OCastitatisLilium said:Riahuf22 said:OCastitatisLilium said:Riahuf22 said:Okay, clearly you obviously missed the entire point of my statement, the difference between me and you is that even though they might be using a feature I might not like I don't prematurely judge it before actually testing it, much like you obviously didn't prematurely judge some of those thriller books before reading it and decided you didn't like it or prematurely judge you were going to like a book by your favorite author you haven't read yet. Or at least you shouldn't.
NO, No I didn't, because you are doing just that. You are prematurely judging the LAS that it's going to be good or can be good based on past expereinces. I only picked up one of his books based on the fact that a movie came out about it and I was like, wait this is a book? That's literally it. I wouldn't have even looked at them otherwise. EVERYONE bases an opinion on what they experienced in the past, the ONLY time someone looks as something new, is when it reminds them of SOMETHING THE KNOW THEY LIKE. I know what you are getting at, don't knock it until you try it, or, don't judge a book by it's cover, type of thing; but this is the thing, there is evidence for both that are pro and con to both. THere is more evidence that an LAS is terrible and the fact that I have read nearly every single post in here, supporting the LAS but then talking about WORKAROUNDS to circumvent the fact that you are locked to what is on the toolbar in a fight; just tells me that a UAS removes all of the extra tedious steps that don't need to be there, if you're just going to do them anyways. Why talk about anything then based on this game? Hmm? Why talk about ANYTHING about Pantheon then if we haven't tried it? Why post anything positive or negative about the game in these forums, we haven't tried it yet, based on what you keep touting.
Yes you did, but it's okay, you can keep thinking I have, that fine, it doesn't really make make a difference to me, as I won't actually prematurely judge the feature until actually tested. The ony thing I am actually prematurely judging is that I have faith in VR and will test their feature with a open mind and not have some past experience drive my answers upon biased opinions, that's what I'm prematurely judging.
Nice edit by the way, that's what it originally looked like. The fact that you are prematurely judging ANYTHING means you are using past experience whether you are aware of it or not. You can' t be this dense, seriously. You can't sit there and tell me you don't see how hypocritical every one of these replies and even your other posts have been. You were already accused of being rude once, and when I first read it, I tried to see where and honestly couldn't find it, but no, now I get it. Your being passive aggressive and instigative. I'm done talking to you, because talking to you is like drilling my own teeth without freezing.
You mean where I can say that I'm going to go into testing and judge their features with an open mind and not have biased opinions get in my way, yes I can say that,.
Oh and adding words into my statement and saying you caught me editing doesn't actually work, because when you click the reply icon it replies it to the way you saw it not to what I edited it too, but nice try.
Riahuf22 said:You mean where I can say that I'm going to go into testing and judge their features with an open mind and not have biased opinions get in my way, yes I can say that,.Oh and adding words into my statement and saying you caught me editing doesn't actually work, because when you click the reply icon it replies it to the way you saw it not to what I edited it too, but nice try.
so why do you keep editing? you keep adding and taking away, I know what the edit read like before I hit the reply button, so yeah, none of the stuff that you added to the post was there before I replied, that's fine, again, your passive agressive attitude and instigative nature is showing here on clear display. that's fine, lets hope that at some point we can have a better conversation, because this one clearly isn't it.
The only thing I've been passive aggressive towards is that people aren't even giving a system a chance and yet judge it like it going to kill the game, and your not going to call them passive agressive?
I mean seriously I don't see you talking to them and saying they are making you want to drill your teeth without freezing in fact in some way to a point simply because they are agreeing with you, you let them, probably because you agree with them, but yet the guy that's on the other side of the matter you want to label them so it makes it easier for you to ignore him.
And also not to nag this on but when individuals like Vandraad responded you realize I didn't respond to him like I did to some others, did I? No, you know why I didn't because he came in with a statement that was more of an idea or some other things that didn't sound completely biased, and I met him in kind, that's why.
Hokanu said: @Iksar But root type spells (probably the most common cc) is not likely going to be on a long cooldown right?
As of the current client, roots are very short duration. We aren't talking EQ durations anymore but in the 6-18 second range and random chance.
I made a comprehensive breakdown for people.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/a4j1lk/crowd_control_in_pantheon/
Janus said:Hokanu said: @Iksar But root type spells (probably the most common cc) is not likely going to be on a long cooldown right?As of the current client, roots are very short duration. We aren't talking EQ durations anymore but in the 6-18 second range and random chance.
