letsdance said:oneADseven said:should we be denied the right to enjoy it because other people don't like it?should you be denied instances cause other people don't like them? should be denied dying without penalties because other people don't like it? should you... the list could go on forever. and the answer is: yes. it's impossible to add all features that anyone would like to have in the game, so we'll have to live with the fact that some, or actually all of use, will not see everything exactly to their liking.the only reason why the automation argument holds for pantheon is, that is goes against what many perceived as VRs vision of this game. if this was just any other game that focused on making everything as easy as possible for everyone, of course it needed an auction house. but pantheon wants to be different.
That's fine, but the market economy is much different than instances or any other example that can be narrowed down to catering toward an "individual experience." The economy as a whole will benefit from having auction houses ... there will be many, many, many more transactions because of the AH. The AH will serve as a major plat sink for the game. At the end of the day, I stand my ground in saying that there will still be plenty of player to player trading and that having an AH actually encourages that kind of trade craft. Again, it's all about arming the server with the most information possible so that they can make educated buy/sell decisions. That is the biggest value of having an AH ... allowing players to get a better idea of the "going rate" on goods. Knowledge is half the battle.
I understand people want to relive the EC tunnel experience ... so go make a new one in Pantheon! If there are indeed enough players out there who actually care for that sort of thing, what's stopping them from banding together and making a new one? If your concern is that the majority of people will use the AH instead ... well, sorry? You can't funnel everybody into what you want ... choices are a good thing. I imagine there being large enough of a supply/demand for player to player trading that it will still thrive in Terminus.
Until we see what the development team has in mind, and how the regional auction houses will tie into the many other complicated systems they are working on, it's best that we stop shooting the idea down. Give it a chance to succeed. The decision has been made and it's time to accept it, move on, and if you feel so inclined, get your rear end into testing where you can provide actual feedback on the system as it's designed. I have always been one that is very open to speculation, debating, conceptualizing, etc ... but this isn't the time or place for that right now. The AH thread was the largest thread in the history of this forum. It's been thoroughly combed through and VR went ahead and made the decision that they feel is best for the game as it stands right now. If we get into testing and things don't work out, they will probably be revisited down the road.
AH systems are extremely complicated. The economy as a whole is mega important to the overall health of the game and until we see how auction houses tie into the rest of the world, speculation at this point is redundant. I understand the motives behind promoting player to player trading and I will even try to help champion that cause. I am fine with the auction house markets being somewhat volatile. Every penalty with the auction house is an opportunity for those who trade outside of it. There are so many possibilities to make a fun and interactive trading mini-game in Pantheon and we should all remember that this game is "for gamers by gamers." They get it. Voices are heard. VR cares. They understand that you are passionate about one of your favorite pastimes from EQ. Let's see how this planned compromise shapes out ... but let's also give it the full benefit of the doubt, too. Let's go into this thinking that it has every reason to succeed, not trying to come up with more reasons on why it doesen't even deserve a fair shot.
Laura said:
I thought the announcement made by Brad in the previous stream would make people talk on the official forums, maybe I've missed it? I honestly was disappointed with this design approach. The Auction House in the modern MMORPG design philosophy was a major factor in cutting the player-to-player interaction. It destroyed the reason why people connected in older MMOs like EverQuest. With the Auction House you honestly have no reason to care about the community... you will simply go to an in-game software and search for the best price out there in a single click eliminating possible haggling, bargaining, talking to people, and hence creating a social experience. That lost social opportunity doesn't comply with the theme of Pantheon being a more social MMO.
What do you guys think?
After Brad mentioned they will build both options (one organically, let players build their own hubs - person to person) and a Bazaar style. I was thinking. If you are building an MVP product, why waste resources building something with code first. Let the players try the easy way (using no code) and then get feedback. You should never just build something to build it (it wastes real hours and money).
I am a developer, and the death of software is building to much. (Feature Creep). I would highly recommend to Brad not to build the action house until much later, if ever. Let players tell you that its needed after the basic zone hubs are tested.
Thoughts?
Maybe using the AH would include tax for the item shipping and handling?
Item/shipment weight,the destination of the shipment(how many trading posts the shipment needs to pass) could all factor into taxes
So it could be beneficial to meet player to player,both for sending and receiving end
Demostorm said:Thoughts?
I'd rather not have AH as we've seen it in other games,but I'd be amused if there was a trading network organized by wacky beings like Oompa Loompas
Fluffy said:Maybe using the AH would include tax for the item shipping and handling?
