Krixus said:daemonios said:Krixus said:It's interesting that you use the word trading. An AH isn't really trading, it's buying and selling. Semantics, perhaps, but another reason against the AH is that it creats a CASH game, intead of a legit trading ecosystem.
Yes, it's semantics. It's also wrong. You can play the market without an AH just as you can with it. Classifying player to player trade as inherently good and AH trading as inherently bad is a fallacy. An AH facilitates playing the market, but that can be mitigated with additional measures. On the other hand, an AH adds convenience and discoverability, stimulating trade between players.
Malsirian said:High tax on AH items won't deter people from using the AH it'll just drive prices up when trading directly to one another outside the AH imho.
Even if direct player to player trades follow AH prices with sellers pocketing the part of the price that goes into tax in AH trades, as I've said before an AH is actually a powerful money sink which is essential to keep inflation in check. A 40% AH tax that drives prices up by that amount is still better than the inflated prices when not enough gold is removed from the game. And it's not clear to me that it WOULD drive up prices outside the AH, since if there's enough competition AH sellers will eat the tax in exchange for convenience.
You didn't even address what I said and instead started employing your own logical fallacies. If you don't think that an AH creates a market based significantly more around CASH trading, and if you can't see the impacts that can have on the game, then I can't explain it to you.
Classy. I say I think you're wrong, you assume I'm unable to understand you, i.e. I'm stupid. I did understand you. Here's some food for thought: the fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand what you're saying.. You like bartering more than trading for cash. More power to you. But if and when I'm selling something, I don't expect to be able to barter it for something I want all the time. Most times I'll be looking to make some coin to get something else from someone else. I think most transactions, even in player-to-player systems, will come down to cash. There is nothing wrong with that. Cash trades aren't inherently evil, and more importantly, they don't stop players from bartering if they want to.
Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I've stated my case regarding trading and auction houses on this and other threads before and I'm honestly tired of the animosity in some of the comments.
letsdance said:Riahuf22 said:i remember being in EC tunnel and someone wanted an item i was selling and due to death/CR/and being bound in Erudin it took him 2 hours to get to meyes that's one of those memorable experiences that you'll never get in an AH. granted, this one you could probably do without. but there's also positive ones, and you wouldn't value those half as much if things didn't go bad sometimes.
The main point im getting at is that the zones in Patheon by descirption is that they are making higher lvl people be intertwinged with lower lvls meaning that there will be a ton of high lvl mobs with lower level and if they accomplish this that adventuring in geenral will be at least 5x harder than it was in EQ, which is a good thing when it comes to basically everything, but setting up something like an EC tunnel experience, not saying it kills it completely but definatey makes it less feasible than in EQ. Like if your in a newbe zone and 4/5 of it is newbie stuff and than the 1/5 is 20 plus granted this might be off in the corner or something and easily avoided but as progression goes on and your more towards the middle and such like EC was(not counting DE, or Humans), than the travel could be quite unforgiving to basically everyone else due to the traveling of differrent zones and such, and like i said AH is merely the middle man, even if you didnt get a message about an item doesn't ean it wasn't happening like i said i did it all the time and usually got a sell out of it. and again it is Regional AH so its different than anything ive experienced in gaming for me and i see it working, but i always like to see the glass half full.
oneADseven said: We are testing regional auction houses. You can come up with whatever argument you want for or against that decision but the bottom line is that we will be testing them and that they are a part of the current plan. If you want to keep complaining, feel free, but it isn't going to accomplish much more than being a public advertisement of being butt hurt. If you want to make a difference, make sure you are involved during testing because that's when feedback on this topic will truly matter.
This i have to agree with, we have to test it, honestly i see nothing wrong with it due to it beginning the middle ground, honestly in my opinion the higher level regional AH's will have the better loot in the AH's so getting a high lvl item to be seen by a lvl 1 or so charcter could be hard to come by, but i could be wrong we have no idea how it will play out and that is why we need the testing to see if it will work the way it is attended. Either way with the Scaling they are implementing will also effect the way the AH works as well. And i hate to say it again but the only reason why AH killed socialism in an MMO is because we let it killed it if anything, nothing stopped us from sending messages, nothing stopped us from doing anything at anytime, other than people decided to stop doing it on their own. And by the matter of choice can not be blamed by the AH, but by ourselves and only ourselves.
Liav said:So much loaded terminology. :(
These discussions would be a lot better if they didn't go down a slippery slope to powerleveling and other unrelated issues when talking about something.
If you're standing around equipping a new piece of armor, you're "silently clicking" as opposed to asking another player to help you put it on. There isn't a need to require people to talk to eachother to perform every single action in the game.
EQ2 had a quite fine "auction house" in my opinion. It served its purpose well and on numerous occasions, I ended up sending people tells after seeing their names on the broker anyway to try to get a discount. Oftentimes it worked.