I made a comprehensive breakdown for people.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/a4j1lk/crowd_control_in_pantheon/
That's a beautiful thing Janus, cheers for the info and that breakdown! Really awesome. I loved the random break on some cc abilities, other wise cc is too OP! As an ex enchanter I think I can say that haha, keep the sweat beading on my forehead as I get things locked down... You never know when chaos may begin again!
Edit: Wow , just delved deeper into that breakdown Janus, nice work dude, I'm sure a ton of people will be loving that
vjek said:SugarWood said:Nope. With no Alpha this year, this game is years away from persistence, and the past 6 years of testing are erased (at least for combat, with the new UI limitations).When I hear Joppa talk I always think the game is alot further along then we realize anyone else get that?
Joppa's review of 8+6 and no consumables or clickies in combat is a public design decision that should have been made and communicated in 2014, not 2020. Or at least in PA1, not PA5.
In light of these types of massive fundamental shifts in gameplay for Combat? I would have given them exactly zero dollars and ignored the game for the past 6 years if they had dropped this bomb in 2014.
Bit of bait and switch, imo. Hopefully they don't have many more of these reveals that ignore the pantheon differences, features, and tenets that got them all their funding up to this point.
The original design was to have only 12 slots. 8+6 is 14 total slots. Still a win in my book.
/Shrug
vjek said:Nope. With no Alpha this year, this game is years away from persistence, and the past 6 years of testing are erased (at least for combat, with the new UI limitations).
Joppa's review of 8+6 and no consumables or clickies in combat is a public design decision that should have been made and communicated in 2014, not 2020. Or at least in PA1, not PA5.
In light of these types of massive fundamental shifts in gameplay for Combat? I would have given them exactly zero dollars and ignored the game for the past 6 years if they had dropped this bomb in 2014.
Bit of bait and switch, imo. Hopefully they don't have many more of these reveals that ignore the pantheon differences, features, and tenets that got them all their funding up to this point.
Its good at least you got a direct interaction from Joppa, Vjek. Whether happy with his answer or not you must be satisfied to know your preferences are on his mind and i'd say without a doubt your preference is going to be tested in some form. I would be very surprised if they are not testing a variety of LAS numbers i think from memory of your PM the other day LAS12 was your preference. I cant remember whether it was with or without spell swap, but i have a feeling LAS12 will be tested, we know they have a flexible slot system to easily expand and contract the slots at will.
I definitely wouldnt be pulling my support if we went UAS even though it's my last preference, nor would it have effected my willingess to donate. The games awesomeness (to me) is far beyond skill slot options.
We'll see. It was extremely difficult to convince Chris Spears and Starr Long they were wrong, even after testing and the overwhelming negative response from the community. Developer hubris runs deep and wide.
This issue is not resolved, nor will it be after testing. Only public opinion will end up swaying them, if history is any indication. And if that does happen, all that time in betwee now PA5 starting and them finally changing their mind will be entirely wasted.
As far as 12 slot LAS goes, yes, 12 active/consumable/clicky/buff/whatever slots was always the presumed amount, until the reveal of 8+6. Now that clickies and consumables are gone? It's a fundamental shift away from what made EQ1 combat great, which I'm not in favor of. It also further limits what types of consumables can be created (not good for designers) and of course, further limits clicky effects overall, given they can't be used in combat.
Changing from 12 active to 8 active? Profoundly negative change for me and mine, especially given we have no current context for the magnitude of abilities and spells that might be considered non-active. The 6 non-active slots might as well be the current arbitrary non-combat hotbar slots, as far as I'm concerned. If they don't rank as active? Why would I want to use/cast them in combat? The +6 would objectively seem to be an illogical gimmick or obvious condescension.
Given the community perspective (in this thread) on leaving-combat-on-demand to bypass the LAS, it's clear such a mechanic will be massively overpowered and drive emergent gameplay in entirely the wrong direction, if all content is balanced around the LAS. Once again, we have one aspect of the game directly opposed to another (or a philosophy, tenet, etc). LAS restricts dynamic response of players, yet, dynamic npc encounters and multi-dispositions by their nature and existence, require dynamic response. No amount of spin will change that. Feign death, as demonstrated so far, permits massive anti-social griefing, yet, a goal is to have a co-operative social game. It continues to baffle me how these specific implementations run counter to the overarching principles, yet, most customers remain apathetic to the entirely negative & inevitable social consequences, confirmed by history.
vjek said:We'll see. It was extremely difficult to convince Chris Spears and Starr Long they were wrong, even after testing and the overwhelming negative response from the community. Developer hubris runs deep and wide.
