for both.


    This post was edited by disposalist at March 29, 2020 4:32 AM PDT
    • 1707 posts
    March 29, 2020 4:37 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Flossie said:

    The UAS crowd sounds like they want to be able to single-handedly avoid death at all costs.

    I absolutely love it when people mischaracterize entire arguments like this. I want the game to be more challenging, not less so.

    If this is what you think about UAS, then I'll provide a similarly-toned counterpoint for LAS:

    The LAS crowd sound like they want to play a slow game that has been made less challenging to accomodate the fact that they have poor mental agility.

    Lol. I get your need to counter-point, but you know it's just going to lead to an arguement heh.

    I'm gonna add, again: Why does it have to be LAS vs UAS? EQ was a hybrid and worked ok in that regard. Some kind of hybrid (that isn't as UI-clicky painful) would be a good compromise, surely? Could even be an ideal and not feel like a compromise if done right.

    Isn't it pointless to keep bashing UAS and LAS (which we all know both have their negatives).

    Let's come up with some innovations that solve this argument rather than go around and around.

    Ideas previously mentioned: -

    - Allow mid-combat re-memming a la EQ classic (with associated risks of aggro increase and time to accomplish)

    - Casting direct from Codex (with penalties to mana use / resource cost / cooldown time / casting time)

    - Casting from alternate action hotbar (with penalties as above)

    - Skills in CC classes (Enchanter, Bard, Necro) that can put group members out of combat (and so they can cast from other hotbars)

    - A skill for each class that puts themselves out of combat (obviously needing some kind of risk/cost/cooldown/etc)


    This post was edited by disposalist at March 29, 2020 4:50 AM PDT
    • 1616 posts
    March 29, 2020 5:10 AM PDT

    I'm pretty sue the only thing we would need is the CC classes having a single target, 2 min cd, 18 second mez that takes you out of combat, is all we would really need, if it needs to be longer i wouldn't strentch it more than 30, but i woud only do that for comfort.  

    Plus to counter the whole if a mob kept changing resistance and what to do, it's simple, you have your group mem up different elements and blast it when its your turn, i men it is a group orientated game, plus i also don't see many of these actually being out there, cept maybe in raid content.

    Or lets say the mob has 3 phases and each of your casters can do 300dps you could either do:

    300+300+300=900/3=300 or 0+0+900=900/3=300, just saying.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at March 29, 2020 5:39 AM PDT
    • 132 posts
    March 29, 2020 6:34 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    84 abilities with a ton of overlap. Not 84 unique abilities with unique functions.

    Let's be honest, the real reason people want the LAS is because it will coddle them with simplistic gameplay the same way EQ does. Reactionary gameplay is too hard for them. Pressing more than one button every 10 seconds is "button mashing" for them.

    Liav said:

    I absolutely love it when people mischaracterize entire arguments like this. I want the game to be more challenging, not less so.

    If this is what you think about UAS, then I'll provide a similarly-toned counterpoint for LAS:

    The LAS crowd sound like they want to play a slow game that has been made less challenging to accomodate the fact that they have poor mental agility.

    So, you're complaining that people mischaracterise arguments from the pro-UAS crowd and what you want from a UAS system (you say you want more challenge).

    And you try to retort by saying that players that want LAS all want easy simplistic gameplay, they want to be coddled, they have slow reactions and poor mental agility.

     

    Are you deliberately trolling or do you not see the utter irony in your posts?


    This post was edited by Ezrael at March 29, 2020 6:35 AM PDT
    • 1616 posts
    March 29, 2020 7:00 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    Liav said:

    84 abilities with a ton of overlap. Not 84 unique abilities with unique functions.

    Let's be honest, the real reason people want the LAS is because it will coddle them with simplistic gameplay the same way EQ does. Reactionary gameplay is too hard for them. Pressing more than one button every 10 seconds is "button mashing" for them.

    Liav said:

    I absolutely love it when people mischaracterize entire arguments like this. I want the game to be more challenging, not less so.