I disagree with the theory that different things in a game can't be related to one another.
I have no issue at all comparing an automated trading system, like classic auction houses, to an automated..any other system..like grouping.
As a happy side note, people might still send pms with an automated group system. VR has already discussed their dislike for automated grouping. My theory is that it simply just isn't as social as often as a non automated form.
..which then leads to my biggest complaint should they add anything that looks like a classic automated trading system. It's not my game and if they want to be inconsistent they can. But I will point it out.
I do, however, feel trading is far bigger than equipping your character from your inventory, and so comparing the 2 is moot. This is because trade , even when automated, takes far longer than equipping your character, and requires much more effort. Many people can find it to be enjoyable, whereas I'd be willing to bet the individual who enjoys equipping his char beyond rp is near nonexistant.
Riahuf22 said:oneADseven said: We are testing regional auction houses. You can come up with whatever argument you want for or against that decision but the bottom line is that we will be testing them and that they are a part of the current plan. If you want to keep complaining, feel free, but it isn't going to accomplish much more than being a public advertisement of being butt hurt. If you want to make a difference, make sure you are involved during testing because that's when feedback on this topic will truly matter.This i have to agree with, we have to test it, honestly i see nothing wrong with it due to it beginning the middle ground, honestly in my opinion the higher level regional AH's will have the better loot in the AH's so getting a high lvl item to be seen by a lvl 1 or so charcter could be hard to come by, but i could be wrong we have no idea how it will play out and that is why we need the testing to see if it will work the way it is attended. Either way with the Scaling they are implementing will also effect the way the AH works as well. And i hate to say it again but the only reason why AH killed socialism in an MMO is because we let it killed it if anything, nothing stopped us from sending messages, nothing stopped us from doing anything at anytime, other than people decided to stop doing it on their own. And by the matter of choice can not be blamed by the AH, but by ourselves and only ourselves.
If all they do is regional auction houses, with no further differences from classic AH, then our various complaints about AH's still apply.
I do not believe that just being regional is enough to make automated trading near as social as un-automated trading, despite bringing more people to one spot to do their trading. There is no need for me to test it to have that belief, unless they ADD MORE stuff.
What I'm hoping is that they either decide against auction houses or decide they need to add further details (which I have inferred from Kilsin's comments) in order to make trading a social experience, just like they want various other things, like finding a group, to be.
At the very least, VR is being made aware of people's opinions on the matter.
BeaverBiscuit said:Liav said:So much loaded terminology. :(
These discussions would be a lot better if they didn't go down a slippery slope to powerleveling and other unrelated issues when talking about something.
If you're standing around equipping a new piece of armor, you're "silently clicking" as opposed to asking another player to help you put it on. There isn't a need to require people to talk to eachother to perform every single action in the game.
EQ2 had a quite fine "auction house" in my opinion. It served its purpose well and on numerous occasions, I ended up sending people tells after seeing their names on the broker anyway to try to get a discount. Oftentimes it worked.
I disagree with the theory that different things in a game can't be related to one another.
I have no issue at all comparing an automated trading system, like classic auction houses, to an automated..any other system..like grouping.
As a happy side note, people might still send pms with an automated group system. VR has already discussed their dislike for automated grouping. My theory is that it simply just isn't as social as often as a non automated form.
..which then leads to my biggest complaint should they add anything that looks like a classic automated trading system. It's not my game and if they want to be inconsistent they can. But I will point it out.
I do, however, feel trading is far bigger than equipping your character from your inventory, and so comparing the 2 is moot. This is because trade , even when automated, takes far longer than equipping your character, and requires much more effort. Many people can find it to be enjoyable, whereas I'd be willing to bet the individual who enjoys equipping his char beyond rp is near nonexistant.
Riahuf22 said:oneADseven said: We are testing regional auction houses. You can come up with whatever argument you want for or against that decision but the bottom line is that we will be testing them and that they are a part of the current plan. If you want to keep complaining, feel free, but it isn't going to accomplish much more than being a public advertisement of being butt hurt. If you want to make a difference, make sure you are involved during testing because that's when feedback on this topic will truly matter.This i have to agree with, we have to test it, honestly i see nothing wrong with it due to it beginning the middle ground, honestly in my opinion the higher level regional AH's will have the better loot in the AH's so getting a high lvl item to be seen by a lvl 1 or so charcter could be hard to come by, but i could be wrong we have no idea how it will play out and that is why we need the testing to see if it will work the way it is attended. Either way with the Scaling they are implementing will also effect the way the AH works as well. And i hate to say it again but the only reason why AH killed socialism in an MMO is because we let it killed it if anything, nothing stopped us from sending messages, nothing stopped us from doing anything at anytime, other than people decided to stop doing it on their own. And by the matter of choice can not be blamed by the AH, but by ourselves and only ourselves.