This issue is not resolved, nor will it be after testing. Only public opinion will end up swaying them, if history is any indication. And if that does happen, all that time in betwee now PA5 starting and them finally changing their mind will be entirely wasted.
As far as 12 slot LAS goes, yes, 12 active/consumable/clicky/buff/whatever slots was always the presumed amount, until the reveal of 8+6. Now that clickies and consumables are gone? It's a fundamental shift away from what made EQ1 combat great, which I'm not in favor of. It also further limits what types of consumables can be created (not good for designers) and of course, further limits clicky effects overall, given they can't be used in combat.
Changing from 12 active to 8 active? Profoundly negative change for me and mine, especially given we have no current context for the magnitude of abilities and spells that might be considered non-active. The 6 non-active slots might as well be the current arbitrary non-combat hotbar slots, as far as I'm concerned. If they don't rank as active? Why would I want to use/cast them in combat? The +6 would objectively seem to be an illogical gimmick or obvious condescension.
Given the community perspective (in this thread) on leaving-combat-on-demand to bypass the LAS, it's clear such a mechanic will be massively overpowered and drive emergent gameplay in entirely the wrong direction, if all content is balanced around the LAS. Once again, we have one aspect of the game directly opposed to another (or a philosophy, tenet, etc). LAS restricts dynamic response of players, yet, dynamic npc encounters and multi-dispositions by their nature and existence, require dynamic response. No amount of spin will change that. Feign death, as demonstrated so far, permits massive anti-social griefing, yet, a goal is to have a co-operative social game. It continues to baffle me how these specific implementations run counter to the overarching principles, yet, most customers remain apathetic to the entirely negative & inevitable social consequences, confirmed by history.
And who died and made you God? You know you might be the one that is wrong here.. VR is not Bazzard. The tactic of if I cry enough and sceam loud enough the Devs will do as I want doesn't work here. VR did say many times that nothing is final yet. They will finalize things after beta. We are not even in Alpha so shut up with this same topic that has been over played. Now it'll be 3 days or longer before I return. So do what you clearly do best and flame away while saying blah blah blah is a confirmed fact. When blah blah blah isn't a confirmed fact. It is just you trying to force your views on the rest of us and call them facts. It is laughable. Give me your best! I have been called everything in the book. Since I'm retired military. I have been called everything in the book in mulitiple languages.
Vander said:We are not even in Alpha, this topic that has been over played.
Try not to escalate tensions, we're all here to share our thoughts and debate our preferences, doing great so far, no need for anyone to shut up, worth removing that bit mate if you don't mind. Setting your flame thrower to water is the best policy ;)
Nusser said:I like the LAS that the devs are setting up for Pantheon.
-when you get more of one class in a group they can both utilize different skillsets and have different roles.
And they can't do that without a LAS?
Nusser said:-A limited action set makes you think more about skill strategy and usage.
Ah yes, the idea that choosing from 8 abilities is more strategic than choosing from 24.
Nusser said:-In EQ2 I had 4 hotbars and combat was a button-mashing experience.
Ability bloat and button mashing combat have nothing to do with whether or not there is a limited action set. It is entirely a design decision by the developers. This logical fallacy keeps getting repeated and it blows my mind. You can have button mashing with 4 abilities just as easily as you can if you have 80.
Not a single thing you mentioned has anything to do with a LAS or the lack thereof. You literally have no argument for it.
Keno Monster said:Nusser said:I like the LAS that the devs are setting up for Pantheon.
-when you get more of one class in a group they can both utilize different skillsets and have different roles.And they can't do that without a LAS?
Nusser said:-A limited action set makes you think more about skill strategy and usage.
Ah yes, the idea that choosing from 8 abilities is more strategic than choosing from 24.
Nusser said:-In EQ2 I had 4 hotbars and combat was a button-mashing experience.
Ability bloat and button mashing combat have nothing to do with whether or not there is a limited action set. It is entirely a design decision by the developers. This logical fallacy keeps getting repeated and it blows my mind. You can have button mashing with 4 abilities just as easily as you can if you have 80.
