Trasak said:Aradune said:In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
Now this is an interesting quote from you. Do I smell threat or other encounter mechanics based on how a player is performing their role the best/worst? That would be so brutal if the system watched phase 1 of a fight for the most effective player then at the start of phase 2 several assassins spawned hard agro locked on the player. Assuming the player is not a tank it would be a combination of chain CC and DPS race to kill the assassins before they killed your most effective player. Then make the drop table always include at least one item for the class that was targeted to make players fight over who gets to die.
This would make a fun fight, and i like it. There will be plenty of fights im sure that could do this, not just like raid targets but maybe even some dungeon fights, i mean why not? constantly finding ways you challenge us and we figuring it out is half the fun.
In fact i would even support if he saw someone was doing good that the boss mechanic would cast a random debuff on people that would either make them cast slower/fizzle more or anything like this just to make certain fights harder, anything to make us feel like we have to fight and try our best to become victorous souds great to me.
Aradune said:In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
I personally think the idea of a "DPS Parse" should be completely abolished, and instead replaced with a "Performance Parse." As many have alluded to on this thread, there are a ton of variables that go into measuring player contributions for any given encounter. The more variables we can measure, and share, the easier it will be to give credit where it's due or identify opportunities for improvement. Here are some of the factors I would like to track, both for individual encounters and zone-wide (or start-time to finish) windows:
DPS
Damage done to epic mobs
Damage done to non-epic mobs
Damage done to objectives (Could be a specific mob (or type) that needs to be burned down quickly, or maybe a mecha-suit, forcefield, etc)
(Pet classes should get full credit for their pets. Common work around that I remember was naming a pet after it's owner. Have some fun memories of naming all the pets after a healer to have some fun, raise some eyebrows and show the healers some love)
Damage Mitigation/Taken
Successful blocks, parries, dodges, ripostes, absorbs, resists, reflects
Amount of damage mitigated due to armor, resistance, acclimation, buffs
Amount of damage taken from frontal/flanking/rear quadrants
Total damage taken (Can be helpful to see if certain players are consistently getting hit by an AoE that can be avoided (Bad) or picking up an add from a more vulnerable class (Good)
Control
Successful interrupts (Further clarification on who successfully interrupts specific abilities would be great)
Duration or uptime of various forms of CC such as mezz, fear, sleep, stun, charm, etc
Successful interactions (For encounters that require players to activate/deactivate something, harvest something, etc)
CC Breaks (Someone attacks a mezzed/slept mob and breaks the effect)
Heals
Amount of damage healed (With separate trackers for reactive based healing, wards, in-group heals, out-of-group heals)
Successful cures/cleanses
Successful saves (Successful death prevention triggers)
Amount of in-combat rezzes
Over heals
Buffs/Debuffs
Uptime on buffs/debuffs
Amount of unique buffs/debuffs applied
Amount of damage modified or mitigated as a result of a buff or debuff (This one sounds like a pipe-dream)
Aggro
Total threat generated
Amount of successful aggro snap-backs (How many times does a tank successfully snap aggro from a mob that was targeting someone else)
Combined duration for mob-focus on specific tanks
I'm sure others could add a bunch of their own but these are some that I was able to come up with off the top of my head. I have never really gotten into the technical or algorithmic side of parsing, but I imagine some of these being difficult or impossible to achieve. In any event, I would find information like this very helpful. The main issue I have seen with standard DPS Parses is the inflated value that a lot of players place on them, and this could be offset by showcasing other metrics that be distinguished as valuable depending on the situation/outcome.
oneADseven said:I personally think the idea of a "DPS Parse" should be completely abolished, and instead replaced with a "Performance Parse." As many have alluded to on this thread, there are a ton of variables that go into measuring player contributions for any given encounter. The more variables we can measure, and share, the easier it will be to give credit where it's due or identify opportunities for improvement. Here are some of the factors I would like to track, both for individual encounters and zone-wide (or start-time to finish) windows:
Not to belittle any of your ideas at all, because I think they're really good ideas. BUT, I have to admit that all this talk of parsing, and leaderboards, and ranking, and similar things puts me off a little. The reason why is that I have seen players take it WAY too far in so many games. Overuse of tools that try to boil everything down to numbers poisons communities and turns them toxic. Thus, I worry that putting too much of this into the game client itself is sort of like inviting the wolf into the henhouse.
