Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PantheonPlus Joppa Interview Stream

    • 147 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:30 AM PDT
    Too few buttons is a problem because every fight feels the same ("all I have is a hammer so I guess my solution to every problem is to hit it"). This doesn't add to creativity, it detracts from it. It also makes boss fights less meaningful because we're doing the exact same thing as we would when fighting regular mobs.

    Too many buttons is also a problem because it means you always have the perfect tool for the job, which, like a small LAS, detracts from creativity. It also makes all characters of the same class feel rather similar since they all have all the same skills.

    The solution is a middle ground--a LAS with enough buttons to allow for more than just your most used, primary rotation skills. We need long recharge "break glass in case of emergency" skills and enough buttons so we can put them on our bar while still leaving enough room for our primary rotation. These kinds of powers add immensely to the fun and tactics of combat. They also allow for more interesting and challenging boss fights, which makes these fights more memorable. This expanded LAS should still be small enough that we can't have everything we want, but it would allow for true specialization. A very small LAS doesn't allow for real specialization since we're mostly limited to the same "must have" skills as everyone else.

    My suggestion is to have a second bar and the bar itself has long cool-downs on each slot (even if the skill in the slot has a short cool-down). This gives us more options and adds to the tactical depth of the game without making everything too easy.
    • 255 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:37 AM PDT

    Mandalorian2K said:

    You didn't win at EQ everytime either, there were plenty of failures and this game was originally marketed at those types of players. So I don't buy that argument.

    I fail to see the point of you not buying it... I wasnt selling anything. Just stating my opinion as so many others have. 

    But you are correct, it was originally marketed towards those types of players. A group of which I am a part of.

    So when I say I am here because it was marketed to me as a game with risks, potential for failures, simpler button mashing, long term planning, and extended glacial paced gameplay, I mean it, thats what I am here for. I am not here trying to turn it into something else to fit what I think it should be or something I want it to be. They have pretty much outlined, marketed and sold me what has been missing in my MMO experience since the earlier days of EQ1. So I feel the need to speak up when I see people swooping in and insisting on changing the game into something else beyond what was originally marketed.

    • 487 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:43 AM PDT
    You were also originally marketed colored mana and alpha one by 2017. How's that going for you?
    • 255 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:47 AM PDT

    Delays happen @Fragile...

    Dont know what else I can say about it.

    Certainly doesnt justify all the negativity though. Take a break man. Come back in a few months. You are literally banging your head against a wall here, as though your complaints and comments on stuff not being done yet are going to make a difference in speeding it up.

    • 1941 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:52 AM PDT

    Tag me in Fragile!!

    • 487 posts
    April 2, 2020 10:56 AM PDT
    Let's go brother, oooooh yeah snap into a slim Jim!
    • 57 posts
    April 2, 2020 11:06 AM PDT

    Wooo!!

    • 766 posts
    April 2, 2020 11:14 AM PDT
    How many times did we have to fail in EQ before we got it right? Even with zerg raids and Unlimited open action sets and incombat mem’ing. I dont want a simple game. I want a game that makes choices matter and makes communicating strategy important. Thats the game i signed up for. I want my team to suggest options for me to try. I’m slow on the uptake so i miss things sometimes. I can tell you this tho. When i played EQ i rarely had more than 1 hotbar. If i made 2 hotbars it was only because of all the AA junk the game threw at you. I dislike the current game because of gina triggers and 18 hotbars and hotbuttons you need java to code. So for me an 8/6 and 2-8’s that are for Out of Combat are more than enough for me.
    • 2160 posts
    April 2, 2020 11:45 AM PDT

    No offense, but some people being slow on the uptake doesn't really justify simplifying mechanics. Pantheon is supposed to be "Challenge Reborn", remember? Well, at least you're being transparent about your reasons, I'll give you that.

    Also, nobody really fails at EQ in 2020. The game does not hold up in the current year, even in the closest iterations to what it originally was. The hardest thing you can do on P99 Green is camp a manastone, which has more to do with how much of a neckbeard you are than your ability to push buttons.

    arazons said:

    So with over 2100 posts, it indicates you've been here a while. So you should know that LAS is a thing here. I think that was sort of the point of his post. Its been spelled out that there will be LAS for as long as I can remember.