Not a single thing you mentioned has anything to do with a LAS or the lack thereof. You literally have no argument for it.
Keno, it is ok and also likely that a bunch of people here have different opinions to you. If there is a group of people with a shared experience that differs to yours, you should try to understand it more rather than just one line it away with your fairly snarky responses.
regarding some of your points to Nusser above,
1. We know as well as you know that some of these features can be done with and without LAS as you have pointed out, but that doesnt change someones personal opinion over which system (LAS or UAS) promotes that better for them with their play style and their preferences. Its ok that their lived experience doesnt line up with yours, i hope you can understand that doesn't make you better or worse, its just different, we are different.
2. You certainly have no authority over what another person feels about what makes them think more about strategy in a game, they are DIFFERENT to you, so just chill a bit on that stuf dude.
3. Maybe (and i am not saying it is, I am just commenting) the use of terms like button mashing refer more to the feeling they get when they are going through a sometimes overwhelming precise repeated rotation of 20+ skills in order to maximise their dps or whatever their doing. It probably feels like that kind of button mashing (always pressing keys because there is always constantly somthing to cast... always). So you are probably right to say that this is not the exact definition of button mashing, but in the spirit of the conversation and assuming you have good critical thinking you can probably understand where they are coming from.
I mean I could try and argue with you that they "literally" do have an argument for it as you indicated they "literally" don't. Their argument is based on their own experiences, you find it hard to see it from their perspective, you should try to be a little more in touch with other perspectives, try and understand how they got to that position, maybe then you can present a positive argument that might actually change their mind instead of make people dig in deeper.
I know your going to be very keen to take each part of this post apart and rebutt everything, but before you do, try to first aquire my perspective, realise it is different to yours and then try to educate me in the best way you can. If your finding that your saying the same thing over and over again, dont get frustrated at the people who are not conforming to your opinion, we probably just agree to disagree.
Take care mate
I'm sorry that people don't understand the difference between making an argument for something(LAS) vs making an argument against something else entirely(spammy combat/meaningful decision making/duplicate class performance), and then conflating the two. They have nothing to do with each other.
And secondly, this isn't happening in a vacuum. Listing a presumed "pro" for the LAS while ignoring completely that it would be even better without the LAS, is nonsensical. This is a comparison. There has yet to be an *actual* reason for having an LAS that #1: has anything to do with the LAS and #2: can't be achieved without it. The entirety of the argument boils down to "because EQ".
A defining feature of this game is that it is one of limited resources. Losing sight of that I think is why people are so attached to the LAS. Pretending that people will become gods because they have all of their tools available at all times is absurd.
Ok one last go here for ya mate...
check your italics.. *even better* that is an opinion, and it is the basis of your argument. You need to come to terms with this. I know my argument is my opinion, that why i am not yelling at other people telling them they are wrong or illogical for having their own opinion based on their own experiences.
We're all basing everything on opinions, experiences and yes absolutely because EQ is a big portion of my experiences. I do not hide away from that fact, absolutely it is my biggest inspiration, all other MMOs I have tried are junk... in my opinion, with the slight exception of ESO at one point early on when the community was fairly chatty.
The unfortunate thing for you trying to convince me of your opinion, With everything you and others have said I still see UAS features as less desirable for my preffered gameplay style, with all the arguments put forth i just havent not been changed yet.
I'm actually excited to be testing both options, i sincerely hope they do open up testing for both, it will be interesting and at that point we will be able to see how our opinions here today line up with our preferences in testing. I would hope you are also looking forward to seeing both in action in testing at some point, surely your open to your opinion being changed?
Btw, I know opinions do not mean absolute fact, but opinions based on a personal preference and personal experience are ones that are as real as night and day to the person putting them forward. Until you can put forward a peer reviewed scientific paper discussing the way in which these features effect human behaviour then you need to accept your opinion is just that.
I am on the side of relaxing the LAS8 to something like 12 *and* having some kind of casting direct from spellbook or second hotbar (with penalties) *but* I fully accept that the major differences for restrictive LAS are largely a *subjective* difference.
1) You bias 'tactics' to planning before, rather than executing during, combat. Some people are happy with that or even prefer the idea.
2) You limit "button mashing" to 8 'critical' skills rather than 20 critical+. Some people are happy with that or even prefer it.
There is always *some* degree of planning and some of executing. The balance is the very subjective bit.
The group dynamic limits the restrictions of LAS. It also complicates the associated overheads.