I know I've said it before but something I really care a lot about is protecting the experience of new players - people who are just learning, who won't have perfect gear, or know exactly when and how to use every ability yet. And I also know that many of us (myself included, sometimes), can get *very* fixated on efficiency and achievements, to the point where it causes us to evaluate the worth of other players in terms of whether it will help us achieve our goals.
Do we want this shared world to be one where a player's value is determined by how well they parse? Where people are regularly excluded from groups, raids, and guilds because they're not making numbers, or where part of getting into those groups, raids, and guilds involves "proving" that they can make numbers? Are we prepared to accept the potential loss of players who simply don't respond well to that type of pressure, and who will feel that the game has a bad community because of it? I might be painting a darker picture here than it would really be - but it's not an unfounded one. As a guild leader in many games I have heard horror stories from new and old players about this sort of behavior. Everyone naturally wants to enjoy the game and improve their characters, but they need everyone else to give them a chance to do so.
So like I said, maybe things wouldn't turn out this way, but I feel I would be remiss not to voice my concern. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any parsing or anything like that - because let's face it, people will find ways to do it on their own. But I don't know that I want to institutionalize it in the game to the point where it's so easy that everyone is doing it.
Again, this isn't an attack on your ideas at all oneADseven, or anyone else's ideas. It's just a... i dunno, a conscience check. I guess you can say that I'm old enough and cynical enough that I don't really trust players not to use tools like this in ways that hurt the game's community long-term.
I understand what you are saying Neph. The idea behind spreading out the parse to begin with, though, is to alleviate the inflated value that people put on DPS. Much like you, I share in your concern for players and feel that way too much emphasis has been placed on DPS meters, specifically. Some classes can literally become alienated because they are defined as a DPS class, but people often forget that they bring other forms of utility to a fight that go completely unnoticed on your average tracker. That can lead to certain players/classes "appearing" as less desirable quite simply because their contributions aren't being fairly gauged. I have seen DPS charts rule the game and it honestly reinforces bad behavior. I have seen people tryhard to squeeze out a little more DPS, but in the process, completely ignore dodging AoE or performing other important group/raid functions. When you have one universal measuring stick, people get lost in the mix and rather than having a group or raid that can see the forest in the trees, people become obsessive over the DPS parser that gets posted ... literally, after every single fight. It's like watching football and the stat tracker only showing total yards for each team throughout the entire game.
If people are using this kind of data in a judgmental way while playing with beginners, they are morons. My hope is that this community will be way smarter than that, and quickly point out any ****** who goes out of their way to judge people in what should be considered a relatively casual environment, especially early on. I envision this sort of advanced tracker being used moreso by high-end raiding guilds than your average group runner. For the record, I'm not asking for this information to be built into the game UI, but rather have combat logs created in such a way to where this information can be extracted and be parsed back to those inclined enough to seek out such information. I'm almost positive that a standard DPS parser is going to exist ... and if that's the most accessible (or worse, the only) measuring stick out there, I see your concerns being proliferated due to the discriminatory and overall inaccurate nature that DPS parses are perceived in the first place. They never tell the full story, but they are often wielded as if they did. Pantheon is going to be considered a hardcore group-centric game, and in light of that, I think it's pretty important that players can evaluate these additional measurables as they reinforce the value of teamwork rather than just individual performance on a single skewed meter.
Nephele said:oneADseven said:I personally think the idea of a "DPS Parse" should be completely abolished, and instead replaced with a "Performance Parse." As many have alluded to on this thread, there are a ton of variables that go into measuring player contributions for any given encounter. The more variables we can measure, and share, the easier it will be to give credit where it's due or identify opportunities for improvement. Here are some of the factors I would like to track, both for individual encounters and zone-wide (or start-time to finish) windows:
Not to belittle any of your ideas at all, because I think they're really good ideas. BUT, I have to admit that all this talk of parsing, and leaderboards, and ranking, and similar things puts me off a little. The reason why is that I have seen players take it WAY too far in so many games. Overuse of tools that try to boil everything down to numbers poisons communities and turns them toxic. Thus, I worry that putting too much of this into the game client itself is sort of like inviting the wolf into the henhouse.
