I've literally never seen a single person in any game claim that DPS is the only thing that matters. I have a strong feeling that someone at some point was insulted by some asshole at some point in time, and then this wave of fearmongering began about how parsing creates toxicity.
It's actually really humorous to me, because 99% of the time I see people getting yelled at, it's because they failed at something completely unrelated to DPS. Didn't joust the AE, didn't call something out, didn't cure something, didn't switch to the adds, etc.
Kumu said:It's a symphony, not a solo. Everyone's performance adds to the thrill.
Great sum up ... just because you can hear a violin more prevalently in a song, doesn't mean that it absolutely makes the song. When a teenage rockband forms, they don't decide they are just going to have a single instrument (the voice is an instrument too).
DPS = Conductor, sets rhythm
Pullers = Bass, maintains rhythm
Tanks = Strings, hinge point of instruments
Healers = Brass, supports and complements Strings
Support = Symbols, adds flavor and depth
DISCLAIMER: I am not a music theorist nor do I profess to know what the hell im talking about ... :) just a nerds extrapolation of someone else's 12 words..
Liav said:I've literally never seen a single person in any game claim that DPS is the only thing that matters.
Lemme be the 1st one then , in any mmo where the ultimate goal is to bring down a bar of health to zero, all that matter is DPS.
Fortunatly all classes can DPS :)
I like the posts from people that are making a group work while having fun. An unbalanced group can be a blast. My first EQ guild was all barbarians. Tanks and Shamans. We didn’t know any better. We got adds, rooted them and did the best we could. We weren’t fast but we were close knit, and we had fun. I don’t see anyone talking about hanging out, talking while waiting for spawn, or moving through a dungeon. It’s all smoke em fast and move on. Pantheon is supposed to be a social game. I hope there are social players out there. Sure dps is important, but there are three other roles that are important too.
Liav said:I've literally never seen a single person in any game claim that DPS is the only thing that matters. I have a strong feeling that someone at some point was insulted by some asshole at some point in time, and then this wave of fearmongering began about how parsing creates toxicity.
It's actually really humorous to me, because 99% of the time I see people getting yelled at, it's because they failed at something completely unrelated to DPS. Didn't joust the AE, didn't call something out, didn't cure something, didn't switch to the adds, etc.
I 100% agree with your first paragraph , Although i think your numbers on your final statement are far to high .
I cant tell you how mant times a caster died and tanks and healers both were telling them to hold off on aggro to wait till the tank had aggro . to not let loose with all they had at start of fight .
Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
You're asking a question that so many players in some other MMORPGs would readily shout "YES!" to, and they'd be wrong. Members of a group and raid all have a certain job, so who then is the best? The tank that keeps aggro and protects the healer and group by being the wall between the tide? The healer, who does an excellent job managing their resources and keeps the group alive while dropping that last second heal to make a save? The enchanter that mezzes the adds and helps the group maintain manageble combat? Any other utility class that aids in other ways such as snaring adds when there's no enchanter and rooting them away from the group? Or to that effect, the DPS, who may not top the DPS charts but instead paces their damage enough to kill the enemies without pulling aggro off the tank by going nuke happy or dropping AoEs and breaking mez? I'd argue that DPS is far more valuable than one that just has high numbers.
All of these classes in a good game that rewards teamwork and punishes reckless behavior have the potential to be an MVP. Who deserves more credit? Those that function as part of the unit and not as a lone wolf.
Shea said:I 100% agree with your first paragraph , Although i think your numbers on your final statement are far to high .
I cant tell you how mant times a caster died and tanks and healers both were telling them to hold off on aggro to wait till the tank had aggro . to not let loose with all they had at start of fight .
I'm referring to literal DPS, as in the measurement of damage dealt over a duration divided by the number of seconds, not as a generic term that has been co-opted to mean "classes that do damage as a primary function". If someone engages too early and gets themselves killed, that falls under the latter category (the 99%). It is only tangentially related to DPS as I'm describing it.
I have never liked DPS meters... Did the Boss die or not? If not, everyone figure it out together, help each other out, & improve on the next encounter.
I won't play another game again that is solely focused on gear score or DPS meters (ADD-ONS). Use your dang brain and natural gaming skills to win a battle and help others so you can achieve more.
