Riahuf22 said:Well I wasn't actually saying in eq you were able to mem spells because the target was mem specially but that there was a clear state of control put in place to change something out, or you merely took the chance and it worked or it didn't.
But I'm sure if you mez a target or put a target in a trance in pantheon there could be opportunities to switch out spells, or at least figure out what to do while he's mezzes with what you got, as the spells/skills aren't a be all end all scenario, they would only make the particular fight easier, as it should be, and thinking that using a spell that is ineffective against a mob at a particular point was the reason why you died, though didn't help but it wasn't the complete reason.
You accuse people of being too quick to criticize LAS because we haven't tested it, while simultaneously stating how "sure" you are that there could be opportunities to swap things.
I have no words, honestly.
Liav said:Riahuf22 said:Prematurely judging something simply by past experiences and thinking it simply can't work is also quite dumb. For one most people would be single and never married.
Since you're always rude af and super dense, I'll respond in kind. As usual, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
The entirety of human knowledge is based upon past experiences and changing the way we approach things based on past data. Knowing when and when not to apply that information is what matters.
In your example, to draw an analogue, would be to divorce and then re-marry the same person. It simply does not apply to the situation.
There isn't any magical, unforeseen element to LAS in Pantheon. Pantheon is not some revolutionary, groundbreaking game. LAS is ground that has already been thoroughly tread. To say that you can not apply that knowledge is laughable.
How was I rude? I only stated the obvious, but I guess that offends you.
Plus the whole analogue of couples divorcing each other just to re marry each other is now the dumbest thing I have heard.
They would simply just redo there vows to each, and guess what people already do that.
Riahuf22 said:Really? How can any judgement on a topic be good at all if it hasn't been tested? Or are you just being completely biased in your opinion and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously, simply for being biased, just curious.
Look no further than your first post in this thread about LAS.
You fly off the handle, accuse some of being biased, and say that their opinion shouldn't be taken seriously because they agreed with me.
Seems like a trend with you, tbh.
Edit: Amended my post since context is hard for some people.
Liav said:Riahuf22 said:Really? How can any judgement on a topic be good at all if it hasn't been tested? Or are you just being completely biased in your opinion and therefore shouldn't be taken seriously, simply for being biased, just curious.
Look no further than your first post in this thread.
You fly off the handle, accuse some of being biased, and say that their opinion shouldn't be taken seriously because they agreed with me.
Seems like a trend with you, tbh.
Honestly I could care less if they agree with you or not, in fact I'm sure most of the time I hardly even notice your post in general, I only voice my opinion, and also my first post was not even towards you in this thread, but if it makes you feel better that's okay.
Riahuf22 said: ... But I'm sure if you mez a target or put a target in a trance in pantheon there could be opportunities to switch out spells, or at least figure out what to do while he's mezzes with what you got, as the spells/skills aren't a be all end all scenario, they would only make the particular fight easier, as it should be, and thinking that using a spell that is ineffective against a mob at a particular point was the reason why you died, though didn't help but it wasn't the complete reason.No. Not at all. Not even a little bit. The entire point of the current design is to specifically prevent what you're hoping for.
TLogan said: Really not understanding the hate on LAS? I think this all but solves one very important and common issue in MMOs : being a class that is already present in a group therefore being turned away and left to rot. At least with a LAS although it may not be ideal, you can come in being the 2nd druid and make yourself useful. I see this as a huge plus in so many ways.
You can do that, even more so, without the LAS. Don't understand, let me break it down for you:
Roles: Druid_1 focuses on healing and buffs & Druid_2 focuses on DPS and Control (Root etc).
With the LAS, both Druid_1 and Druid_2 have different spells available to them, but cannot change their role or do anything in response to said role if something dynamic occurs in combat. Furthermore, Druid_01 will always heal and Druid_2 will always DPS. But lets say a roamer adds, or a Disposition mob spawns and it kills Druid_1. In the LAS system, the group just dies and wipes. Why? Because Druid_2 is stuck with his DPS spells and can't respond dynamically within combat to the environment (in this case, NPCs).
In this same situation, with an UAS - Druid_2 could save the day by swapping to healing or maybe a battle rez. He stops DPS'ing and uses skill and dynamic thinking to save the group (yay he saved the day, what a great memory).
Can you make the argument that in the LAS scenario that was the risk? Yes. Could you say that druid_2 could leave a heal on his bar? Yes. But does any of that feel fluid, and like you are bringing your entire class kit to its core as a druid if you are constantly holding back? This example shows why WoW talent trees are good and bad, you get a "specialization" but at a cost - even though it's just between combat phases. However, it has been Pantheon's goal to just be a Druid, not a Resto Druid or a Balance Druid....you are simply a druid - which means they contain the full breadth of spells and abilities at their disposal.
vjek said:Riahuf22 said: ... But I'm sure if you mez a target or put a target in a trance in pantheon there could be opportunities to switch out spells, or at least figure out what to do while he's mezzes with what you got, as the spells/skills aren't a be all end all scenario, they would only make the particular fight easier, as it should be, and thinking that using a spell that is ineffective against a mob at a particular point was the reason why you died, though didn't help but it wasn't the complete reason.No. Not at all. Not even a little bit. The entire point of the current design is to specifically prevent what you're hoping for.
There will be no opportunities to switch out spells while in combat, and for damned sure, a mez will put you on the threat list. It sure did in EQ1, at least up to GoD and OoW. Memblur was an entirely different thing.