I know I've said it before but something I really care a lot about is protecting the experience of new players - people who are just learning, who won't have perfect gear, or know exactly when and how to use every ability yet. And I also know that many of us (myself included, sometimes), can get *very* fixated on efficiency and achievements, to the point where it causes us to evaluate the worth of other players in terms of whether it will help us achieve our goals.
Do we want this shared world to be one where a player's value is determined by how well they parse? Where people are regularly excluded from groups, raids, and guilds because they're not making numbers, or where part of getting into those groups, raids, and guilds involves "proving" that they can make numbers? Are we prepared to accept the potential loss of players who simply don't respond well to that type of pressure, and who will feel that the game has a bad community because of it? I might be painting a darker picture here than it would really be - but it's not an unfounded one. As a guild leader in many games I have heard horror stories from new and old players about this sort of behavior. Everyone naturally wants to enjoy the game and improve their characters, but they need everyone else to give them a chance to do so.
So like I said, maybe things wouldn't turn out this way, but I feel I would be remiss not to voice my concern. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any parsing or anything like that - because let's face it, people will find ways to do it on their own. But I don't know that I want to institutionalize it in the game to the point where it's so easy that everyone is doing it.
Again, this isn't an attack on your ideas at all oneADseven, or anyone else's ideas. It's just a... i dunno, a conscience check. I guess you can say that I'm old enough and cynical enough that I don't really trust players not to use tools like this in ways that hurt the game's community long-term.
If your in a guild that makes this toxic and belittles its players, is a bad guild or simply just not one for you, and player that takes correctly critism badly, than he is a simply just takes things to personally, but to be honest in a game you would want to perform well, not nesscary trying to be the best player in your guild, but def try to be the best player you can be, that what makes the game fun, and if i realize im playing my char the best way, but realize i could play better by simply using different abilities, or use them in a different rotation i would want to know that. if you are in a raiding guild, and you are simply just auto firing or basically being piggy backed thats not fair to the guild or the raiding party and would want to know, its nothing personal, but if your not trying to do well than, you need to be replaced, that might sound toxic to you but people want to be competitive, and if you aren't than they can simly find someone who will be.
To elaborate on my last post, I'd like to reinforce the idea that there are a lot more performance indicators than just raw DPS. Sure, if the mob has an enrage timer that will basically wipe the raid if it isn't killed in X amount of time, DPS meters can be used to measure the effectiveness and tell the story for that encounter. I really do think we need to get away from that mentality being embraced as a whole, though. It's quite probable that there will be 2 wizards (or any other class) participating in the same fight and when all is said and done, that DPS parse gets linked. One wizard put up 10% more damage than their counterpart, but if it can be demonstrated that they also took more unneccessary damage, that they weren't casting their debuffs, etc, it can paint a better picture for folks to analyze. When DPS meters are used as the end all be all, players are often incentivized to tunnel vision for maximum damage at the expense of committing to a broader contribution.
A lot of players have trained themselves over the years to see the forest through the trees when it comes to this sort of thing, and those players are great to have on your team. They sacrifice their overall DPS potential for the sake of maximizing the true value of their class, and I would love to see these players get the recognition they deserve. Having a broad range of variables to pull data from would allow players to better justify making correct decisions. It would also put more emphasis on player skill by measuring their awareness, responsiveness, and commitment to maximizing their utility. When the fight is over, you can look at the fine details and say ... okay, this wizard may have done less damage, but they were also channeling some power to another character, helping clear out objectives, locking down mobs with root, etc. People are going to get judged one way or another, and I think it would be a refreshing change if the panel were basing their feedback on the big picture.
Here is my feeling on DPS parsers (or any parsers for that matter).