To the point of the post, high DPS classes excelling at an above average rate is super important, but please don't think it is more important than (positioning, avoiding additional damage, aggro control, well-timed interruptions, crowd control, mana management, healing efficiency, cooldown management, overall game awareness) what did I leave out?
I am okay with personal meters for those that just have to statistically measure their success and can't figure it out on their own in the game world.
Questaar said:I like the posts from people that are making a group work while having fun. An unbalanced group can be a blast. My first EQ guild was all barbarians. Tanks and Shamans. We didn’t know any better. We got adds, rooted them and did the best we could. We weren’t fast but we were close knit, and we had fun. I don’t see anyone talking about hanging out, talking while waiting for spawn, or moving through a dungeon. It’s all smoke em fast and move on. Pantheon is supposed to be a social game. I hope there are social players out there. Sure dps is important, but there are three other roles that are important too.
Agree 100%... sometimes the odd class make up challenges the group in non-standard ways. It causes you to "Think outside the box" and figure out situations based on your limitations. Fun stuff indeed...
Pyye said:I have never liked DPS meters... Did the Boss die or not? If not, everyone figure it out together, help each other out, & improve on the next encounter.
I won't play another game again that is solely focused on gear score or DPS meters (ADD-ONS). Use your dang brain and natural gaming skills to win a battle and help others so you can achieve more.
Dps meters are one of the easiest tools for a raid leader or class leader too see who is underperforming. If you have 4 monks in the top 10, and 1 in the bottom 5... there's clearly an issue, and it might not be noticeable from just watching.
Games are only centered around dps meters when the players allow them to be. The game itself doesn't make that distinction, players do
Porygon said:Pyye said:I have never liked DPS meters... Did the Boss die or not? If not, everyone figure it out together, help each other out, & improve on the next encounter.
I won't play another game again that is solely focused on gear score or DPS meters (ADD-ONS). Use your dang brain and natural gaming skills to win a battle and help others so you can achieve more.
Dps meters are one of the easiest tools for a raid leader or class leader too see who is underperforming. If you have 4 monks in the top 10, and 1 in the bottom 5... there's clearly an issue, and it might not be noticeable from just watching.
Games are only centered around dps meters when the players allow them to be. The game itself doesn't make that distinction, players do
And in a game that has more depth than tank/healer/dps, where different classes play different roles, perhaps that one down at the bottom may be the only one who noticed an add coming that would have wiped the group and trained it off. I'm hoping that Pantheon has enough depth where nothing is so cut and dry as "Their meter numbers were higher than your meter numbers."
Wandidar said:Porygon said:Pyye said:I have never liked DPS meters... Did the Boss die or not? If not, everyone figure it out together, help each other out, & improve on the next encounter.
I won't play another game again that is solely focused on gear score or DPS meters (ADD-ONS). Use your dang brain and natural gaming skills to win a battle and help others so you can achieve more.
Dps meters are one of the easiest tools for a raid leader or class leader too see who is underperforming. If you have 4 monks in the top 10, and 1 in the bottom 5... there's clearly an issue, and it might not be noticeable from just watching.
Games are only centered around dps meters when the players allow them to be. The game itself doesn't make that distinction, players do
And in a game that has more depth than tank/healer/dps, where different classes play different roles, perhaps that one down at the bottom may be the only one who noticed an add coming that would have wiped the group and trained it off. I'm hoping that Pantheon has enough depth where nothing is so cut and dry as "Their meter numbers were higher than your meter numbers."
It doesn't matter how complex things get. At some point it will still come down to that. You can easily come up with hypothetical situations where it doesn't, but more often than not it does.
If one or two players are consistently parsing low for their class, they're probably doing something wrong. The fact that there will be some exceptions to this rule doesn't diminish the truth of it.
Liav said:
It doesn't matter how complex things get. At some point it will still come down to that. You can easily come up with hypothetical situations where it doesn't, but more often than not it does.
If one or two players are consistently parsing low for their class, they're probably doing something wrong. The fact that there will be some exceptions to this rule doesn't diminish the truth of it.
Yeah, I agree with that. But it feeds the perception that DPS is all that matters too, when in reality that's not the case. I don't know how you fix that perception or if you can at all. But there it is.
Feyshtey said:Liav said:It doesn't matter how complex things get. At some point it will still come down to that. You can easily come up with hypothetical situations where it doesn't, but more often than not it does.
