I thought the announcement made by Brad in the previous stream would make people talk on the official forums, maybe I've missed it? I honestly was disappointed with this design approach. The Auction House in the modern MMORPG design philosophy was a major factor in cutting the player-to-player interaction. It destroyed the reason why people connected in older MMOs like EverQuest. With the Auction House you honestly have no reason to care about the community... you will simply go to an in-game software and search for the best price out there in a single click eliminating possible haggling, bargaining, talking to people, and hence creating a social experience. That lost social opportunity doesn't comply with the theme of Pantheon being a more social MMO.
What do you guys think?
Injecting a social component into every single game mechanic isn't necessary to have a successful social environment. Not only that, but in EQ2 I can remember numerous times sending people tells to get a discount on something they had on the broker. It was a pretty common thing to happen, especially if it was an individual that harvested a lot and sold rare harvesting materials.
If they had 70 listed for 500p/ea, I'd send them a tell asking if they'd sell me 30 for 450p/ea. Often they would agree.
Standing around in the EC tunnel to sell stuff just takes time away that could be spent doing other things, social or not.
Liav said:Standing around in the EC tunnel to sell stuff just takes time away that could be spent doing other things, social or not.but it gives you something to do that pays off (obviously or people wouldn't do it) and does not crowd the dungeons. i've never been a trader in any MMO, but i liked the fact that the EC tunnel trading hub existed in EQ. it created one of those memorable locations and it had a special feel being in EC. i also like the EQ bazaar better than modern auction hauses.
edit: to anwser the question of this thread: i don't care really. since i'm not a trader it's more comfortable to look into an auction house when i want to buy something. i don't think it has a serious impact on my enjoyment of the game either way. the biggest advantage i see for non-auction houses is that it gives people something to do that does not crowd dungeons.
I can see both sides to this.
One one hand, the "EC Tunnel" was a really interesting dynamic in the original EQ1. It absolutely created an economic microcosm in which its own rules of engagment developed and evolved over time. It was a bit exciting to make the trek there with a big bag of "stuff" to sell or trade in the hopes of procuring something you needed, whether it be cash or something else shiny and new. But, it required time. And while some people were able to devote the time to selling and auctioning and then still found time for adventuring, a lot of people could not.
On the other hand, an auction system alleviates the need to always be online when trying to sell, or at least not being actively online (ala the Nexus Bazaar) and allows all players who spend time and effort to aquire items, skill up their trades and make beautiful things to benefit from all that work even if they don't have the luxury of being online as much as others. On the downside, there isn't as much interaction (you can still engage someone offline through mail and that sort of thing to trigger a "barter" diaglogue), so the social aspect of it is lessened.
I think the choice on which way to go is really made in terms of how the mechanism fits in context with the rest of the game. Perhaps this choice was made to encourage people to spend more time with groups and working on tradeskills rather than selling and bartering, because the content is being designed to require that amount of time. Perhaps most players have indicated this is what they want.
Whatever the case, I've been impressed with the level of engagement that devs here have with the player community, and believe that if the choice they made ends up having better alternatives, they'll work to make ammends in the long run.
It has been discussed to death actually. The only thing we can do is wait and test out what they have in store, we don't really know how they will have it work. Here is a 34 page (now locked) discussion on it if you'd like to look it over: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house/view/page/1
Kilsin saidThis thread has now run its course and there is little left to discuss until we get into the game and test it, so I will go ahead and close it, please do not create a new thread on this subject or I twill be removed without warning.
I was also disappointed, but not because I think there's anything inherently evil or wrong with auction houses. I'm just concerned they might make it pure convenience without any drawbacks. If the auction house does not have a significant tax associated with it, that will kill traditional trading as we know it. For trader gameplay to exist, it has to be financially beneficial to buy and sell manually over the automated system.
Laura said: ... you will simply go to an in-game software and search for the best price out there in a single click eliminating possible haggling, bargaining, talking to people, and hence creating a social experience. ...
Your indignation is based on a false premise. A search interface does not imply instant buying nor instant delivery. Simply knowing who is selling what, where, and for how much just reduces the chance of being ripped off. Seems like a good thing to me..