In a raid, they are a tool, and should be one of many tools used to determine any necessary changes to make the raid team more efficient. If you're looking to make your raid more efficient, you should also have other things, such class leaders that also pay attention to what people of their class are doing (for example). In raid situations, the parsers can be helpful. Even so, they never tell you the whole story no matter how much information you get from them.
In group environments, they are pretty worthless in my opinion. This is because in raid environments you should have every class/ability/whatever covered for the encounter you're doing, and everyone should be doing the job they were assigned. In a group environment, you likely don't have *everything* covered perfectly, and frequently other people have to help cover. And even if you do have everything covered, people may still have to fill multiple rolls. For example, you may have an enchanter in your group, but your wizard may occasionally have to help out by rooting mobs, which reduces the wizard's DPS parse because he was busy casting other spells. In a group situation the only metric that matters is whether or not your completing enough content with the least amount of deaths possible.
Edit: Grammar fix
@oneADseven I agree, DPS meters, while useful do not show the whole picture.
Often logs are useful for understanding what tactics the mob is using and therefore what tactics the players need to be doing to succeed.
My biggest complaint with DPS meteres is that it incentivizes DPS to pull agro and ping pong the mob around, potentially wiping the group/raid. Sometimes its not all about DPS, its about making it to the finish line with as much resource left over for the next mob as possible. Endurance vs burn.
I'm not sure how this could be accomplished via a log, but it would be nice to see stats for casters such as most efficient use of mana per damage done or health healed. Or for DPS classes, damage done vs damage taken, where DPS should not be taking any damage if they are doing their job correctly.
Along with who is casting debufs, are we getting damage shields dispelled, mobs slowed quickly, CC locking down mobs and how quickly and more importantly who is breaking the CC, the tank or some random DPS not paying attention?
azaya said:@oneADseven I agree, DPS meters, while useful do not show the whole picture.
Often logs are useful for understanding what tactics the mob is using and therefore what tactics the players need to be doing to succeed.
My biggest complaint with DPS meteres is that it incentivizes DPS to pull agro and ping pong the mob around, potentially wiping the group/raid. Sometimes its not all about DPS, its about making it to the finish line with as much resource left over for the next mob as possible. Endurance vs burn.
I'm not sure how this could be accomplished via a log, but it would be nice to see stats for casters such as most efficient use of mana per damage done or health healed. Or for DPS classes, damage done vs damage taken, where DPS should not be taking any damage if they are doing their job correctly.
Along with who is casting debufs, are we getting damage shields dispelled, mobs slowed quickly, CC locking down mobs and how quickly and more importantly who is breaking the CC, the tank or some random DPS not paying attention?
The good raiders reaize there is a difference between do great dps, and aggro control, so honestly this has nothing to do with a dps parse, this is simple called common sense not to pull aggro from the tank, becuase for one he might of been the highest dps but if he only lasted minute in a 10 minute fight than he ultimately did less damage than a tank and probably close to a healer dps, so therefore, we know to control our dps. this is a Player error on his side not a dps parse fault.
Plus many of us have mentioned that we want abigger clearer view of what we want our parse to be like, along with a timestamp and such of when abilties were being used, and all the other gimmicks, plus i would even mind a over usage % compared to the whole grp/raid like who was the most active.
Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
I would like to see a game where dps wasnt a role , just let every char be a little dps and toghter that becomes the dps role, dont know if this can be done but think it would be more fun for more players.
Grizzly said:Kilsin said:Does topping the DPS charts necessarily make you a better player, or do the other members of the group/raid (Tanks, Healers, Crowd Control) deserve more love? #PRF
I would like to see a game where dps wasnt a role , just let every char be a little dps and toghter that becomes the dps role, dont know if this can be done but think it would be more fun for more players.
This sounds like WoW almost, every class does a ton of dps, the dps specs, tank specs, shoot even some healing specs do a ton of damage.
