@dorotea
I agree. I believe the issue people experience with AH/brokers is that the world is absolutely littered with them. What made the EC tunnel special was that it was the only effective place to congregate to sell things.
If they do regional brokers by, say having only one broker per continent, that could go a long way towards maintaining that connected feel. When you have a maximum of 2 minutes of travel time to get to a AH/broker at any given time, it scatters the playerbase and reduces that social feel.
If they make sure that the mechanism for it is very scarce, people will be forced to congregate en masse. In addition, there are many ways that the AH/broke UI could function to encourage people to socialize to sell things.
What's most important to me is that we just don't end up in a situation where your chat window is scrolling so fast that you're physically incapable of seeing what is for sale. Having a separate UI to handle this function will reduce chat spam and streamline the process a little.
My personal idea is a hybrid system:
1. List your item, check a box indicating whether or not you're willing to accept tells to haggle. In my opinion, it should be opt-out, meaning the default selection is that you are willing to haggle.
2. Robust options with listings to decide if you want to sell indefinitely at a fixed priced, or for a specified duration with an open bid style.
This seems like a good compromise between the two. I bet the majority of players would check that box, but I can see a few situations where you wouldn't want to.
An option I would like added to region specific Auction Houses is a limit to how many items you can sell at a time at that location.
Perhaps it's x amount a day, week, etc. This would prevent one specific auction house becoming the mandatory one to visit. It also forces travel for people who really are excited about the buying and selling economy.
Maybe this is a bad idea for reasons I haven't thought of yet but let me know.
Liav said:... If they do regional brokers by, say having only one broker per continent, that could go a long way towards maintaining that connected feel. When you have a maximum of 2 minutes of travel time to get to a AH/broker at any given time, it scatters the playerbase and reduces that social feel.
...
What's most important to me is that we just don't end up in a situation where your chat window is scrolling so fast that you're physically incapable of seeing what is for sale. Having a separate UI to handle this function will reduce chat spam and streamline the process a little. ...
Part of the concern is regional AH have been tried in several games over the years, including VG. I would be surprised if we get this style of AH without some way to deal with the problems that have come before. Fortunately, they are very willing to test their ideas and make them work with tweaks/changes through alpha/beta. I'm very optimistic we'll get a system we're for the most part happy with.
One nice thing about the chat window spam is it always felt like it was so busy... the air buzzed with people talking, etc. Personally I'd like to see a system that encourages and enables player interaction on trading rather than moves to the other extreme of no needed interaction at all (today's AH).
I agree with the comments above that socialization should be encouraged and the AH/broker shouldn't be ubiquitous and without significant limitations.
Some of us like bargaining. Some of us hate it and prefer to just list an item and it either sells or does not as the Gods will. Some of us like or tolerate bargaining on expensive items but don't have the time or want to use the time for more trivial items. There are many ways to prevent ALL sales from being on the broker/AH while still permitting broker/AH use.
In other words, ideally the broker/AH system will not drive the tunnel out of business, but few if any of us should want face-to-face negotiation for every sale however trivial to be mandatory.
dorotea said:I agree with the comments above that socialization should be encouraged and the AH/broker shouldn't be ubiquitous and without significant limitations.
Some of us like bargaining. Some of us hate it and prefer to just list an item and it either sells or does not as the Gods will. Some of us like or tolerate bargaining on expensive items but don't have the time or want to use the time for more trivial items. There are many ways to prevent ALL sales from being on the broker/AH while still permitting broker/AH use.
In other words, ideally the broker/AH system will not drive the tunnel out of business, but few if any of us should want face-to-face negotiation for every sale however trivial to be mandatory.
Maybe they can can expand upon the simple "AH listing" and use something like a store front instead? So, while there would be something akin to an AH instead of individual items just listed out by price, or type or whatever it's a simple link and description of the selller. Worth's Weapons for example, with said person being able to list out a description and maybe an example item or two. That way, while I have a presense that doesn't require me to sit and spam "wts xyz" over and over again it still requires an interested buyer to seek me out for the exact item they are looking for.
Doesn't solve all the issues with any of the mechanisms but since VR is trying to build something better than what's come before it's an idea. Although, not sure how it would help the people that aren't really crafters but want to sell something they've found out in the world. That could been anything from a map to a mount and wouldn't be easy to summerize.
People are forgetting that even when the Bazaar was releaed in EQ when the Luclin expansion came out there was still significant amounts of bargaining going on and people interacting with each other. On my server we even had a global chat channel for buying and selling that was always busy and people would often send tells to people trying to sell things to get a better deal or try and trade the item for something else of similar worth.
But the devs haven't even said they will have a Bazaar zone. All they have said is that they will have local auction houses which will increase the amount of interaction between players even more. In addition to that with a local auction house players could make it there business to buy cheap in one region and sell big in a different reason. There will be so much scope for fun with a local auction house system. It won't kill off the need for players to interact to get a better deal. It didn't in EQ when I was playing.
Cromulent said:People are forgetting that even when the Bazaar was releaed in EQ when the Luclin expansion came out there was still significant amounts of bargaining going on and people interacting with each other. On my server we even had a global chat channel for buying and selling that was always busy and people would often send tells to people trying to sell things to get a better deal or try and trade the item for something else of similar worth.