There are many ways to implement a market, bazaar, auction house, or similar buy & sell interface that isn't the equivalent of a fraudulent stock market.
This is already being talked about in the feedback thread, but since we're now making new threads for each topic I feel the need to re-post.
"I've always said that anytime you put in a mechanic that allows you to not play the game, it's a mistake. Putting in an auction house does just that. If you are allowing players to just AFK and still make game progress (of any kind), it's a mistake.
Players should be present (in game) to interact for buying/selling."
Well since the decision to have local Auction houses has already been made, we have to wait until alpha to give feedback.
But I'll keep saying this, there should be some kind of compromise/disavantage for taking advantage of the automated sell system. My suggestions are a penalty for buying/selling things in the auction house, 10-20% of the orignal price goes to the auction house plus fees for posting items, and a 8-12 hours wait for the arrival of the purchased items to the buyers (basically buyers can pick thier stuff up after some hours).
This way selling items in person is still more benefitial and desirable, but there's another easier and more expensive option.
I'm torn on it... I think having mini auction houses around the world is a fun idea but players will naturally decide on a location thats best for everyone ( like we did in EQ) and that will become the trading place and main auction house, I fear the other ones will become un-used unless they can come up with a REALLY good reason to take advantage of the other auction spots. We are creatures of convienience and habbit, there needs to be incentives for going all over the world to conduct buisness, and if there isn't a demand for it in some obsure place on Terminus, well than we end up right where we left off in our new "Tunnel" on the planet.
On the flip side, I know what it is to want to just go throw all your stuff up on a world AH... But I also know that is very easy for people to look at these AH prices and drive them down by oversaturating the market...and this seems to happen in every game thats ever had an AH. The thing that gives me hope is that the devs have said there will be other things we can do with the items we no longer need than selling them which leads me to believe we actually may see less devaluation overtime VIA the market, I think that was a brilliant move...Provided it works out the way they assume it will. (I have high hopes.) Nevertheless, They havent accounted for the things that they might assume wont be very valuable in the game yet, the things that the players will figure out is valuable as we play, and I fear those are the things which will be the issue in an AH. But this is all speculation, so I'm not trying to get my panies up in a bunch here yet just mearly thinking this through and hoping the devs have thought of these very things as well.
Regardless of my concerns, I feel very positive about the direction they are going and I have faith in their team and the devotion to their passion and work.
vjek said:Laura said: ... you will simply go to an in-game software and search for the best price out there in a single click eliminating possible haggling, bargaining, talking to people, and hence creating a social experience. ...Your indignation is based on a false premise. A search interface does not imply instant buying nor instant delivery. Simply knowing who is selling what, where, and for how much just reduces the chance of being ripped off. Seems like a good thing to me..
There are many ways to implement a market, bazaar, auction house, or similar buy & sell interface that isn't the equivalent of a fraudulent stock market.
This is correct. I think a lot was lost in translation due to not really elaborating on what a "local" auction house means. It is common for certain buzzwords like "Auction House" to trigger comparisons to features in other games that were poorly implemented and then without really thinking critically about it, simply assume that it can only be implemented just as poorly in Pantheon. Most if not all MMO's have global auction houses. There will not be a global AH in Pantheon and it's a very important distinction. In most games, it doesn't matter what in what city you post something on the AH. Anyone else in the world, no matter where they are, can search the database of all AH's on the server and easily place a bid. However, in Pantheon, each AH will operate individually. Therefore, each will have its own small-scale economy, rather than one big global economy. More than likely, you will not be able to see or bid on any item that was not listed by a player at that exact location in that city/town. The goal seems to be to strike a balance between removing some of the tedium from manually selling each item, while still also requiring a certain amount of travel and market know-how.
From Aradune:
"We want travel and remote regions to matter and for trade to take place in different areas and to see items fluctuate in value depending on how hard it was or wasn't to obtain and then bring to the area where you want to sell it. A player driven economy, as I've said many times, is paramount to Pantheon."
(Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house/view/page/3)
Bear in mind that certain crafting mats and other loot will only be available in certain climates and parts of the world. It stands to think that you could collect a rare material that can only be gathered in one part of the world and then make a long, dangerous journey to a local AH on the other side of the world and then sell it for a high profit. Think of it as a "convenience fee" for those that don't want to make that journey and effort. While maybe that same material would usually sell for a lot less at the auction house a lot closer to where it was collected. This sort of thing would not be possible with a global auction house. And as previously mentioned, there may or may not be an instant buyout option and we don't yet know what delivery will be like or any other mechanics. But I fully expect it to be pretty different from what most people would think of when they hear the term "Auction House" in an MMO.
Gamerchick said:I'm torn on it... I think having mini auction houses around the world is a fun idea but players will naturally decide on a location thats best for everyone ( like we did in EQ) and that will become the trading place and main auction house, I fear the other ones will become un-used unless they can come up with a REALLY good reason to take advantage of the other auction spots. We are creatures of convienience and habbit, there needs to be incentives for going all over the world to conduct buisness, and if there isn't a demand for it in some obsure place on Terminus, well than we end up right where we left off in our new "Tunnel" on the planet.
I would probably be fine either way honestly. That being said, every MMO in the past decade+ have had an AH of some kind to my knowledge. Now that everyone has had that for a long time and is used to it, I feel like it would cause huge backlash to not have one at all. I like the idea of a type of compromise such as Brad brought up in the stream of having regional AH's. This way you can't just browse everything that everyone on the server has for sale in a central spot. However, there is obviously the "player x factor there." Players may tend to gravitate towards one specific region to buy and sell 90% of the time, which would more or less nullify the point of having regional AH's. It will be up to the devs to make sure that traveling to that one region isn't too fast or easy, and that all of the regions of the world are equally appealing in order to disperse player population and keep all regional AH's active.
Edited to add quote from Gamerchick since I basically said the same thing she did in the beginning of her post. Beat me to the punch and posted while I was typing mine up :P
20% tax on AH sales and a delay on receiving purchases seems like a good compromise to keep trading in person alive.
As others mentioned, the problem with local AH is that if everyone uses the same one, it's basically the same premise. Unless travel remains a significant timesink everyone will simply bounce back and forth to whatever major city becomes the hotspot. To discourage that, they might try giving players a tax break while selling on their own local AH from their region of origin. They could also tie the tax to faction to give players another incentive to increase their standing in other cities.
It is true that we don't know exactly how the auction houses will be implemented in Pantheon, but we do know that transactions will most likely be made through a selling interface instead of person to person. Coming back to EC tunnel felt like coming home at the end of the day. It was relaxing to see all of the selling activity and you also felt like you might find an exceptional deal just because you were in the right place at the right time. You don't have as many of those moments with an auction house system. Not to mention that it will be a lot easier for addons to be developed to track inventory prices for an auction UI than through face to face exchanges. I hate systems that take the player knowledge out of the economy and automate buying low and selling high.
Hopefully the Pantheon team will take all of this into consideration during the testing in Alpha.
If you've read any of my posts you'd know that I stand with having no AH in the game. The absence of an AH creates more opportunities for social experiences and global AHs cause damage to the economy.
The most important factor here is the economy. While creating more avenues to create social bonds imo is always a good thing I don't believe Pantheon will be any less great if it contains auction houses as long as they are done right. But the economy is important and if the auction house system is done poorly it can hurt Pantheon's economy. I always feel uncomfortable bringing up other MMO titles especially ones that may release around the same time as PRF but Ashes of Creation sounds like they are doing the economy and the trade of items right. Whether or not they are using auction houses, I am not 100% sure, they sound like they are at least going to have NPCs who handle the trade of items. And the system they are using is almost a carbon copy of what I've been saying on how bartering should be handled IF an MMO were to use auction houses and/or NPC vendors to handle trading. All the way to even how resources are handled where even resources and harvested materials are regional bound.
Keep mats regional/local. Keep AHs regional/local. It's that simple. This creates economies where individual regions have their own unique specific goods for trade and helps keep the cost of items at a real price point. If you have a town/city far up in the mountains far from any body of water it should not be able to sell fish or sea/ocean/water based products identical to a seaport town. The seaport towns should always have a leg up on the fish market due to their location unless you have some form of caravan, or player controlled system, that transports large shipments of goods to areas void of bodies of water.