Plus like i said in another thread i believe dps specs sacrafice everything to bring forth good dps, no grp buffs, no healing, nothing but damage, and some self buffs to help them in survivablitty, or extra damage, that way they depend on other roles to do their job, support utilty classes would act like the glue to all good groups/raids, healers keeps us alive almong with some good buffs, and the tanks make sure that everyone is safe from getting hit and postition them so fighting them become easier.
oneADseven said:Aradune said:In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
I personally think the idea of a "DPS Parse" should be completely abolished, and instead replaced with a "Performance Parse." As many have alluded to on this thread, there are a ton of variables that go into measuring player contributions for any given encounter. The more variables we can measure, and share, the easier it will be to give credit where it's due or identify opportunities for improvement. Here are some of the factors I would like to track, both for individual encounters and zone-wide (or start-time to finish) windows:
DPS
Damage done to epic mobs
Damage done to non-epic mobs
Damage done to objectives (Could be a specific mob (or type) that needs to be burned down quickly, or maybe a mecha-suit, forcefield, etc)
(Pet classes should get full credit for their pets. Common work around that I remember was naming a pet after it's owner. Have some fun memories of naming all the pets after a healer to have some fun, raise some eyebrows and show the healers some love)
Damage Mitigation/Taken
Successful blocks, parries, dodges, ripostes, absorbs, resists, reflects
Amount of damage mitigated due to armor, resistance, acclimation, buffs
Amount of damage taken from frontal/flanking/rear quadrants
Total damage taken (Can be helpful to see if certain players are consistently getting hit by an AoE that can be avoided (Bad) or picking up an add from a more vulnerable class (Good)
Control
Successful interrupts (Further clarification on who successfully interrupts specific abilities would be great)
Duration or uptime of various forms of CC such as mezz, fear, sleep, stun, charm, etc
Successful interactions (For encounters that require players to activate/deactivate something, harvest something, etc)
CC Breaks (Someone attacks a mezzed/slept mob and breaks the effect)
Heals
Amount of damage healed (With separate trackers for reactive based healing, wards, in-group heals, out-of-group heals)
Successful cures/cleanses
Successful saves (Successful death prevention triggers)
Amount of in-combat rezzes
Over heals
Buffs/Debuffs
Uptime on buffs/debuffs
Amount of unique buffs/debuffs applied
Amount of damage modified or mitigated as a result of a buff or debuff (This one sounds like a pipe-dream)
Aggro
Total threat generated
Amount of successful aggro snap-backs (How many times does a tank successfully snap aggro from a mob that was targeting someone else)
Combined duration for mob-focus on specific tanks
I'm sure others could add a bunch of their own but these are some that I was able to come up with off the top of my head. I have never really gotten into the technical or algorithmic side of parsing, but I imagine some of these being difficult or impossible to achieve. In any event, I would find information like this very helpful. The main issue I have seen with standard DPS Parses is the inflated value that a lot of players place on them, and this could be offset by showcasing other metrics that be distinguished as valuable depending on the situation/outcome.
The WoW damage meters show nearly everything you are asking for (with the exception of flanked damage) and more.
To people that are critiquing damage meters to the point of "not wanting them", i dont really understand what your concern is. You are afraid that people will put too much of a focus on damage meters? Yet the community itself is the ones that dictate what people do or do not put a focus on. If you make your group and dont care about damage meters, then why does it matter? Are you afraid of joining a guild that puts a primary focus on damage meters? Are you afraid you will not be able to maximize the efficiency of your class and compete with others on meters? I just dont really understand the hatred of them.
Porygon said:The WoW damage meters show nearly everything you are asking for (with the exception of flanked damage) and more.
To people that are critiquing damage meters to the point of "not wanting them", i dont really understand what your concern is. You are afraid that people will put too much of a focus on damage meters? Yet the community itself is the ones that dictate what people do or do not put a focus on. If you make your group and dont care about damage meters, then why does it matter? Are you afraid of joining a guild that puts a primary focus on damage meters? Are you afraid you will not be able to maximize the efficiency of your class and compete with others on meters? I just dont really understand the hatred of them.