Item/shipment weight,the destination of the shipment(how many trading posts the shipment needs to pass) could all factor into taxes
So it could be beneficial to meet player to player,both for sending and receiving end
Demostorm said:Thoughts?
I'd rather not have AH as we've seen it in other games,but I'd be amused if there was a trading network organized by wacky beings like Oompa Loompas
If you really want to get crazy.
1. Player pays a courier to post a list in another city. The NPC takes 1 to 3 real hours to go to the other city and post it on a board.
2. The other player (the buyer) can read this list) and pay a person to pick up that item (and the NPC travels (real time to that destination) .
3. Now the funny part, the NPC pays you. gets the item and in real time travels back to some location desitnated for trade. This carravan can be attacked by real players and those items can be stolen potentially (not sure about this yet, but it would be hardcore.. Now the tax part could be that you have to hire additional high level gaurds to protect it, or secret mercenaries that travel only at night and not on normal trade routes, taking longer but are more deadly.
/random thoughts haha.
Nice,ship it
I think the players that go the extra mile to trade player to player deserve to be rewarded
*Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.*
In this scenario,the players that want to use courier service because they are too lazy to meet player to player pay extra.
I think it is fair.Meeting with the other player to trade deserves to be rewarded,saving you some coins
Next to keepers we can even have player couriers,if they try to destroy another players item it will be returned to the destination before it departed with the courier player
and the courier player will lose courier privileges
oneADseven said:That's fine, but the market economy is much different than instances or any other example that can be narrowed down to catering toward an "individual experience."i don't see a difference. instances as well as auction houses mean i have less contact to other players and increase the offer of an otherwise limited available game feature. but i was talking about features in general... we can't have all possible features. i would prefer if they put their resources to different parts of the game.
oneADseven said:The economy as a whole will benefit from having auction houses ... there will be many, many, many more transactions because of the AH. The AH will serve as a major plat sink for the game.yes the economy will benefit. but that doesn't mean the game will benefit. i think the game is more interesting if people have to work harder to get their items, be it by getting them themselves from mobs or by having to spend more time with trading.
if the AH is a real money sink is pure speculation at this time. it's primarily shifting money among players. i played lotro alot, so i know at least its AH system quite well - even i traded there. but a brokering fee of 20% or less does not matter in terms of money sink (total money in the economy). and it's very likely that there won't be a fee higher than that.
CrAzD said:The assumption seems to be that someone won't make a website that acts exactly like an auction. Check out poe.trade for example. There's nothing remotely close to an auction house in Path of Exile. Yet there's essentially a full blown third party AH.
That is really kewl how the players made their own auction house on the posting board in PoE. I've checked it out before :)
i tried and wasn't successful in useing poe.trade. but even if you do you still have to meet in person. i like the EQ bazaar, or how people setup shops in SWG as someone mentioned here. it just feels more real than bidding in an auction and getting the item sent to you. but maybe the pantheon AH works differently than the ones i know...
Kelem said: ... That is really kewl how the players made their own auction house on the posting board in PoE. I've checked it out before :)
This is exactly what will happen to Pantheon if what is in game isn't easy to use and desired by the majority. The majority will make the exact same thing.
And just to be clear, a web app that tracks and permits searches for posting date/time, sellers name, item for sale, and price? That's a few hours work as a web developer. Hell if you have an auth framework already, even less.
Which is why... having that, as a minimum in Pantheon will be the threshold. If it doesn't have that, someone will make that. It's 2017, not 1998. :)
It's also why I smile and nod when people are so certain that tedious annoying inconveniences like this will be the distinguishing feature that makes Pantheon the best game evar. No it won't. Players will make their own, and it will be better. /shrug
Not everyone who is opposed to having an AH opposes it because they want to relive the EC Tunnel. Matter of fact I'd bet money that MOST do not want it simply for the Tunnel. I, and I'm sure others, do not want an AH because we want Pantheon to evolutionize the genre. I want the world of Terminus to be handled by the players at every chance possible. I want real people handling the trade system and possibly putting their heads together to figure out how to barter. But even if we don't handle trading wholly our selves then instead of putting in NPCs to handle trading put in tools to permit the PLAYERS to do this. I'm tired of hearing people complain that they do not want to sit and spam trade all day. It is NOT the only option that exists for MMOs which do not contain auction houses. I keep hearing "it's 2017" well you're right and we now have the technology to do SO MUCH MORE with trading items within an MMO.
