muscoby said:The unfortunate focus on DPS and even the unfortunate perception regarding DPS is that once parsed there will be differences. In a game where there is supposed to be a distinction between classes and a differentiation between classes and that classes mean something it is inevitable that a single scoring mechanism like DPS will result in one class being at the top. It is inconceivable that there would be multiple classes that are exactly the same or exactly equivalent. There are not just four classes in this game - there are at least 12 classes to start and an expectation that there will be enough players to play those 12 classes. There may be four roles in the game (quarternary) but there definitely are more than four classes. Some classes are situated more in a particular corner of the quarternary than are others, but there are still 12 classes. And to that I will add that there is more than one class that is marked as DPS.
A single measure such as DPS as opposed to any other such measures simplifies the argument into the question, "Why have different classes for DPS when there only needs to be one?" Or even variations of "If different encounters are geared for different classes of DPS then why even bother brinign along different classes for different encounters than what is optimum?" Anyone who subscribes to a single metric will subscribe to that question and there is nothing to change that.
Thus why I believe different measures absolutely and actually matter and why different classes make the game different and anticipated. Anyone who would question "why even bother having a class such as..." because it is less than optimum would be the person that would be opposed to any variation in classes or even having more than four classes (in a quarternary) to begin with.
I sincerely am optimistic that effort is being made for there to be 12 (or more) distinct classes that all contribute in some manner to the quarternary and some aspects of gameplay will be better and some aspects of gameplay will worse for each and every class. Gameplay will be different or varied. No single measure will be the defining factor of gameplay or even content all the time and everywhere. DPS would simply be one measure that is applicable some of the time. Everyone matters.
Here here!
While I know that parsed numbers (with the assumption that we can parse) will be part of what is considered when deciding if someone is pulling their weight or not - or is "good" or not... I hope that it isn't the only measure for ANY of the roles, and think that, to some degree, the game will have issues if it is - and for the reasons you noted.
EDIT: Bah... I'm guilty of participating in a derail of this thread with my last couple posts. My apologies.
I think talking about DPS meters and measuring of players based on it etc is on topic with who deserves more credit and more particularly "Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, ... "
Only thing they could do is make it harder to run parsing programs by not showing the numbers of other players. Just give someone the flavor text of what others do "Wandidar hits a scrawny gnoll!" "Tralyan begins casting....a scrawny gnoll is consumed by flames"
I think there is nothing wrong with measuring DPS. But it is true that this often gets over-emphasized. Many in this thread have already pointed out the many ways in which other actions are much more important to the success of an encounter. However, being able to, as a DPS class, measure and work out the most effiencent rotation, etc. is not wholely bad either.
Another key is making it so DPS can't push their numbers safely. I'd prefer if DPS can't really go nuts with optimal damage/rotation, needing instead to tailor what they use and when based on their tanks skill & communication. In order to go full steam requiring knowledge of the mob & disposition as well as good timing/communication with the tank, making use of limited abilities/windows of locked threat on the tank.
Pyye said:I have never liked DPS meters... Did the Boss die or not?
It is true , DPS meters dont matter to some extent and are somewhat bad for those who use the information to brag or down others. However, well used this information is nice to have given that the person that interpret the data use it as a competitive mean internally within a guild/raid force to motivate other to optimize.
Then logically once well used the one boss you mentionned still will die, but if you consider not only one encounter but adds other there after over a time lapse, it may mean that instead of a 3-4 kill boss raid night for your guild it is a 6-7 kills. Increasing the amount of upgrade in term of drops your raid force get will certainly raise the odd of your force once confonted to another on a contested Boss to win to an extent.
In theory if your force is geared more etc , the healer will heal more , the CC will get resisted less , your Busrt DPS will have more mana and more importantly the time it take to do it will be alot less.
It is a preference in term of competition I suppose, alot of peoples take pride in being at the top and to progress fast, some other dont mind it, and it's all good. Personnaly i played for both camps I really enjoyed playing in a relaxed maneer (it's in fact where I believe I had the most fun in MMO with more social interaction), but also went full min/max to be the #1. You arent boxed in either of those option also nothing stop you to go from one mindset to another.
One can totaly raid Hardcore , and group outside of guild very relaxed and slowly in the same night. Or the opposite way around.
Grouping in a relaxed way while being geared like a beast make it even more social cause , you just cant die to group content.
Long story short, I love you all.
Rendall said:It is true , DPS meters dont matter to some extent and are somewhat bad for those who use the information to brag or down others. However, well used this information is nice to have given that the person that interpret the data use it as a competitive mean internally within a guild/raid force to motivate other to optimize.
...
Grouping in a relaxed way while being geared like a beast make it even more social cause , you just cant die to group content.
All too often what starts as motivation quickly becomes lashing or replacement.
And I hope that in no way shape or form being well geared makes level appropriate group content at all trivial (especially since grouping is the focus of this game over raiding).
We shouldn't even have a DPS chart or metric, because it's only for relativity of DPS-ers.