    As such why are you here trying to change it? If its not the game your hoping for, then why are you trying to change it for people who do want the game as it is proposed? Especially when there are several games out there that offer what you want already...

    Just because you do not like LAS doesnt mean other people are not in favor of it. Some of us are here because of the simpler game play (fewer actions available at any given time).

    Some of us are not here to preach our pseudo knowledge of game design, game development and the gaming market in an effort to bend the company to our will.

    We're here because they proposed something we wanted. If its not what you want, it does not mean that the company nor the players who are here for what they are offering, should have to change to suit your needs/wants.

    Okay, there's a bit to unpack here so I'll just address things one at a time.

    1. My IQ scales with my postcount, so I am under an obligation to inflate it as much as possible.

    2. The devs want LAS, yes, that isn't news. However, I do not believe that the devs would defend it unwaveringly if they were convinced it was a bad idea. Clearly, they think it's a good idea, and I'm trying to convince them that it isn't.

    3. I want Pantheon to be the best game that it can be, so I will voice my opposition to things I dislike if I feel that they run contradictory to that goal.

    4. These forums are a microcosm of the overall potential playerbase. I don't care what other people want, quite frankly. It might sound arrogant of me, but I do value my own opinions and ideas that have well formulated arguments higher than people who essentially spam post "I like this because EQ did it". Also, see point number 4 for re-iteration.

    5. Pantheon isn't supposed to be a simple game, as far as I'm aware, so I really couldn't care less if somebody here is happy with simple gameplay. It also depends on what you mean by simple. Pantheon could easily be described as "kill mob get loot", easy peasy. However, that's obviously a very superficial description of the overall gameplay. I think it's safe to say that Pantheon is not marketing itself as "simple".

    6. I'm not pretending to be a pseudo-developer. I have two decades of experience playing MMOs at a variety of levels (super casual, super hardcore, and everything in between) that I believe does give my opinions some weight. After all, it's the player's experience that actually matters when making a game. I'd be surprised if half the people here have played an MMO since classic EQ, and they actually think their input holds a ton of weight for a game being made in 2020.

    7. Pantheon is exactly what I want, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I'm going to get fussy over the details I don't like though, and I do believe that is perfectly reasonable. Pantheon, development wise, is in its infancy, and there is plenty of room for it to grow and change. Arguing about LAS and UAS is not some fundamental change that is going to destroy the fabric of the game the way some people would like to lead you to believe. I will end up playing this game regardless of any of these factors when it launches.


    This post was edited by Liav at April 2, 2020 11:47 AM PDT
    • 762 posts
    April 2, 2020 3:47 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    snip

    Thanks for taking the time to write that great post Vjek, I think we share the same vision in so many ways regarding what we want out of the game, and i completely agree that having access to more skills say up to 12 would give each player the ability to perform their main role while leaving more opportunity to react to more situations as they unfold.

    Where we differ is on a few things, mainly to do with a limited bar means you dont have the right tool for the job in front of you.  I'm not a fan of encounters built so that if you dont have x skill then your going to wipe, i dont think  that is how they are going to build the game, but that is just me speculating.  I think based on things Brad said (and i know that may be different now) that one of their key approaches to making encounters and also making skills is that they want 2 things to come out of the tool kits we are given.  Synergy is somthing they keep referencing and we see tons of examples of it within the skill descriptions, but more so than this and I think they will try to give us as much freedom within mob mechanics to create our own tactics through emergent gameplay.  I dont think we are going to be in a situation where if you have a random disposition / enemy class pop and we realise because we dont have one skill type loaded the fight is basically lost.  There will be many ways to skin a cat in this game and i think by preparing various flavours of control spells across multiple classes we create different ways to manipulate the enemies and swing the blanace of victory back in our favour in unorthodox ways.  There will be so many situations where we will be forced to use what might be considered a less effective strategy for that mob type because we didnt have all the perfect skills loaded for that disposition or class but to me that is flavour.  I just dont see Pantheon being a game where the if group doesnt have x skill loaded there is no chance of victory on this mob