I guess maybe I just want/expect so much more from an MMO I possibly may spend years of my time in. Some of yous want the devs to implement an AH so you don't have to "waste" your time spamming trade all day. I want the devs to implement tools that allow bartering to be ran strictly by the players as well as tools that protect the players and their goods. It's strange that so many people keep saying they don't want what's been done in every MMO for the last 10 years yet some of yous keep asking for features that have been done in every MMO for the past 10 years.
I'm amazed that this topic is even still going with how the last thread was discussed to death and ended up being closed. I'm responding simply because I was bummed out by the AH news in the last stream. I'll leave this discussion by saying I loved VG and it had an AH system in game so I know I can love Pantheon. But just the same as VG I didn't like the AH system found in that game. I just hope they seriously take a look at how an AH system or a brokerage system could be done right in an MMO and actually design a more robust system for PRF, and I mean EVERYTHING from how global AHs affect the economy to how local AHs affect the economy to how harvesting materials affect the AHs and economy to how unique local markets can be created by creating unique harvesting locales to how brokerage fees affect the economy and bartering to things I'm not even thinking of at the moment. Have fun with this discussion everybody because I'm literally spent on it.
I have been following this conversation for sometime and I may actually have a solution. You need look no further then the system that was used in SWG (Star Wars Galaxy) The system is basic in all honesty. To be clear you could essentially have the best of both worlds, and by this I mean still have an AH with a search function and acts just like an AH as we all know it. This is where it gets intersting:
To solve the issue of having to be logged in all the time, allow each chacracter the ability to create a clone npc of themselves. This clone is literally the NPC who will peddle your wares just like you used to in the old bazaar in EQ. This clone and its wares could be searched via the AH as well. You have two choices at this point as somebody who wants to buy these WARES: You could a. purchase it with a few extra coins for conveince or you could go to the location (bazaar) and find that traders npc (via a handy dandy show me the way function)
Also similer to EQ 1 lets say you are a trader and you are willing to purchase items from other charcaters: Like an offer system so to speak. Lets say I need 2000 spiderweb spindles (made up name) and you have 200 of them. You could goto the bazaar and search anybody who is offering to purchase these items from you and you find the person who needs 2000 and also find he is offering the best reward (coin) to you. You find that traders (clone npc) and sell them to him all while he is away. You get your coin he /she gets their spiderweb spindles and so on.
It doesn't stop there though, you could then still add the roleplay version ie:ec tunnel (so to speak) and still allow people to manually peddle their wares.
What say you? Do you guys think something like this could work?
PS: If somebody has already mentioned this idea I apologize for the double post.
Imagine, if you will, you're on your way out of Thronefast heading out over the bridge and down the Whispering River toward Ru'lan. As you come across the bridge, you happen upon this huge gathering of players. The chat box is filled with the events of the day, some light banter, maybe some political discussion that gets out of hand (make MMOs great again!). There's a smattering of WTS/WTB weaved in, with someone yelling at them to keep that stuff in the trade chat. You flip on your trade channel and it's flowing fast with all sorts of goods for sell, people looking for something unique, maybe a few items you've never heard of before.
Someone has set up a trading post, so you saunter over and casually click to have a look. A UI pops up with a list of goods for sale that people have for sale along with a few buy order requests. You do a couple searches to see what's up, maybe you participate in the chat. Oh yeah!... you have that low-level sword you've been meaning to sell just rotting in your bank. You throw up a quick WTS Newbie Sword of Awesome Dankness 15gp on the trading post, and then continue your browsing.
A few minutes later, you get a trade tell asking if that Dank sword is still available? Sure is... but they only have 8gp... could you cut them a deal? Um... you don't want to come back later and you could use the gold, so sure thing. The buyer clicks the buy button on the interface and you start glowing... j/k. They click on the buy button and follow the indicator to where you are. Dang! The sword is in the bank, remember?! You forgot to grab it on your way out of town, but in all fairness you weren't planning on trading today. No worries, I'll meet you at the bank in Thronefast... oh wait, I'm a badass evil dark elf (hence the need for the dank sword) and they don't like me much in Thronefast. Wait here then and I'll go get it.
Off you trot, back to Thronefast... grab that sword and head back to the bazaar. Maybe that dark elf is still hanging out, waiting, eager to complete the Newbie Set of Dankness (bonus: each kill is its own meme), or maybe he decided to bail and you're back on the board trying to get that sword off your hands again.
-----
For most of us who are against an AH, this is what we imagine trading should and could be. The issues with this method are quite apparent, iboth for and against (more than willing to enumerate them if wanted, it'll be 15gp). Trading should be part of the game, part of the world. It can be fun, social and generate a lot of memorable experiences. This is far more than EC/NF/GF Tunnel nostalgia.