If all they do is regional auction houses, with no further differences from classic AH, then our various complaints about AH's still apply.
I do not believe that just being regional is enough to make automated trading near as social as un-automated trading, despite bringing more people to one spot to do their trading. There is no need for me to test it to have that belief, unless they ADD MORE stuff.
What I'm hoping is that they either decide against auction houses or decide they need to add further details (which I have inferred from Kilsin's comments) in order to make trading a social experience, just like they want various other things, like finding a group, to be.
At the very least, VR is being made aware of people's opinions on the matter.
Again AH does not make the enviroment less socialible, the player base does that within it self, plus you cant say that regional AH will have the same effect or that the same complaints will be just as valid as if it were a classic AH due to its a new concept, only thing im asking is for people to look at things as a glass half full instead of crushing the glass before it is even filled with wter to begin with(in other words not even tested).
Riahuf22 said:adventuring in geenral will be at least 5x harder than it was in EQi doubt that. adventuring was dangerous enough in EQ and from all i've read so far, this game is going to be easier rather than harder. but that's pretty OT for an AH thread :p
There seems to be plenty of people that want an AH to make it successful.
There seems to be plenty of people that want to socially trade to make it successful.
So, it's clear that both can work. The social traders can do their thing and the AH people can do their thing.
And, maybe, the gods forbid, there may be commingling of both.
Beefcake said:There seems to be plenty of people that want an AH to make it successful.
There seems to be plenty of people that want to socially trade to make it successful.
So, it's clear that both can work. The social traders can do their thing and the AH people can do their thing.
And, maybe, the gods forbid, there may be commingling of both.
Exactly. Just because you have one doesn't mean you can't have the other. This is a perfect problem where there is a solution that can please both parties and maybe people who start off wanting an AH will see the benefits of social trading and make the switch. Likewise people who prefer social trading might see the benefits of an AH and start using that instead.
Cromulent said:Beefcake said:There seems to be plenty of people that want an AH to make it successful.
There seems to be plenty of people that want to socially trade to make it successful.
So, it's clear that both can work. The social traders can do their thing and the AH people can do their thing.
And, maybe, the gods forbid, there may be commingling of both.
Exactly. Just because you have one doesn't mean you can't have the other. This is a perfect problem where there is a solution that can please both parties and maybe people who start off wanting an AH will see the benefits of social trading and make the switch. Likewise people who prefer social trading might see the benefits of an AH and start using that instead.
First and foremost, allowing people to do things in too many different ways splits the community up too much for the sort of social atmosphre VR seeks for Pantheon. Imagine how lonely a game would be at level 1 if there were 100 different level 1 areas to choose from, even if the game had lots of players.
Secondly, when it comes to an automated trade system allowing people to choose not to use it:
Most of the time players see a game like an mmo, and for whatever reasons (monkey see monkey do, competitivity, keeping up with friends/guildm etc.) they feel a NEED to seek out efficient methods to play the game(easy, fast, and/or has the most return). Thus, the most efficient means to accomplish something is what most players will do. Even players who argue tooth and nail for no AH will feel they have to use it if it turns out to be the most efficient form of trade.
Again, these players will only use the AH if it is the most efficient form of trade. I am not arguing that the AH can't be made non automated, or something else I haven't seen, and thus no more efficient than haggling in the tunnel, and even promote the desirable behaviors found in the EQ tunnel. I am assuming when you say "AH" without expounding on the term further, you are talking about the automated, ultra efficient AH's we see in many games (sorry if I'm wrong but it really does sound that way).
I am aruing that not many players find much point in continuing to play a social relationships focused mmo when noone is, or very few people are, doing whatever it is they are doing. The majority of players in this situation will either quit the game or have to start doing what everyone else is doing.
Examples:
Statements similar to your statement:
Please note that automated fast travel, auto group systems, auto leveling systems, and worldwide chat systems have already been determined to not fit in with Pantheon's tenants.
BeaverBiscuit said:Cromulent said:Beefcake said:There seems to be plenty of people that want an AH to make it successful.
There seems to be plenty of people that want to socially trade to make it successful.
So, it's clear that both can work. The social traders can do their thing and the AH people can do their thing.
And, maybe, the gods forbid, there may be commingling of both.
Exactly. Just because you have one doesn't mean you can't have the other. This is a perfect problem where there is a solution that can please both parties and maybe people who start off wanting an AH will see the benefits of social trading and make the switch. Likewise people who prefer social trading might see the benefits of an AH and start using that instead.
First and foremost, allowing people to do things in too many different ways splits the community up too much for the sort of social atmosphre VR seeks for Pantheon. Imagine how lonely a game would be at level 1 if there were 100 different level 1 areas to choose from, even if the game had lots of players.