Etc.
You can probably make arguments that objectively more skills available enables more tactics, numerically, but when it comes to words like 'challenge' and 'difficulty' it can easily be argued that limitations make things more difficult and challenging. The problem with that, of course, is the subjectiveness of those definitions and people, like myself, quickly counter saying it's actually more 'frustrating' and less 'fun' not really 'challenge/difficulty'.
Please let's keep it respectful and calm folks. If we stop trying to convince people how 'right' we are and how 'wrong' they are, we might just come up with compromises or even new solutions that subjectively satisfy us all.
Disclaimer: I have been very guilty of being over-defensive and opinionated (different to having an opinion) in the past. I'm doing my best to avoid that these days! Yes, I am aware of the irony of being quite opinionated about not being opinionated...
Thread cleaned up - Remove the personal attacks or the thread will be locked folks, you should know by now...there is absolutely no need to make it personal, state your opinion, have a civil discussion and move on if you can't see eye to eye.
Breaching forum guidelines may result in official action being taken.
vjek said:We'll see. It was extremely difficult to convince Chris Spears and Starr Long they were wrong, even after testing and the overwhelming negative response from the community. Developer hubris runs deep and wide.
This issue is not resolved, nor will it be after testing. Only public opinion will end up swaying them, if history is any indication. And if that does happen, all that time in betwee now PA5 starting and them finally changing their mind will be entirely wasted.
As far as 12 slot LAS goes, yes, 12 active/consumable/clicky/buff/whatever slots was always the presumed amount, until the reveal of 8+6. Now that clickies and consumables are gone? It's a fundamental shift away from what made EQ1 combat great, which I'm not in favor of. It also further limits what types of consumables can be created (not good for designers) and of course, further limits clicky effects overall, given they can't be used in combat.
Changing from 12 active to 8 active? Profoundly negative change for me and mine, especially given we have no current context for the magnitude of abilities and spells that might be considered non-active. The 6 non-active slots might as well be the current arbitrary non-combat hotbar slots, as far as I'm concerned. If they don't rank as active? Why would I want to use/cast them in combat? The +6 would objectively seem to be an illogical gimmick or obvious condescension.
Given the community perspective (in this thread) on leaving-combat-on-demand to bypass the LAS, it's clear such a mechanic will be massively overpowered and drive emergent gameplay in entirely the wrong direction, if all content is balanced around the LAS. Once again, we have one aspect of the game directly opposed to another (or a philosophy, tenet, etc). LAS restricts dynamic response of players, yet, dynamic npc encounters and multi-dispositions by their nature and existence, require dynamic response. No amount of spin will change that. Feign death, as demonstrated so far, permits massive anti-social griefing, yet, a goal is to have a co-operative social game. It continues to baffle me how these specific implementations run counter to the overarching principles, yet, most customers remain apathetic to the entirely negative & inevitable social consequences, confirmed by history.
A handful of people repeatedly ranting the same untested argument in a sea of thousands of people if far from,
"overwhelming negative response from the community. "
I understand you would like it to appear that way, but it's not and I'm sure those that matter see it.
I wonder if Joppa could give us a rough idea of unique active abilities each class is going to have. Our perception of 8 being too few is based on the EQ standard of dozens of unique abilities. The same is true with the idea of items being usable from inventory. If an item must be equipped for a clickly effect to work then there could be a paper doll bar that lets you activate specific pieces of equipment without cutting into the active effect bar.
In my opinion it would be even better if all spells and abilities were more modular abilities that trigger based on what order you do certain actions in. The original mud I played on spell casting was typing magic words in order (of course macroed cause text based muds). The words and order set both the effect and the mana cost.
If you had 8 different actions, you could combine to get different affects you could have huge tactical variations without needing tons of buttons. It would be a different style of combat though.
My first reaction was completely against LAS, however, after lots of thought on this, I couldn't be more excited about the possibilities with it now. :)
Additionally, based on what I heard on the stream, it would look something like this...
8 slot Action bar - combat use - action abilities only
6 slot Utility bar - combat use - utility abilities, clickies, consumables desired during combat
2x 8 slot Hot bars - non-combat use - utility abilities, clickies, consumables
The biggest problem with UAS that everyone is missing is that ability bloat is actually inevitable, it will happen regardless of how well you manage it, it could take an expansion or 2 to actually get there but it will get there and once that happens the statement that Keno is arguing against actually is one of the biggest problems with UAS let alone, having everything available to you and minimize any kind of threat that comes your way becuase you are always prepared to deal with abything tht actually comes your way, which would actually pretty much make pantheon like every other game that is out there.
disposalist said:There's no reason we have to be LAS *or* UAS and nothing in-between or different.