    I remember when I would join a group with my necro back in Original EQ, i would come in with a pretty solo friendly toolkit initially, by that i mean i would often have a bunch of control spells mem'd and they would stay with me as I watch how the group is performing, this was always to be a backstop for slow to react enchanters / bards etc.  Then as we fight through the 1st few mobs have a look at what are the weaknesses of the group setup and strengths. Sometimes I'd spy an opportunity to change the tactics because I propose a new strategy.  Maybe we are in South karana fighting Tesch Gnolls or somthing, almost all casters, limited heals, group is taking a fair bit of damage, so to increase our efficiency i'm going to see what the group thinks about doing some fear kiting till we get a more balanced group setup, we can all do a bit of a switch up on skills to synergise with each other and give the best most efficient outcome for fear kiting, but it would be VERY wise for us to also keep some skills that will help mitigate what happens if various parts of our strategy start unraveling.  As we all start to settle into our new roles within the new strategy we start further narrowing our selection of our skills to synergise with each other, less and less we rely on each other for skills outside of the role we are fitting in this current strategy.  This is a double edged swrod though and this is the part I love, as we become a well oiled machine at one strategy and we further tune our ability selection to get the absolute best out of that strategy we open up a whole new weakness for our group.  This is where you and I differ i think,  the moment we have a weakness and the moment that weakness is exposed by some RNG mob spawn or a unexpected mob path things get all crazy, have we over committed to efficiency of one strategy and forgotten that we are exisitng in a terribly dangerous world, where death comes swiftly to those who rest on their abilities being able to get them out of every situation.

    Thats how I would love to see the game unfolding..

    • 1707 posts
    April 3, 2020 5:43 AM PDT

    Re. the recent shaman stream, I think we are beginning to see mitigating factors on the effects of LAS.

    The avoidance of down-ranking (maintaining of 'old' versions of the same spells) I am in favour of. I've always found it painful to worry about keeping old versions of abilities around. I'm glad Pantheon will avoid this overhead (sorry, minmaxers).

    It's not enough in itself, but I believe it's one of the things that Joppa has in mind when he implies that LAS won't be the problem some think it might be.

    I would still like to see some kind of cast-direct-from-Codex though, especially with the Codex being less cluttered thanks to no down-ranking.

    • 1941 posts
    April 3, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Re. the recent shaman stream, I think we are beginning to see mitigating factors on the effects of LAS.

    The avoidance of down-ranking (maintaining of 'old' versions of the same spells) I am in favour of. I've always found it painful to worry about keeping old versions of abilities around. I'm glad Pantheon will avoid this overhead (sorry, minmaxers).

    It's not enough in itself, but I believe it's one of the things that Joppa has in mind when he implies that LAS won't be the problem some think it might be.

    I would still like to see some kind of cast-direct-from-Codex though, especially with the Codex being less cluttered thanks to no down-ranking.

    I think Joppa said you'd have about 20 to 30 spells/abiltiies so the 8+6 LAS gives you access to 46% of all your spells/abilities available at any one time.

    • 1347 posts
    April 3, 2020 2:08 PM PDT

    Best case, sure.  But active/max is more like 25%.  You're not wrong looking at it optimistically, but there's a lot of missing information that could turn that into a much less rosy picture.

    • 1707 posts
    April 3, 2020 2:21 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Best case, sure.  But active/max is more like 25%.  You're not wrong looking at it optimistically, but there's a lot of missing information that could turn that into a much less rosy picture.

    Or much more rosy. There is a lot that is subjective opinion and a lot that is unknown.

    Like I said, I'm not convinced either, but I wish people would stop arguing about LAS or UAS in absolute terms when a hybrid would be fine and there seem to be a lot more mitigating and related factors and effects than are immediately apparent.

    Assuming doom-and-gloom is just as unwise as assuming roses-and-candyfloss (though one is more damaging than the other...)

    • 147 posts
    April 5, 2020 9:09 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Assuming doom-and-gloom is just as unwise as assuming roses-and-candyfloss (though one is more damaging than the other...)

    I'm assuming it will be doom-and-roses but I fear we might end up with gloom-and-canydfloss.  Also, I think I just figured out the perfect name for a guild.  Thanks!