There are no metrics for CC. Who cares what the top ten DPS stats are when you wipe because CC failed and everyone wiped and reset?
DPS is celebrated because it's a number you can record - "tangible" data.
But you throw a couple good AoE mezz-bombs, some slows, charm, turn, root, fear, single mezz and turn a 12-against-6 pull-disatser into a methodical 7-on-7 bash-fest to save the day....THAT's real talent.
Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
Everyone deserves love :)
I liked older MMOs where over DPSing would pull aggro and pulling aggro would often mean death and death meant harsh penalties. I had more love for DPS classes back then because everyone had to learn how to walk right up to that aggro line without crossing it. With modern MMOs, a tiny few min/maxers put in lots of work to crunch all the numbers to determine to best skills/spells and the perfect rotation. Then they post the results online and everyone else follows their direction. They dont really learn their class, they just learn what buttons to mash in what order as fast as they can. Back then all roles were loved more because everyone needed to do their job well for a good experience and to avoid exp loss for death. Lets bring back the love! ;)
Revjak said:There have been a lot of good posts here, but I feel they have gotten a little off topic.
It seems like DPS parsing was made for a couple reasons.
1. To chest thump - this seems toxic to a healthy community
2. To track player performance in Raid setting? - I wonder how much this matters in Pantheon. Have we been told if there will be a player cap on raids? This is a totally open world, no instancing.. so the more the merrier. Only guilds limiting entrace by performance would bother with such a metric, and if that is the case then the player can choose if they want to be in a guild environment like that or not.
As almost all of these posts have agreed, it's about the group. Conventional makeup or not, if they succeed in completing the set goal, everyone deserves equal credit.
The most important thing to do is avoid introducing things into the game that places blame. That's up to the community, and I think we have a pretty good one.
It's not about placing blame, if you see that the guy is using the wrong abilties, and cant take some critism than thats his problem, he should be looking to the person that did well and take some tips from him and see if he can't preform better. people get this notice that when they try to get corrected that they are attacking him presonally, when its just a game and they simply want you to preform better, and honestly if i saw someone take it badly i probably wouldnt want to do anything with him simply becuase he takes things too personally
DPS meters are super important to the leaders who need to raise their guild's skills / strengths, I get it... But popular games have shifted toward the tactic of needing burst DPS.
I am hoping that VR is creative enough to take that out of the equation, to not mimic that style. Fights that will use MANY more skill sets than DPS. Fights that kill off the group where DPS was not even mentioned as a concern for the loss. Persistent environments, timing of unique spells, positioning, strategy and different techniques, condition control (such as managing DOTs or blocked structures etc..). I still believe it is much harder for any guild to have their members get mechanics or timing down.
Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love?
How cool would it be to give outstanding credit to your healers because a unique Boss fight was completely centered around them doing their job perfectly. Or maybe it is the Enchanters and Rogues combo'ing their skills well? Maybe it will be the norm for any Mini Boss or Raid Boss to have multiple blends of this class excellence to succeed. Hoping so...
I think back to the statement early on from the devs, where a cleric with a certain mastery could throw down barriers to manipulate the fight in your favor if done well. So now imagine if they are designing different fights with each classes unique skill in mind. Yep, Hoping so again...
fazool said:We shouldn't even have a DPS chart or metric, because it's only for relativity of DPS-ers.
There are no metrics for CC. Who cares what the top ten DPS stats are when you wipe because CC failed and everyone wiped and reset?
DPS is celebrated because it's a number you can record - "tangible" data.
But you throw a couple good AoE mezz-bombs, some slows, charm, turn, root, fear, single mezz and turn a 12-against-6 pull-disatser into a methodical 7-on-7 bash-fest to save the day....THAT's real talent.
This isn't true though. A parser can be made able to log all sorts of data, as long as the combat log tracks it. Anything from healing, damage taken (and from what source), deaths, damage done (and to what targets), dispels, interrupts, CC and so on. What it can't do, is differenciate the difference of importance from one mez to another, for example. It tracks quantity, not quality.
In modern progression raiding, hitting good damage percentiles is the bare minimum. The data more typically looked at is priority target damage, interrupt rotations, damage taken (is there any preventable sources?), as well as who died and why did they die - was it preventable by own measures? Or do we need to focus more healing in X scenario, or perhaps change our tactics as a whole?
Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
There is always this Top of the DPS charts in guilds. We mainly have used them as advisors to better the guild over all when tanking a large boss mob down.
We always respect our Tanks, healers, and Crowd Control players over DPS due to the fact they balance and hold the mob and call out specific tasks or wrong doings. Such as tanking down a larger mob, and ping pong it. Guilds try to balance out the fight the best they can or control the fight as a guild.
Progression, and raid progression are very important aspect of who is the better players.
Anyone can smash at the keyboard, but those that are well rounded, offer up suggestions and want to become a leader usually top the charts.