You guys are clever. Let's have some innovative ideas.
Something *like* LAS but not LAS could give that additional strategy/planning feel but without the crippling frustration.
I will take a stab at this:
Quaternity
Every archetype has a unique “Quaternity” spell that can be unlocked at level 25 through an epic style quest.
Tank
Maximum Burn: Temporarily unlocks the full utility bar for every DPS class in your group.
Healer
Hold The Line: Temporarily unlocks the full utility bar for every Tank class in your group.
DPS
Ascendancy: Temporarily unlocks the full utility bar for every Control class in your group.
Control
Guardian Angel: Temporarily unlocks the full utility bar for every Healer class in your group.
Challenge Defined
"With Pantheon, our philosophy of challenge puts less burden on nimble fingers and more on what we call strategic depth: designing gameplay around a longer-term curve that asks players to make decisions not based purely on reaction time, but by increasing players long-term reward or lowering their long-term risk based on a growing knowledge of the game."
Traits
The scope of the Disposition feature joins Properties and both of them fall under the larger Trait umbrella in order to better align with how challenge is defined. There are a variety of hidden traits that can exist within each individual NPC-Pancake and they are drawn from the following criteria: Race, Class, Archetype, Origin, Level, Biome, and Goal.
Every NPC will have a qualifying archetype, level, and biome. Some NPC’s will have a qualifying race, class, origin, and/or goal. Each category will have a profile of related subcategories. Non-exhaustive list of examples:
Race
Goblin, Orc, Giant, Ratkin, Khägans, Lizardmen, Dragonkind, Revenant, Centaur, Bugbear, Spriggan, Troll, Kobold, Wos Che, Harpy, Gnoll, Werewolf, Cyclops, Golem, Human, Dwarf, Skar, Elf, Gnome, Ogre, Halfling, Archai, Dark Myr
Class
Warrior, Dire Lord, Paladin, Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Wizard, Summoner, Bard, Enchanter
Archetype
Tank, Healer, Melee, Mage, Support
Origin
Skeleton, Zombie, Construct, Elemental, Demon, Ghost, Vermin, Plant, Marine, Extraplanar, Beast
Level
1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50
Major Biome
Desert, Cave, Jungle, River, Lake, Ocean, Tundra, Forest, Coast, Swamp, Mountain, Island, Plain
Minor Biome
Sewer, Fortress, Den, Vantage Point, Barricade, Tower, Crypt, Graveyard, Cell, Web, Chamber, Gate, Road, Field, Tall Grass, Mud, Magic, Dungeon, Campsite
Goal
Survive, Protect, Guard, Scout, Eat, Drink, Sleep, Ambush, Kill, Gather, Camp, Hide, Steal, Pillage, Sacrifice, Roam
Trait Distribution
Every NPC has a variety of traits assigned to them that are commensurate with their purpose in the world. Assigned traits should correspond with the goals of improving immersion, emphasizing world over game, and adding layers of strategic depth that can allow players to better leverage their growing knowledge of the game/world. Each trait will have a percentage-based value that will be used to calculate the likelihood of an NPC spawning with certain dispositions or properties. Some NPC’s may need to have these values manually adjusted in order to achieve any specific design-related goals.
Dispositions
Reference:
https://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_march_behind_the_design/
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10304/behind-the-design-dispositions/view
Properties
Resolute, Armored, Wealthy, Corrupted, Nimble, Hulking, Captivating, Hearty, Ingenious, Experienced, Important, Ravenous, Relentless, Cold Blooded, Armed
Kickers:
The trait system is really complex and would be broad enough in scope to where at best, players could prepare for a range of outcomes. There would be a mystery factor in play that would prevent 100% predictability.
Perception would come into play. Players with enough insight skill would be able to identify whether or not an NPC has a disposition or property. This information could either populate on the nameplate or be derived from /consider. Players with enough investigate skill would be able to identify the underlying traits that the dispositions and properties could be drawn from. (This would need to be mapped out extensively.)