I think the hatred probably comes from some people's desire in some MMORPGs to link DPS parses after every battle and then use that as a bludgeoning tool to beat someone over the head for not scoring at the top rather than maybe offering some tips to improve. Whether you're doing one thing or another, that in and of itself is annoying, so not so much for the meter as say the perosn using it and to what end. However, I'm ok with using that stuff to fine tune your own performance, I just dislike people that use it as I mentioned (I play tank and healer most often, DPS on occasion).
In any case, regardless the parser, you only get numbers which still doesn't give you performance. As I stated in another thread, some nuke happy wizard can top the charts all day but he's going to be far less usefull to a group than one that paces his damage and gets less DPS to not pull aggro or break mezzes by spamming AOEs to pad out those numbers and wipe the group half the time. And I have seen all of that stuff I listed first-hand multiple times. PUGs are fun like that. :p
Unless you're in a raid environment, or a grouping environment that is very goal-oriented (killing hardmode group content, for instance) then you're probably a moron for posting parses anywhere anyway.
95% of arguments against parsing can be summed up as "a portion of the playerbase are morons". For every guy who's linking parses for every mob in a casual grind group (you can kick him and tell him he's a moron, by the way, you have my permission) there's another guy standing around practically AFK soaking up xp.
I totally get it. It is very obnoxious if some tool is posting parses in group chat for mobs that literally no one with a brain gives a **** about. I've had to deal with this too. The simple solution is to tell them to stop linking parses nobody gives a **** about, and kick them from the group if they don't comply.
If it wasn't a parse, someone that dim would probably be doing something else equally obnoxious. It's an attention-seeking behavior. Or rather, a systemic behavior. Installing parsing software isn't going to drastically reduce your intelligence to the level that you feel it's valid to post parses of a green trash mob, I assure you.
If you become a member of a goal-oriented team for difficult group content, and raid content in general, then you are inviting scrutiny. May Cazic-Thule have mercy on your soul if you believe you don't deserve to be scrutinized in some echelons of gameplay. Even then, if it wasn't your parse, it'd be your gear or any other number of things because the ultimate goal of these types of teams is progression, otherwise known as increasing numbers associated with your character (DPS included).
Someone already said what I issue i have with a parser. Folks start focusing on that aspect so much so that they develope entire attitudes towards their own DPS. I have discussed with DPS classes before that they need to pay attention to the current fight because they keep ripping agro. I advise using the agro-meter (EQ2) and then adjusting their attacks based on that info. Sometimes, you need to just stop your DPS for about 2 seconds. The responses I get back from those folks so intent on their DPS for the parser? (*&^( you, agro is the tank's responsibility. If he can't hold agro then we need a better tank. This when all you gotta do is stop DPS for a second when you see you are about to rip agro. I play tanks, healers, CC, DPS, everything. Every single class uses that agro meter. I will tank my parse if it means we win a fight. Some folks become so enamored with their parse that they would rather wipe than lower their DPS in any way.
When I play my tank and I get one of these types of players i will /tell them to watch their meter (suprisingly, a LOT of them don't even know what it is) or I swear to the gods the next time you rip agro I will let it kill you. I follow through. Long story short - I don't play ANY of my characters to top the parse. I play ALL of my characters to win the current fight.
If you need to explain to a player on a DPS class that DPS isn't everything, they're probably a mediocre player to begin with. Parsers don't have anything to do with it, you're just describing incompetence.
Also, I'm confused, you're telling them to "watch their meter", but they don't even know what that is, but parsers are still the problem? This just reinforces my point.
Nephretiti said:Someone already said what I issue i have with a parser. Folks start focusing on that aspect so much so that they develope entire attitudes towards their own DPS. I have discussed with DPS classes before that they need to pay attention to the current fight because they keep ripping agro. I advise using the agro-meter (EQ2) and then adjusting their attacks based on that info. Sometimes, you need to just stop your DPS for about 2 seconds. The responses I get back from those folks so intent on their DPS for the parser? (*&^( you, agro is the tank's responsibility. If he can't hold agro then we need a better tank. This when all you gotta do is stop DPS for a second when you see you are about to rip agro. I play tanks, healers, CC, DPS, everything. Every single class uses that agro meter. I will tank my parse if it means we win a fight. Some folks become so enamored with their parse that they would rather wipe than lower their DPS in any way.