Secondly, when it comes to an automated trade system allowing people to choose not to use it:
Most of the time players see a game like an mmo, and for whatever reasons (monkey see monkey do, competitivity, keeping up with friends/guildm etc.) they feel a NEED to seek out efficient methods to play the game(easy, fast, and/or has the most return). Thus, the most efficient means to accomplish something is what most players will do. Even players who argue tooth and nail for no AH will feel they have to use it if it turns out to be the most efficient form of trade.
Again, these players will only use the AH if it is the most efficient form of trade. I am not arguing that the AH can't be made non automated, or something else I haven't seen, and thus no more efficient than haggling in the tunnel, and even promote the desirable behaviors found in the EQ tunnel. I am assuming when you say "AH" without expounding on the term further, you are talking about the automated, ultra efficient AH's we see in many games (sorry if I'm wrong but it really does sound that way).
I am aruing that not many players find much point in continuing to play a social relationships focused mmo when noone is, or very few people are, doing whatever it is they are doing. The majority of players in this situation will either quit the game or have to start doing what everyone else is doing.
Examples:
- Everquest, where players moved from the tunnel to the bazaar, leaving everyone who prized the merits of the tunnel to either be extremely inefficient (they had far less people to trade with their way as folks moved to the bazaar strategy), or head over to the bazaar themselves, whether or not they like it.
- WoW, and many similar mmos, where the grand majority of players used the automated auction house, the fast travel system, the auto grouping system, etc, leaving everyone who wouldn't use them far behind.
Statements similar to your statement:
- Even if we add an automated fast travel system, players can still choose to travel normally and explore as they wish. Thus Pantheon should have an automated fast travel system.
- Even if we add an auto group system, and a worldwide chat system, players can still choose to use local chat to get groups. Thus Pantheon should have auto group systems and worldwide chats.
- Even if we add an auto leveling system, players can still choose to level as they would in a normal mmo. Thus Pantheon should have an auto leveling system.
Please note that automated fast travel, auto group systems, auto leveling systems, and worldwide chat systems have already been determined to not fit in with Pantheon's tenants.
This is what always gets me about the people arguing for social selling. If it was so good then everyone would do it regardless of whether there was an auction house or not. The fact that people stop doing it when an auction house is introduced just goes to prove what a massive pain in the arse it is and that as soon as something even slightly better comes along everyone stops doing it and it is only the hardcore few that hang around to keep doing it.
The EQ Bazaar wasn't even a proper auction house. You had to be online to sell anything and people still did a lot of communication to try and sell things. There was even a server wide chat channel for buying and selling on my server. But even though the Bazaar was massively limited in its capabilities people still stopped using EC tunnel. I have to conclude that it was because they thought the Bazaar was better and that having a chat channel dedicated to selling was a much more convient thing to have. When the Bazaar came out I don't remember lots of people complaining about it.
Cromulent said:This is what always gets me about the people arguing for social selling. If it was so good then everyone would do it regardless of whether there was an auction house or not. The fact that people stop doing it when an auction house is introduced just goes to prove what a massive pain in the arse it is and that as soon as something even slightly better comes along everyone stops doing it and it is only the hardcore few that hang around to keep doing it.
The EQ Bazaar wasn't even a proper auction house. You had to be online to sell anything and people still did a lot of communication to try and sell things. There was even a server wide chat channel for buying and selling on my server. But even though the Bazaar was massively limited in its capabilities people still stopped using EC tunnel. I have to conclude that it was because they thought the Bazaar was better and that having a chat channel dedicated to selling was a much more convient thing to have. When the Bazaar came out I don't remember lots of people complaining about it.
"Seems like everything I like will make me sick or poor or fat" (David Lee Roth "Two fools a minute")
The MMO community has repeatadly proven that what they "like" is not nessasarly whats good for them. WHAT WE LIKE, choose to use, choose not to complain about, find more convient, etc. is what got us the games we have today that nobody want's to play
I think based on that it should have very little weight in the decision. The decision needs to be based on what it ADDS or DETRACTS from the game, The Social aspects of the EC Tunnel method GIVES a lot to the game for a good many people, (not me) I belive the Devs want to retain social aspects in this gave. I think it a mistake to remove it without replacing that same social aspect with something as good if not better.