We then have our dps crew that must balance out the top dps in order to win the fights as fast as they can without losing too many too fast. Wizards, mages, necros, and Melee are very important aspect so the healers, tanks and crowd control have enough time to stay up. Once we lose those tank and spank players we as DPS are no longer useful.
So it is balanced out within the guild, neither are better. All become advisors to the guild structure for new and up and coming players.
It goes hand and hand i would say Kilsin, and more or less players like myself always try to better ourselves for the whole guild. Sure we have our meme moments in any guild but we all just shake that off with a grain of salt and put some butter on it to smooth coat with some fun insults. A person that demands, and dictates everyone elses game play on how they should do this and that and always about meme will usually retire soon enough or be removed. It happens, and we chaulk that up as drama.
You have been there i am sure kilsin, and so have many other players in EQ and other games. EQ being the first real balanced boss mob guild struture game we have had.
I prefer encounters where positioning, timing, and other "skill" factors can significantly decrease the need for primary factors such as DPS/Healing in order to win. An example from classic EQ is Lord Nagafen. Sure, you can Zerg the heck out of it by rushing the room with 50 people, ignoring the AoEs which caused the raid to get dispelled and mass hysteria as 'feared' people ran throughout the dragon's chambers. Alternatively, proper dragon placement, timing the AoE, investing in resist/clicky gear would enable a small band of adventurers to best the dragon if perfectly executed. These sorts of encounters let both small and large guilds progress.
The alternative would be a raid where the boss simply hits like a truck and if you don't have multiple raid geared warriors and a slew of clerics your odds of victory were incredibly slim.
In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
Questaar said:I like the posts from people that are making a group work while having fun. An unbalanced group can be a blast. My first EQ guild was all barbarians. Tanks and Shamans. We didn’t know any better. We got adds, rooted them and did the best we could. We weren’t fast but we were close knit, and we had fun. I don’t see anyone talking about hanging out, talking while waiting for spawn, or moving through a dungeon. It’s all smoke em fast and move on. Pantheon is supposed to be a social game. I hope there are social players out there. Sure dps is important, but there are three other roles that are important too.
I'd like this to be seen again. The most fun, in my opinion, is being open. I was playing P99 a few days ago and was in a group forming for the castle entrance in Mistmoore - we had a necro, cleric, wizard, and mage. Then a level-appropriate necro and enchanter showed up in the zone, lfg - but the leader wouldn't recruit them because he felt we needed a committed tank. I'm sure many would agree with him - but I felt we could do some interesting, fun things with two necros, a mage, a wiz, cleric, and enchanter - mezzing, healing, 3 pet tanking/dotting, nuking - something I've never done before, but would have been interesting and fun to try. Seemed not too crazy. I'd love to see more openness to different group makeups, within reason. That combo seemed reasonable enough. And just to say, I didn't make a stink about it in group =P
I suppose that's what guilds are for - to find people who have more similar play philosophies...
Tank being blamed for poor threat management when that dang DPS jumped the gun at the beginning of the pull?
CC getting shouted down for a party wipe when everyone else kept breaking mez?
Healer getting death threats from a DPS that has a mysterious gravitational pull towards fire?
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So come see Amsai and together we can make sure you WILL get all the credit you deserve and more!
With all this talk of topping dps meters I feel like I'm reading conversations on forum of other mmos where everything was a dps race before some mega wipe mechanic!
In my experience from ffxi, most dps could perform well when adequetly geared, but topping charts wasn't a huge thing in smaller parties. I remember being a dps and having to consider tank aggro while doing my job, no mindless race to top the chart! So why are meters even being mentioned? Forget meters!
I feel this game will be less about damage dealt, and more about tactics, cooperation, resource management, and group efficiency, so in that case every class is equally important! So lets not get obsessed with meters in this game!
It's all about context.
Instead of focusing on the 5% of contexts where DPS isn't relevant, let's acknowledge that 95% of the time, doing more DPS is preferred.
Aradune said:In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
Best idea i can come up with is, list DPS for the dpsers, and on another chart listed how many stuns/roots/ basically everyt type of CC cast and debuff and listed by pre preson highest to least like it would appear on a DPS chart, and than how much your tanks did in aggro, damage taken/midigated, healers healing/over healing/rezzes, give a very big and clear desxrpition one what happened, maybe even with time stamps or something so we know when they were using certain abilities and whe they weren't, could also list how the buffs effected the like liek haste and such and how much extra damage the dpser's do with these buffs. just a thought hope you liked it.
Aradune said:In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
Now this is an interesting quote from you. Do I smell threat or other encounter mechanics based on how a player is performing their role the best/worst? That would be so brutal if the system watched phase 1 of a fight for the most effective player then at the start of phase 2 several assassins spawned hard agro locked on the player. Assuming the player is not a tank it would be a combination of chain CC and DPS race to kill the assassins before they killed your most effective player. Then make the drop table always include at least one item for the class that was targeted to make players fight over who gets to die.