Ziegfried said:Maximum DPS has it's place, but for most fights max dps is a nuisance for the tank who will constantly be losing aggro and of course that becomes a problem for the healer who is forced to push tons of heals on the max dps guy which in turns causes the healer to get aggro etc. Far more important is having DPS that knows how to avoid damage, when to burn and when to hold back. As for who deserves more credit I would say it depends on which MMORPG it is on which role is the most important...in EQ I would say the enchanter was king, in WoW the warrior was king (later expacs paladin, dk, druid, etc). A good enchanter made things a cakewalk in EQ, a good tank in WoW did the same.
The tougher the encounter the more important all the roles become. Usually max level group and raid content is where you see the need for every person to perform in order to win. A tank is not going to carry the group/raid if the boss is spawning adds all over, putting DoTs on random players, and blasting the raid with AoEs.
I 6 boxed in EQ and never once used an enchanter. However I would not have been able to do anything without Shaman slows. And in WoW you can say the same for a good healer. I played a holy pally and there were many times when i would just recruit a Ret Pally or Arms Warrior to tank for me because i didnt need to have a tank speced into prot. Youll never be able to indentify 1 class or even archtype that deserves the most credit because its going to vary based on the group and situation.
However, to your point of maximum DPS... the goal of every raid fight should be to deploy maximum DPS asap. If its not within a CLASSES ability to hold threat over another CLASS thats an issue. If its just 1 Player that lacks the ability, thats something completely different.
Porygon first of all you 6 boxed, so that is not exactly the average player to begin with. And yes shaman slows are awesome. But I was talking back in the original EQ for the average group of players...enchanters made life way easier with clarity and mez. I can respect saying shamans are most important though that is a good call due to the versatility of heals/buffs/debuffs. For WoW it was pretty obvious the tank was the core of the group especially in later expacs. Maybe with the introduction of bloodlust/heroism you could say shamans were the most important in WoW too haha...
As for max DPS on raids sure the faster the fight ends the better due to enrage timers etc. But that still means knowing when to not burst such as if the tank gets knocked back or disabled for a moment...going full tilt at all times is not always the best approach. And yes sometimes class design gets imbalanced or one of the DPS has an amazing weapon or something that throws things out of wack. In WoW it was pretty forgiving most of the time since tanks got ridiculous with the dmg/threat/tools as expacs continued.
Been giving the parsing conversation that has occurred in this thread quite a bit of thought. As much as I would prefer parsing not to be a thing... I know it will be. To that extent, I think I would personally prefer some form of meter IN GAME as opposed to just letting people parse the logs and do it outside of game.
My reasoning is simple... if it's part of the UI, then everyone is on equal footing with it, rather than having some folks doing it religiously, while others feel intimidated by the process of getting some external log parser and doing it outside of the game.
Hello everyone. Who deserves more credit? If the whole party survives, everyone. :P Hard to say. If its not a tpw (total party wipe) but only one group member survives and is able to defeat the last standing mob/npc, that character deserves it for that encounter. Play the game to group with people, to have fun. If you are grouping for vanity, you are playing the wrong game. Each battle, encounters for a group, usually someone will deserve credit. Its when the moment that happens, the group will know. Each class will have their moments, each player will have their 15 seconds of credit. Its the memories you will have. This game is geared for grouping, everyone will have their moments. It could be that druid, shaman or cleric from another group that happens to be nearby that healed you or your group, or debuffed/buffed you, that deserved it.
Wandidar said:Been giving the parsing conversation that has occurred in this thread quite a bit of thought. As much as I would prefer parsing not to be a thing... I know it will be. To that extent, I think I would personally prefer some form of meter IN GAME as opposed to just letting people parse the logs and do it outside of game.
My reasoning is simple... if it's part of the UI, then everyone is on equal footing with it, rather than having some folks doing it religiously, while others feel intimidated by the process of getting some external log parser and doing it outside of the game.
In fairness, most log parsing programs are extremely simple to set up. It's an enormous amount of work for the devs to create a fully fleshed out parsing suite like ACT just to make things 15% more user friendly.
Parsing software is as accessible as VOIP software. In other words, extremely accessible. It's unreasonable to go out of the way for a small minority of people who are "intimidated" by computers to the point that they know how to install and play an MMO, but not point a program to a log file.
Liav said:Wandidar said:Been giving the parsing conversation that has occurred in this thread quite a bit of thought. As much as I would prefer parsing not to be a thing... I know it will be. To that extent, I think I would personally prefer some form of meter IN GAME as opposed to just letting people parse the logs and do it outside of game.
My reasoning is simple... if it's part of the UI, then everyone is on equal footing with it, rather than having some folks doing it religiously, while others feel intimidated by the process of getting some external log parser and doing it outside of the game.
In fairness, most log parsing programs are extremely simple to set up. It's an enormous amount of work for the devs to create a fully fleshed out parsing suite like ACT just to make things 15% more user friendly.
Parsing software is as accessible as VOIP software. In other words, extremely accessible. It's unreasonable to go out of the way for a small minority of people who are "intimidated" by computers to the point that they know how to install and play an MMO, but not point a program to a log file.
Maybe so... but it also (Hopefully) would result in an environment where people weren't trying to REQUIRE external applications running while you play. I decided to kick around a little in EQ while I wait for Pantheon - and just tonight I see a guild running an open raid: Must be 105, must have GINA installed and running.
Not a fan of that happening.
Wandidar said:Maybe so... but it also (Hopefully) would result in an environment where people weren't trying to REQUIRE external applications running while you play. I decided to kick around a little in EQ while I wait for Pantheon - and just tonight I see a guild running an open raid: Must be 105, must have GINA installed and running.
Not a fan of that happening.
I don't know how to prevent that, really.
If you're a DPS class, you practically need GINA to track things like adps clicks. You have 42 buff slots and 15 short duration buffs slots on live. There's no way you can track adps clicks as well as event messages at the same time. The only way EQ could function without audio triggers is if they just outright removed a bunch of buffs from the game.
Regardless, you saw an environment where something was required and you chose not to participate. That's exactly how it should be.