letsdance said:Riahuf22 said:adventuring in geenral will be at least 5x harder than it was in EQi doubt that. adventuring was dangerous enough in EQ and from all i've read so far, this game is going to be easier rather than harder. but that's pretty OT for an AH thread :p
Adventuring in EQ wasn't all that dangerous though the zones were pretty linear for instanced: Qeynos 1,5, Qeynos hills 3-8, West Karana 12-25 maybe but everything was easily avoided, North Karana basically close to same levels with a few exceptiions and again easily avoided, and same for East pretty much too, High Pass Hold, this was your hardest zone to get through and at lvl 1 or something low you probably aren't going to make it, Kithicor Forest, high lvl stuff, but walk around zone edges and you'll be fine, West Commonlands, Low level and safe yet again, East Commonlands Your basically there ow so happy selling or buying to your hearts desire. What i was getting at is lets simply take East Commonalnds as an example is only a 5-12 zone or so but in pantheon it could be a 5-12, 20-30, 40-44 zone. so that in itself make traveling so much harder just thinking about it make me shiver when it comes trying to meet someone across many zones, even at max level you have to watch your toes, i know this is what pantheon wants to achieve and its great, but for cetain players traveling to you could be simply out of the question, and like they said its regional so the only way low level characters are going to get high level item is if a high level character put it in a low level AH
Beefcake said:There seems to be plenty of people that want an AH to make it successful.
There seems to be plenty of people that want to socially trade to make it successful.
So, it's clear that both can work. The social traders can do their thing and the AH people can do their thing.
And, maybe, the gods forbid, there may be commingling of both.
But what i am gathering is people want it "Forced" upon them. Which is a no no by anyone these days. Nobody is going to not have an already built system in the majority of games disappear to allow an "EC" tunnel perference only. The AH first, then if you want to custom sell your wares you have auction channel.
Crazzie said:But what i am gathering is people want it "Forced" upon them. Which is a no no by anyone these days. Nobody is going to not have an already built system in the majority of games disappear to allow an "EC" tunnel perference only. The AH first, then if you want to custom sell your wares you have auction channel.
Hate to point out the obvious, but isn't starting with an AH also "forcing" something on most players? There have been multiple people in this thread that have commented that they hate to see auction spam and will turn it off at first oppurtunity. If you do not use an AH that is available, you will not ever have that playerbase as a potential market for your goods. You'll also never see anything they have for sale.
I'm not amped about the localized AH system that VR is going to test. But I think it's about the only way you can try to reach a compromise without fully forcing one stance or the other across the board.
Feyshtey said:Crazzie said:But what i am gathering is people want it "Forced" upon them. Which is a no no by anyone these days. Nobody is going to not have an already built system in the majority of games disappear to allow an "EC" tunnel perference only. The AH first, then if you want to custom sell your wares you have auction channel.
Hate to point out the obvious, but isn't starting with an AH also "forcing" something on most players? There have been multiple people in this thread that have commented that they hate to see auction spam and will turn it off at first oppurtunity. If you do not use an AH that is available, you will not ever have that playerbase as a potential market for your goods. You'll also never see anything they have for sale.
I'm not amped about the localized AH system that VR is going to test. But I think it's about the only way you can try to reach a compromise without fully forcing one stance or the other across the board.
I guess that I just cannot agree with some people's definition of FORCED. To me, FORCED means there is no choice, only one way to something.
If there is no AH, you are FORCED to do player trades socially. There is no other option.
If there is an AH, people have a CHOICE. No one is FORCED to use the AH. No one is FORCED to do social trading. There are trade-offs both ways.
Using the AH, you gain a larger potential market, but may have to pay a tax, wait for your items/coin, and have to compete with a more aggressive market.
Using the social method, you have access to a smaller market, but you get the experience of being social, No taxes, and can get items right away.
If you prefer one way, and are not satisfied, you can CHOOSE, the other way for the day.
If people REALLY want to social trade, they will do so regardless of the existence of an AH. If they don't, then it wasn't as important to them as they said it was.
An AH does not stop social trading. It just stops those that don't want it from having to socialize with people that they don't want to socialize with.
If I want to socialize while trading, I can go to a farmer's market. But, just because someone wants to trade with me socially does not mean that I should have to listen to their unwanted spam calls.
Do you sit through every presentation that a telemarketer calls you for? I sure don't. I socialize with people I choose to socialize with. I should not be forced to socialize with you just because you want to socialize with me.
Feyshtey said:Crazzie said:But what i am gathering is people want it "Forced" upon them. Which is a no no by anyone these days. Nobody is going to not have an already built system in the majority of games disappear to allow an "EC" tunnel perference only. The AH first, then if you want to custom sell your wares you have auction channel.
Hate to point out the obvious, but isn't starting with an AH also "forcing" something on most players? There have been multiple people in this thread that have commented that they hate to see auction spam and will turn it off at first oppurtunity. If you do not use an AH that is available, you will not ever have that playerbase as a potential market for your goods. You'll also never see anything they have for sale.
I'm not amped about the localized AH system that VR is going to test. But I think it's about the only way you can try to reach a compromise without fully forcing one stance or the other across the board.
Ah by itself is forced, Ec tunnel Auction channel by itself is forced. To have both systems, the choice of the player then nothing is forced. Back in EQ we where forced with the first system which was EC tunnel auction house. Yrs later, we adapted to the AH system in POP. We still had both, so nothing was forced on anyone.