I am thoroughly encouraged by Brad's recent clarification of his AH comments. The devs are well aware of the engaging nature of an organic trading system. I am looking forward to what's in store here as much as the rest of the game.
Brad talked at some point in the last few months about (and he didn't say mino axes, but it's exactly what he was referring to) a player being able to find some loot at one end of the world and then go on an adventure to another part of the world where that item doesn't come from to sell it at a profit. To then hear about auction houses, gives me pause. Something regional could be a good compromise, I just really hope they don't destroy this organic kind of gameplay.
Player to player is fine for single or a few items. But, when you got a lot to sell or buy, it's intolerable.
The main argument against auction houses is that people will use them instead of player to player. So, logically, auction houses are preferred. If people preferred player to player, they would do it.
I am hoping both sides get what they want. You guys can spam chat and be social, I can use the AH and get back to enjoying the game, spam free.
Beefcake said:Player to player is fine for single or a few items. But, when you got a lot to sell or buy, it's intolerable.
The main argument against auction houses is that people will use them instead of player to player. So, logically, auction houses are preferred. If people preferred player to player, they would do it.
I am hoping both sides get what they want. You guys can spam chat and be social, I can use the AH and get back to enjoying the game, spam free.
same argument as automatic groupfinder tools & co. who wants to spam lfg if he can just queue in for an automatic group assembly? who wants to run to a dungeon if he can just get ported to it after the group is complete? who wants to deal with competition if you can just as well get your personal instance? pantheon's feature is that lack of those features.
Archaen said:Imagine, if you will, you're on your way out of Thronefast heading out over the bridge and down the Whispering River toward Ru'lan. As you come across the bridge, you happen upon this huge gathering of players. The chat box is filled with the events of the day, some light banter, maybe some political discussion that gets out of hand (make MMOs great again!). There's a smattering of WTS/WTB weaved in, with someone yelling at them to keep that stuff in the trade chat. You flip on your trade channel and it's flowing fast with all sorts of goods for sell, people looking for something unique, maybe a few items you've never heard of before.
Someone has set up a trading post, so you saunter over and casually click to have a look. A UI pops up with a list of goods for sale that people have for sale along with a few buy order requests. You do a couple searches to see what's up, maybe you participate in the chat. Oh yeah!... you have that low-level sword you've been meaning to sell just rotting in your bank. You throw up a quick WTS Newbie Sword of Awesome Dankness 15gp on the trading post, and then continue your browsing.
A few minutes later, you get a trade tell asking if that Dank sword is still available? Sure is... but they only have 8gp... could you cut them a deal? Um... you don't want to come back later and you could use the gold, so sure thing. The buyer clicks the buy button on the interface and you start glowing... j/k. They click on the buy button and follow the indicator to where you are. Dang! The sword is in the bank, remember?! You forgot to grab it on your way out of town, but in all fairness you weren't planning on trading today. No worries, I'll meet you at the bank in Thronefast... oh wait, I'm a badass evil dark elf (hence the need for the dank sword) and they don't like me much in Thronefast. Wait here then and I'll go get it.
Off you trot, back to Thronefast... grab that sword and head back to the bazaar. Maybe that dark elf is still hanging out, waiting, eager to complete the Newbie Set of Dankness (bonus: each kill is its own meme), or maybe he decided to bail and you're back on the board trying to get that sword off your hands again.
-----
For most of us who are against an AH, this is what we imagine trading should and could be. The issues with this method are quite apparent, iboth for and against (more than willing to enumerate them if wanted, it'll be 15gp). Trading should be part of the game, part of the world. It can be fun, social and generate a lot of memorable experiences. This is far more than EC/NF/GF Tunnel nostalgia.
I am thoroughly encouraged by Brad's recent clarification of his AH comments. The devs are well aware of the engaging nature of an organic trading system. I am looking forward to what's in store here as much as the rest of the game.
Your post accurately describes for me why commerce in Pantheon should have some sort of AH, even if local. There is a line between engaging content that forces players to interact and artificial hurdles that simply require you to throw time at them. Exclusive player-to-player trading is IMHO one of those hurdles. If it worked as you describe, I don't think I'd bother selling - or buying - much in the game. I am sure others would feel the same way, and while it's a perfectly valid model, I think it would be detrimental to the game, rather than beneficial, by removing items from commerce that could otherwise have been traded between players.
