There's no right answer to this question. In a group or a raid situation, every player is (or should be) critical to the outcome. A lot of players focus on raw numbers - I did *this* much dps. I healed for *that* much. I was able to tank through *those* hits - but, there is a LOT more to combat than that. Was the tank able to position the mobs so that DPS could work to their full potential? Did the DPS use the right abilities at the right times to maximize their effectiveness without putting the rest of the group in jeopardy? Was the healer smart about mana consumption, so that they always had mana to spare for those unexpected moments? Did the CC types land those snares, roots, and mezzes to prevent things from getting out of hand? One of the great things about MMORPGs is that, when encounters are designed well, every class has a chance to be the hero of the moment. And it's not just about raw numbers, but about being prepared, thinking on your feet, staying calm and collected, adapting your tactics, and playing smart. There's both an art and a science to it.
So, who deserves more credit? The group.
United we conquer divided we fall; everyone has their part to play to be a successful in a well designed dungeon/raid. With that said, I can't recall an MMO where it was inherently difficult to play a rogue, wiz, or any other top dps class in a raid/group. Your first thought when sending invites or forming a group is; how good is this healer, how good is this tank, and then probably a good puller. I'd love for Pantheon's combat/mob mechanics to make it more difficult for dps classes to be successful. For once, I'd love to be able to say or ask myself "is this person a skilled enough DPS to get the job done for this dungeon?" The tank is normally the bottleneck anyhow (i.e. you can only do as much dps as your tank's capacity for mob enmity), so it'd be really refreshing/innovative to see a shift in Pantheon, requiring dps to have a higher skill ceiling in some way or another.
Kumu said:It's a symphony, not a solo. Everyone's performance adds to the thrill.
Exactly...everyone who did his or her job deserves credit...it's a team effort.
I think it is the designer of the encounters job to make it so that all classes are needed. That makes a fun and challenging game.
Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
This comment is entirely about group content, not raid content. (below)
If the question is about the comparison of roles, ideally the content would enable every role to have value. That's typically not the case, though, so adding more DPS is the solution to many other problems.
Examples:
No CC in group. The puller brings two instead of one. DPS burns down the add by consuming long cooldown abilities.
No Healing in group. CC repeatedly holds, stuns, roots while DPS burns to ensure ~no output damage and/or movement from the target.
No Tank in group. CC repeatedly holds, stuns, roots while DPS burns to ensure no output damage from the target.
No DPS in group? CC, Heals and tanks will eventually kill everything, it'll just take a long time.
Properly designed, there is a 'cost' to an unbalanced group, either in resources (mana, consumables) or time (it takes longer). But on group content with well geared players who are conscious, can see lightning and hear thunder? Well, there's a reason multi-boxing is a thing. You -really- only need players to press 1, 2 or 3 on single targets to win, typically, once a camp is broken, in typical MMO's without randomized resistances/mechanics.
Personally, when I started playing on EQ1 TLP a few years ago, I was really surprised at how often DPS pulled aggro, and no-one cared, in group content. The healer actually healed overnuking magicians and wizards, without a word of complaint. Tanks would, without commentary, follow targets ping-pong'ing around from one to the other DPS'er. Enchanters and bards would re-mez repeatedly, as though breaking mez was perfectly acceptable. It was bizarre, compared to the past where such..noobish? behavior would be soundly condemned and eventually lead to group expulsion.