To take an MMO and Force an EC tunnel trading system only is forcing the population to go backwards to the 90's when in the 2000's every other MMO out there changed to an AH and Auction system if you choose to do so.
From reading some of these posts, i understood people perfer it forced "EC tunnel" type trading.
Crazzie said:Feyshtey said:Crazzie said:But what i am gathering is people want it "Forced" upon them. Which is a no no by anyone these days. Nobody is going to not have an already built system in the majority of games disappear to allow an "EC" tunnel perference only. The AH first, then if you want to custom sell your wares you have auction channel.
Hate to point out the obvious, but isn't starting with an AH also "forcing" something on most players? There have been multiple people in this thread that have commented that they hate to see auction spam and will turn it off at first oppurtunity. If you do not use an AH that is available, you will not ever have that playerbase as a potential market for your goods. You'll also never see anything they have for sale.
I'm not amped about the localized AH system that VR is going to test. But I think it's about the only way you can try to reach a compromise without fully forcing one stance or the other across the board.
Ah by itself is forced, Ec tunnel Auction channel by itself is forced. To have both systems, the choice of the player then nothing is forced. Back in EQ we where forced with the first system which was EC tunnel auction house. Yrs later, we adapted to the AH system in POP. We still had both, so nothing was forced on anyone.
To take an MMO and Force an EC tunnel trading system only is forcing the population to go backwards to the 90's when in the 2000's every other MMO out there changed to an AH and Auction system if you choose to do so.
From reading some of these posts, i understood people perfer it forced "EC tunnel" type trading.
I really dont understand why ppl bring in the 'go backwards to the 90's' in these arguments. So the 2000s and 2010s were so much better concerning MMORPGs? I thought the whole point of Pantheon was to bring back some of the magic that the first generation MMORPGs brought us. For me, personally... the EC tunnel way of trading was one of those things I deerly miss! An auction house for me is in the same category as portals all over the place, dungeon finders, etc. etc.
Sure it was a pain in the ass sometimes... but so was finding a group sometimes... so was travelling sometimes...
As I mentionned earlier... An AH wont stop me from playing Pantheon... but I see a missed opportunity here. Let the players sort it out themselves...
Oh well.. we'll see during test phases how it works out... But I got a feeling that trade will involve a LOT less human interaction than I would have liked... TIme will tell...
Amsai said: How can I word an answer that pisses off both those for and against the AH? Because Im really sick of this thread.
I have tried, but basically ...
We're testing regional auction houses. The decision has been made. If you want to champion a specific cause as it relates to these regional auction houses and how they will be implemented, you should probably get involved with testing as it will be an outlet for you to share valuable feedback. Complaining about things at this stage of development isn't helping anything. You have no idea what the master plan is. You have no idea how VR's vision of regional auction houses will mesh with other systems that they also plan on implementing. The original AH thread was the largest thread on this forum. If people want to share ideas or potential solutions that can compliment regional auction houses, that would be fine. If people want to keep spelling out the end of the world or how this planned mechanic is going to ruin their social immersion, they need to get a grip. We haven't seen a single instance of their planned system in action and until we do, the whining needs to stop. We should be grateful that this information was released and if we want to see more meaningful updates that capture important progress the team is making, we need to conduct ourselves accordingly.
There is nothing wrong with trying to provide good memories of a different system. There is nothing wrong with providing ideas or concepts for the current planned system. Shooting the idea down and labeling this system as a failure before seeing it in action, though? That's a mistake. Accusing VR of being contradictive in their vision, or not delivering on an important aspect of "The Pantheon Difference" -- how would you know? Have you been in the game? Do you have insider access to information that hasn't been shared with the rest of the community that helped you arrive to that conclusion? We need to give VR the benefit of the doubt on this and base our judgment/feedback on the actual system while we test it. There is no need to get butt hurt over something that could very well end up exceeding all of our expectations. Their vision could be the ultimate compromise, one that promotes a healthy economy and gives multiple playstyles an opportunity to enjoy the game. We are here for a reason ... that reason is because we support VR and their vision ... so let's not ruin it for ourselves by blasting samples of their vision as they release them. I am an information sponge and look forward to more content releases as they become available ... VR would probably be more inclined to share that kind of information if people responded in a civil manner.
Nether side is "forced" to do anything. There are always the merchants, they will gladly purchase most anything you offer.
Besides that, I find this "forced" argument to be as over rated and hand holding as the "what the players want" argument. This is VR's game and I hope they pay little to no attention to players not wanting to be FORCED into doing something. And set there game play model at what they see meets their vision... I expact some will feel "forced" no matter what path they take (there is always the merchants) please VR do not cater to such nonsense and compromise your vision for fear of "forceing" somebody....Force away!.
daemonios said:Krixus said:daemonios said:Krixus said:It's interesting that you use the word trading. An AH isn't really trading, it's buying and selling. Semantics, perhaps, but another reason against the AH is that it creats a CASH game, intead of a legit trading ecosystem.