Even if the prospect of spending a few hours on a spot trying to sell off your stuff - with no guarantee that you will be able to sell it, mind you - appeals to you, remember that this game will be a community of players. Some may share your interests, some may not. I'm in no way defending a dictatorship of the majority here, but I honestly see no reason to exclude a part of the community from trade, or make trade a chore rather than an activity you look forward to for said part of the community.
On a final note, I wish people could step in other people's shoes for a bit before bringing down the disparaging comments. This is not in reply to @Archaen, but a more general note on the "us vs. them" mentality that always seems to come up when AH is discussed. No, I am not lazy for not being interested in having player to player interactions as the sole form of trade. Nor do I think people who disagree with me are somehow out to make my life hard. We have different interests, different priorities, and the game will be better if it can serve as many of those as possible, even if that does mean compromise.
letsdance said:Beefcake said:Player to player is fine for single or a few items. But, when you got a lot to sell or buy, it's intolerable.
The main argument against auction houses is that people will use them instead of player to player. So, logically, auction houses are preferred. If people preferred player to player, they would do it.
I am hoping both sides get what they want. You guys can spam chat and be social, I can use the AH and get back to enjoying the game, spam free.
same argument as automatic groupfinder tools & co. who wants to spam lfg if he can just queue in for an automatic group assembly? who wants to run to a dungeon if he can just get ported to it after the group is complete? who wants to deal with competition if you can just as well get your personal instance? pantheon's feature is that lack of those features.
Its not the same thing for one reason. There is one part of the game that is less fun then any other. A part of the game we wish we never had to do. Inventory management. When you have been gaming for a week or two and you have piles of crafting goods, blue drops and many other items that need to go. Who wants to spend hours organizing them? Yelling about them? Taking time looking up what’s a fair price for each item? With an AH you can take 5 seconds on each item to see what the going price is and just post it. Then go back to gaming. This has nothing to do with breaking down other systems like group finder. If you don’t see that, you don’t get why people want an AH.
>I am hoping both sides get what they want. You guys can spam chat and be social, I can use the AH and get back to enjoying the game, spam free<
Precisely. It isn't one size fits all. Nanfoodle is correct that selling items "socially" works better for smaller numbers of higher value items. If I have 50 mediocre items that I do not want to just trash "social" selling forces me to either spend far more time than they are worth or just dump them - which hurts other players that actually could have used them. Or if I have a small number of low value items, same thing.
letsdance said:Beefcake said:Player to player is fine for single or a few items. But, when you got a lot to sell or buy, it's intolerable.
The main argument against auction houses is that people will use them instead of player to player. So, logically, auction houses are preferred. If people preferred player to player, they would do it.
I am hoping both sides get what they want. You guys can spam chat and be social, I can use the AH and get back to enjoying the game, spam free.
same argument as automatic groupfinder tools & co. who wants to spam lfg if he can just queue in for an automatic group assembly? who wants to run to a dungeon if he can just get ported to it after the group is complete? who wants to deal with competition if you can just as well get your personal instance? pantheon's feature is that lack of those features.
I hope you're right. It doesn't sound like that's what they're going for anymore tho.
Nanfoodle said:Its not the same thing for one reason. There is one part of the game that is less fun then any other. A part of the game we wish we never had to do. Inventory management. When you have been gaming for a week or two and you have piles of crafting goods, blue drops and many other items that need to go. Who wants to spend hours organizing them? Yelling about them? Taking time looking up what’s a fair price for each item? With an AH you can take 5 seconds on each item to see what the going price is and just post it. Then go back to gaming. This has nothing to do with breaking down other systems like group finder. If you don’t see that, you don’t get why people want an AH.
how much fun any part of the game is, is subjective. a friend of mine loves inventory management. preferably path of exiles style with different item sizes so you have to calculate value per size. altough i did not trade in EQ, i liked the ec tunnel atmosphere. let those get the cash who are willing to spend time for it, and let those level up faster who spend more time with that. the AH fits a bit into the "give everyone everything" mentality.
yes it has nothing to do with a groupfinder, but it does just the same =) as you said, it saves you time for something that would otherwise require time. other examples are fast travel, shared bank, sending items per mail etc.
i'm not opposed to an AH in general, but i see too many small issues, where pantheon moves away from being an EQ style game (which is what i expected), to pleasing the crowds. this is one of them.
dorotea said:"social" selling forces me to either spend far more time than they are worth or just dump themyes, that's a decision! good games are about hard decisions! and not just following the trampled path down to the AH to dump your items mindlessly 1 silver piece cheaper than whatever is currently the cheapest price.