If one or two players are consistently parsing low for their class, they're probably doing something wrong. The fact that there will be some exceptions to this rule doesn't diminish the truth of it.
Yeah, I agree with that. But it feeds the perception that DPS is all that matters too, when in reality that's not the case. I don't know how you fix that perception or if you can at all. But there it is.
It's both true and false at the same time. Rendall said it best. In a game centered around making hit points hit 0, things that do that as effectively as possible will be emphasized. Tanking, healing, buffs, etc. are all supportive roles to ensure that the hit points hit 0.
That said, it is still a cooperative effort. Some people are dim and only look at the glamorous side of things. Why are quarterbacks so popular compared to the players who give them the room they need to work with to make incredible plays? It's the same thing in a different skin.
Liav said:I've literally never seen a single person in any game claim that DPS is the only thing that matters. I have a strong feeling that someone at some point was insulted by some asshole at some point in time, and then this wave of fearmongering began about how parsing creates toxicity.
It's actually really humorous to me, because 99% of the time I see people getting yelled at, it's because they failed at something completely unrelated to DPS. Didn't joust the AE, didn't call something out, didn't cure something, didn't switch to the adds, etc.
I agree and to add to your statement I feel the DPS meters and the ilk are completely misused. It turned from a tool to help groups improve to a social marker. Now there are armies of people that think that you must do the max damage and that is the only thing that matters never mind the class or skill level. I can’t tell you how many raids I have been on that the discussion post a bad event or good one was that DPS was the only thing talked about or whom was the top hitter. Nothing along the lines of, hey that was either good or bad how do we fix it or improve on it. Humorous and sad really.
Ox
Feyshtey said:Liav said:
It doesn't matter how complex things get. At some point it will still come down to that. You can easily come up with hypothetical situations where it doesn't, but more often than not it does.
If one or two players are consistently parsing low for their class, they're probably doing something wrong. The fact that there will be some exceptions to this rule doesn't diminish the truth of it.
Yeah, I agree with that. But it feeds the perception that DPS is all that matters too, when in reality that's not the case. I don't know how you fix that perception or if you can at all. But there it is.
Biggest thing i can tihnk of it it be complex, but like you list how much ofr damage you did for a certain debuff, and put it in (), so you know to thank the classes for allowing that certain debuff being on the target and everything, basically saying yes, you dpsers did do all that damage and such, but you have to thank these classes for the buffs/debuffs that were on you and the mob, becuase without them you them wouldn't of came close to these numbers.
Feyshtey said:Yeah, I agree with that. But it feeds the perception that DPS is all that matters too, when in reality that's not the case. I don't know how you fix that perception or if you can at all. But there it is.
If there were a way to stop DPS meters/parsing logs it would probably die off. I'd say it's far more common to wipe to a boss due to people screwing up mechanics of the fight than hitting enrage because DPS is low. A simple pass/fail is far better for everyone, "Did we kill the boss? Yes? Okay we're good. No? Lets examine why." As it stands DPS is under the microscope no matter the result, even if you complete a boss people break down the numbers and cast judgements on who is "underperforming" or you get "Well we should have done that in 7 minutes not 8."
But, we are likely to be forever stuck with the DPS obsession.
Iksar said:Feyshtey said:Yeah, I agree with that. But it feeds the perception that DPS is all that matters too, when in reality that's not the case. I don't know how you fix that perception or if you can at all. But there it is.
If there were a way to stop DPS meters/parsing logs it would probably die off. I'd say it's far more common to wipe to a boss due to people screwing up mechanics of the fight than hitting enrage because DPS is low. A simple pass/fail is far better for everyone, "Did we kill the boss? Yes? Okay we're good. No? Lets examine why." As it stands DPS is under the microscope no matter the result, even if you complete a boss people break down the numbers and cast judgements on who is "underperforming" or you get "Well we should have done that in 7 minutes not 8."
But, we are likely to be forever stuck with the DPS obsession.
This might be true, but i know on a lot of raid fights with guilds ive been in, there could be a guy in the raid we realized he wouldn't hardly do anything, like do maybe 10 cast the whole fight, and more than likely depending on the mechanic, you might not even notice if it werent for the parse, granted this is a severe situation, but the dps parse sliminates it completely or is easily noticeable, one way or another, plus if they make a good parse and you list the skill comparsion by % and you see MonkA went and used Flying Kick 15% more times than MonkB but MonkB used Round Kick 25% more but MonkA did 25% more damage and such than MonkB realizes he need to priotize Flying Kick over Round Kick, you can learn alot from DPS parses, you just have to study it, and adjust from there.