tl;dr DPS covers a multitude of sins. :)
Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
If you're invited to a group as a damage dealer, as a damage focused designed class it would be more surprising if you weren't top damage. You expect the healer to keep the group alive, the tank to hold agro and mititgate damage, and you expect the Enchanter to crowd control additional adds/casting stuns and interrupts. It's only reasonable to expect the damage dealer to deal the most damage. It doesn't necessarily mean you're the better player, but it does mean you're fullfilling your role within the group. #AllRolesMatter
Personally, this kind and type of question was never a consideration when I was playing. Playing with friends or a pick up group of like-minded individuals. Were we able to explore challenging content? Were we able to survive encounters? Were we pushing the limits of capability due to our group make-up? All of this was a natural extension of playing the game in a group. We would play without a healer since we wanted to play. We would play without a tank since we wanted to play. We would play without buffs because we wanted to play (I was a rogue and the person I most often played with was an enchanter - and in the beginning days of EQ there was a lot of lonely play on account of not being a tank, healer, or buffer or damage dealing spellcaster). We just kept up with that attitude after leaving EQ and adventuring into other games. We focus on our gameplay and playing the game regardless of group make up.
To answer the question: Everyone gets credit.
I'm hoping that this game has strong group focus in the sense that everyone needs to be on point for the machine to work right. That means the tank needs to actively be working on threat so the DPS can actually push DPS without taking aggro (and it should be very hard to keep threat vs DPS that are going ham), DPS should be trying to skirt the limit without taking aggro, healers keeping people alive & buffed without taking threat as well, CC keeping mobs dazed and confused. Any one part dropping the ball causing the rest of the cards to fall quickly.
To be honest, going back to my EQ days (which I envision this game being more like), the most "WOW" moments never came from DPS.. they came from amazing CC via mez, stun, root or even some incredible healing (including some purple bar healing). It was almost always a group effort (which DPS plays a part of), but in that game.. no matter what your DPS was.. if you couldn't control the pull.. you're all dead.
Honestly, bards were the most amazing class. I've seen some incredible things in EQ, but well played bards took the cake. Their versatility was incredible. However, this isn't to say they were OP... because you had to be a hell of a player to maximize that class. I hope we can see bards return to that glory.
Full disclosure (I never played a bard, but I did do some purple bar healing with my cleric).
Wandidar said:Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
I think that the best group is a selfless group - and the answer is... nobody is the better player.
- Tanks should be doing everything they can to hold agro so that DPS can do as much damage as possible and so that healers have to worry less about healing the group
- DPS should be doing the most DPS they can while trying to NOT take agro from the tank. Each group is different, and DPS have to find the fine line in each one.
- Healers should be striving to keep people alive and in the fight in the most mana efficient way possible
- CC should be focused on making sure that locked down mobs stay locked down
- Pullers should be making sure they don't flood the group, but keep the group constantly killing
When everyone is doing their job in a good group, nobody is the hero. (or perhaps more positively stated, everybody is the hero)
Spot on. Add to that players who just make the game fun, who you want to be friends with- that makes the best players.
Revjak said:To be honest, going back to my EQ days (which I envision this game being more like), the most "WOW" moments never came from DPS.. they came from amazing CC via mez, stun, root or even some incredible healing (including some purple bar healing). It was almost always a group effort (which DPS plays a part of), but in that game.. no matter what your DPS was.. if you couldn't control the pull.. you're all dead.
Honestly, bards were the most amazing class. I've seen some incredible things in EQ, but well played bards took the cake. Their versatility was incredible. However, this isn't to say they were OP... because you had to be a hell of a player to maximize that class. I hope we can see bards return to that glory.
Full disclosure (I never played a bard, but I did do some purple bar healing with my cleric).
This is very much the same for me. In EQ there was never this sense of needing more DPS to burn things down if CC wasn't available. CC was almost ALWAYS available. So many classes had root that root parking was our group's go to CC. Enchanters were rare. I played a Ranger so I was usually CC. It took all of us knowing what to do and trusting the others to make it work, not DPS.
I became a pro at root parking. The Ranger's snap agro ability was second to none. I didn't contribute too much to DPS, but I played an essential role.
THIS is the gameplay I want to see in Pantheon. I do NOT want to see group content require an enchanter, or a warrior or a cleric, or any other specific class to be successful. No one class should ever be required, but only specific roles fuilled by one class or another.
DPS is a needed part of the equasion, but DPS is no more important and deserves no more credit than anyone else, because high DPS alone does not make a good player.