    If this is what you think about UAS, then I'll provide a similarly-toned counterpoint for LAS:

    The LAS crowd sound like they want to play a slow game that has been made less challenging to accomodate the fact that they have poor mental agility.

    So, you're complaining that people mischaracterise arguments from the pro-UAS crowd and what you want from a UAS system (you say you want more challenge).

    And you try to retort by saying that players that want LAS all want easy simplistic gameplay, they want to be coddled, they have slow reactions and poor mental agility.

     

    Are you deliberately trolling or do you not see the utter irony in your posts?

    yeah, i guess he didn't think if LAS has a lot of overlap in his opinion, how would UAS be any diffferent if not worse.

    • 338 posts
    March 29, 2020 11:50 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Flossie said:

    The UAS crowd sounds like they want to be able to single-handedly avoid death at all costs.

    I absolutely love it when people mischaracterize entire arguments like this. I want the game to be more challenging, not less so.

    If this is what you think about UAS, then I'll provide a similarly-toned counterpoint for LAS:

    The LAS crowd sound like they want to play a slow game that has been made less challenging to accomodate the fact that they have poor mental agility.

     

    Similarly-toned? My point was that the UAS crowd seems to fear failure and wants to be able to survive and do most things by themselves, not rely on group teamwork. It was not a personal attack on their skill or mental aptitude, simply a preference in gameplay that I feel doesn't allign with Pantheon's tenets. And yet you misinterpret it and then personally attack my intelligence after complaining about (what you somehow perceived as) the very same thing. Classic irony.

    • 169 posts
    March 29, 2020 12:18 PM PDT

    no there is more to it then just the bar system and people are just hyper focusing on it as I am seeing there are a few other varibles that people are not taking into concideration that is all I am trying to bring up...

    • 1616 posts
    March 29, 2020 1:11 PM PDT

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    deleted, no need to to get people more riled up than they already are.

    My opinion was not to rile up the masses at all, it was to inform them that there is more then just the action bars people are not taking into consideration that people are hyperfocusing on it.

    Nah your good @Oldwargoat39, that comment had nothing to due with what you said, I said something and instead of agitating people i figured to just delete it and not throw gas on a fire that has already burnt too long.

    • 169 posts
    March 29, 2020 1:23 PM PDT

    Well I do want people to take a step back and take a good look at the big picture and see what other vaiables that went into the dev's choice that is all. Hyper-focusing onto the action bar issue is only going to cause more problems then solutions and it's not healthy thing to do. why break things because of what a small vocal group of people want and not the overall community wants?

     


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at March 29, 2020 1:56 PM PDT
    • 2160 posts
    March 29, 2020 6:51 PM PDT

    pls delete, don't care anymore


    This post was edited by Liav at March 29, 2020 10:49 PM PDT
    • 2621 posts
    March 30, 2020 11:26 AM PDT

    Flossie said:

    Similarly-toned? My point was that the UAS crowd seems to fear failure and wants to be able to survive and do most things by themselves, not rely on group teamwork. It was not a personal attack on their skill or mental aptitude, simply a preference in gameplay that I feel doesn't allign with Pantheon's tenets. And yet you misinterpret it and then personally attack my intelligence after complaining about (what you somehow perceived as) the very same thing. Classic irony.

    You live in a fantasy land if you think LAS provides more group teamwork, especially while IN combat. 

    LAS means your group will have figured out the tools needed to bring and know "I am using these 8-12" (where 5 or 6 are likely core/bread and butter that never really leave their bars), no need to worry and less need to communicate beyond this. The individuals know their "job(s)" in the group/fight. Player 1 does DPS, dodges the cleave, hits the first stun. Player 2 does the same after him. If X happens player 3 does Y. Once that mob dies they rinse and repeat with the same abilities, maybe a couple play with the UI and change one or two for a particular disposition but otherwise the quality of communication/teamwork is very low. You have plenty of "x isn't my job" where individuals in the group need not even pay attention to aspects of any given fight. 