When I play my tank and I get one of these types of players i will /tell them to watch their meter (suprisingly, a LOT of them don't even know what it is) or I swear to the gods the next time you rip agro I will let it kill you. I follow through. Long story short - I don't play ANY of my characters to top the parse. I play ALL of my characters to win the current fight.
I think a lot of the varying opinions stems from two varying perspectives: one taking threat as its own mechanic to manage, the other perspective being where threat isn't even a factor. The latter being what you typically find in modern day MMO's. The damage dealer's highlighted job is to do damage, and the only deviation from that is specifically designed boss mechanics.
Once you bring threat in as its own mechanic, the dynamics of combat changes dramatically. You are no longer free to just do as much damage as you possibly can, since if you do, you'll likely end up dead by pulling threat from whatever target you're fighting. Threat should naturally primarly be the tank's responsiblity, but I think it's important to discuss the impact this can have on other players agency to play their role as well. In the case of a poor tank, the other group members only course of action to control the situation is to stop doing anything all together. Therefore I think its important to make it a shared responsiblity, using threat as a mechanic to create interdependence between classes and roles. For example, Enchanters could have an ability or buff to transfer threat from X to Y target.
Menubrea said:Once you bring threat in as its own mechanic, the dynamics of combat changes dramatically. You are no longer free to just do as much damage as you possibly can, since if you do, you'll likely end up dead by pulling threat from whatever target you're fighting. Threat should naturally primarly be the tank's responsiblity, but I think it's important to discuss the impact this can have on other players agency to play their role as well. In the case of a poor tank, the other group members only course of action to control the situation is to stop doing anything all together. Therefore I think its important to make it a shared responsiblity, using threat as a mechanic to create interdependence between classes and roles. For example, Enchanters could have an ability or buff to transfer threat from X to Y target.
+1 This is how i would expect them to design threat in this game, putting you blinkers on and only focusing on dps is probably going end badly, until the tank has established a ton of agro anyways. I guess the role a parse has in this is tempting people to start hard and early on dps and wind up dead or frustrating the tank and healer
Liav said:If you need to explain to a player on a DPS class that DPS isn't everything, they're probably a mediocre player to begin with. Parsers don't have anything to do with it, you're just describing incompetence.
This is kind of the entire point.
If someone is putting their focus on meters as opposed to aggro control or cc, they need to be labeled as such.
I would regularly challenge people in wow on my rogue to dps race and stay well within the confines of the tanks aggro. It shouldn't be that hard!
Porygon said:oneADseven said:Aradune said:In all seriousness, however, great thread. We are definitely listening. I think there are several good approaches to this issue and letting group and guild leaders set things up is one of the answers. But in terms of the game fairly and accurately determining who gets credit for what is incredibly important -- nothing yet to set in stone -- so many ideas, both internal and also coming from all of you guys -- all of which need to best tested during PA, alpha, and beta.