Yes, it's semantics. It's also wrong. You can play the market without an AH just as you can with it. Classifying player to player trade as inherently good and AH trading as inherently bad is a fallacy. An AH facilitates playing the market, but that can be mitigated with additional measures. On the other hand, an AH adds convenience and discoverability, stimulating trade between players.
Malsirian said:High tax on AH items won't deter people from using the AH it'll just drive prices up when trading directly to one another outside the AH imho.
Even if direct player to player trades follow AH prices with sellers pocketing the part of the price that goes into tax in AH trades, as I've said before an AH is actually a powerful money sink which is essential to keep inflation in check. A 40% AH tax that drives prices up by that amount is still better than the inflated prices when not enough gold is removed from the game. And it's not clear to me that it WOULD drive up prices outside the AH, since if there's enough competition AH sellers will eat the tax in exchange for convenience.
You didn't even address what I said and instead started employing your own logical fallacies. If you don't think that an AH creates a market based significantly more around CASH trading, and if you can't see the impacts that can have on the game, then I can't explain it to you.
Classy. I say I think you're wrong, you assume I'm unable to understand you, i.e. I'm stupid. I did understand you. Here's some food for thought: the fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand what you're saying.. You like bartering more than trading for cash. More power to you. But if and when I'm selling something, I don't expect to be able to barter it for something I want all the time. Most times I'll be looking to make some coin to get something else from someone else. I think most transactions, even in player-to-player systems, will come down to cash. There is nothing wrong with that. Cash trades aren't inherently evil, and more importantly, they don't stop players from bartering if they want to.
Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I've stated my case regarding trading and auction houses on this and other threads before and I'm honestly tired of the animosity in some of the comments.
Then why don't you actually address the points I make? If you disagree, you could perhaps detail why. But instead you actually demonstrate that you don't understand my point. It's not about me liking bartering, it's about the repurcutions of a purely cashed based system. If people actually trade items, what kind of impact do you think that has on gold farming? Auction houses create a cash only economy that falls right into the hands of the gold sellers.
Cromulent said:Beefcake said:There seems to be plenty of people that want an AH to make it successful.
There seems to be plenty of people that want to socially trade to make it successful.
So, it's clear that both can work. The social traders can do their thing and the AH people can do their thing.
And, maybe, the gods forbid, there may be commingling of both.
Exactly. Just because you have one doesn't mean you can't have the other. This is a perfect problem where there is a solution that can please both parties and maybe people who start off wanting an AH will see the benefits of social trading and make the switch. Likewise people who prefer social trading might see the benefits of an AH and start using that instead.
I am for AH to start with but this whole, AH is not social is just not true. AH lists the names of the people selling. I used to send people in game mail and tells all the time. That time dont sell, COD me and I will buy it for X amount. When I needed lots of ore, I used to look at who would post up ore on the AH all the time. I would send them a tell and haggle. Get them to COD me less the cost of the AH tax. Or buy in bulk get an even better deal. I have been playing P99 as of late and of corse I have ended up in EC yelling for what I need and I am spending as much time selling and buying as I am playing the game. I think people are forgetting the cost of this.
oneADseven said:Amsai said: How can I word an answer that pisses off both those for and against the AH? Because Im really sick of this thread.
I have tried, but basically ...
We're testing regional auction houses. The decision has been made. If you want to champion a specific cause as it relates to these regional auction houses and how they will be implemented, you should probably get involved with testing as it will be an outlet for you to share valuable feedback. Complaining about things at this stage of development isn't helping anything. You have no idea what the master plan is. You have no idea how VR's vision of regional auction houses will mesh with other systems that they also plan on implementing. The original AH thread was the largest thread on this forum. If people want to share ideas or potential solutions that can compliment regional auction houses, that would be fine. If people want to keep spelling out the end of the world or how this planned mechanic is going to ruin their social immersion, they need to get a grip. We haven't seen a single instance of their planned system in action and until we do, the whining needs to stop. We should be grateful that this information was released and if we want to see more meaningful updates that capture important progress the team is making, we need to conduct ourselves accordingly.
There is nothing wrong with trying to provide good memories of a different system. There is nothing wrong with providing ideas or concepts for the current planned system. Shooting the idea down and labeling this system as a failure before seeing it in action, though? That's a mistake. Accusing VR of being contradictive in their vision, or not delivering on an important aspect of "The Pantheon Difference" -- how would you know? Have you been in the game? Do you have insider access to information that hasn't been shared with the rest of the community that helped you arrive to that conclusion? We need to give VR the benefit of the doubt on this and base our judgment/feedback on the actual system while we test it. There is no need to get butt hurt over something that could very well end up exceeding all of our expectations. Their vision could be the ultimate compromise, one that promotes a healthy economy and gives multiple playstyles an opportunity to enjoy the game. We are here for a reason ... that reason is because we support VR and their vision ... so let's not ruin it for ourselves by blasting samples of their vision as they release them. I am an information sponge and look forward to more content releases as they become available ... VR would probably be more inclined to share that kind of information if people responded in a civil manner.