    With UAS and longer than average cooldowns the group has to continually communicate with the breadth of their abilities, realizing far more of their class than otherwise. Instead of just using the most efficient couple interrupts between two players they need to work together as a whole from fight to fight to challenge the mob that is attacking. Each fight is more unique and interesting based on the abilities (now used as resources) that have been drawn in in the fight(s) prior. If a group is chain pulling, the further they go the higher the risk as they have less abilities to answer the rising problems, a very real risk/reward for those who can pull together as a group and communicate. This only doubles so for bosses/longer single encounters.

    Yes groups would start off with more options vs an individual "trash"/normal mob of appropriate level but I don't see that as a flaw (given the game would be balanced on this idea, mobs throwing everything and the kitchen sink far more often than LAS knowing players have more possible options to begin with). In many great things in life those attempting challenges start off far better/stronger/healthier than they finish. An athlete begins a feat at full rest and strength, someone going on a tough hike or rock climb starts off rested with full provisions. The Oregon Trail starts off simple but slowly resources (mana/class specific/endurance/abilities) dwindle as challenges are met and the group presses on.

    The better a group coordinates/communicates/works together as a whole with UAS (as opposed to more emphasis as an individual within a group with LAS) during a fight or string of fights, the greater the thrill/challenge/reward.

     

     

    Anyway, look forward to testing and giving feedback on what exists.

     

     

    I know we are apparently not supposed to give any feedback or thoughts on parts of the game unless specifically asked by VR, that they otherwise do not care or want to hear it. /s

    • 1174 posts
    March 30, 2020 6:54 PM PDT

    The "community" of this game makes me more depressed than the thought of waiting multiple years for it to come out.  It always seems like people are so close-minded to things they have never even have the ability to test, because it doesnt fit their "ideal" image for the game.

    I have opinions on what i think would be great, or not, but never would i spend 12 pages arguing over features that i havent even had the ability to test (with the exception of instancing, i love instancing).

    I hope this is attributed to the fact that everyone is spending massive hours at home and is just bored, but seriously, give the team a chance to implement what THEY think is best, and offer it up to test.  I dont really think much of the game has been set in stone, if anything.

    • 170 posts
    March 30, 2020 9:36 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    The "community" of this game makes me more depressed than the thought of waiting multiple years for it to come out.  It always seems like people are so close-minded to things they have never even have the ability to test, because it doesnt fit their "ideal" image for the game.

    I have opinions on what i think would be great, or not, but never would i spend 12 pages arguing over features that i havent even had the ability to test (with the exception of instancing, i love instancing).

    I hope this is attributed to the fact that everyone is spending massive hours at home and is just bored, but seriously, give the team a chance to implement what THEY think is best, and offer it up to test.  I dont really think much of the game has been set in stone, if anything.

     

    Completely agree.  It actually drives people away. Come check the forums and it's this arguing nonsense.  I've been watching since 2014 and it goes in waves. 

    "You're in our World now"

    Stick to your vision Devs!

    • 1738 posts
    March 30, 2020 10:05 PM PDT

    We're pushing 2 years of mostly silence since PF was announced, they said a couple days ago that pets aren't even working yet after being horribly broken and/or non existent in PA4, we haven't seen a single complete gameplay feature other than...climbing? Their social media presence is a complete joke, they've lost contributor after contributor, they've gone from saying "funded through launch" to finally admitting that was nonsense, they don't have the resources to upload an image or some text on their official website, but it's the negative posts on the forum that drive customers away? :eyeroll: 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at March 30, 2020 10:08 PM PDT
    • 487 posts
    March 30, 2020 10:08 PM PDT

    Kastor said:

    It actually drives people away. Come check the forums and it's this arguing nonsense.

    You know what else drives people away that has nothing to do with any of the people posting on the forums/reddit/discord/youtube/twitter?