A meta-game would emerge where highly knowledgeable players would be able to acclimate themselves with the world and learn this information (the larger range of outcomes) through experience. If players are confident in that knowledge, they can try to be extra-efficient and engage the world without going through the investigate process to try and further narrow down the range of outcomes.
The epic quaternity abilities would provide players with increased flexibility when things start to go sideways, but these abilities would have extended cooldowns and should be used strategically. There is plenty of emergent gameplay potential in this alone due to the interdependent structure where each archetype compliments another. It could affect group compositions, stacking the abilities simultaneously, and more.
Risk vs Reward comes into play in a big way. Any enemy that has a qualifying disposition or property would have a potential "bonus" of some sort when it comes to the reward. This could include XP, faction, currency, higher likelihood of a high-quality crafting component dropping (+1 version), disposition/property exclusive loot tables, etc. Rather than players getting frustrated about RNG, they embrace this dynamic landscape because of how much more rewarding a victory could be when confronted with these mobs.
Beyond that, players would be encouraged to "make do" with their current loadout as often as possible. They have options to get themselves out of a jam but since those options are limited, the emergent "make do" gameplay is something that would be tackled head-on as often as possible. I didn't really dig into the math or characteristics of each property but the general idea is that NPC's would be truly dynamic in a way that hasn't been realized in MMO's yet. The system is highly scalable within the pancake construct and this is information that players would have to learn on their own over a period of time. I could see countless hours spent on theory crafting from players trying to figure out how everything works but in the end, even if they do figure the math out, the mystery factor still creates tension stemming from the unknown and would help drive both emergent gameplay and the desire to better understand how the world works.
Just to extrapolate a little further ... consider the following NPC:
Drawn Cabalist:
Level Trait: 11-19
Race Trait: Ratkin
Archetype Trait: Healer
Class Trait: Shaman
Biome Trait: Cave
Every one of those traits has its own pool of percentage-based values in which associated dispositions and properties could be drawn from. A group may be able to identify that this NPC has a disposition and a property through insight. After investigating, they can determine that the following traits are being actively drawn from: Ratkin / Shaman.
Knowledgeable players would have learned which dispositions/properties are associated with those traits and can then try to narrow down what kind of characteristics the mob might have out of those pools. As a basic example, maybe the Ratkin trait has a high propensity for having the alarmist disposition / corrupted property, a medium propensity for the cunning disposition / nimble property, and a small propensity for a variety of other dispositions/properties. The Shaman trait would also have its own table of associated values. Players would be able to leverage their knowledge of these propensities to try and gauge a rough approximation of what disposition/property might be active for the mob prior to engaging, but they wouldn't actually know for sure. Some of these dispositions/properties may be more obvious than others and players could possibly determine these things prior to engaging in combat by correlating what they observe with how certain dispositions/properties function. The same could be realized during combat.
Ideally, these traits do not require a single option for counterplay and players don't feel compelled to constantly switch around their bars based on what they observe. This is where the meta-game comes into play where players may be able to identify an ideal set-up of their core abilities and then add some situational utility abilities that have a more consistent value in the environment they are in. Since things cannot be 100% planned for, and the possibilities are really diverse, players are bound to run into plenty of situations where they don't have the ideal counter available to them. When confronted with that situation they must choose whether or not they make it work with what they have ... which could lead to the desired emergent gameplay, or leverage their quaternity-based cooldowns (if they have them available.) The system might be a little frustrating early on but that would make those quaternity-based abilities extremely desirable and valuable. They would offer a real sense of progression and boost the sense of role-interdependence.
There is also the "multiple ways to skin a cat" philosophy that could come into play later, especially for the more difficult content that has a higher pool of traits to draw from. Deciding whether or not you bring 2 tanks, or 2 healers, or 2 control ... it opens up different ways to tackle some of the problems. Choosing how/when those abilities are used, and whether or not they are stacked simultaneously (or spread out) would require coordination and teamwork. If players engage an encounter and end up wiping, they may learn certain information that would help them better prepare for their next attempt. Either way, groundhog day would be alleviated because the next respawn could have different active traits and underlying values. This would really keep players on their toes and lend more toward adventuring than farming.
Saicred said:A neat take on the perception system. A fun read, thanks 1AD7.
Yeah, quite a few of us pointed out back when we were first told that dispositions would automatically appear on the namecard of the NPC that tying it to perception and the investigate skill would be far more interesting but people lost their effing marbles over even the thought of that.