Are you claiming that standalone localized AHs could work as a compromise for those of us who want something more social than a standard AH? If so, I'm curious to hear what you have to say on the matter. I can't wrap my head around it.
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When it comes to standalone localized AHs; I can't help but think of WoW's Dalaran. Basically, the majority of WoW's extremely top heavy community ended up moving to the in game city Dalaran, because it was put in a good location for the questers/groupers/raiders and was very convenient as well for city work, like trade.
If WoW had made all of their AHs local at that time, would it really have made that much of a difference?
In Pantheon, all we know about the AHs is that they may be localized. It's decently safe to say that players in this situation will have 1 or 2 places EVERYONE goes to do their trading (as they did with the tunnel). At that point, regarding likely socialization between players, what makes it all that different from globalized trading beyond cutting a few people out?
Even if players see the sheer number of folks next to them as they sit in the trade hub, I feel Dalaran has already proven these players won't often take the opportunity to parrot their goods if the AH does it better than they can.
I suppose you feel like I'm bashing something before testing it. However, IMO this is a "you don't need to test sand paper to figure it probably smooths surfaces" sort of deal, at least until VR releases more information on how their AH's will work.
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As a side note, I don't see a problem with commenting on the information VR has chosen to share with us, rather than waiting around to get the whole picture. If they wanted us to wait that long, I feel like this forum wouldn't have been made. Kilsin himself commented earlier on this thread saying the localized AH is not a confirmed thing or finished thing. Anything I say now might effect the choices they make regarding trade.
The closer the game is to how it "should be", by VR's standards, before testing, the faster and easier testing will go. I believe this is partially accomplished by constructive criticisms, arguments, and ideas of the game's future players being considered by VR.
In fact, some things, such as class race combinations, were decided and set in stone until testing before we even commented on them. This shows I need to comment on as many things that I care about as I can as soon as I can before those things get set in stone.
My Stance:
I do not feel that a standalone automated trading system, localized or not, is any more consistant with VR's tenants for Pantheon than a standalone automated grouping system is, localized or not. These things remove much of the NEED for socialization, whether some may choose to socialize or not while using them.
If Pantheon does not end up with an AH/bazaar/etc., I hope they somehow involve the players in such a way that the AH lovers can enjoy, or at least get through, selling their goods, for more money than an npc is willing to pay.
I like the idea of somehow leasing an item to a player. That player could then try to sell it for you. If succesful he could either pay you an amount you agreed on before he sold it, or give you a large percentage of what he made. You could tag the item as "leased". This tag would force the seller to pay up upon completing the trade, to the original owner's bank. It might even allow certain pre determined trades to be made. Changes to the deal on the fly, complete with command promps, could also be possible if both players agree. Many more details could be worked out as issues were spotted.
If Pantheon does end up with an AH/bazaar/etc. , I hope VR changes whatever system they use in such a creative way that it promotes the desirable behaviors all of us "tunnel supporters" know and love. Personally, I think this can be achieved by somehow un-automating these systems. Perhaps players could run the auctioning somehow with the leasing strategy I've mentioned.
Crazzie said:Ah by itself is forced, Ec tunnel Auction channel by itself is forced. To have both systems, the choice of the player then nothing is forced. Back in EQ we where forced with the first system which was EC tunnel auction house. Yrs later, we adapted to the AH system in POP. We still had both, so nothing was forced on anyone.
To take an MMO and Force an EC tunnel trading system only is forcing the population to go backwards to the 90's when in the 2000's every other MMO out there changed to an AH and Auction system if you choose to do so.
From reading some of these posts, i understood people perfer it forced "EC tunnel" type trading.
I don't see where the forcing argument is coming from. To me even the game tenants and the fact that this is a hack and slash mmo forces people to play the game in a certain way. Adding options forces people to consider and maybe use those options, especially if everyone else is using those options.
By the standards of many people here, adding a system into Pantheon where you can buy experience potions for real money wouldn't force you to buy experience potions for real money. Yet VR won't add such a system.
I don't think people should be forced to do things with less benefits compared to other similar things; I can't understand feeling it is wrong ONLY becuase those people are forced to do SOMETHING. I can't understand the idea that delibaretly making these things available to people, and tempting them with these things, is good because these things can technically not be chosen.
In short, I do not feel that whether or not something forces you to do something, or gives you options, is a valid standalone argument. If something is determined by VR to be the best means of inter player trade, I am confident I will be forced to do it in Pantheon.