I'll give you this, though, Riahuf22, if Pantheon Enchanters get AoE memblur (AoE version of Thought Thief) and we go to launch with 8+6, they'll be the most powerful class in the game, forever, entirely because they can trivially bypass the LAS at any time for their entire group. :) Don't have what you need? Who cares? AoE Thought Thief, swap your hotbar slots, win!
And yes, the particular spells/skills you have, at the moment, are the end-all-be-all for winning the encounter. They're all you have, those 8 active slots. If your group doesn't have it, and it's required to counter a mutli-disposition boss, your group fails. End of story, enjoy your death penalty.
Takes actually completely incorrect. You can kill all of ToV raid bosses without casting magic debuffs, or dots, shot you can do it without bards, or necros, they are strongly advised but you don't actually need them, the only need you actually needed was warriors to tank and cleric to do a CH chain but other than that, the class make up of your dps could actually be quite random.
And you counter you thought of theft scenario just have it to where it can only be active on one target at a time and isn't AoE, obviously.
TLogan said: Really not understanding the hate on LAS? I think this all but solves one very important and common issue in MMOs : being a class that is already present in a group therefore being turned away and left to rot. At least with a LAS although it may not be ideal, you can come in being the 2nd druid and make yourself useful. I see this as a huge plus in so many ways.
This is a very insightful post, mainly because you are 100% correct. The LAS does create reasons for a party to have multiple classes of the same type. If this is a goal, and I believe Joppa stated it was, there's no disputing this fact. An UAS would allow one class all the ablities, so there would be few reasons to have more than one member of the same class, perhaps even the same archetype in some regards. A hybrid system might still function in this regard as well as long as its suitably annoying to have to swap out abilities frequently or just not feasible due to non-stop fighting. A UAS would seem to negate the need for two classes of the same type to work together as one player can do everything that class can do.
Mathir said:TLogan said: Really not understanding the hate on LAS? I think this all but solves one very important and common issue in MMOs : being a class that is already present in a group therefore being turned away and left to rot. At least with a LAS although it may not be ideal, you can come in being the 2nd druid and make yourself useful. I see this as a huge plus in so many ways.
This is a very insightful post, mainly because you are 100% correct. The LAS does create reasons for a party to have multiple classes of the same type. If this is a goal, and I believe Joppa stated it was, there's no disputing this fact. An UAS would allow one class all the ablities, so there would be few reasons to have more than one member of the same class, perhaps even the same archetype in some regards. A hybrid system might still function in this regard as well as long as its suitably annoying to have to swap out abilities frequently or just not feasible due to non-stop fighting. A UAS would seem to negate the need for two classes of the same type to work together as one player can do everything that class can do.
Not sure how this is correct in any meaningful way. Two warriors in a group, one is using primarily tanking abilities and the other primarily DPS abilities regardless of if the game is UAS or LAS.
I would rather bring a second warrior who uses a 2H, wears STR/DEX gear, and spends his battle points offensively ... but who can still taunt and use defensive cooldowns in a pinch, than the illusion of a DPS warrior from the LAS construct. I would argue that the UAS is more conducive to allowing multiples of the same class due to the flexibility afforded. Why would I ever bring a second warrior if their entire bar is dedicated to DPS and they still pale in comparison to any standard DPS class?
oneADseven said:I would rather bring a second warrior who uses a 2H, wears STR/DEX gear, and spends his battle points offensively ... but who can still taunt and use defensive cooldowns in a pinch, than the illusion of a DPS warrior from the LAS construct. I would argue that the UAS is more conducive to allowing multiples of the same class due to the flexibility afforded. Why would I ever bring a second warrior if their entire bar is dedicated to DPS and they still pale in comparison to any standard DPS class?
This too.
If a subset of a second warrior is more desirable than the primary ability set of a not-yet represented class, it sucks to be that class. I think most people would agree with that. If we accept the idea that having a multiple of the same class is non-optimal, and we're in a scenario where we either have no choice but to bring them, or we're intentionally doing it because they are our friend, I'd rather have more of a warrior than less of a warrior. Again, I'd rather bring a second full-fledged warrior that can taunt and use defensive cooldowns in a pinch than the illusion of a DPS/Utility warrior from the LAS construct. There are better ways to facilitate soft-specialization for having multiples of the same class. The first thing that comes to mind is stat-specialization (through gear/buffs/consumables) and how that is tied into ability modification/amplification. Beyond that, resource expenditure also comes into play. A single warrior has to make more this/that choices with how they spend their battle points in the UAS model compared to the LAS model. A second warrior would be able to rock a 2H, wear STR/DEX gear, and spend their battle points differently from the first warrior. You accomplish the same thing (allowing 2 warriors to function differently while in the same group) without removing class-defining abilities from the equation. A warrior is a warrior is a warrior. It is all about how you play the warrior that distinguishes you from your counterpart, not the UI restriction that governs your play for you.
Riahuf22 said: And yet again you are judging a feature VR is going forward with and haven't even actually tested it on its current form, now I know why they don't bring up most features anymore, the forums go on a 2 month spree trying to tear it apart before it even has a chance to do well anything.
Giving opinions on what you think about a feature is literally what these forums are for and the devs *want* and *ask for*.
Yes, some go too far and jump to "this will make the game fail!" negatives statements based on assumptions, but most are just giving their opinion on what we have seen and, in this case, been told by devs.
Yes, we will know for sure when it gets into testing, but politely discussing what we know in the meantime doesn't hurt if it stays civil and doesn't go into wild pessimistic hyperbole.