Dullahan said:20% tax on AH sales and a delay on receiving purchases seems like a good compromise to keep trading in person alive.
To discourage that, they might try giving players a tax break while selling on their own local AH from their region of origin. They could also tie the tax to faction to give players another incentive to increase their standing in other cities.
I like this. I also welcome a 'city tax' if you would. Where if you are selling items in a town that is either not your racial home town or not the town where your personal home is located at then you pay a higher tax. Or vice versa you pay a lesser tax if you do sell in your home town.
I would maybe press a bit higher on the flat tax for using an AH in general. 20% may not really be enough to curb people into selling in person. But obviously I'm no expert on that and alpha/beta would probably be a better place to test that.
We have the year 2017 and not 2001 anymore. Today it is very easy to make a website with an auction house, which would by also global by design. There are already many CMS templates for this. And you do not need to be in game to buy/sell things. If VR's auction houses or other ways to sell things are too limited then i will ignore them completely. And i guess many other players will also do this.
Greetings
I am extremely happy with the direction VR is going with the auction houses. Regional auction houses were used in FFXI and they worked awesome. There were 3 major cities and never at any point was a single one of them considered "the main auction house." Each auction house had it's own economy of sorts and it was commonplace for people to play the markets against each other. In my opinion, auction houses actually open up a ton of trade scenarios. As others have mentioned, I always sent messages to people who were selling something I wanted in an attempt to haggle. This was great because sometimes they would be available to do business right then and there, while other times they were at the bottom of the dungeon. Placing items on the auction house allows people to showcase their wares to the world and then continue on with their day. If someone is satisified with the deal offered, they will buy it on the spot. If they want to haggle, great, you have their information ... simply reach out to them and see what you can do. Information is power and having an auction house functionality in the game equips players with a ton of information.
I think there should be a listing fee every time you put something up for sale. As far as the auction house cut goes, I think that should vary. Could faction be a factor? Perhaps delivery time could be another? I think the initial fee for an AH transaction should be 15%. If you want the item delivered immediately, perhaps that fee is increased to 20%? Also, I think it would be really cool if these fees could change depending on server events. Depending on player activity in a given area, perhaps certain cities would be willing to temporarily reduce their fees. Likewise, perhaps the fees could go up in other situations? I think using faction, player activity, and NPC demeanor should all be relevant. Would love to see a bunch of fluctuation in all of these areas as it allows players to strategize and identify market place opportunities. There should definitely be some nice incentives for trading in person. Bypassing the listing fee, auction house cut, and instant delivery are 3 major factors and I think that's more than enough to encourage player to player trading.
There is nothing stopping the population on a server from banding together and choosing to ignore the auction halls, and instead, agree on a central location to sell their wares. I say put regional auction halls in, lets see how they do, if they suck, just refuse to use them. I kind of expect this to happen on the Role Play server for sure.
oneADseven said:I am extremely happy with the direction VR is going with the auction houses. Regional auction houses were used in FFXI and they worked awesome. There were 3 major cities and never at any point was a single one of them considered "the main auction house." Each auction house had it's own economy of sorts and it was commonplace for people to play the markets against each other. In my opinion, auction houses actually open up a ton of trade scenarios. As others have mentioned, I always sent messages to people who were selling something I wanted in an attempt to haggle. This was great because sometimes they would be available to do business right then and there, while other times they were at the bottom of the dungeon. Placing items on the auction house allows people to showcase their wares to the world and then continue on with their day. If someone is satisified with the deal offered, they will buy it on the spot. If they want to haggle, great, you have their information ... simply reach out to them and see what you can do. Information is power and having an auction house functionality in the game equips players with a ton of information.
Never really got into FFXI, but I like how you describe this. That would be fine with me. I wonder why this approach worked in FFXI and not in WoW as someone said that game had regional AH's at launch and that approach failed due to the "main auction house" thing.
vjek said:bigdogchris said: ... Players should be present (in game) to interact for buying/selling."Do any current MMO's outside of Project 1999 impose such a punitive burden on their paying customers?
Having to be at your keyboard to make progress? Crazy how games now days make that a requirement!