I personally think the idea of a "DPS Parse" should be completely abolished, and instead replaced with a "Performance Parse." As many have alluded to on this thread, there are a ton of variables that go into measuring player contributions for any given encounter. The more variables we can measure, and share, the easier it will be to give credit where it's due or identify opportunities for improvement. Here are some of the factors I would like to track, both for individual encounters and zone-wide (or start-time to finish) windows:
DPS
Damage done to epic mobs
Damage done to non-epic mobs
Damage done to objectives (Could be a specific mob (or type) that needs to be burned down quickly, or maybe a mecha-suit, forcefield, etc)
(Pet classes should get full credit for their pets. Common work around that I remember was naming a pet after it's owner. Have some fun memories of naming all the pets after a healer to have some fun, raise some eyebrows and show the healers some love)
Damage Mitigation/Taken
Successful blocks, parries, dodges, ripostes, absorbs, resists, reflects
Amount of damage mitigated due to armor, resistance, acclimation, buffs
Amount of damage taken from frontal/flanking/rear quadrants
Total damage taken (Can be helpful to see if certain players are consistently getting hit by an AoE that can be avoided (Bad) or picking up an add from a more vulnerable class (Good)
Control
Successful interrupts (Further clarification on who successfully interrupts specific abilities would be great)
Duration or uptime of various forms of CC such as mezz, fear, sleep, stun, charm, etc
Successful interactions (For encounters that require players to activate/deactivate something, harvest something, etc)
CC Breaks (Someone attacks a mezzed/slept mob and breaks the effect)
Heals
Amount of damage healed (With separate trackers for reactive based healing, wards, in-group heals, out-of-group heals)
Successful cures/cleanses
Successful saves (Successful death prevention triggers)
Amount of in-combat rezzes
Over heals
Buffs/Debuffs
Uptime on buffs/debuffs
Amount of unique buffs/debuffs applied
Amount of damage modified or mitigated as a result of a buff or debuff (This one sounds like a pipe-dream)
Aggro
Total threat generated
Amount of successful aggro snap-backs (How many times does a tank successfully snap aggro from a mob that was targeting someone else)
Combined duration for mob-focus on specific tanks
I'm sure others could add a bunch of their own but these are some that I was able to come up with off the top of my head. I have never really gotten into the technical or algorithmic side of parsing, but I imagine some of these being difficult or impossible to achieve. In any event, I would find information like this very helpful. The main issue I have seen with standard DPS Parses is the inflated value that a lot of players place on them, and this could be offset by showcasing other metrics that be distinguished as valuable depending on the situation/outcome.
The WoW damage meters show nearly everything you are asking for (with the exception of flanked damage) and more.
To people that are critiquing damage meters to the point of "not wanting them", i dont really understand what your concern is. You are afraid that people will put too much of a focus on damage meters? Yet the community itself is the ones that dictate what people do or do not put a focus on. If you make your group and dont care about damage meters, then why does it matter? Are you afraid of joining a guild that puts a primary focus on damage meters? Are you afraid you will not be able to maximize the efficiency of your class and compete with others on meters? I just dont really understand the hatred of them.
This.
When i think of "DPS" meter i think of ACT. It literally showed EVERYTHING. Cures per second/DPS/HPS someones rotation and who cast what at an exact moment in time to show who F up. I cringe at people who say it shouldnt be in game.
I hope you guys know that virtualy all top guilds use programs like that to discect fights for world first kills. Any kill you guys got after the top guilds killed it and posted how to kill it used a program like that, so in the end it helped you too.
I'm not sure why you guys think others dont get credit and its all DPS. Many fights were cure intensive/heal instensive and we always posted those parses and slapped them on the back. Many fights were linked mobs that had to be taken down together within a few % points of health or you got a huge AOE that wiped the guild.
There are tons of examples of when DPS was second or a third concern. That is not to say DPS doesnt matter, you have to understand on some fights with enough DPS you can by-pass or mitigate a lot of the mechanics. This is why these programs are a HUGE plus to any raiding guild.
Maximum DPS has it's place, but for most fights max dps is a nuisance for the tank who will constantly be losing aggro and of course that becomes a problem for the healer who is forced to push tons of heals on the max dps guy which in turns causes the healer to get aggro etc. Far more important is having DPS that knows how to avoid damage, when to burn and when to hold back. As for who deserves more credit I would say it depends on which MMORPG it is on which role is the most important...in EQ I would say the enchanter was king, in WoW the warrior was king (later expacs paladin, dk, druid, etc). A good enchanter made things a cakewalk in EQ, a good tank in WoW did the same.
The tougher the encounter the more important all the roles become. Usually max level group and raid content is where you see the need for every person to perform in order to win. A tank is not going to carry the group/raid if the boss is spawning adds all over, putting DoTs on random players, and blasting the raid with AoEs.
I really appreciate tools like ACT. Not as a tool to determine ‘credit’ which I think is a useless metric, but rather as a guide to self improvement and to guide strat efficiency. In any really competitive guild, everyone knows who is doing their job and who is dead weight. The parsing may give independent confirmation of this, but everyone already knows.