Evoras said:Since a 'How much damage' metric is the easiest to see, the DPS classes tend to get to the top of any chart ....
... however:As a few above have mentioned,
it isn't about topping the DPS chart in a standard meat-and-potatoes pull...
... it is when the chips are down and everything goes to Hell in a hand-cart!Does the CC spot them and nail down as many as he can ....
Does the utility player switch to off-tank or off-CC to hold the others ....
Does the buffer check hp/RR/mana levels and switch spells appropriately...
Does the pet class player burn his pet to save the healer/CC'er ...Contribution to the group relies on you knowing how to play your class and how it helps the group!
Evoras, imagines most support players are often undervalued until a crisis hits!
Exactly this, I associate this kind of situational awareness with how Robocop moves where he is looking one way but firing in another and then constantly reassesing the situation, where your victory comes from having lived, rather than how much DPS.
However, in a raid situation I dont mind seeing ,like, top 10 parses if someone is taking the time to do it. But I see it only as a fun bit of information.
It depends. It really does.
Generally speaking, if you are a primary DPS, such as a rogue, then yes, getting the top DPS matters. The reason is that a rogue is brought to a fight specifically as the primary DPS. For other classes, DPS matters in that you want the player to be able to maximize their damage while still performing their other duties.
So if a rogue can do 100 dps in an encounter, you would expect a rogue to do that. In cases like this, DPS is a good measurement of class effectiveness when that classes' purpose is to DPS.
Additionally, you have to take into account other matters. Your CC character may only be doing 40 dps, BUT they are keeping two enemies locked down. In this case their DPS isnt as important them making sure those two enemies stay CC'd. So that character doing 40 dps WHILE maintaining CC, is a good threshold. In this case, DPS isnt an effective measurement since what they provide (CC) is not something that shows up directly on the DPS chart. Id rather take someone doing 40 DPS while maintaining CC, than someone doing 50 DPS and having lapses.
So, you want players to do as much DPS as their class can allow, while also performing their primary function in the enconter. DPS should be evaluated based on what is required for an encounter and what a class is actually able to do.
kristov said: I feel like it's the team as a whole and at moments each member should have their time to wow the group. Sometimes when an intense moment comes across the healer should inspire the group by keeping it together. Sometimes the tank should be able to "show off" occasionally by taking big hits and grabbing threat off someone who slipped up with DPS (or maybe wandered into the doorway of some snake infested temple). CC should impress by turning a guaranteed wipe into something that, "Wait, can we survive this? Wow..." And DPS does what they do, "boom..." I guess what makes me most excited is when everyone pulls together and it's the group that gets it done as a team.
I would agree with Kristov here. As a wizzy, I would be proud that the combination of personal abilities and buffs would make me the best contributing wizard for a fight; class comparisson.
It would be nearly impossible to compare it with other classes (in the group) for players, unless there is a clear difference between that character and the other (group) characters.
If developers, who have access to the formula's, could devise a way to convert elements of used class aspects in a common number and then evaluate that (compensating for level of character and such), only then could you see who would top the play.
At this stage I would imagine that such system would be too complex or time consuming to develop.
But would you do that?
If the difference or contribution of a player was large enough to be noticed, then players would act on it (I hope with sugestions and respect, but often this was not the case and a player got avoided for grouping).
If the diiference was marginal, it would be easier to see who was lacking.. would you then inadvertently create the thing you're trying to avoid? Looking down on ppl?
Getting the highest nuke/heal crit in, or the kill shot/slash gives a small personal smile, not create discontent.
This is an easy one. Chanters deserve more love! :)
We don't stoop to hurting the mobs ourselves, it is beneath us, so we will never be on top of the DPS charts. We let the rest of you do the dirty work and if worse comes to worse, we "convince" a mob to do it. Long live the Anti-DPSers!!! (we will include you clerics in this with us :) )
Uvaas Sa'Avu
This really depends on the mmo being played...