Even in WOW I've had people message me or send a mail asking for a quick deal on something I had posted on the AH, so something along these lines in Pantheon I could see if they have your name posted with the Auction.
mtdewme said:Cromulent said:People are forgetting that even when the Bazaar was releaed in EQ when the Luclin expansion came out there was still significant amounts of bargaining going on and people interacting with each other. On my server we even had a global chat channel for buying and selling that was always busy and people would often send tells to people trying to sell things to get a better deal or try and trade the item for something else of similar worth.
Even in WOW I've had people message me or send a mail asking for a quick deal on something I had posted on the AH, so something along these lines in Pantheon I could see if they have your name posted with the Auction.
Yeah I was also thinking about how to auction house could still be condusive to social interactions if your name is posted with the listing. A high level harvester could pretty easily gain some fame by frequently posting rare crafting materials on the AH for low prices. And then maybe if you are a crafter and buy from him/her often, you could send them a PM to potentially set up some sort of deal on the side to regularly buy things in bulk? I could definitely see that happening.
(But still maybe have an option to disable it if you want your name hidden on the AH for privacy reasons?)
Holy spam if no AH. I mean gold sellers are one thing, but other people shouting even more for selling stuff. Give us an auction house. or some kind of stale. Let us sell stuff without being there. Rather be going out adventuring with friends over trying to get people to buy my crap
I played FFXI for a long time and I thought they nailed the AH. When you opended the AH interface, you didnt see what the asking price of an item is, only the history of past transactions were shown. It was exciting because sometimes you might bid much lower then what it sold for in the past and come away getting a great deal. I hope Pantheon does something similiar to this.
I am not disapointed. This is 2017 not 2001 (and I played back then) Certain things that evolved in MMOs were actually good for the genre and made tedious tasks easier. Market Boards or Auction Houses are one of them. I personally enjoy playing the Auction House/Trading mini-game in MMOs. I am glad there will be one of some type in Pantheon.
So what is to keep everyone that wants to recreate EC tunnel from doing so? If folks want that interaction find a spot, or multiple spots, to set up shop and shout away. No one is being forced to actually use the AH. There are enough old timers here that would more than likely forgo the AHs and just deal with players one on one.
CanadinaXegony said:I like the fact that if we "must" have Auction Houses, that they are regional instead of global. This will divide up those who sit at auction all day long and monopolize prices and the game economy. Namely gold sellers etc. Seen it in too many games.
I fully expect that on most servers, one AH will come out as the clear player favorite and most people will use that one. (Two in total, assuming evil/good races)
everett said:So what is to keep everyone that wants to recreate EC tunnel from doing so? If folks want that interaction find a spot, or multiple spots, to set up shop and shout away. No one is being forced to actually use the AH. There are enough old timers here that would more than likely forgo the AHs and just deal with players one on one.
Well if that is the will of players on a particular server, it will probably happen..organically.
Personally I'm disappointed also by this design decision. Will this stop me from playing Pantheon? Ofcourse not...
Just logged in on P99 , 157ppl in the tunnels at this moment... sure many afk, but lots of ppl trading also. Back in the days... my usual EQ week was like hunting/raiding through the week and then on sunday afternoon I'd head to the commonlands for some trading. I have such nice memories of the uncountable player interactions I had there...
I dont think it has anything to do with being 2017. Any game after eq I played had (local) auction houses and the interaction to get to a transaction mostly just wasnt there. Convenient? Sure. But I never felt that the face to face trading of classic EQ was tedious. On the contrary...
If there had to be a local auction house Id like to see that you can set 'for sale' and 'wanted' entries in it. To contact the person selling/searching you'd still have to send a tell to sort out the transaction and meet face to face to do the trade.
In this case you can keep hunting if you prefer after placing the entry. We would need multiple acces points to the auction house in each region though else we'll end up having 200 ppl standing in front of a control panel or whatever...
Overall I absolutely love the direction Pantheon is going. Trying to not get too hyped... but failing miserable;P
DazL said: ... If there had to be a local auction house Id like to see that you can set 'for sale' and 'wanted' entries in it. To contact the person selling/searching you'd still have to send a tell to sort out the transaction and meet face to face to do the trade.In this case you can keep hunting if you prefer after placing the entry. We would need multiple acces points to the auction house in each region though else we'll end up having 200 ppl standing in front of a control panel or whatever... ...
Just a note, DazL, my comments below aren't directed at you specifically.
Similarly, because I love to quote myself:
vjek said: ...Personally? My theorycrafting principles on the subject of players selling "whatever" are:
- Anyone can sell. You pay a non-refundable minimum of 7% - 10% of the sale price, up front.
- Sales can be up for 14 RL days, max. Limits on qty of concurrent sales per account TBD.
- Unsold items returned via in-game mail or deposited in sellers bank. Purchased items delivered via in-game mail or deposited in buyers bank, unless purchased at the location of sale.