    1. The Website
    2. Outdated FAQ
    3. Slow Development cycles
    4. Lack of Transparency
    5. Lack of Consistency
    6. Constant Delays
    7. Missing Internal deadlines
    8. People leaving the team and not getting replacements

    I mean...should I go on? I could/would but I am getting close on time, so I will just talk about that in the next post...maybe.

     

    • 1707 posts
    March 31, 2020 3:23 AM PDT

    Posting to complain about things that might put backers off when the posts themselves will achieve nothing but putting backers off...

    • 762 posts
    March 31, 2020 3:28 AM PDT
    And there it is...

    It sucks we're back here again Fragile and Keno.
    • 406 posts
    March 31, 2020 6:16 AM PDT

    Hokanu said: And there it is... It sucks we're back here again Fragile and Keno.

    It's a dead horse, but they aren't wrong.  A lot of these "unforced errors" are solely on VR not running a tight ship.  I think everyone is just asking for more professionalism in the communication and presentation.  The lack of consistency and progress is somewhat epidemic in this industry, but it seems a tad more prevalent here.  I'm guessing they are waiting for this PF demo to be finished before they roll out a new website in anticipation of a minor marketing blitz.  My hope is that two years of mostly silence will be alleviated by a massive "upgrade" dump that encompasses a new website, advertisement blitz, and of course a non-NDA Alpha.  Of course, it might also be as simple as they simply can't afford to do any of those things unless/until the PF Demo proves to be successful in raising further investment capital.  I don't really see a downside to VR just giving us a "fireside chat" on what needs to happen for this game to launch.  But then, my livelihood doesn't depend on continuing crowd funding investments either, so what do I know.

    • 1941 posts
    March 31, 2020 7:53 AM PDT

    Mathir said:

    Hokanu said: And there it is... It sucks we're back here again Fragile and Keno.

    It's a dead horse, but they aren't wrong.

    You are very much correct, they are not wrong.  Not in the least.

    The first two point Fragile mention, the website and the horribly outdated FAQ could easily be rectified.  VR has 5 people listed as 'marketing & PR and Community Relations'.  Clearly the website and FAQ would fall under one or more of those catagories and their responsibility. There is the saying 'you only get 1 chance to make a first impression' and this website and its FAQ make a terrible first impression.

    • 22 posts
    March 31, 2020 7:58 AM PDT

    Mathir said:

    I'm guessing they are waiting for this PF demo to be finished before they roll out a new website in anticipation of a minor marketing blitz.

    What leads you to that conclusion? They had a fullstack webdev last year but she quit/was fired/vanished and the website update was put on ice afterwards without any promise of an update in the near future. Or maybe she was brought onboard solely to work on the store but that seems a bit unlikely. A new website has been coming "soon" since years ago but that has never manifested. Even the copyright **** on the bottom left of this page says "2014-2017 Visionary Realms" and the concept art part of the Updates/Media/Screenshots section is primarily stuff from the kickstarter era.


    This post was edited by Tabian at March 31, 2020 7:59 AM PDT
    • 420 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:11 AM PDT

    Maybe I'm the oddball here but I always found it strange that one would have their entire spellbook memorized. It sort of defeats the purpose of having the book on you or be put into a situation where you would hardly, if ever use it at all. The old RPG, fantasy trope of the spell-caster having to memorize a few spells before an encounter, or the class that didn't have to but was much more limited in the number of abilities they had access to. That to me is the very basis and I think was what they intended in the classic MMORPGs of the 1st generation. 

    That can still work here. You have melee classes with far fewer abilities and the rare caster who has that same freedom and do not require short-term memory and memorization. Then you have those with a much greater variety and number of abilities, but to have them all memorized due to the sheer complexity isn't only difficult, it's nearly impossible. That's how I see it anyway.

    LAS as a position of content design also plays into this but that's something that came after the initial implementation that was borrowed from AD&D Wizards and similar mechanics.