Riahuf22 said:Iksar said:Feyshtey said:Yeah, I agree with that. But it feeds the perception that DPS is all that matters too, when in reality that's not the case. I don't know how you fix that perception or if you can at all. But there it is.
If there were a way to stop DPS meters/parsing logs it would probably die off. I'd say it's far more common to wipe to a boss due to people screwing up mechanics of the fight than hitting enrage because DPS is low. A simple pass/fail is far better for everyone, "Did we kill the boss? Yes? Okay we're good. No? Lets examine why." As it stands DPS is under the microscope no matter the result, even if you complete a boss people break down the numbers and cast judgements on who is "underperforming" or you get "Well we should have done that in 7 minutes not 8."
But, we are likely to be forever stuck with the DPS obsession.
This might be true, but i know on a lot of raid fights with guilds ive been in, there could be a guy in the raid we realized he wouldn't hardly do anything, like do maybe 10 cast the whole fight, and more than likely depending on the mechanic, you might not even notice if it werent for the parse, granted this is a severe situation, but the dps parse sliminates it completely or is easily noticeable, one way or another, plus if they make a good parse and you list the skill comparsion by % and you see MonkA went and used Flying Kick 15% more times than MonkB but MonkB used Round Kick 25% more but MonkA did 25% more damage and such than MonkB realizes he need to priotize Flying Kick over Round Kick, you can learn alot from DPS parses, you just have to study it, and adjust from there.
Agreed. But that DPS parse doesn't tell you anything about the healers using 25% more mana to keep melees alive because the shaman/druid/etc didnt cure or dispell debuffs on the raid. That's critical information, and it's vital credit rarely given to the non-DPS roles. There are a dozen similar examples, and in the context of the original question it matters.
The unfortunate focus on DPS and even the unfortunate perception regarding DPS is that once parsed there will be differences. In a game where there is supposed to be a distinction between classes and a differentiation between classes and that classes mean something it is inevitable that a single scoring mechanism like DPS will result in one class being at the top. It is inconceivable that there would be multiple classes that are exactly the same or exactly equivalent. There are not just four classes in this game - there are at least 12 classes to start and an expectation that there will be enough players to play those 12 classes. There may be four roles in the game (quarternary) but there definitely are more than four classes. Some classes are situated more in a particular corner of the quarternary than are others, but there are still 12 classes. And to that I will add that there is more than one class that is marked as DPS.
A single measure such as DPS as opposed to any other such measures simplifies the argument into the question, "Why have different classes for DPS when there only needs to be one?" Or even variations of "If different encounters are geared for different classes of DPS then why even bother brinign along different classes for different encounters than what is optimum?" Anyone who subscribes to a single metric will subscribe to that question and there is nothing to change that.
Thus why I believe different measures absolutely and actually matter and why different classes make the game different and anticipated. Anyone who would question "why even bother having a class such as..." because it is less than optimum would be the person that would be opposed to any variation in classes or even having more than four classes (in a quarternary) to begin with.
I sincerely am optimistic that effort is being made for there to be 12 (or more) distinct classes that all contribute in some manner to the quarternary and some aspects of gameplay will be better and some aspects of gameplay will worse for each and every class. Gameplay will be different or varied. No single measure will be the defining factor of gameplay or even content all the time and everywhere. DPS would simply be one measure that is applicable some of the time. Everyone matters.
There have been a lot of good posts here, but I feel they have gotten a little off topic.
It seems like DPS parsing was made for a couple reasons.
1. To chest thump - this seems toxic to a healthy community
2. To track player performance in Raid setting? - I wonder how much this matters in Pantheon. Have we been told if there will be a player cap on raids? This is a totally open world, no instancing.. so the more the merrier. Only guilds limiting entrace by performance would bother with such a metric, and if that is the case then the player can choose if they want to be in a guild environment like that or not.
As almost all of these posts have agreed, it's about the group. Conventional makeup or not, if they succeed in completing the set goal, everyone deserves equal credit.
The most important thing to do is avoid introducing things into the game that places blame. That's up to the community, and I think we have a pretty good one.