- Buy orders, work orders, WTB, or similar can be posted with all payments (gold, items) held in escrow by the game. Yes, if someone wants to pay you in resources for a crafted item, you should be able to do that via a work orders system.
- Anyone can buy. If you want it delivered, you pay a very steep pro-rated fee based on distance. If you go to the place it's actually for sale, you don't pay anything extra.
- No sales taxes beyond avoidable delivery fees. What you see is what you pay.
- Anyone can search all for-sale locations globally, but only at appropriate locations. (banks, hubs, town centers, NPC guild halls)
- NPC-sold items cannot go on the auction house, ever. Ideally only adventure rewards, crafting related/crafted items, and player created content.
In a larger context, I think that the fees collected for an auction house (and other services provided by that NPC guild) should contribute to the prestige and power of whatever guild hosts the auction house, even if that's a dedicated merchants guild. Player characters that are members of any NPC guild should be offered tangible benefits to membership, including discounts on services, unique abilities/skills, and other perks. Ideally, this would mean that if it's possible to have a dedicated crafter type character/role/class, membership in the merchants guild would be very attractive.
Optionally, it may be that in each village, a different guild hosts, controls or owns a/the auction house, so that NPC guild membership rewards vary geographically. In larger centers, maybe multiple auction houses would make sense. (this presumes the merchants guild doesn't just host/control/own all the auction houses..
TL;DR? Travel to buy, non-refundable fee to list, punitive cost to deliver, continental or global search, escrow agents/NPC guilds act as fences. That will encourage people to meet face to face and/or travel to the location the item is for sale.
Forcing people to be online to sell? All that does is make it so the 'hardcore' have a second account dedicated to selling. Which is perfectly fine, if that's what Visionary Realm wants to encourage. That is the side effect of forcing people to be online to sell. Has historically been proven true in every game that has tried it, EQ1 included (even when they added "offline" sales in EQ1).
It's worth deeply considering the design goals (or what YOU WANT as a player) when looking at a system like this. Is to encourage travel? Is it to force face-to-face interaction? Is it to be a money sink? Is it to encourage low sale prices? Is it to encourage players to sacrifice items/spend time/money to gain favor with NPC guilds? There are a ton of emergent behaviors that will happen when you try to force players into anything. The past is a great teacher, and VR should definitely learn from history in this case. [ EDIT: added link ]
I think the regional AH idea can work, but only in a game like this. Why? Because of factions. Since every city is alligned by factions, than this alone will prevent people from playing the AH. No one would be able to have complete control over the AH because AH would be limited for every player. No single player will be able to be alligned with every faction, ever. There will always be trade offs. Add to this the idea that certain AH would charge players a higher primium for trying purchase an item based on the faction.
Say a human is in a dwarven city and the weapon he wants is listed at 200g. If the human has decent faction with the dwarven race he may only charged a 15% premium for using the AH service; thus making the item cost 230g. Now, say the human is now in the gnomish city and the same weapon he wants is listed at 185g (listed as cheaper than the person who listed the item in the dwarvern city). Now let's assume the human does not have very good reputation amongst the gnomes and he is charged a 30% premium for using the AH service. Now he is paying 240.5g for the item. So even though the item is listed as cheaper in the gnome city, the player may still prefer to purchase the item from the dwarvern city since he will be getting the better deal.
Assume this same senario works for the sellers the same as it does the buyers. The sellers would need to put thought into where they want to sell their items. This would add all sorts of depth to selling/purchasing items. You would really have to think about where you wanted to sell/buy.
Of course there will be some popular factions, but since players are naturally alligned to be more "good" or "evil" there will also be a divide in factions. I think it would also be important to not allow a certain city, say Kingsreach, to have its faction be too easily attainable. Their needs to be sufficient enough incentives for players to want to allign with different factions and not everyone alligning with the same faction.
The only way to truely control the market in this sort of regional AH setting, would be to have a strategic guild play the market. And I think it should be fine for players to engage in this sort of organization. I think the players who do enjoy the AH would love the added depth. I think it would still be complicated enough where a true monopoly would be near impossible to acheive.
Korashi said:I think the regional AH idea can work, but only in a game like this. Why? Because of factions. Since every city is alligned by factions, than this alone will prevent people from playing the AH. No one would be able to have complete control over the AH because AH would be limited for every player. No single player will be able to be alligned with every faction, ever.
Why do you assume this? If I remember correctly in EQ, with due diligence you could max or near max your faction with all major cities. Even Iksar.
Exactly Belgrim, At the start of most games they are stomped out very quickly. It isnt until many of the devs move forward to other projects, does it become an issue for the player base to help report those infractions. Unfortantally we can not have a hall monitor watching every zone for spam.
I am supprised nobody has programmed or mentioned a system to notify devs of "catch phases" in the chat system that someone is trying to sell gold, export players to external websites etc.. Would be a simple module or included in other modules.
Then again it is one more taxing system engine we would have to deal with...
Perhaps authorize guides to also temp boot gold spammers at least, though true, cannot have a hall monitor in every zone. I dont know jack about programming, but something like that might be nice. I was thinking that perhaps in the GM Nexus area they mentioned, perhaps they could pick up every zone's public chat and monitor it from there?