    • 866 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:49 AM PDT

    Janus said:

    Maybe I'm the oddball here but I always found it strange that one would have their entire spellbook memorized. It sort of defeats the purpose of having the book on you or be put into a situation where you would hardly, if ever use it at all. The old RPG, fantasy trope of the spell-caster having to memorize a few spells before an encounter, or the class that didn't have to but was much more limited in the number of abilities they had access to. That to me is the very basis and I think was what they intended in the classic MMORPGs of the 1st generation. 

    That can still work here. You have melee classes with far fewer abilities and the rare caster who has that same freedom and do not require short-term memory and memorization. Then you have those with a much greater variety and number of abilities, but to have them all memorized due to the sheer complexity isn't only difficult, it's nearly impossible. That's how I see it anyway.

    LAS as a position of content design also plays into this but that's something that came after the initial implementation that was borrowed from AD&D Wizards and similar mechanics.

    I'm pro-LAS, but limited depending on class.  I agree with your first paragraph @Janus in regard to spell memorization, but disagree with the point in your second paragraph about melee having far less abilities.  The melees in PRotF have just as many abilities as the casters.

    My reasoning for suggesting a scaling (perhaps by level or class) LAS is because you will end up with skills that are NEVER used (like in EQ)... in which case, why even bother wasting time developing them?  A perfect example is the Paladin with about 30 abilities, and most of those are situational.  i.e. if you only have 8 slots available, the "situational" abilities will never be used in combat in a game where the harder enemy dispositions will not be known until combat starts.  

    I hate to bring up other games as examples, but it is the best way to get a point across, WoW did this masterfuly.  A WoW fire spec mage could be throwing fireballs left and right, but that one enemy starting to run would be great to have a frostbolt on it, and even though it may not be on the mage's "main" bar because they don't use it often, they still have access to it in a pinch.  The PRotF Paladin has some AMAZING looking abilities (and we haven't even seen all of them) that will never be used if the LAS is anything less than 12.  With that said, WoW has Limited Actions (that just got stronger or replaced by better actions) instead of a LAS... EQ was also similar in that there really wasn't a need (for most classes) to need more than 8 actions at any time because the encounters were well known ahead of time what you would need (except on pvp server).

    To clairfy, I'm not pro-UAS, but I am for a much higher "Limit" on a LAS.  There are already too many "revealed" abilities (that do not overlap contrary to some people's statements) to limit too much.

    • 1605 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:52 AM PDT

    I like the discussions, there are more learned people that I discussing this and- even with some of the "heat" I am learning something. I will admit to a bunch going over my head but to know that there are poeple that know such things is encouraging.

    Tbh I tend to internalize spell casting or melee fighting, in that I imagine the play in my mind as to whats happening-fwoosh! ha HA! burn you monster!, oh no I cant strike! I am too week! so tired- the drama...(even though its only cool-down timers) and as one has seconds to resolve I think of sam gamgee in LoTR when he says "REACH!" to frodo, as the thing resolves and I can strike again.

    • 406 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:37 AM PDT

    Tabian said:

    Mathir said:

    I'm guessing they are waiting for this PF demo to be finished before they roll out a new website in anticipation of a minor marketing blitz.

    What leads you to that conclusion? They had a fullstack webdev last year but she quit/was fired/vanished and the website update was put on ice afterwards without any promise of an update in the near future. Or maybe she was brought onboard solely to work on the store but that seems a bit unlikely. A new website has been coming "soon" since years ago but that has never manifested. Even the copyright **** on the bottom left of this page says "2014-2017 Visionary Realms" and the concept art part of the Updates/Media/Screenshots section is primarily stuff from the kickstarter era.

     

    It's the only thing that makes any degree of logical or professional sense as to why it hasn't been done prior to this point.  The alternative is simply depressing to consider.  As for the primary topic, I'm still voting for an EQ1 hybrid system where you can sub out your spells mid-combat at signficant challenge or risk.