But in general i have found that the the Tank and Healer are the most important followed closely by the CC and puller. Dps are a dime a dozen and generally the easiest class to play. Again it really depends on the mmo but i am speaking in generalities.
There are generally good and bad players in every role however i have found a bad tank or healer effects the group more then any other role.
Edit: Rephrasing this whole post to not be a hodgepodge of ideas.
If two players of the same class are equal in all ways except DPS, the player with the higher DPS is probably playing better. DPS is highly contextual, but generally speaking, more is always better.
Non-DPS roles generally exist to enable you to survive long enough to kill things, so that is where the emphasis on DPS comes from. It should be clear to anyone competent that these roles are required to allow DPS roles to reach their full potential.
It's a cooperative effort. That said, my first sentence still applies. If two tanks can perform the role of a tank equally, but one is miles ahead in DPS, it is obvious who would be preferred.
I tend to think it depends on the encounter. Is there a primary requisite to succeed?
If there are a ton of adds, maybe CC deserves the credit? If it hits like a truck maybe the healers deserve the credit? Is it a positioning fight maybe the tank deserves the credit? If the mob enrages and kills everyone if you don't do enough damage maybe the dps deserves the credit?
More often than not it is a group effort...
I think I have the perfect solution to this problem.
Lets have training dummies somewhere in the world that spit out a parse or show a live dps number on the dummy itself. And then not allow damage meters in therest of the game. This way min maxers get to minmax, your average joe gets to practice layering abilities for dps, you get to test out upgrades etc but damage meters and all of the bad things they bring to the game don't get to break up groups.
I'm very competitive and I love tweaking my dps on a meter so it's hard to let them go, but honestly after playing project 99 for so many years they just aren't needed. Having that utility at a training dummy would be great however. I know that showing a digital display on some training dummy in game would be immersion breaking but I think it would be worth it.
Maybe the devs could think of a better way to implement this idea.
Liav said:@Veks
Your first sentence asserts that there's a problem to be fixed in the first place, and never explains why.
Ahh I thought from all of the other replies that the problems were pretty clear, I didn't want to repeat them and create a wall of text. Lets just say that the success of a fight is dependent on far more things than a DPS meter can show and that too many people misuse them. If a player gets booted from a group for underperforming be it legitimate or not I think that goes against the spirit of such a tightly group focused game. Play project99 and you'll see that you can recognize good and bad players without them.
Not having the meters makes players value things like positioning and alertness and medding through for mana conservation a whole lot more. I know that it can suck to carry someone who is under performing but the goal should be to succeed with the team you have, even if that means coaching a player and teaching. If they don't improve then you remember that player and don't invite them next time. There is more to it than numbers. A lot of the other replies here have some really well articulated points too.
I think the idea shares a spirit with what has progressed MMOs away from what I was hoping for them to become. I've always hoped for the focus to be on the immersive cooperative accomplishments of getting X number of people together to accomplish some monumentally hard task. It seems in more modern games that this get taken for granted in short order, and quickly becomes a relative ego battle about how much better you are at doing an individual job.
I certainly appreciate people wanting to excel at what they do. I also feel it's a responsibility to try to do so when others have to share in the outcome of your lack of preparedness.. (ie: because you are terrible at what you do.)
There's also a huge part of me that wants a system that allows and encourages you to bring and celebrate good people who may not be amazing gamers to the raid/group. I was a guild leader in 40man WoW, and I loved that we could accomodate several people of basic skill levels as long as they could handle the basic fight or boss mechanics., and still be able tol feel competitive against oher guilds on the server. I don't remember almost any of the meter scores, but vividly remember sharing those experiences with people who wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise.
TL;DR = I vote the group as many others have. I would love a system that doesn't promote for people to isolate out and focus on the differences that separate the group, rather than focusing on what brought everyone together in the first place, which was the OMG, KILL SHOT, PHATLEWTS, WIN!